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Page 48 of 48 < 1 2 46 47 48
Topic Options
#2390021 - 02/23/15 03:36 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
Well, yes, the more upscale ones have DSP blocks, but these are more like DSP ALU blocks, not DSP processors per se. One would need a local register set, a fetch and branch mechanism, etc. cobbled from the FPGA fabric in order to have a full blown DSP.

Interesting that the Arria has floating point. I don't keep tabs on the high end devices much as they are super expensive. Doing audio, often fixed point is a better fit as resolution for a given bit count is higher, and truncation noise and the like are constant rather than changing with the data exponents. Though floating point can make the algorithms much easier to describe and implement, with less chance of under / overflow.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

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#2390143 - 02/23/15 09:25 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Trevor H. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/23/15
Posts: 2
I would think something like the Xilinx zynq 7 series SoC (http://www.xilinx.com/publications/prod_mktg/zynq7000/Zynq-7000-combined-product-table.pdf) or better yet the upcoming zynq ultrascale SoC (http://www.xilinx.com/publications/prod_mktg/zynq-ultrascale-plus-product-selection-guide.pdf) would be ideal for an upper mid-range to high end digital piano. If you can do reasonable volumes you can get zynq 7010's and zynq ultrascales for just a bit over $10 a unit.

If you had a zynq ultrascale for ~$10-$15 you would have
* Some 240 DSP 48 slices for implementing custom algorithms and some 80K logic cells to tie it all together along with over 5 MB of block RAM for all of the srams, fifo's, buffers, etc. This is enough hardware that you could do some pretty complex custom algorithms
* 2 - R5 processors at 600 MHz for servicing all of the key press interrupts and stuff. You would probably want to run an RTOS on these cores and keep them for hard real time events.
* 4 - A-53 cores at at 1300 MHz complete with neon SIMD. This should be able to run your displays, maybe linux, and have lots of cycles left over for memory management and whatever algorithm's you have that are too much of a pain to put directly in hardware
* 1 - Mali 400 which could easily be a fantastic display driver or if you are willing to do some code optimization maybe you could run some additional algorithms out of it. I'm not sure that you could really get things parallel enough to properly use the Mali but it is there.
* Plus you could have a 64-bit memory interface to DRAM if you are willing to spend the money.

I feel like for about $30 (after including RAM and a good sized flash memory) you could have a digital piano that blows away most everything that is out there right now. And I'm sure $30 is a substantial increase to their current silicon BOM cost but man it doesn't feel unreasonable for them to put that kind of money into a product that retails for well over $1000.

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#2390233 - 02/24/15 04:37 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
mabraman Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/24/12
Posts: 474
Loc: Valencia, Spain
I see it all clear now, thanks guys.
sick
_________________________
Learning piano from scratch since September, 2012.
Kawai ES7.Kawai K-200

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#2390276 - 02/24/15 08:35 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: Trevor H.]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By Trevor H.
If you can do reasonable volumes you can get zynq 7010's and zynq ultrascales for just a bit over $10 a unit.

Wow, that's a lot of FPGA at incredible pricing! Electronics will completely run you over even if you're doing your level best to keep up with everything new coming out, the pace is insane.

Originally Posted By Trevor H.
I feel like for about $30 (after including RAM and a good sized flash memory) you could have a digital piano that blows away most everything that is out there right now. And I'm sure $30 is a substantial increase to their current silicon BOM cost but man it doesn't feel unreasonable for them to put that kind of money into a product that retails for well over $1000.

I haven't worked in the DP industry (though for unemployment I sent my resume to most DP and effects manufacturers) so I can only speculate, but I imagine they lack the in-house expertise to utilize FPGAs in that capacity. And even if they do the NRE is probably too onerous, especially given the general public's seeming willingness to continue to buy dumb loopers for way too much scratch.

The intersection of crackerjack HDL'er / DSP guru / UI & controller designer / musical instrument builder / pianist etc. is likely exceeding small to perhaps non-existent. And it's not like corporations go out of their way to attract free thinkers and other unmanagable sorts, they want sheep who can code a bit and need medical insurance.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2390371 - 02/24/15 12:47 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Trevor H. Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/23/15
Posts: 2
I would love to see something like pianoteq optimized into something like a zynq and sold as a piano in a box. I'm sure it makes no business sense because it is targeting a small subset of a small market and pianoteq already runs on fairly modest hardware that people already own. I also can't imagine they have any interest in being a hardware vendor but man something like a pianoteq piano in a box mixed with something like the Kawai VPC1 could be a really cool combination.

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#2390414 - 02/24/15 02:23 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
Hendrik42 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 60
Loc: Germany
I would love to see Jony Ive to do a mass market DP. I don't need a car :-)
_________________________
Kawai CN-35. The daughter wanted a piano, so we got one. Now we'll see who learns faster ;-)

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#2391581 - 02/27/15 09:17 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
BusyWait Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 21
I've made recordings of the DPBSD v2 with a Roland RP401R, played off a USB stick, and played via USB MIDI control. Also I used Addictive Keys Studio Grand and Upgright VSTi to render the MIDI file in a DAW.

Are any of those interesting? Can you remind me where the upload instructions are? Or, can I just share a dropbox link to the 44.1kHz 24bit .wav files?


Edited by BusyWait (02/27/15 10:21 AM)
_________________________
Regards,
Steven
---
(Re)beginner
Roland DP401R

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#2391600 - 02/27/15 10:10 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
Dropbox link would be fine Steven. Thanks!
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2391632 - 02/27/15 11:10 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
BusyWait Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 21
Files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/u1zbemwnlk0ssq9/AAAdc-HyAwKxMVr-p5mOrFQha?dl=0

DPBSD v2 Recordings and Renders

Recording:

The Roland DP401R has 3 "SuperNatural" piano sounds amongst the hundreds of different tones it can produce. These recordings were made with Piano Tone 1 "Concert Piano", default settings, and ambience/reverb "OFF".

Recordings via a Mackie Onyx Blackjack USB recording interface into Tracktion DAW, Windows 8.1, Sony Tap 11 PC.
(Probably using the Mackie ASIO driver, sorry I didn't make a note!)

dpbsd v2 recorded_rp401r from midi_Take_1.wav :

The dpbsd midi file played by the RP401R from USB stick, with no USB connection between the DP401R and the PC. Audio from the piano rear "Output" socket (3.5 mm TRS stereo jack) in to a Mackie Onyx Blackjack USB recording interface.

Note: connecting the RP401R USB (to host) MIDI cable at the same time as analogue out or in seems to create a path (ground loop?) for constant low-level digital chattering noise. The USB MIDI was disconnected for this recording.

Renders:

Addictive Keys Studio Grand VSTi virtual instrument allows you to play the different sampled pianos as if recorded with different microphones in different positions. It was loaded in to Tracktion DAW v5, and used to render the dpbsd v2 midi file with various configurations.

Hopefully the file names below are self explanatory:

dpbsd v2 recorded_AK Grand Render Front Tubes No EQ No Fx_Take_1.wav
dpbsd v2 recorded_AK Grand Side Rib Solo_Take_1.wav
dpbsd v2 recorded_AK Upright Front Ribbon_Take_2.wav
dpbsd v2 recorded_AK Upright Soundboard_Take_2.wav



Edited by BusyWait (02/27/15 11:26 AM)
_________________________
Regards,
Steven
---
(Re)beginner
Roland DP401R

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#2392976 - 03/02/15 04:08 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
Thanks to BusyWait we have a DPBSD MP3 of the Roland DP401R! BusyWait has this to say:

Quote:
The Roland DP401R has 3 "SuperNatural" piano sounds amongst the hundreds of different tones it can produce. These recordings were made with Piano Tone 1 "Concert Piano", default settings, and ambience/reverb "OFF".

Recordings via a Mackie Onyx Blackjack USB recording interface into Tracktion DAW, Windows 8.1, Sony Tap 11 PC. (Probably using the Mackie ASIO driver, sorry I didn't make a note!)

The dpbsd midi file played by the RP401R from USB stick, with no USB connection between the DP401R and the PC. Audio from the piano rear "Output" socket (3.5 mm TRS stereo jack) in to a Mackie Onyx Blackjack USB recording interface.

Note: connecting the RP401R USB (to host) MIDI cable at the same time as analogue out or in seems to create a path (ground loop?) for constant low-level digital chattering noise. The USB MIDI was disconnected for this recording.

The spectral signatures are almost identical to the RD-700NX main "Concert" voice so I'm not going to do a formal review. Pedal and key sympathetic resonances are missing, which for some asinine reason is quite typical with Roland SN via MIDI playback without resorting to arcane, poorly documented SYSEX backflips.

mp3 : http://www.mediafire.com/listen/n129m2wj3oc9uwa/dpbsd_v2.0_roland_rp401r.mp3

(BusyWait: please PM me if you want to add/change anything)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2392987 - 03/02/15 04:23 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
BusyWait, did you run the full or demo version of Addictive Keys through the DPBSD? It doesn't seem to be looped but it is clearly stretched, which is kind of weird. I'm guessing the full version, as XLN says the demo is limited to 4 octaves.

Typical gushing "review" from SOS chock full of needless popular references and phraseology (Dowager Lady Grantham, in-yer-face, delivers the goods, first port of call, etc.) though he does seem to loathe the Rhodes: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan13/articles/xln-audio-addictive-keys.htm
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2392995 - 03/02/15 04:51 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
BusyWait Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 21
dewster, those are renders using the full version of the Addictive VSTi. I got the virtual instruments really as a reference to understand how good the Roland sound is - sometimes the Roland SuperNatural piano sounded a little uncanny to me, or metallic. It was interesting to hear the comparison to recordings of a real piano.

I'm convinced that the Roland sound changes a little day to day, because some days I'm quite offended by the sounds that some notes make, and other days I can't even hear the metallic overtone that bugged me before :-/

Is there any value in getting you a recording that includes the pedal or string resonance from the RP401R? It's pretty subtle in both cases IMO. If you'd like that I'm happy to try and hack the sysex.

When I bought AK, I saw that they had a bundle offer, so I got the upright piano (which I wanted because the RP401R doesn't seem to have an upright piano sound), and the Mark One. After reading the SOS Mark One review, maybe I should have got their "Electric Grand" instrument instead laugh


Edited by BusyWait (03/02/15 05:00 PM)
_________________________
Regards,
Steven
---
(Re)beginner
Roland DP401R

Top
#2393303 - 03/03/15 01:16 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By BusyWait
Is there any value in getting you a recording that includes the pedal or string resonance from the RP401R? It's pretty subtle in both cases IMO. If you'd like that I'm happy to try and hack the sysex.

Thanks for the offer, but I don't want to put you through a major PITA in order to test something that probably hasn't changed from previous SN models.

BusyWait, I sent you a PM.


Edited by dewster (03/03/15 03:00 PM)
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2393968 - 03/04/15 10:12 PM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
XLN Audio Addictive Keys Studio Grand

Thanks to PW member BusyWait we have DPBSD samples of the Addictive Keys Studio Grand and Upright Pianos!

BusyWait has this to say about them:

Quote:
These sound to my untrained ears to be to be well recorded real piano sounds, notwithstanding the limitations revealed in the technical review. It was particularly interesting to me to get the upright piano instrument. The installed footprint is "only" 1.5GB per piano, and the ability to change the listening perspective (microphone position) from the front (players position), to various other close mic'ed or audience positions is very helpful to blend the instrument in to a mix with other instruments.

The stand alone player is easy to use. In Windows it worked well with the ASIO4ALL software for low latency, and felt like a nice instrument to play. (I'm beginner level, and have been for 30 years).

The stand alone player and the VSTi plug-in both allow sounds from the different microphones to be blended and processed in various natural to more creative and distorted ways, either by choosing from presets, or editing individual parameters. The velocity map (key velocity to played sound) can be adjusted, but I could not avoid "velocity=1 plays a sound" feature.

The tuning, key, and temperament (equal, just, pythagorian, ...) of the piano can be selected, and stretch tuning applied via the Help > About menu.

I was connected to the internet to install and register this, but just tested it with no internet connection, and it worked without limitation. A good demo of Addictive Keys is available to try, which is limited to 4 octaves and 3 microphone positions.


Since the Upright tests very similarly to the Grand I decided to only review the Grand. It's kind of strange that they aren't looped but are stretched, usually it's the other way around with DPs. Not sure why they felt they needed to pare down the size of sample sets that are running on a PC, but when in Rome I suppose it's easier to throw out samples outright via stretching rather than lop off the decays and then have to splice loops on. The lowest notes had fairly short decay times, so they seemed to be "saving" there as well.

mp3s:
- http://www.mediafire.com/listen/jf3k11ambcmbc4b/dpbsd_v2.0_xln_ak_grand_front_tubes_no_eq_no_fx.mp3
- http://www.mediafire.com/listen/5jm7lyeqba8v9u6/dpbsd_v2.0_xln_ak_grand_side_rib.mp3
- http://www.mediafire.com/listen/0md3mtqwi9xom1g/dpbsd_v2.0_xln_ak_upright_front_ribbon.mp3
- http://www.mediafire.com/listen/ejuzerql1be0hwt/dpbsd_v2.0_xln_ak_upright_soundboard.mp3

--------------------
- XLN Studio Grand -
--------------------
FILE & SETUP:
- dpbsd_v2.0_xln_ak_grand_front_tubes_no_eq_no_fx.mp3
- Setup: Tracktion DAW v5.
- Recorded by "BusyWait".
PROS:
- Passes the pedal sympathetic resonance test.
- Passes the silent replay test.
- Passes the looping test (unlooped).
- This is a blended multi-velocity layered sample set.
CONS:
- Fails the key sympathetic resonance test.
- Fails the quick partial damping test.
- Fails the late pedal partial damping test.
- Fails the half pedaling test.
- Fails the stretching test.
- Obviously stretched, group transitions fairly audible.
- Stretch distances: 2,3,1,3,3,2,3,1,2,3,3,1,2(x4),3,3,1,3,2,3,3,2(x3),3,2,3,2,3,4,2,3,2,2,3 = 37 groups.
- High and low note decay times are fairly short (~1/2 Pianoteq).
OTHER:
- Velocity layer switch visible @ vel=50,62.
- Velocity layer switch audible @ vel=62,104.
- Dynamic range 30dB (vel=1:127).
- Notes played @ vel=1 produce sound.
- Dampered | undampered transition: E6 | F6
- MP3 levels: peak @ -5dB, noise floor @ -105dB.
- Date reviewed: 2015-03-02
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2394207 - 03/05/15 11:54 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about purchasing the XLN Audio pianos, but I just re-skimmed the SOS review pointed to above and nowhere in it does he mention stretching. The stretch groups have sufficient timbre differences to pretty much jump out at you when doing chromatic runs and the like, even a casual reviewer who is aware of modern sample mangling practices would likely notice it. Listen for yourself to this walk up the upright piano, particularly the first 1/2 (bass and mid stretching are generally the most audible):

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/9emaanidwioceto/xln_ak_upright_soundboard_stretch.mp3

What is it with professional reviewers? I'm pretty cynical but this kind of thing pegs my meter.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
#2395002 - 03/07/15 07:48 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: dewster]
BusyWait Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/05/14
Posts: 21
I heard the differences at certain places while recording the test file. I put the timbre changes down to the sounds being a recording from a real piano - the string construction (core thickness, materials and windings) and arrangement (1 string, 2 string unisons, 3 string unisons) changes moving up the keyboard.

That's just based on a casual look inside a piano, which I last did 30 years ago. But it looked a little like this: http://sgusedpiano.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/used-yamaha-piano-U3-excellent-condition.jpg

Not the case?
_________________________
Regards,
Steven
---
(Re)beginner
Roland DP401R

Top
#2395048 - 03/07/15 11:04 AM Re: The DPBSD Project! [Re: BusyWait]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4605
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By BusyWait
Not the case?

As you say, timbre change from note to note is entirely natural and expected with an acoustic piano due to vagaries of the physical implementation, and could easily be discontinuous to some degree due to 1/2/3 string transitions, hammer jogs, undampered transition etc.

A stretched sample set (not in the tuning sense but in the sample discard sense) has static timbre among the notes of a stretch group (since they all share the same base sample) with timbre change occurring at group to group transitions. The groups are generally 2 or 3 notes wide, much narrower than otherwise physically caused timbre grouping on an acoustic piano. These islands of uncharacteristic uniformity are fairly unnatural sounding IMO.

And I'm against the trashing of otherwise functional samples merely to keep the storage space required to hold them below some absurdly low limit. Sampled pianos aren't generally in need of less variability.
_________________________
The DPBSD Project!
THE RD-700NX Thread!
DPs Exposed! (nekid pichures!)
!IMO!

Top
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