Subject: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: eagan To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 02:48:27 (EDT) Email Address: slim@intergate.bc.ca Message: i have now narrowed my piano search between kawai & yahama. a 48" yahama U1 may run me 7500 plus taxes versus a 47" Kawai CX 21 for about 6000 plus taxes or a kawai 49" NS 20A for about 7000 plus taxes. any comments on which one is a better buy considering the 1500 price difference between the yahama u1 and the kawai cx21. can you really tell the difference for the money? how good are kawai's? is there a big gap between the two? is it worth spending the extra money? the warranties are about the same - 10 Yrs parts & labour what would you rather buy - a new yahama u1 for 1500 more than the New kawai cx 21- 48" or just save the dough ? and buy the kawai OR what is a better buy a used yahama u1 48" say 5yrs old or a new Kawai cx21 48" for the same price? thanks

Subject: Re: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: Dawn To: eagan Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 23:10:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The U1 and its pricing has come up many times here. I'd like you to know that I have a standing offer for one at $4500. A far cry from $7K! Dawn

Subject: Re: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: David Burton To: eagan Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 13:12:22 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I agree with everything Bobb said.

Subject: Re: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: bobb To: eagan Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:55:33 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: i have now narrowed my piano search between kawai & yahama. a 48" yahama U1 may run me 7500 plus taxes versus a 47" Kawai CX 21 for about 6000 plus taxes or a kawai 49" NS 20A for about 7000 plus taxes. any comments on which one is a better buy considering the 1500 price difference between the yahama u1 and the kawai cx21. can you really tell the difference for the money? how good are kawai's? is there a big gap between the two? is it worth spending the extra money? the warranties are about the same - 10 Yrs parts & labour what would you rather buy - a new yahama u1 for 1500 more than the New kawai cx 21- 48" or just save the dough ? and buy the kawai OR what is a better buy a used yahama u1 48" say 5yrs old or a new Kawai cx21 48" for the same price? thanks --- It pains me to see anyone spending this kind of money on new Japanese (47'!) uprights. Better bets: 1. If you want the predictability and reduced trouble of the Japanse uprights, get a lightly used one - the price will be way down, and the qualiry not much different. 2. If you want to go for better sound - at a lower price - go for Petrof/Weinbach; these are fussier, and thus for people with the time and inclination to work with technicians to get the piano right. 3. The best sounding uprights (short of a few 20k+ germans that, for good reason, nobody buys) by far, in my opinion, are big rebuilt vintage pianos. They cost no more than the amount of money about to be wasted on these 48 inchers. They have to be carefully searched out and independently and expertly inspected. In summary, I hate to make such comments at a late stage in someone's decision process. But I hate even more to see people spend that much money unwisely. I'm not enough of a snob to say that these Japanese uprights might not be a good choice, if the premium is on reliability/predictability. But I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a new one.

Subject: Re: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: Cork To: bobb Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:28:42 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: --- It pains me to see anyone spending this kind of money on new Japanese (47'!) uprights. Better bets: 1. If you want the predictability and reduced trouble of the Japanse uprights, get a lightly used one - the price will be way down, and the qualiry not much different. 2. If you want to go for better sound - at a lower price - go for Petrof/Weinbach; these are fussier, and thus for people with the time and inclination to work with technicians to get the piano right. 3. The best sounding uprights (short of a few 20k+ germans that, for good reason, nobody buys) by far, in my opinion, are big rebuilt vintage pianos. They cost no more than the amount of money about to be wasted on these 48 inchers. They have to be carefully searched out and independently and expertly inspected. In summary, I hate to make such comments at a late stage in someone's decision process. But I hate even more to see people spend that much money unwisely. I'm not enough of a snob to say that these Japanese uprights might not be a good choice, if the premium is on reliability/predictability. But I wouldn't pay that kind of money for a new one. --- A ton of excellent advice. I agree on every count. Cork

Subject: Re: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: das To: eagan Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:25:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: you can get a Yamaha U1 for much less than 7500. A quote of 6500 new would be more realistic, i.e. a 1999 model. A Kawai N20A is available where I am for 6868 new (and I consider that more expensive). The CX21 is of a lower grade than the NS20A. So just do your calculation. I think you really need to search further. The prices than have been quoted you are far too high. U1 and NS20A are excellent choices. Try out the pianos in the showroom....take your time...don't let anyone push you or make you feel ignorant. Choose the tone that you want. Good luck!

Subject: Re: Kawai versus Yahama pianos From: ben To: eagan Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 08:29:40 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo30@hotmail.com Message: O.k..to start off,i would comment on yamaha pianos 1st..i find them quite up to my standard in terms of sound and touch ..the only thing lacking is somewhat their build quality..some yamahas r built in other countries like indoenesia,,,etc...but,,i heard from my piano dealer that the 'U' range of yamaha pianos r genuinely made in japan..so i think the U1 would not be a bad choice..but if u r comparing yamaha's U1 piano to the kawai's CX n NS,i would think kawai would be a better choice..i personally like their mellow but bright sound and the touch of their piano..the kawai is definetly better quality wise but if there is a $1500 between the U1 with the NS,, i would think tHat getting an NS is a better deal..i would think that there would be no difference in their sound becoz it is only an inch taller: makkes not much differece..i dun think it is advisable to spend 1500 more for a yamaha U1... If u r thinking of getteing a used piano,,i would recommend that u get the new kawai..i heard that the older U1S aren't on par with the quality of the new U1... so i would think that a kawai is more reliable... if u r spending $7000+ for an upright piano,,why not get a small new baby grand???no matter wat,,an upright will never have the action of a grand...although the sound might not be that good,,it is still worth ur money if u have lots of sapce to put a grand in ur hse... tat's all i have to say... good luck

Subject: petrof model: PV grand From: petrin To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 09:50:41 (EDT) Email Address: petrin@hotmail.\com Message: is buying a petrof model pv grand for $15,000 worth???can someone comment???

Subject: Re: petrof model: PV grand From: Cork To: petrin Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:14:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: is buying a petrof model pv grand for $15,000 worth???can someone comment??? --- This must be the Model V, 5'3'. For its size, one of the nicest instruments on the market. However, the price difference between the Model V and the Model IV (5'8') is fairly small, and if you have the room the latter is a better choice, in my opinion. Of course, I'm extremely prejudiced against pianos smaller than 5'7' or so . . . I understand that the new Model V's and IV's now have Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof frame; if that is the case with the instrument you are considering it might be worth the higher price to you; when I last checked late in 98 the V ran at least a thousand less than what you are quoting. FWIW.

Subject: Re: petrof model: PV grand From: bobb To: Cork Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 11:25:03 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: is buying a petrof model pv grand for $15,000 worth???can someone comment??? --- This must be the Model V, 5'3'. For its size, one of the nicest instruments on the market. However, the price difference between the Model V and the Model IV (5'8') is fairly small, and if you have the room the latter is a better choice, in my opinion. Of course, I'm extremely prejudiced against pianos smaller than 5'7' or so . . . I understand that the new Model V's and IV's now have Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof frame; if that is the case with the instrument you are considering it might be worth the higher price to you; when I last checked late in 98 the V ran at least a thousand less than what you are quoting. FWIW. --- But you should still bargain hard for a lower price. I ran into a very nice dealer who had these down into the 13 range.

Subject: Re: petrof model: PV grand From: Mat D. To: petrin Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 10:38:30 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: I do not have current catalog but if you are refering to their smallest grand, I think that price would be high. When I was looking, I got a price for a 6'4' at approx. $16,500. What size is the 'pv' you refer to?

Subject: Re: petrof model: PV grand From: petrin To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 08:13:52 (EDT) Email Address: petrin@htoamil.com Message: i am reffering to the pv1...if i'm not wrong,, it is the smallest grand of all...any commends abt tis piano??

Subject: Re: petrof model: PV grand From: David Burton To: petrin Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 13:23:08 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: i am reffering to the pv1...if i'm not wrong,, it is the smallest grand of all...any commends abt tis piano?? --- I'll reiterate what Cork and Bobb have said; we are all concerned with value for the money and one of our issues is why anyone would spend the money for a grand we all believe is too short to begin with vs. a good tall upright. Basically our logic is simple; if you can spend the money for a small grand why not save the money and buy a really good 'tall' upright instead? If you really must have a grand then make it a 5'7' or larger and spend the extra money. It is a matter both of value and quality. But it's your money. There's someone else on here who is probably going to blow $2K to $3K more than they have to on a new Japanese upright. We told them, but hey, it's a free market out there.

Subject: Re: petrof model: PV grand From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 17:34:30 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Like everyone says, go bigger if you can. If you are willing to spend $15,000 on the 5'3', I know you can get the 5'8' for that money--you must bargain a little. I was quoted $16,500 for the 6'4' Petrof so $15,000 is within reason for the 5'8'. good luck & be sure to push hard on the dealer when it comes to set-up & voicing--this is a MUST with these instruments. If they are set up & voiced properly, they can be wonderful instruments. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: eagan To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 01:31:58 (EDT) Email Address: slim@intergate.bc.ca Message: i am confused on which piano to buy, i have narrowed it down to either a yahama U1 or a Baldwin hamilton E250. I would appreciate some knowledgable comments on which is a better buy for investment, music wise, resale, workmanship, quality and sound etc. they are priced about the same but the yahama is a 48" height with speaking wire length of about 45" and the Baldwin is a 45" height with a speaking wire length of 48". which one would you buy? thanks

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: Mat D. To: eagan Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 23:25:29 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: It seems Baldwin is not the favorite here and has taken a pretty good beating! I am not here to defend Baldwin or in any way criticize Yamaha. I will just repeat what my (very experienced) technician told me in a conversation about piano quality these days. He said that Yamaha pianos come from the factory in excellent condition (refering to regulation & voicing etc.) and that Baldwin has the potential to be one of the finest pianos available (he was of course speaking of the high-end line of Baldwin--I'm sorry I don't know all the models & numbers) if they only changed what they do with their hammers; I think he was refering to the fact that they should start with a softer hammer so the piano 'voice' could be built from there. He said that he has voiced some Baldwins that he considered to be 'world class' instruments when he got through with them. Apparently at Baldwin, the accounatants are running the company as apposed to the technician/musicians. I must say that I have played Baldwins that I thought were terrible but I have recently played a SF10 that was pretty darn good and had even greater potential with a proper voicing. Like I said, I am not arguing for Baldwin because if I were the average piano buyer looking for a family piano, I would not want the hassle of having to tinker with the piano to get it right and I would buy the Yamaha which is in great shape right out of the box. On the other hand, an experienced professional pianist might want to opt for the Baldwin, which would potentially yeild better results with the help of a good technician. Maybe it's a moot point because most of what I have said definately holds true for the grands but I'm not sure if this is true of the rest of their line since Baldwin makes so many levels of instrument. My two cents.

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: Cork To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 09:03:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mat, Your post is the most accurate statement on Baldwin in the entire thread. The Artist Grands offer considerably more potential than the Yamaha Conservatory series. The SF-10 is one of the finest 7' instruments on the market, and the L is more piano than 99% of the playing public could ever appreciate. Within the vertical line, the model 248 and the large upright (6000) offer superb tone and stand apart from the rest of the Baldwin verticals. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: lisa To: eagan Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 21:47:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In regard to the uprights, there is NO comparison between Baldwin and Yamaha. Yamaha is tons better. Better quality, better sound, better touch, better everything.

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: bobb To: lisa Date Posted: Fri, Aug 20, 1999 at 12:03:01 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Is that true even for the Baldwin 'Professional' upright? At any rate, my point is that Baldwin makes lots of bad pianos and some great ones.

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: Stephen To: eagan Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 13:34:58 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message: If both are new--Hands down--the Yamaha is the best choice. In the areas of durability, quality control and scale design, the Yamaha beats the Baldwin in every category. A well balanced piano from lowest note to highest is very important and in my experience, the Yamaha is a more balanced piano. I have played countless Baldwins and Yamaha's as a pianist and if given the choice on which one to play, I would ALWAYS choose the Yamaha. As far as durability is concerned--I can relate to you that I have had TWO Baldwin Grands literally fall apart on me when I was practicing on them. While practicing, one of the legs gave way and the piano went crashing to the ground. And then a few months later, the same thing happened AGAIN on a different Baldwin!! In addition, all the pianists I know are never real happy with the feel of Baldwin's action or sound. Hope this helps--good luck. Stephen

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: bobb To: Stephen Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 18:57:10 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Unfortunately, Baldwin badly hurt its reputation with its lines of cheaper pianos, ironically introduced to compete with japan. Baldwin is unique among companies in having many lines, from pretty lousy, to just short of the best. The top Baldwin is in a totally different league from the top yamaha - incomparably, incomparably better.

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: David To: eagan Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 17:01:35 (EDT) Email Address: macduff@music.com Message: Back when I was in music school, all the practice room pianos were either Baldwin Hamiltons or Yamahas. While all of these PSOs (piano-shaped objects) had been thrashed to death, the Yamahas seemed to be holding up better, had nicer tone, and had a better feel to the action. Some Yamaha uprights have a hindged ledge on the fallboard for the music to sit on, and it is NO FUN to crack one's knuckes on this ledge or to have a volume of Beethoven sonatas fall off onto the back of the hands, the Hamitons don't have this problem.

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: das To: eagan Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:39:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have been in the same boat deciding between the Yamaha and Baldwin. For me...I absolutely did not feel that the Baldwin (which I think you are talking about the 243HP) could be compared to the Yamaha U1. I could not appreciate the treble regions of the Baldwin as much. Bass string length is sometimes a ploy. The Baldwin may have a good bass but the treble is quite piddly. Pros for Baldwin is good bass, much cheaper, Cons: lack of height, OK treble. The treble ?could be helped with good voicing?but it does not have that ooomph. I actually prefer the Yamaha or Kawai

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: David Burton To: eagan Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:23:41 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Our student friend makes a good cause for Baldwin. But first tell us what the Baldwin man is willing to sell his piano for. Is it a new console? How about the Yamaha? Is it new? Most techs I know would consider these fair equals. My preference would be the Baldwin, but I'm prejudiced.

Subject: Re: Baldwin versus Yahama Pianos From: petrin To: eagan Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 10:01:25 (EDT) Email Address: ed@fcmail.com Message: u can't actually compare a baldwin n a yamaha becoz both r made from different countries...i fu r aiming at a U1,,then i would rather suggest u get a baldwin,...i have played yamaha U1s in my school b'fore...i don't really like the sound becoz it is not bassy enough..but for a baldwin,,,i would think it is a better choice

Subject: Mason Hamlin From: Thomas O Mehrkam To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 13:39:59 (EDT) Email Address: tmehrkam@i-o.com Message: I am in the market for a new console piano. I am considering either a 45 year old Mason Hamlin or 15 year old Yamaha. Both are in good shape. The Mason Hamlin has been played a lot and the hammers show some wear. The Yamaha has not been played much. I think that they are 45 inch pianos. The Tech at the dealer swears that the 45 year old Mason Hamlin is the better deal. It is a much better quality piano than the Yamaha. It sounds great. I am purchasing for my 11 year old daughter. She is 1 1/2 years into her lessons and the large upright that we currently have will not stay tuned. It is s 100 year old Gogan made in Galveston. The dealer with the yamaha claims that he is giving us 750 for our piano sight unseen. The tech with the Mason Hamlin says that our piano is probably worth nothing. He says that he will haul it away as a favor when he delivers the other piano. Who Should I beleave. My gut instinct tells me that the TECH is correct and the Salesman is full of BS. What do you think.

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: David Burton To: Thomas O Mehrkam Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:17:21 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Whether the dealer or the technician is rioght or not may not be the issue. The issue is trade in value for a new piano and which piano should it be. Everyone knows that my preference is probably the Mason & Hamlin. But both pianos you mention are too small for my standards anyway. The one piece of info that was missing was what you will have to pay the dealer for either piano with your old upright as trade in? Then we would have more data to go on.

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: Thomas O Mehrkam To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:24:46 (EDT) Email Address: tmehrkam@i-0.com Message: The price is $2495 for the Masin Hamlin or $2700 for the Yamaha and my old Piano. The Mason Hamlin dealor considers my tradein worthless. The Yamaha dealer claims that the $2700 price includes $750 credit for my old piano that will not hold pitch. My old piano is a large 5ft upright that was made in Galveston Tx about 100 years ago. The last tech that tuned it recomended getting rid of it and getting a better piano.

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: David Burton To: Thomas O Mehrkam Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:40:09 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: OK, since the Mason & Hamlin is still less money your decision is simplified. If your present piano is that old and will not hold tune then the pinbolock is probably gone, the soundboard may be gone too. If the cabinet isn't much then it is basically worthless and needs to go to the piano boneyard. In any case I'd go for the Mason & Hamlin, get it tuned three or four times over the first year, twice a year thereafter. I'd consider a voicing job in a year and a half. That's it, best of luck to you.

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: David Burton To: Thomas O Mehrkam Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:38:47 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message:

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: Thomas Mehrkam To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 21:20:34 (EDT) Email Address: mehrkam@wt.net Message: --- Took delivery of my new Mason Hamlin piano. The sound is great. The piano is newer than I thought. I checked the serial number and it was made in 1972. Glad I did not buy the Yamaha. It is not a grand but it is 300% better than my old upright ever was. At least while I owned it.

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: Cork To: Thomas O Mehrkam Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 15:05:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think you should have an independent technician (not the dealer's tech) inspect the M&H to determine what, if any, repairs might be needed, and perhaps inspect the Yamaha as well. You need someone on your side helping you to evaluate these instruments, and no one can do that over the Internet. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Mason Hamlin From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 00:32:50 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Thomas, If you like both pianos & they both check out by your independent tech (worthwhile expense BTW)the answer is simple for me --- MASON & HAMLIN. Best of luck Mat D.

Subject: Keyboard for the road From: Jay To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 11:46:58 (EDT) Email Address: jay@concentus-tech.com Message: I travel a lot and would like to keep up my practice. Do you know where I could obtain a 'book size' portable keyboard with three octaves and ear phones?

Subject: Petrof/Weinbach From: Dave Sadowski To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 13:34:02 (EDT) Email Address: dsadowski@jhu.edu Message: I have read a lot of the messages and have found them extremely helpful. I've noted the prep work required of the Petrofs and Weinbachs. How do they hold up in the climate of the Mid-Atlantic? I've heard the wood used in them may not be prepared/cured properly. How long would it take for those related problems to surface? I have read through Larry Fine's book and sense that the Petrof/Weinbach CAN be a great instrument. What have long time owners thought of the instruments? My wife and I are looking at a 45' Weinbach upright or possibly the larger 52' Petrof. She really liked the sound of the Weinbach. We haven't played the Petrof yet. The dealer had put some time into it. She also wants the full manuscript rack for holding her music. The little flip down rack on the fallboard just doesn't cut it. Thanks for your comments.

Subject: Re: Petrof/Weinbach From: Cork To: Dave Sadowski Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 16:46:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dave, I've neither heard nor read anyone say that their wood is improperly cured. Frankly, that sounds like negative selling done by a dealer competing with Petrof. QC is not as good as that of the mass-production Japanese pianos and I've read of a few examples of instruments with serious defects, but these have been repaired or replaced under warranty. The vast majority of Petrofs suffer only from poor action regulation and virtually non-existent voicing direct from the factory. FWIW. Cork

Subject: Re: Petrof/Weinbach From: bobb To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 18:53:08 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: On the wood, construction, etc. I meant to add that although I am not knowledgeable enough to judge petrofs against other 'comparable' pianos, I will say that I have seen some sloppiness (perhaps not important) in terms of glue that ran, wood that is imperfectly shaved, etc. in the petrofs. More generally, the petrof upright that i recently unloaded was, in terms of 'ruggedness', worlds away from my 'new' old M&H (admittedly a grand), which is built like a tank!

Subject: Re: Petrof/Weinbach From: Cork To: bobb Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 09:33:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Of course, the rim of a grand must be massive. The case of a vertical piano serves only to enclose the important parts of the piano and is not load-bearing (which is why many of the Asian pianos use particle board). Adding the following: Note that you can go back to a blank message (or any of your messages) and edit it. Click on your message and when it comes up there is an "edit message" option in the text box. Click on it and you enter a different editor that lets you add to your previous message -- that's what I'm doing now. One more point. I know that you had a less than wonderful experience with the large Petrof upright, but I must say that what I've seen here in Dallas of the large uprights is very favorable. Frankly, if I were in the market for an upright the large Petrof would be the first I would consider. In my opinion the tone is so far superior to the Asians with which it competes that there really is no comparison. Your point about the big one being made in a different factory is correct, but I would go on to add that the 52" is made in the same factory as the large concert grands; that is, it is made in the elite factory rather than the higher production main factory. Having said all that, I must say that given the choice between an M&H BB and any upright on the planet, no one in their right minds would take the upright! Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Petrof/Weinbach From: bobb To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 18:45:49 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Dave, I've neither heard nor read anyone say that their wood is improperly cured. Frankly, that sounds like negative selling done by a dealer competing with Petrof. QC is not as good as that of the mass-production Japanese pianos and I've read of a few examples of instruments with serious defects, but these have been repaired or replaced under warranty. The vast majority of Petrofs suffer only from poor action regulation and virtually non-existent voicing direct from the factory. FWIW. Cork --- I apologize for the empty message - one always has to remind oneself that 'post reply' comes when you are ready to send, not when you are beginning to write, your reply. I am one of several people - including a tech and a Petrof dealer who had lots of both in stock and (probably) nothing to gain - who prefer the 46' to the 52'. Although bigger is better, that is only true when all else is equal. The two pianos are made in different factories, I am told. I found less faults with the 46's, and found their tone tone sweet and mellow, though of course not powerful. But the 52' is really not powerful either. Money-wise, I think the funky european-looking 46' without legs is the best deal of the bunch. Now, a question for those with experience in this realm: I'm a big fan of Petrof grands. But I have not been convinced that their uprights are anything special. That is not to say that they don't sound better than a yamaha (after you go through the endless headaches of fixing all of the troubles). How good can these uprights sound with proper prep? And short of the great 20k+ uprights, how good do *any* uprights sound?

Subject: How good can these uprights sound? From: David Burton To: bobb Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 19, 1999 at 06:29:13 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Bobb 'How good can these uprights sound with proper prep? And short of the great 20k+ uprights, how good do *any* uprights sound?' An excellent question! And perhaps one we can make some recommendations concerning just how much anyone should pay for any upright piano. Here's a scenario. A nice young family goes into a piano store looking for a console or upright piano. They don't know much about pianos. They are just getting into it. Maybe they have a child that they want to get into piano playing, maybe the wife plays some, or maybe he wants to get into it. However it is, the perception is that an upright is a cheap way to get in. But everyone including our little family wants a 'good' piano for their money. The salesman is going to show thm a lot of decorator pianos; they look nice. Most people don't know that in most cases the added casework comes at the expense of what's inside the piano. Sometimes it doesn't matter. But the honest approach is to find the plainest looking piano by that maker, whatever it is, that the salesman has on his floor and get the price on it and compare that one to other models; different furnature on the same sized piano frame. Then go play that plain guy first, then go over and play the furnature guys. See if you can tell the difference. It doesn't matter too much if you are a piano player or not. You should be able to make some impressions. Just plunk something out. If the piano sounds like a toy to you, guess what, you just may need a bigger piano and then look at the price tags. Your added perception has just cost you a few thousand dollars!! Don't feel too bad. Remember how much some even some used pianos sell for. Look around the net and get an idea. Now here's a standard to consider. One can pay as low as $3,000 for a guaranteed by most techs 'good' piano. It will be new and it will be a console or upright, perhaps 46' to 48' tall. One can pay $30,000 for a guaranteed 'good' piano. If it's new it would be a grand probably at least 5'8' long. Question; how many people whether they 'know' pianos or not are capable of appreciating a ten fold difference in price? You know, it really is similar to a discussion about cars. But with pianos, the differences in price from one to another can be surprisingly steep. Now after that question is answered to every individual's satisfaction let's get back to Bobb's question; just how good can any upright sound? Well if you have them set up correctly you'd be very surprised how good they sound, some of them. Most people have their uprights parked right up against the wall, a big mistake. Allow four inches or more between the wall and the back of the piano. The wall should alos be as hard and smooth as possible. Plaster walls are best. Another mistake is to put their pianos on rugs or carpets. Again this creates a lot of problems including the famous 'microclimate' problem which affects tuning and other things in some uprights. A third problem occurs when people put their pianos up against wall heaters, baseboard, etc. This is sort of like spending a lot of money on good vintage wine and deciding to store it upright in direct sunlight for a year before opening it. Some things seem obvious to everybody but aren't to some. Yeah I have even known a few people who bought Steinway grands and parked them right up against radiators. Their soundboards broke just like your upright's will if you do something this stupid. Enough said? OK, after you have the piano away from the wall and on a nice hard floor, you have the piano itelf, how it's voiced, how good an instrument it really is. As I've said before size matters. If I'm playing a big 'turn of the century' upright that's been properly rebuilt, the bass is astounding, the treble is clear and bell like, aside from repetition, the thing sounds like a midsized grand. And some of these pianos can be had for $4,000 - $6,000. That's a pretty good deal. Of course I say 'properly rebuilt' and that includes replacement of the pinblock (unless it's an old 'screw stringer' Mason & Hamlin in which case the combs had better be new and stainless steel) as well as new strings, new scaling, and maybe a new soundboard. Oh yes and the action should be completely new. How do the consoles sound? Well, they wont sound anything like big grands, usually wont play like anything like a grand either. In fact the smaller a piano gets the more it's tone sounds like a toy piano, you know the kind they used to give to babies back in the 50's? It is still true that a good piano, kept in shape and improved by the owner, retains its value better than a too small not so good piano that hasn't been kept up or improved by its owner, same with cars. And yeah pianos do depreciate like cars. But unlike cars, they can be brought back to better than new and have a value something like half their new value, which does represent something of a savings to someone, either the owner of a rebuilt piano or the buyer of one. Now how about the so called 'studio grands' or those with the prestige decals; Steinway? Are they really worth the money? Well yes and no. Yes, they do sound a lot like their bigger grander buddies and they mostly play better too, although I've run into a few that were out of regulation and played badly. Their owners just didn't know any better to call in a good tech and get the problems taken care of. You know there's a lot of self satisfied snobbery that goes along with Steinway. A lot of people think that just because they have a Steinway it will never go wrong. In fact Steinways take a lot of babying, a lot more than some other brands. Just ask a few techs. And no, they aren't worth the money since there are many contenders out there now that have products that can produce impressive sound and touch for half or less the money. How much money would I personally pay for an upright piano? No more than $10,000 and that's stretching it. I have played many good one's that can be had for less than $5,000 a few even less than $3,000. I bet there's even a $500 piano out there that I might consider a bargain. You see it all depends on what the potential buyer can appreciate in a piano. The more one knows the more one can appreciate. Oh and if it matters, my top of the line best of class act in an upright piano would have to be the new Mason & Hamlin. Yes, even over a Steinway.

Subject: Re: Petrof/Weinbach From: bobb To: Dave Sadowski Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 15:49:29 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I have read a lot of the messages and have found them extremely helpful. I've noted the prep work required of the Petrofs and Weinbachs. How do they hold up in the climate of the Mid-Atlantic? I've heard the wood used in them may not be prepared/cured properly. How long would it take for those related problems to surface? I have read through Larry Fine's book and sense that the Petrof/Weinbach CAN be a great instrument. What have long time owners thought of the instruments? My wife and I are looking at a 45' Weinbach upright or possibly the larger 52' Petrof. She really liked the sound of the Weinbach. We haven't played the Petrof yet. The dealer had put some time into it. She also wants the full manuscript rack for holding her music. The little flip down rack on the fallboard just doesn't cut it. Thanks for your comments. ---

Subject: Knabe From: Jennifer To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 11:39:42 (EDT) Email Address: kamacrum@aol.comm Message: Can any one tell me about my Kanabe gold metal piano ? # are 37804. Can't find any info on it. Thanks

Subject: Re: Knabe From: Granholm Bros To: Jennifer Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 22:33:17 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Can any one tell me about my Kanabe gold metal piano ? # are 37804. Can't find any info on it. Thanks --- Jennifer I'll assume you mean Knabe. The serial number puts it between 1890-1895. To find out more here, you'd have to post more information about the piano: upright or grand, how big, etc. But we'd only be guessing. The best way to find out more about your piano is to hire a tech in your area to inspect it. I can tell you, however, that Knabe was building some exceptionally fine pianos at this time. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Östlind & Almquist From: Daniel Lindholm To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 19:12:00 (EDT) Email Address: gimp@nc.lodiz.nu Message: If anyone have the P Piano Atlas and could say how old my Östlind & Almquist piano with serial 20597, I would really be glad.

Subject: Re: Östlind & Almquist From: Granholm Bros To: Daniel Lindholm Date Posted: Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 22:24:43 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: If anyone have the P Piano Atlas and could say how old my Östlind & Almquist piano with serial 20597, I would really be glad. --- Daniel From one Scandinavian to another, according to Pierce, it was built in 1940. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Haines Bros Piano From: Stephen To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 12:09:13 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message: Does anyone know anything about Haines Bros. Grand pianos? IMy Parents have one they are getting rid of--is it worth me taking? It was built in 1931, has a beautfilly carved wooden case and is is otherwise excellent condition--except it hasn't been tuned in about 10 years! It is 5' in length and has a full size keyboard.

Subject: Re: Haines Bros Piano From: David Burton To: Stephen Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 10:05:10 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Does anyone know anything about Haines Bros. Grand pianos? IMy Parents have one they are getting rid of--is it worth me taking? It was built in 1931, has a beautfilly carved wooden case and is is otherwise excellent condition--except it hasn't been tuned in about 10 years! It is 5' in length and has a full size keyboard. --- Yeah, it's probably worth 'taking' for the price of moving it, if you don't live too far away. Hains Bros. was one of those companies who made an ok piano, maybe a bit better than average; Hardman, Steck, Kranich & Bach, Decker, etc. I don't think I'd spend much money getting it rebuilt unless I heard otherwise from a good piano technician. You see, AGAIN, size does matter and this piano is at 5', just too short. My personal limit on grands is 5'7' and 48' on uprights. Anything smaller than that, forget it. And if it doesn't have all 88 keys, ditto. But if you can get it for the price of moving it and you need a piano to play, fine, get it, tune it, play it.

Subject: David Burton From: Stephen To: David Burton Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 13:23:26 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message: David Burton , Thanks for the advice. I already have a 6' Yamaha which is a very good instrument. I just want this Haines Bros. piano for a second when I need another to play two-piano pieces. It would in no way be my primary instrument--just an extra.

Subject: Re: David Burton From: David Burton To: Stephen Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 21:35:06 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: David Burton , Thanks for the advice. I already have a 6' Yamaha which is a very good instrument. I just want this Haines Bros. piano for a second when I need another to play two-piano pieces. It would in no way be my primary instrument--just an extra. --- Stephen, After reading your post earlier about your unfortunate luck with Baldwin pianos (I hope you weren't seriously hurt!), I sort of thought you might be one who feels better with the Asian pianos. I played a 48' Young Chang upright not long ago and was very surprised. I think you can pick one of these up for not a lot of money and you will have an excellent second piano for student accompaniment or what have you.

Subject: Woody Guthries Old Piano? From: ENNEAEAST To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 14:29:34 (EDT) Email Address: ENNEAEAST@AOL.COM Message: We have a beautiful Kurtzmann and Company upright that is dated approximately 1908. The serial number is 30962. We were told by the gentleman we got it from that it 'traveled' with Woody Guthrie and his band. Being as we all live in the 'Berkshires' of Massachusetts this did seem plausible. As the gentleman was a musician in his younger days, and was getting rid of three of the eight pianos in his home (for free) we don't see why he would have had any reason to fabricate the story of the piano having travelled with Woody Guthrie. We haven't been able to contact Arlo Guthrie with regard to this, but we REALLY want to find out the 'true' history behind our beautiful piano, and if there is any added value to it, if the history can be proven. It is a beautifully carved mahogany upright. If anyone out there has any ideas for us on how to research this further please let us know. And as for the obvious, we believe the gentleman we got the piano from has relocated, and we are unable to find him, for additional answers.

Subject: Re: Woody Guthries Old Piano? From: Granholm Bros To: ENNEAEAST Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 19:15:15 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: We have a beautiful Kurtzmann and Company upright that is dated approximately 1908. The serial number is 30962. We were told by the gentleman we got it from that it 'traveled' with Woody Guthrie and his band. Being as we all live in the 'Berkshires' of Massachusetts this did seem plausible. As the gentleman was a musician in his younger days, and was getting rid of three of the eight pianos in his home (for free) we don't see why he would have had any reason to fabricate the story of the piano having travelled with Woody Guthrie. We haven't been able to contact Arlo Guthrie with regard to this, but we REALLY want to find out the 'true' history behind our beautiful piano, and if there is any added value to it, if the history can be proven. It is a beautifully carved mahogany upright. If anyone out there has any ideas for us on how to research this further please let us know. And as for the obvious, we believe the gentleman we got the piano from has relocated, and we are unable to find him, for additional answers. --- Ah, piano folklore--I love it.... The square grand that came around the Horn on a clipper ship; the huge Beckwith upright, built in 1908 mind you, and sold out of the Sears catalog, that grandpa swore came across the Plains in the back of a covered wagon... Early in my career I worked on a piano whose owner said once belonged to Hoyt Axton. It was a bashed-up old upright, but that made no difference. Actually, it could have been his, because the current owner bought it in a tiny community outside of town where he's documented to have actually lived for awhile, and she knew people who saw him playing it. I have some doubts about claims that big old pianos 'travelled' with famous musicians of the Woody Guthrie type, simply because it's a difficult task to haul a 700-pound piano on and off a stage every night, and keep it working and in tune at the same time. It would have been much easier to play a piano that was almost always available locally, by making prior arrangements to have one on the stage and tuned by the time the band got there. This doesn't mean the piano in question couldn't have belonged to Woody Guthrie, however. You'd just have to find someone who remembers that Woody live in the same town the piano's in and this person saw it in Woody's house, I guess. Another reliable way of identification would be to find a photograph of Woody playing this piano, with its 'Kurtzmann' decal prominently displayed, or at least identical casework. Anyway, you'd need to do this research work to find primary sources--actual photographs or human witnesses who actually saw the piano in his home. Second- or third-hand accounts really wouldn't be reliable, because these stories get embellished over the years. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: wahlberg-berlin piano From: pat martin To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 14:45:04 (EDT) Email Address: pamartin@sprynet.com Message: We've inherited an old Wahlberg-Berlin upright which was purchased in England in the early '60's and shipped to the states. It is in excellent condition, the inner-works are brass, ivory keys (all good) and has 2 brass candleholders attached as if to read music by. The wood is also in excellent condition, looks to be early 1900's design, possibly Victorian. I would appreciate ANY information on the maker, if anyone has an idea what it might be worth, interested buyers, etc. Thanks.

Subject: anything From: J Morgan Stewart To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 17, 1999 at 00:04:43 (EDT) Email Address: juddco@lvnworth.com Message: I have an opportunity to purchase a Williams and Sons 'epworth' up right concert grand built in Chicago before 1952 any information is greatly appreciated

Subject: Everett Baby Grand From: Debi To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 15:43:04 (EDT) Email Address: dtgroup@xanadu2.net Message: I am looking to establish the value of a piano made by THE EVERETT - BOSTON piano company. The model/serial number is 39745, which I'm told dates it about 1910-1911. The piano is in good shape and in playing condition. If someone could help me in establishing a value along with any other information about this item, I would sincerely appreciate it. Thanks, Debi

Subject: Re: Everett Baby Grand From: Granholm Bros To: Debi Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 18:20:01 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I am looking to establish the value of a piano made by THE EVERETT - BOSTON piano company. The model/serial number is 39745, which I'm told dates it about 1910-1911. The piano is in good shape and in playing condition. If someone could help me in establishing a value along with any other information about this item, I would sincerely appreciate it. Thanks, Debi --- Debi, the only way to do this reliably is for you to hire a local piano technician to inspect and evaluate the instrument. This person will be familiar with the market in your area, and once he/she knows the condition of your piano, you'll get a reliable value. At the same time, you can ask any other questions you have about the piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Ellington Player From: jpasmore To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 22:36:16 (EDT) Email Address: jpasmore@fastdata.net Message: My father-in-law has a 1912 Ellington player piano and about 75 - 100 rolls. The piano was completly restored in 1969 inside and out by a reputable piano restorer. The piano looks great and play like it did when it was new. Having looked at several sites, I see no mention of this brand. Does anyone know anything about this piano?

Subject: Re: Ellington Player From: Granholm Bros To: jpasmore Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 18:11:01 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: My father-in-law has a 1912 Ellington player piano and about 75 - 100 rolls. The piano was completly restored in 1969 inside and out by a reputable piano restorer. The piano looks great and play like it did when it was new. Having looked at several sites, I see no mention of this brand. Does anyone know anything about this piano? --- Ellington pianos were manufactured by Baldwin, and yours probably has the Baldwin-built player mechanism as well. While not at the top of Baldwin's line, Ellingtons were pretty nice pianos--at least the ones I've seen. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Piano age From: Le To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 21:30:22 (EDT) Email Address: emmonsw@norwich.net Message: I am looking for info on a piano I was given. It is a Starck Cabinet Grand serial number 95818 made by the P A Starck Piano Co. from Chicago- NY. Thanks for your help.

Subject: Re: Piano age From: Granholm Bros To: Le Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 18:12:04 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb,net Message: According to the Pierce Piano Atlas, this number indicates the piano was built in 1927. There's little other information about the company, other than that they started in 1891 and lasted until 1968. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Piano age From: Le To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 16:39:15 (EDT) Email Address: emmonsw@norwich.net Message: According to the Pierce Piano Atlas, this number indicates the piano was built in 1927. There's little other information about the company, other than that they started in 1891 and lasted until 1968. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR --- Thanks for your reply. It is just interesting info to know. I picked this piano up for free. Well free except for the moving costs. $160. Not bad. Thanks again for your help.

Subject: Schimmel Upright From: Craig To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 09:53:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd like some advice on the potential purchase of a used Schimmel 130 Upright. It's 51' tall and 5 years old. I am buying it from a Schimmel dealer, and it will be played by my 10 year old son, who is starting his 2nd year of lessons. We are restricted to buying an upright vs. a grand because of space in our house. Does anyone have experience with Schimmel uprights, and how would you compare it with a new 52' Baldwin upright? The Schimmel uprights get generally favorable reviews in The Piano Book, but I'm having difficulty finding other info. Thanks in advance.

Subject: Re: Schimmel Upright From: Cork To: Craig Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 15:00:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Schimmels are very nice mid-range instruments. I think of them as offering Yamaha-quality construction, fit, and finish without the overly bright Yamaha tone. The large Baldwin upright offers an interesting comparison. Overall fit and finish may not reach that of the Schimmel, though the materials employed are very high quality. The big difference is in tone quality. The Schimmel tone is less complex, more pure tone. The large Baldwin has a characteristically complex North American tone with a very powerful bass (a Baldwin hallmark). Both are fine instruments. I would choose between the two based upon your preference for the style of tone. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Schimmel Upright From: Michael To: Craig Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 14:17:28 (EDT) Email Address: skersare1@aol.com Message: I'd like some advice on the potential purchase of a used Schimmel 130 Upright. It's 51' tall and 5 years old. I am buying it from a Schimmel dealer, and it will be played by my 10 year old son, who is starting his 2nd year of lessons. We are restricted to buying an upright vs. a grand because of space in our house. Does anyone have experience with Schimmel uprights, and how would you compare it with a new 52' Baldwin upright? The Schimmel uprights get generally favorable reviews in The Piano Book, but I'm having difficulty finding other info. Thanks in advance. --- I have also been looking at a Shimmel 130 Upright. Just curious what you are paying for your used piano? The best new price I have found is $10,950.00 for polished black ebone finish.

Subject: Re: Schimmel Upright From: Craig To: Michael Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 15:52:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Michael - $8,495, also polished black Ebony finish. Price includes an adjustable black concert bench. Dealer had originally sold it, and then bought it back when owner moved overseas.

Subject: Re: Schimmel Upright From: Craig To: Michael Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 15:46:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd like some advice on the potential purchase of a used Schimmel 130 Upright. It's 51' tall and 5 years old. I am buying it from a Schimmel dealer, and it will be played by my 10 year old son, who is starting his 2nd year of lessons. We are restricted to buying an upright vs. a grand because of space in our house. Does anyone have experience with Schimmel uprights, and how would you compare it with a new 52' Baldwin upright? The Schimmel uprights get generally favorable reviews in The Piano Book, but I'm having difficulty finding other info. Thanks in advance. --- I have also been looking at a Shimmel 130 Upright. Just curious what you are paying for your used piano? The best new price I have found is $10,950.00 for polished black ebone finish. ---

Subject: Re: Schimmel Upright From: Mat D. To: Craig Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 11:22:13 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Craig, Schimmel is an excellent choice. I owned a Schimmel (small grand--5'1') for many years (recently traded in for larger piano) and it was a great piano. Schimmel is known for their excellent quality control and beautiful finishes. I believe they are the #1 (most pianos) piano manufacturer in Europe. A 51' upright is a good size; probably the largest you will find & thus has the potential for the best tone. It is good you are buying from a Schimmel dealer; be sure to insist on their best technician and that he comes to 'voice', 'tune' & regulate after delivery to your home. Best of luck --- let us know how you make out! Mat D.

Subject: Digital vs. Acustic pianos From: Marta To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 18:17:13 (EDT) Email Address: martagouveia@ip.pt Message: I love piano. I don`t play piano since 1986. I have the 4th year of piano by the National School of Music of my country (Portugal). I have an upright Petrof since 1973, wich sound I don´t like. Now I´ve decided to come back to piano playing and studing after 12 years without playing it. I´m going to sell the old Petrof and I want to buy a new one. I want a piano for me, only for my pleasure at home. The problem is that I´m thinking on buying a digital piano (yamaha gt10, roland hp730?), because it seems to me that will be better for training, without much noise to the rest of the family and neigbours and because it seems that here in this region is not easy to get someone to tune in or up the piano. But I´m afraid that the sound of a good digital piano, in the future, becomes unpleasant for me, as I gain my 'hear' again. I never had a digital piano; till 1 week ago, pianos for me were the acustic pianos! Advise me! Thanks. Marta. Marta G.

Subject: Re: Keyboards vs. Real pianos From: Cork To: Marta Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 14:52:42 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Marta, I agree with the others. The tone of the digital keyboard will grow tiring to you in a short time. I have both a professional keyboard (weighted action, excellent piano samples) and a fine piano, but I cannot use the keyboard for anything except playing with arrangements and multiple timbres. As an imitation piano, it is less interesting than a cheap console piano. No current digital instrument can accurately reproduce the wide range of tone color produced by a piano, dependent on such factors as pedalling, velocity, and the interaction of notes within a chord. (Of course, I'm assuming you are interested in playing from the great body of classical piano literature. For rock music, the keyboard has significant advantages.) Several piano manufacturers (including Yamaha) offer instruments with a 'quiet mode' that lowers a sheet of felt between the hammers and the strings, enabling you to practice with greatly reduced sound. In the US, such a modification can be made to most uprights by a capable technician. Something like that should be available in Portugal as well. Good luck with your decision. Cork

Subject: Re: Digital vs. Acustic pianos From: Charlie To: Marta Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 13:04:00 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Regarding trying to get the Petrof into better condition: Petrof was still a state industry in 1973, so I suspect the quality was not so good. It may not be possible to improve it without spending too much money. I prefer acoustic pianos for their ability to respond. Digital pianos do not do this as well. Many manufacturers, however, make combination instruments with acoustic and digital instruments in the same piano. This allows you to practice with headphones, and not disturb your family. But you can really play the acoustic part when you want to. Regarding learning on a digital piano, I don't think you can progress as far on a digital.

Subject: Re: Digital vs. Acustic pianos From: David Burton To: Marta Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 20:33:22 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: There are basically two reasons for considering a digital piano; 1) portability; you can usually move it easier and as a secondary adjunct they will never need tuning and 2) they can be used with MIDI equipment and computers and as an adjunct can often produce a variety of different sounds. The very best digital pianos would be those that are source sampled, that is their sound is basically a recording of an acoustic instrument or in the case of “multi timbral” instruments, samplings of many acoustic instruments. These should have a full 88 keys and they should as nearly as possible match the touch characteristics of an acoustic piano. But having said all that, a digital keyboard is not a piano and never will be one. An acoustic piano does not require electricity; you can play it during a thunderstorm, or during a power failure. An acoustic piano when well regulated and in tune will respond to the dynamics of your touch far more than even the best digital pianos. And yes, your ears will tire of the electronic sound of any electronic piano. They just aren’t the same thing at all. But why do you want to sell your Petrof? Why not have a good piano technician see it and suggest things that could be done to bring it back up to top performance?

Subject: David, 'ditto' to the technician/Petrof voicing!! From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 11:24:59 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message:

Subject: Brewster Square Back Grand Piano From: Jim Cinelli To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 16, 1999 at 12:13:10 (EDT) Email Address: cinelli1@email.cig.mot.com Message: We have an old Brewster square back piano, and we have no idea as to its age or value. I have not been able to gather any information on this company. I'm looking for help, suggestions, information.

Subject: HELP! From: Jason To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 15:50:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone who knows anything about pianos, please help me. I'm looking for a new piano, and the piano dealer keeps telling me that this Weinbach piano is really good, and I was pretty convinced, but most of the people that I've talked to either never heard of Weinbach or says that the brand stinks. Can anyone help me? Weinbach is manufactured by the same company as Petrof.

Subject: Re: HELP! From: Janine To: Jason Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 16:29:30 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone who knows anything about pianos, please help me. I'm looking for a new piano, and the piano dealer keeps telling me that this Weinbach piano is really good, and I was pretty convinced, but most of the people that I've talked to either never heard of Weinbach or says that the brand stinks. Can anyone help me? Weinbach is manufactured by the same company as Petrof. --- I had a 6'4' Weinbach until recently and loved it. It had a lovely tone, and very nice touch. You must warned that my piano dealer refers to Petrofs and Weinbachs as piano kits in a box. You must be very careful to have these pianos properly prepared by a good piano technician. Properly prepared, they are incredible bargains.

Subject: Re: HELP! From: Cork To: Janine Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 20:43:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone who knows anything about pianos, please help me. I'm looking for a new piano, and the piano dealer keeps telling me that this Weinbach piano is really good, and I was pretty convinced, but most of the people that I've talked to either never heard of Weinbach or says that the brand stinks. Can anyone help me? Weinbach is manufactured by the same company as Petrof. --- I had a 6'4' Weinbach until recently and loved it. It had a lovely tone, and very nice touch. You must warned that my piano dealer refers to Petrofs and Weinbachs as piano kits in a box. You must be very careful to have these pianos properly prepared by a good piano technician. Properly prepared, they are incredible bargains. --- I agree completely with Janine. The Weinbach and Petrof instruments are superb values for the quality of tone they provide. However, they tend to require more preparation out of the box than many of the mass-produced pianos (Yamaha, Kawai, Boston, etc.) with which they compete. If the dealer is one that focuses on service and quality, the prep is likely to be done there. If the dealership competes on volume and price, you'll probably need to have your own tech complete the preparation (at additional cost to you.) In the end, though, the Petrofs/Weinbachs can be superb instruments. Cork

Subject: Thanks, Jan and Cork, one more question... From: Jason To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 21:16:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Janine and Cork, thank you very much for your responses. The dealer is offering a new, studio upright Weinbach for $4500, do you think that it's a good deal? Thanks again!

Subject: Re: Thanks, Jan and Cork, one more question... From: David Burton To: Jason Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 10:22:07 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Jason, I tell you this, no dealer is going to make the instrument more than you could have it made for you by your own technician. And this is really preferable. The dealers are out to move pianos, pure and simple. They like it if they get the fewest headaches from picky customers later. After all, they think that since they went to the risk and trouble to bring in these pianos anyway in whatever condition, that after the deal is made and the piano delivered with a complimentary tuning, that should be the end of it. And yeah for $4K this piano is probably a good deal. I hope we're talking at least 52' tall too. If you want to know whether you have a good instrument to begin with, the answer is a qualified yes. The qualification is as has been suggested, certain things that need to be corrected, certain finishing touches, little mechanical things, etc. Your good qualified pianjo technician should be able to make any of these repairs and adjustments in your home. What you will notice as time goes by is that your piano will get better and better. You will also notice a few things that you really want done to it. You may decide after a year that you want extensive voicing done. This is a specialty as has been suggested. What you're getting is a basic European piano. They tend to have mellower sound than a comparable Asian piano. They do take more technical work to bring out their best qualities, but in my humble opinion, they have more to offer a serious player down the road. Money spent on them is money well spent. Therefore, if you basically like the piano; the way it plays and sounds, try and get the dealer down as low as he will go and plan on spending extra money on a technician to make everything else right.

Subject: Re: Thanks, Jan and Cork, one more question... From: Carol To: Jason Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 00:57:35 (EDT) Email Address: jcichao@sprynet.com Message: I love Petrof/Weinbach pianos!! Even much more than I do for my 5'2' Kimball. I don't know about tech aspect much. But I like Petrof's sound and action. I was quoted $4,700 for a console 2 years ago. I think it will be a good investment to buy one as soon as Czechoslovakia's econemy rises.

Subject: Re: Price on Weinbach studio? From: Cork To: Jason Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 09:12:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm sorry, Jason, but I'm not current on upright prices . . . Keep in mind, also, that if this is a 'quality' dealer, the discount is likely to be less but the condition of the instrument is likely to be better. By the way, Larry Fine, the author of 'The Piano Book', offers a yearly supplement with 'standard' prices on virtually all models available in the U.S. He also has a price service available that can tell you what a particular model is selling for in your region.

Subject: Re: Price on Weinbach studio? From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 09:37:33 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Jason, Like Cork says, if the dealer is reputable & sets the instrument up properly the Weinbach can be wonderful. In my opinion, you can do a bit better in the pricing. I was quoted approx. $4,900 for the comparable Petrof (for my church) and the Petrof are a higher retail overall. I would try for a price closer to $5,000 but if the dealer is highly reputable & you are assured of proper voicing, regulation etc., don't let a few dollars stop you; I'm fairly confident you can do better though! Let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Price on Weinbach studio? From: bobb To: Mat D. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 14:14:48 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I agree with Mat that this price is too high - 4k is more like it. One might argue that it is worth paying a little more if the dealer is really 'reputable' and will set it up properly (which I know from bitter experience is absolutely essential on these pianos). I tend to disagree. My experience has been that even an honest and well-meaning dealer doesn't tend to put in the resources really to get the piano in excellent playing condition. Technicians are given little incentive to really do the job. My own view is, get the piano at rock bottom price (as long as you can ascertain that it is not defective and that it is not 'grey market' - important so that it has a proper warranty), and then pay the best technician you can find to prepare and voice the piano in your home. This is maybe three hundred well spent, still less than the premium you will pay at a fancy shop, and is an 'incentive compatible' arrangement, as we say in the economics profession.

Subject: Re: Price on Weinbach studio? From: bobb To: Mat D. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 14:14:46 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I agree with Mat that this price is too high - 4k is more like it. One might argue that it is worth paying a little more if the dealer is really 'reputable' and will set it up properly (which I know from bitter experience is absolutely essential on these pianos). I tend to disagree. My experience has been that even an honest and well-meaning dealer doesn't tend to put in the resources really to get the piano in excellent playing condition. Technicians are given little incentive to really do the job. My own view is, get the piano at rock bottom price (as long as you can ascertain that it is not defective and that it is not 'grey market' - important so that it has a proper warranty), and then pay the best technician you can find to prepare and voice the piano in your home. This is maybe three hundred well spent, still less than the premium you will pay at a fancy shop, and is an 'incentive compatible' arrangement, as we say in the economics profession.

Subject: piano-66 key-baby grand From: Violet To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 18:00:29 (EDT) Email Address: violetnon@msn.com Message: We have a fuehr and stemmer baby grand piano with 66 keys. We were trying to find out any information about the piano that we can,,,,age,where it was built,,,,,todays price. If any one has any information on this that they would share it would be greatly appriciated. Thank You

Subject: Re: piano-66 key-baby grand From: David Burton To: Violet Date Posted: Sun, Aug 15, 1999 at 09:53:45 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: We have a fuehr and stemmer baby grand piano with 66 keys. We were trying to find out any information about the piano that we can,,,,age,where it was built,,,,,todays price. If any one has any information on this that they would share it would be greatly appriciated. Thank You --- These sorts of pianos are not really very serious instruments; 1) as has been said many times here and elsewhere, the shorter the grand the worse it tends to be as a musical instrument which is really the basis for a piano's value and because this is true 2) the short keyboard makes the instrument extremely limited. Such a piano is more of a stunt than a real piano; a toy. Toy pianos usually fetch toy prices.

Subject: Gulbransen From: scannell To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 11:06:14 (EDT) Email Address: cannellsa@aol.com Message: I recently purchased a 1928 Gulbransen baby grand piano for my daughter. Can anyone tell me about it or the company? Thanks.

Subject: Re: Gulbransen From: Granholm Bros To: scannell Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 18:39:19 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I recently purchased a 1928 Gulbransen baby grand piano for my daughter. Can anyone tell me about it or the company? Thanks. --- Gulbransen was probably best known for their upright player pianos, and especially for their famous advertising logo showing a baby sitting on the floor and working the player's foot pedals with its hand and making music, thus implying the piano was very easy to pump. The company continued in business into the 1960's, building pianos mostly for the low-priced end of the market. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Help From: Stephen To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 02:23:53 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message: Does anyone know ANYTHING about Meldorf pianos? TIme they were made? Reputation? Any info would be much appreciated.

Subject: Re: Help From: Granholm Bros To: Stephen Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 18:32:27 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Does anyone know ANYTHING about Meldorf pianos? TIme they were made? Reputation? Any info would be much appreciated. --- Meldorf was a brand name used by H.C. Bay and Estey piano companies during the 1920's. None of these three names has come down through the years as a great and legendary builder of pianos, so the Meldorf piano's reputation was probably average at best. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: What is it??? From: Tom Nunes To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 21:44:02 (EDT) Email Address: tomnunes@ix.netcom.com Message: We inherited an old Weber piano that I'm trying to learn more about. The only clues I can find are a serial # 5347 that is located on the lower left hand corner and 'Weber N.Y.' at the top left inside. The unit I beleive is a console model (about 4'W x 5'L) and has 'Weber' & 'New York' on it. It appears to be pretty old. Any hints, history, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Subject: Re: What is it??? From: Granholm Bros To: Tom Nunes Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 18:26:35 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: We inherited an old Weber piano that I'm trying to learn more about. The only clues I can find are a serial # 5347 that is located on the lower left hand corner and 'Weber N.Y.' at the top left inside. The unit I beleive is a console model (about 4'W x 5'L) and has 'Weber' & 'New York' on it. It appears to be pretty old. Any hints, history, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. --- If this is the Weber Piano Co of East Rochester NY, and if the serial number you posted is accurate, you do indeed have a very old piano, built sometime between 1865-1870. Weber had a reputation as a buider of excellent pianos, but if yours is indeed this old, it's in a different category than an upright built, say, after the turn of the century. Your best bet would be to hire a local piano technician to inspect the instrument, verify the above information, and give you a report on the piano's overall condidtion. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Pianos Age From: stacy To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 04:20:39 (EDT) Email Address: sixvezs@ix.netcom.com Message: A co-worker of my husbands gave us a upright(grand?) piano by Steger & Son, serial no. 15574#11. I haven't been able to come up with any information on it. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks!

Subject: Re: Pianos Age From: Granholm Bros To: stacy Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 18:20:20 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: A co-worker of my husbands gave us a upright(grand?) piano by Steger & Son, serial no. 15574#11. I haven't been able to come up with any information on it. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks! --- The piano was built in 1910. This company was one of hundreds in existence at that time. You will be able to get more specific information on your particular piano's condition from a local piano technician. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Does anyone know? From: Steph To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 13, 1999 at 02:46:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have an upright piano that is a legacy in my family. I cannot find any information about it or the company. It was made by Schaeffer in Paris in the late 1860's. Does anyone know or ever heard of this company? Thank you!

Subject: Wasted money! Help From: Debbie To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 00:48:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I played piano for a few years when I was a child and then stopped. I wanted to take up piano again and bought a new (6/99) Altenburg Studio piano for 3,000. which I believe are supposed to be made from the same factory as the Samick. After reading some of the other listings posted, I feel like I should try and trade it in for something else. I have been playing it every night and it doesn't sound bad, but then again I am a 'beginner'. Should I stay with the Altenburg (Samick) or are they really that bad?

Subject: Re: Wasted money! Help From: Mat D. To: Debbie Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 22:55:46 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Debbie, I agree w/David--You might not get any more piano than you have for $3000. There is one possibility--since you bought the piano new, it might be possible (if you feel the need) to upgrade within this first year & not lose any money; the dealer would allow $3000 for your piano, traded up to a higher level instrument. The dealer that I bought my piano from offers this --- you might ask your dealer. David's idea of modifying your piano might even make more sense --- just be sure to find an experienced technician; they can sometimes work wonders. Last and certainly not least, keep practicing--that usally goes a long way to making a piano sound better! Best of luck, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Wasted money! Help From: David Burton To: Debbie Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 20:50:22 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.comd Message: I'm not sure you wasted your money. I don't know more than the couple names you mentioned, an Alenberg Studio should be all right, you may even be able to make some modifications to it to suit you, ask your technician. As for Samick, well all the Asian piano makers are getting better all the time. I'm not really sure that $3,000 would have bought you more in a new piano of that size. Others may disagree, but as the saying goes, one must start somewhere.

Subject: Used Baby Grand From: Larry To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 22:40:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm looking for a piano for my daughter. She hasn't started lessons yet. I don't know a great deal about pianos. However, I found a seemingly 'good' deal in the local paper for a Story & Clark baby grand ($3K). Just tuned, keys replaced, good condition, etc. However, I don't know if Story & Clark is a 'better' brand, 'average' brand or 'mediocre' brand...Please help.

Subject: Re: Used Baby Grand From: Granholm Bros To: Larry Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 17:15:44 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I'm looking for a piano for my daughter. She hasn't started lessons yet. I don't know a great deal about pianos. However, I found a seemingly 'good' deal in the local paper for a Story & Clark baby grand ($3K). Just tuned, keys replaced, good condition, etc. However, I don't know if Story & Clark is a 'better' brand, 'average' brand or 'mediocre' brand...Please help. --- I'm assuming from your description of the work done that this is an older piano. Story and Clark was an average brand, but in this case that's not as important as the piano's overall condition today. Hire an independent piano tech to look the piano over. If he or she gives it a 'thumbs up,' this would probably be an adequate piano for a beginner, assuming it is tuned and properly regulated. If this piano doesn't work out, keep the tech's card handy and get assistance from him or her as you continue your search for a piano. That way, you'll be sure about what you're getting, and you'll avoid unpleasant and expensive surprises after your purchase. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Used Baby Grand From: Larry To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 16:03:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: THANKS so much for responding. And you're right, I have contacted a tech.

Subject: Re: Used Baby Grand From: Larry To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 16:01:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Water stain From: sara To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 12, 1999 at 13:28:35 (EDT) Email Address: salomons@ptinet.net Message: I have a piano that has a water stain. anyone know how to get rid of that?

Subject: Piano Age From: Bruce Colwill To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 23:03:16 (EDT) Email Address: bcolwill@ca.ibm.com Message: Would anyone know where to find the age of a piano manufactured by the D.W. Karn company of Woodstock, Ontario, Canada? It has serial number 9038 and quite sure from family history that it is more than 50 years old.

Subject: Re: Piano Age From: Granholm Bros To: Bruce Colwill Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 17:08:21 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Would anyone know where to find the age of a piano manufactured by the D.W. Karn company of Woodstock, Ontario, Canada? It has serial number 9038 and quite sure from family history that it is more than 50 years old. --- According to the Pierce Piano Atlas, based on the number you posted, this piano was built sometime between 1890 and 1895. John

Subject: Must Read - Alfred Brendel From: David Burton To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 03:43:24 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: For all pianists and piano technicians; read what thsi pianist is saying about the craft of piano tuning and voicing. Clearly the piano tech professions are in need of a status upgrade. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/essays7.html Alfred Brendel www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/essays7.html

Subject: Re: Must Read - Alfred Brendel From: bobb To: David Burton Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 14:04:15 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Upon reading the Brendel thing, I had three reactions: 1. This guy is not a likable human being. His remarks about piano technicians (whether or not they contain a grain of truth) have a nasty edge to them, which is surpassed only by his gratuitous and frankyly disgusting comparison of the Jews to the Nazis in his article on Furtwangler (at the same URL). 2. I was not, however, sure whether he wanted pianists to voice their own pianos, or to develop enough expertise in voicing as to be able to communicate with piano technicians as they voice. He seemed to be inconsistent with regard to his position on this. 3)Finally (and this is mainly a question), I was surprised that Brendel sees voicing as properly restricted to evening out the dynamics across notes. I have always thought of voicing as also involving the tone quality (e.g. sweet vs. pungent). Specifically, Brendel takes as a postulate that voicing should/would not involve taking the brightness out of the treble, at least on a concert grand. Any reactions?

Subject: Re: Must Read - Alfred Brendel From: Cork To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 15:57:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For all pianists and piano technicians; read what thsi pianist is saying about the craft of piano tuning and voicing. Clearly the piano tech professions are in need of a status upgrade. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/2192/essays7.html --- David, thanks for posting that very interesting site. It contains much thought-provoking material. Regarding the comments on technicians, please note that the essay was written 25 years ago. Much has changed in the interim: the general standard of pianos has improved, led by the Japanese mass production lines (I think everyone would agree that even Steinway's quality is now higher than it was in 1974); the Piano Technicians Guild has established minimum acceptable criteria for accreditation as an RPT, holds superb national and regional conventions in which leading technicians share knowledge and instruct others in technique, and publishes a very fine journal with technical articles to continue the education of members; the Internet has enabled the creation of a number of forums for technicians to share knowledge (I know of at least four); and as a result, many of the questionable practices of the 60s and 70s have been debunked. With all respect due to an artist of his immense stature, I must say Brendel's thought of concert pianists learning to voice their own hammers is one of the more humorous things I've read recently. I believe it would prove a great boon for hammer manufacturers if a significant percentage of pianists attempted it, because the replacement hammer business would zoom. Most pianists (amateur or professional) have extremely limited knowledge of the instrument they play. I heartily agree that everyone would gain tremendously if that situation were corrected; indeed, I think anyone who learned just how long it takes to master the fine art of voicing would leave it to the professionals to do properly. With regards, Cork

Subject: Re: Must Read - Alfred Brendel From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 23:38:17 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, thanks much for the great link! Cork, very good observation as concerns Alfred Brendel's 'personal voicing' idea. If all pianists were to try voicing their own instruments, they would certainly gain a greater respect for their technician--. I'm own pianist who has gained a great deal of respect for my technician; he has shared a great number of techniques and ideas concerning voicing with me. I learned that I had a pretty darn good ear but I know I will never attempt to voice my own instrument; that is an art in and of itself! regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Must Read - Alfred Brendel From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 08:30:59 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Yes, I too found Brendel's ideas about a pianist voicing their own piano a bit odd. He was probably voicing (pardon) his frustrations over not having adequate (for him) pianos at various locales where he performed. Yes, I would also have to agree that the Asian piano makers have made a contribution to improving the quality of competative pianos as the Asians did for automobiles. And just as their auto products have improved over the years so have their pianos. A lot has improved over the past 25 years especially in regards to new pianos. But I have been amazed at the variety of piano available today. And the renaissance in piano rebuilding is fascinating as well. With a combination of knowing what one wants, patience, and a few lucky breaks, one can have an almost 'custom made' rebuilt piano with a soundboard, action and hammers all to personal spec. There certainly is a lot of talent out there devoted to the craft and art of piano making and rebuilding. The comparison to automobiles is I think not too far fetched.

Subject: Historical Information From: Clifford S Knigfht To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 11, 1999 at 04:18:36 (EDT) Email Address: winner@satcom.net.au Message: Is there someone out there who can tell me when, where etc piano serial number 6191, thought to be a Hebel Lechleiter. I would like to know when iy was imported into Aistralia and from where

Subject: Finding Used Piano via Internet From: Stasia To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 16:55:44 (EDT) Email Address: stasiav@resourceinternational.com Message: In previous posts, I've seen mention of internet sites to locate used pianos. I am aware of the piano mart, country pianos & pianoexchange sites as well as Piano World's classifieds. Are there any others out there that I'm missing? (I've also been supplementing my web searches with checks -via the web-- of 'newspaper' classifieds in a 100/150 mile radius.)

Subject: Re: Finding Used Piano via Internet From: bsquared To: Stasia Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 18:26:38 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I would be awfully careful; I was tricked by one of these 'country piano' places. If you don't play the piano extensively to your complete satisfaction *and* have it thoroughly checked out by a certified technician of *your* choosing, forget it. Get a written guarantee of some sort. And never choose a place that is far enough from your home that you will not be able to go and give them hell in person, or that you will not be able to have the company come and prepare (repair?) the piano to your satisfaction. In general, there are fine rebuilders, but there are also many incompetent ones. And, I'm sorry to say (forgive me folks), the piano business is *the* dirtiest one I have experienced. Used cars have treated me better. (I am not familiar with drugs, gambling, and prostitution; they may be worse).

Subject: Do u know this site? From: Martin Fleet To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 17:54:38 (EDT) Email Address: m.fleet@hotmail.com Message: I've just found what looks to me like a new site selling sheet music. They seem to have hit the right angle when it comes to sheet music, and categorizing it in a logically way. I've been searching so long for 'Hanging Gardens' of Hiroyuki Ozawa and I finally found it with a LOT of other nice stuff. Have anyone heard about this site: www.amazingmusicworld.com http://www.amazingmusicworld.com is it yet another 'amazon' company? Cheers Martin

Subject: Re: Do u know this site? From: Freddy larson To: Martin Fleet Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 18:00:50 (EDT) Email Address: f.larsen@e-box.dk Message: I've just found what looks to me like a new site selling sheet music. They seem to have hit the right angle when it comes to sheet music, and categorizing it in a logically way. I've been searching so long for 'Hanging Gardens' of Hiroyuki Ozawa and I finally found it with a LOT of other nice stuff. Have anyone heard about this site: www.amazingmusicworld.com http://www.amazingmusicworld.com is it yet another 'amazon' company? Cheers Martin --- just checked it out recently. looks pretty cool nice selection doesn't look like an amazon biz to me.... found some other stufff in there too such as guitar music and woodwind

Subject: Re: Do u know this site? From: Andy Chesterfield To: Freddy larson Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 18:08:46 (EDT) Email Address: chesterandy@hotmail.com Message: I've just found what looks to me like a new site selling sheet music. They seem to have hit the right angle when it comes to sheet music, and categorizing it in a logically way. I've been searching so long for 'Hanging Gardens' of Hiroyuki Ozawa and I finally found it with a LOT of other nice stuff. Have anyone heard about this site: www.amazingmusicworld.com http://www.amazingmusicworld.com is it yet another 'amazon' company? Cheers Martin --- just checked it out recently. looks pretty cool nice selection doesn't look like an amazon biz to me.... found some other stufff in there too such as guitar music and woodwind --- I just love those midi samples that comes with every title

Subject: Piano Lessons From: Dana Minor To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 19:08:15 (EDT) Email Address: dana.val@juno.com Message: We are planning on piano leesons for our eight year old. Which is better lessons in the home or in a school type setting with other students or does it matter?

Subject: Re: Piano Lessons From: Cork To: Dana Minor Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 09:20:07 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: We are planning on piano leesons for our eight year old. Which is better lessons in the home or in a school type setting with other students or does it matter? --- I agree with Jason; for a child of that age private lessons are generally best. My five-year-old is in two classes a week: one private and one with a group. It works well for younger kids, but by eight a child easily can handle the direct attention one gets in private lessons. Cork

Subject: Re: Piano Lessons From: Jason To: Dana Minor Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 15:54:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, I'm 16 years old and have been playing the piano since I was 7. I recommand getting a private teacher, usually your son would have to go to her home for lessons. I don't like the school-type setting because the enviroment is less friendly and the teacher might not pay as much attention to the kids. (You don't get the personal attention)

Subject: What to buy From: Clinton Hallman To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 23:21:17 (EDT) Email Address: challman@netmcr.com Message: Our 7 year old son took his first piano lesson last week and we are wondering what to do about a piano. We have ruled out a keyboard and want to purchase an upright piano. We are somewhat intrigued by a brand called Samick. It appears to be a good deal for the $$$. The other model we are considering is a Yamaha M450. Can anyone offer any thoughts on these or any other brands that we should consider. We probably will rent for six months to see how things go before committing to a purchase. We have done a fair amount of research in our encyclopedia and on the Internet regarding the technical aspects of pianos. We want to stay away from used.

Subject: Re: What to buy From: Cork To: Clinton Hallman Date Posted: Tues, Aug 10, 1999 at 09:05:46 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our 7 year old son took his first piano lesson last week and we are wondering what to do about a piano. We have ruled out a keyboard and want to purchase an upright piano. We are somewhat intrigued by a brand called Samick. It appears to be a good deal for the $$$. The other model we are considering is a Yamaha M450. Can anyone offer any thoughts on these or any other brands that we should consider. We probably will rent for six months to see how things go before committing to a purchase. We have done a fair amount of research in our encyclopedia and on the Internet regarding the technical aspects of pianos. We want to stay away from used. --- I highly recommend you purchase a copy of 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine. It is a very good consumer's guide to buying a new or used piano, and is available from most major bookstores or directly from Fine on his website. The last edition was published in 1994, I believe, and Fine also publishes a supplement each year that covers changes since then. The supplement is only available from his website, and includes 'standard' prices for virtually every model sold in the U.S. The website is www.tiac.net/users/pianobk, if memory serves; and there is also a link to his site from Piano World. The Korean brands, Samick and Young Chang, are not considered to attain the quality level set by the Japanese firms of Yamaha and Kawai (and Boston, made by Kawai for Steinway). However, many people believe that the Koreans offer an acceptable level of quality and a very attractive price. Fine's book will be a pretty good guide in helping you understand the differences among the brands. In addition to the names above, you should consider Charles Walter, Baldwin, and Petrof. Also, I would recommend you reconsider your decision to exclude used instruments. The cardinal rule with used pianos is to have them checked out by an independent piano technician prior to purchase. If you follow that rule, used pianos will offer the highest value for the dollar. For example, for the price of a new console piano, you should be able to find an equivalent quality used studio or upright. Rgds, Cork

Subject: D.H. BALDWIN From: TC To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 22:19:41 (EDT) Email Address: toddc@mibor.net Message: Wondering if anyone knows who made the D.H. Baldwin that was their 125 anniversary model (1862-1987). This piano has MP 50229 stamped under the music desk. It is either a 5'2' or 5'3'.

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: David Burton To: TC Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 02:08:57 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: The original name of the company was D. H. Baldwin, named after its founder Dwight Hamilton Baldwin. Hamilton pianos are also a trademark name of Baldwin. About 1889 the name of the company was changed to Baldwin Piano Co. The D. H. Baldwin however is an imported piano with the Baldwin name. They are built by Samick. There is nothing 'Baldwin' about it. In fact these pianos have a reputation for being rather poor quality Asian pianos. Too bad Baldwin allowed the full name of their founder to be dragged through the mud. But it happens in piano building as other industries.

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: ben To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 09:01:48 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo30@hotmail.com Message: i heard quite alot abt the samick line of pianos claiming that the [parts r imported from germany and assembled in korea...is it true??does this affect the quality of the piano???and how would u evalutate samick pianos?? thanx

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: David Burton To: ben Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 09:41:16 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: i heard quite alot abt the samick line of pianos claiming that the [parts r imported from germany and assembled in korea...is it true??does this affect the quality of the piano???and how would u evalutate samick pianos?? thanx --- Well yes it would be true, but it may not be the whole story. One can start with excellent parts and still end up with a mess. Just ask any reputable piano rebuilder who has ever had the displeasure to see an amateur's work. You know we often forget that people build pianos and that it is people with their skill and know how that know what to do to build a piano and that in order to develop the know how to build a piano that there must be a whole culture behind it. Am I saying something perhps a bit unpopular? Yes. Is there any basis for my suggestion that certain people may build a better piano than certain other people? If the best piano you have ever played was an American Steinway. It was built in New York. Do New Yorkers know more about building pianos than Koreans? Answer these questions for yourself. I wont. Yeah they get those great German actions and put a European sounding name on their product, why? And when all is said and done you have a piano, especially a new one, that is a reflection of what quality level you can afford.

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: ben To: David Burton Date Posted: Tues, Aug 03, 1999 at 09:29:41 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo30@hotmail.com Message: i know that korean manufactuerers claims that they have all the 'best' quality german parts put into their pianos and name them after some 'german' sounding brand name like 'weinberg' and so on and so fourth. so, i decided to try out one of weinberg's grand pianos( by the way,,anyone heard of this brand?)..it was a complete diaster.. i bought a 6'1 grand ,n within 2 mths,,i traded it in for a kawai rx-6..let me tell u honestly.. korean pianos have a deep n very mellow sound unlike germans.but the most diasterous things tat these koreans neglected was the response n action of the grand piano.my weinberg was not at all responsive.i had a very hard n difficul;t time trying 2 play one of beethoven's sonatas.the problem was i was suppose to play the piece in a swift n agile manner but the piano jus can;t satisfy my needs.. i tell u,, don;t ever trust korean manufacturer's claims to have standard that is superior to the german's. my cousin bought a samick 5'3 baby grand n he kept it for 8 yrs coz he liked the sound of the piano..after that,,the piano kept giving him problems.he was so fustrated that he sold it off n bought a kawai.from that day onwards, my cousin n i had a very bad impression of korean pianos..does anyone agrees with me???

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: David Burton To: ben Date Posted: Tues, Aug 03, 1999 at 19:17:06 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Making acoustic pianos is a highly competitive business. The market is growing but not greatly and there's lots of competition and a reasonable supply of good rebuildable stock out there. But a lot of growth in market interest in pianos is in Asia. If the Koreans are going to stay in the game they will have to get their quality up to at least that of Japan's or drop out. There may be good pianos made in Korea right now, I wouldn't want to say or imply that there are not. For instance, I have played some nice Young Changs lately. However whenever anyone mentions a good brand of piano known to be made in Germany for instance, it is usually expected that the instrument will meet minimum requirements. In most cases they exceed the average. Give the Koreans some more time and they may gain the same reputation as the Japanese have now or they may drop out of it. But of course with the reputation the prices rise accordingly.

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: ben To: David Burton Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 05:48:12 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo30@hotmail.com Message: yup.i agree with you..but i am quite confused with young chang pianos. you said that they were made in koprea but it is said that it is made in america..can u clarify..???

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: Cork To: ben Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 09:09:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: yup.i agree with you..but i am quite confused with young chang pianos. you said that they were made in koprea but it is said that it is made in america..can u clarify..??? --- Young Chang is a Korean firm; their primary manufacturing facilities are in Korea, but I believe they now have some facilities in China and Indonesia as well.

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: ben To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 23:53:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: o.k..but aren't they an american company as shown in the website??

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: Cork To: ben Date Posted: Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 08:50:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: This thread has become somewhat confusing (at least for me; David may have a handle on it). Young Chang is a Korean company. They may have a US marketing subsidiary (Young Chang America, or something) whose website you've seen (as do Yamaha, Kawai, etc.), but they are still a Korean corporation with hq's in South Korea. They also make pianos for a number of other companies but with different labels. Baldwin is a US corporation. If a grand has a 'Baldwin' label on it, it was made in the US. If it has a 'D.H. Baldwin' label, it was either made by Kawai (1970s, I believe) or Young Chang. 'Chickering' is a label used by Baldwin for US-made inexpensive grands. They also market a piano made by Samick in Korea whose label escapes me at this time (Oh, yes, I think they are now using the "Wurlitzer" label for this). Baldwin no longer markets a piano with a D.H. Baldwin label. Hope that enlightened rather than confused. Cork

Subject: Re: D.H. BALDWIN From: David Burton To: ben Date Posted: Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 03:14:44 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: o.k..but aren't they an american company as shown in the website?? --- Yes Baldwin Piano Co. is an American company. But what we have all been saying in one way or another (see remarks by me and others regarding Knabe, Ibach and D. H. Baldwin) that in this case not all Baldwins are Baldwins. It has always been a buyer beware market and you do get what you pay for. The best bargains are in many respects properly rebuilt older pianos, which were the real thing to begin with. Another thing; I do occasionally want to say to many piano buyers out there that they are probably throwing their money away by buying grand pianos which are too small; baby garnds and too small uprights; spinets and some consoles shorter than 48' in height. It is amazing what sorts of instruments one can find if one really takes time and effort to look. It is sometimes hard to resist the 'shiny', 'glassy' sounds of most of the Asian pianos, their apparent solid touch, and their appealing styles and lower price tags. But beware. Get that instument home, play it for a few months and years and some weariness may set in. It pays to look around and consider what it is that a good piano really is. Remember this; the best musical instruments are not only good investments, they are fine works of art. Well, I've said enough here, will have more to say on these subjects from time to time.

Subject: Go Dave! Go Ben! Go Dave! Go Ben! Go Cork? [nt] From: Jason To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 22:30:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Are these prices fair? From: Karra To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 16:50:54 (EDT) Email Address: karrap@aol.com Message: I am looking at four different pianos. I don't know if the prices I'm being quoted are fair. There is a wide range: 1925 5'2' Steinway, fully restored, for $24,000 1979 Balwin 5'2' for $11,375 1910 Schiedmayer, fully restored, $24,000 1910 Knabe, $8,995 plus cost of restoration Anyone know which of these I should go for?

Subject: Re: Are these prices fair? From: dimitri. To: Karra Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 16:00:42 (EDT) Email Address: piano@village.uunet.be Message: Hi Kara, I'm a Belgium dealer and i wood sertenley take the Steinway. If it is in good condition(good restored)it must last a liftime.But keep in a good tempratuur and tune it 2 a year ath 440 hertz.Other questions,email me. Dimitri. P.S. sorry for the poor English.

Subject: Re: Are these prices fair? From: David Burton To: Karra Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 14:14:27 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I'm going to strongly agree with Jim and Cork. Don't go for any of these. 1925 5'2' Steinway, fully restored, for $24,000 A typical Steinway hype. The piano is too small. The price is typically outrageous. 1979 Balwin 5'2' for $11,375 Ditto this, the piano is too small. This price is also ridiculous. 1910 Schiedmayer, fully restored, $24,000 Have no idea of the size. But I bet it's also small. What do these dealers take us for? 1910 Knabe, $8,995 plus cost of restoration Must have been a big Knabe, but even so what do they think they're doing? Run don't walk away from these opportunities to get your money stolen! When will people ever learn that a nice pretty baby grand or a too small console or spinet is just a toy not a real instrument? Don't waste your money! Buy a real piano for real money.

Subject: Re: Are these prices fair? From: Jim To: Karra Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 09:04:59 (EDT) Email Address: lobsenzj@alpa.org Message: I am looking at four different pianos. I don't know if the prices I'm being quoted are fair. There is a wide range: 1925 5'2' Steinway, fully restored, for $24,000 1979 Balwin 5'2' for $11,375 1910 Schiedmayer, fully restored, $24,000 1910 Knabe, $8,995 plus cost of restoration Anyone know which of these I should go for? --- Karra -- Those prices strike me as being out of line. There are terrific, larger pianos from top makers -- Steinway, Mason and Hamlin and others, both new and used (depending on the brand) -- that can be purchased for $24,000. As for the Knabe, while Knabe at various points in name made a fine piano, I have seen recently rebuilt 5'8' vintage Knabes go for $5,000. Please contact me via e-mail if you want more specific assistance. Jim

Subject: Re: Are these prices fair? From: Cork To: Karra Date Posted: Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 21:18:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am looking at four different pianos. I don't know if the prices I'm being quoted are fair. There is a wide range: 1925 5'2' Steinway, fully restored, for $24,000 1979 Balwin 5'2' for $11,375 1910 Schiedmayer, fully restored, $24,000 1910 Knabe, $8,995 plus cost of restoration Anyone know which of these I should go for? --- Well, I wouldn't buy a 5'2' piano, period. About the best thing that can be said about the Steinway S is that it has a Steinway name on it. Ditto the small Baldwin. How big is the Knabe, and how much needs to be done to it? cv

Subject: moving a piano From: Katherine To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 09:59:47 (EDT) Email Address: katsquill@hotmail.com Message: I need to move a piano approximately 60 miles. I'm hiring a mover, but WHAT TYPE OF QUESTIONS does one ask while asking for moving quotes? Having never done this - I want to make sure I don't overlook an obvious question, thus opening the door to potential issues if something should go amiss. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Kingsbury piano From: I Walters To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 01:12:44 (EDT) Email Address: icwalters@webtv.net Message: I have an oak Kingsbury piano. On the harp, there is a 'decal' which says it was made for the Columbia Exposition of 1892. I wondered if someone knows anything about it. Is it rare?

Subject: Kingsbury piano From: I Walters To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 09, 1999 at 00:59:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Mehlin piano From: ChrisY To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 03, 1999 at 11:52:25 (EDT) Email Address: ChrisCJY@aol.com Message: I have a Paul G. Mehlin & Sons ,'Patented Inverted Grand' (upright) piano circa 1909. It is in good to very good original (non-restored) condition. Could someone give me a rough idea of what this piano is worth?

Subject: Re: Mehlin piano From: David Burton To: ChrisY Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 14:51:46 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Do what Cork says. A qualified piano tech can tell you and show you exactly what needs fixing on a piano of that vintage. But I have seen and played two pianos of this vintage and make, they seem to have come in a variety of cabinets too. Mehlins are one of the brands of uprights that seem to attract rebuilder's interests. I played a remarkable one, very tall, with new action in it, completely rebuilt, looked as new as the day it was made, incredible sound! Big, lush, played like a dream, not like a grand but close. Price around $6,000. That's about all they're worth fully rebuilt. But they far exceed the qualities of most of the newer pianos selling for that kind of money or considerably more. To be frank I'd choose one over a Steinway studio grand selling for more than $12,000.

Subject: Re: Mehlin piano From: Cork To: ChrisY Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 09:17:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a Paul G. Mehlin & Sons ,'Patented Inverted Grand' (upright) piano circa 1909. It is in good to very good original (non-restored) condition. Could someone give me a rough idea of what this piano is worth? --- Chris, I'm copying my response to a similar question here: Many uprights from that period were very fine instruments, but all pianos have components that wear out over time. Only an on-site inspection by a qualified professional technician can help you determine the current value of your piano; no one can do it over the Internet. Also, value will vary to some extent by local market conditions. Try to find a local piano tech that has knowledge of uprights and have them inspect your instrument. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Small Grand Piano From: Pete Feeney To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 10:17:33 (EDT) Email Address: pete@rd-co.com Message: My Mom has a very small grand piano, only 45' long with only 73 total keys, 43 ivories/30 ebonies. She has owned it for 32 years and was told by the previous owner it was the piano used at the old Lyric theater in downtown Indpls. for the silent movies. Serial # is 231897 but no other info. Any help with age or maker? Thank you.

Subject: Re: Small Grand Piano From: David Burton To: Pete Feeney Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 14:41:15 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Well I'll tell you honestly Pete, whatever it is, it ain't worth much botherin with if you want to fix it up. I wouldn't waste my money. If it has sentimental value, wonderful. But it is too small, doesn't have a full 88 keys keyboard. The rule is that you could get away with an 85 key keyboard if the piano is a Steinway concert grand from 1875 or so, but yours isn't and has only 73 keys! My friend what you have is a toy. Toy pianos get toy piano prices if you can even sell them.

Subject: confused From: ron To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 19:34:32 (EDT) Email Address: r.doucet@ns.sympatico.ca Message: Our daughter is seven years old and has been taking piano lessons for four years. She is currently using a Yamaha touch-sensitive keyboard with 36 keys. Do you think she is ready for a piano and if so, is a digital piano sufficient?

Subject: Re: confused From: Cork To: ron Date Posted: Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 21:15:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Our daughter is seven years old and has been taking piano lessons for four years. She is currently using a Yamaha touch-sensitive keyboard with 36 keys. Do you think she is ready for a piano and if so, is a digital piano sufficient? --- Yes, and no. If she wants to learn to play piano, she needs a piano. If she wants to learn to play digital keyboards, then a keyboard with at least 76 keys would be useful. You cannot reproduce the touch and sound of a piano with todays digital technology; certainly not for the player. Cork

Subject: Re: confused From: antmaril@aol.com To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 23:39:47 (EDT) Email Address: Mat D. Message: If your daughter is progressing well, by all means buy her a piano. Be sure to read some of the posts found here to learn more about choosing an instrument--most important: buy from a reputable dealer & if you are buying used, have a qualified technician look at it to advise. I agree with Cork--no digital piano will compare to the real thing (I work with digital keyboards all day by profession, but my instrument of choice is my Mason & Hamlin BB). best of luck, Mat D.

Subject: Re: confused From: David Burton To: antmaril@aol.com Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 14:32:37 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 'my instrument of choice is my Mason & Hamlin BB' Mat D. You lucky devil! Hey I guess I'd brag a bit too if I owned one of the best pianos in the world. But seriously, what all the other posters have said is true about digital vs. real pianos. I have one of the best digital pianos ever made with a full weighted 88 key keyboard and I hardly ever play it. I prefer my (not even in the same class as Mat D's) acoustic piano. Now if I were faced with having to decide and it is sort of a decision based on your child's interest and talent more than anything else, whether to make her into a musician, a hazardous route for anyone but one that pays tremendous rewards all throughout life, and I were considering which piano to buy, top of my list would be, believe it or not, a Baldwin Acrosonic console not less than 48' tall, used, about 25-35 years old, fully reconditioned. Make sure the hammers are not worn out. You might luck out and get one for under $1,500. There are many places on the internet that I have seen them. Get hold of a good local piano tech and see what they might find for you. But one consideration stands out more than any other in any choice; make sure the piano stays in tune. A child will not develop their skills or want to practice on a piano that is not in tune. After a year or so, consider having the piano revoiced down, mellowed by a qualified voicing technician. You may be startled to hear and so will your child what things can be done with some of these pianos. If she has developed any repartoire she will be delighted with how well she sounds and so will you.

Subject: To buy or not to buy From: MBrooks To: All Date Posted: Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 23:42:09 (EDT) Email Address: mindy.brooks@mortgagefamily.com Message: I have been offered the opportunity to buy the piano detailed below. The person selling it is a friend's trusted piano tuner. What should I ask and is it a good deal? Thanks! Shoemaker Grand 1936 --Plantation Walnut --5 1/2 foot --New keys and new bench --Action rebuilt --5 year parts and warranty --1st tuning free --price:$3,700.00

Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy From: David Burton To: MBrooks Date Posted: Sun, Aug 08, 1999 at 14:05:24 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: It's probably an ok piano for the money, not a bad brand, but it is in my opinion rather short. If you like the way it sounds and plays buy it, but it isn't likely to hold much value. See my other posts. Size matters. I have made the cut off point 5'7'. Anything smaller than that I wouldn't be interested in.

Subject: Arion Piano From: toe To: All Date Posted: Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 23:56:41 (EDT) Email Address: toe@netnitco.net Message: I've recently aquired a upright piano made by the Arion piano company of Chicago. Can anyone tell me if the company is still in business, how old my piano may be and what it may be worth. Thanx.

Subject: Re: Arion Piano From: Cork To: toe Date Posted: Sat, Aug 07, 1999 at 21:20:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've recently aquired a upright piano made by the Arion piano company of Chicago. Can anyone tell me if the company is still in business, how old my piano may be and what it may be worth. Thanx. --- No, the company is not in business. If you post a serial number, someone with a Pierce Piano Atlas may be able to give you a manufacturing date. And the value of any old piano can only be determined by a professional technician after an on-site visit. Call a local RPT for an assessment of your instrument. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Sohmer From: Rob To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 13:30:00 (EDT) Email Address: bass716@aol.com Message: I have a Sohmer & Co. piano that according to the serial number 69041 was built in 1928. There is also an alpha numeric embossed on the harp part (m42a10). Does anyone know the significance of the number? Also, would anyone know a ballpark value on this piano which is in excellent condition in all respects. Thanks, Rob

Subject: Re: Sohmer From: Rob To: Rob Date Posted: Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 11:35:00 (EDT) Email Address: bass716@aol.com Message: By the way it is a baby grand piano which was possibly rebuilt.

Subject: Re: Sohmer From: Rob To: Rob Date Posted: Fri, Aug 06, 1999 at 11:37:20 (EDT) Email Address: bass716@aol.com Message:

Subject: Re: Sohmer From: Rich To: Rob Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 19:28:17 (EDT) Email Address: RicDfenbek@AOL.com Message: Rob, You need to provide a lot more info about the piano. Such as is it a grand piano (how big?) or upright, console etc. What is the condition? Has it been rebuilt? Even after obtaining this info the best thing you should do is get a piano technician to evaluate the piano and give you an estimate. Only then will you have a good idea as to it's worth. Sohmer's were known for making excellent upright pianos in their day. Rich

Subject: What do I have? From: Kenzi Gustason To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 23:26:33 (EDT) Email Address: dgustason@jps.net Message: I just bought an antique piano and have spent the last 3 hours looking on the internet for ANY information on it. The name on it says: Mozart Piano Co. New York. It needs a lot of work but I only paid $25 for it and it's beautiful if nothing else! Any info. is apprieciated! Thanks!

Subject: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: ngu To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 19:57:06 (EDT) Email Address: ngu_pham@yahoo.com Message: I just got a new medium grand piano (Petrof IV, 5'8). Every time I press the left pedal on the piano, I can feel the keyboard is shifted from left to right. Is this really normal for the piano? BTW, I know nothing about piano and I don't even play piano. I bought this piano for my kids. Thanks in advance for your help. Ngu

Subject: Re: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: Stephen To: ngu Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 11:42:49 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message: I don't know if someone has already answered your question yet, but yes, it is completely normal for the keybed to move slightly when the left pedal is depressed. This pedal is called the una corda pedal and it is pushed when you want the sound of the piano to change to be a little mellower. When you push the left pedal down, the hammers are shifted over to the right so that they only strike part of the strings for each note AND also by shifting the hammers over, the softer part of the hammer head actually comes in contact with the string--both things create a lighter more mellow sound.

Subject: Re: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: Stephen To: ngu Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 11:38:55 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message:

Subject: Re: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: Cork To: ngu Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 20:16:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just got a new medium grand piano (Petrof IV, 5'8). Every time I press the left pedal on the piano, I can feel the keyboard is shifted from left to right. Is this really normal for the piano? BTW, I know nothing about piano and I don't even play piano. I bought this piano for my kids. Thanks in advance for your help. Ngu --- Yes, on quality grands the left pedal is the 'una corda' pedal, which, when depressed, shifts the entire keyboard and action slightly to the right. This enables the hammers to hit only two of the three strings which comprise a single note (a trichord unison) in much of the piano, producing a softer and different tone. The una corda pedal also has a similar effect in the lower notes, even those comprised of a single wound string because the hammer strikes the string at an offset. You've selected an outstanding instrument for your children; protect your investment by having it maintained at least twice a year (and preferably 4 times in the first year) by a qualified technician. (sorry for the editorial!) Cork

Subject: Re: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: ngu To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 12:32:45 (EDT) Email Address: ngu_pham@yahoo.com Message: Thanks Cork and Stephen for your help on this issue. This thread is very helpful for me, at the beginer, to acquire the knowledge/understanding about the piano. Ngu

Subject: Re: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: Cork To: ngu Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 14:23:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ngu, If you are interested in how the piano mechanisms work, Larry Fine does a creditable job of explaining them in his book called 'The Piano Book'. Since you've already purchased your piano, you might just want to check the book out of your local library to read the relevant sections. Cork

Subject: Re: key board is shifted when press the pedal From: ngu To: all Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 12:26:57 (EDT) Email Address: ngu_pham@yahoo.com Message:

Subject: Piano moving From: Stephen To: Technicians Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 11:51:06 (EDT) Email Address: b16309@aol.com Message: My parents are getting rid of a 5' grand which is about 69 years old. Instead of them giving it away or selling it, I am going to take it instead. I have one a piano already--a Yamaha 6', but it has always been a dream of mine to have a second--even if it isn't quite as good. The only problem is, the cost of having piano movers move it 550 miles is too expensive for me to afford. I am therefore going to have to go get it myself. I have watched mine been moved many times and am familiar with the process, however, i don't feel competent enough to do it myself. What i plan to do is have piano movers there pack it up and put it on the truck I am going to rent (enclosed) and then have my technician here set it up? Does this sound OK? Is there anything else I should do?

Subject: Boyd Pianos From: Gemma To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 09:33:31 (EDT) Email Address: pianos@lpnwm.com Message: Does anyone know where it is possible to get information on a Boyd piano made in the 1920s/1930s? All I know is that it was made by Boyd Ltd in London around this time, but am looking for some information on the piano and/or the maufacturers.

Subject: Ibach--are there (2) diff. companies? From: Mat D. To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 23:31:19 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Today I discovered the IBach website from Germany and they seem to make some marvelous pianos however, it seems I have also seen Korean-made Ibach pianos that look nothing like the beautiful German IBachs I saw. How is this possible?

Subject: Re: Ibach--are there (2) diff. companies? From: John D. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Thurs, Aug 05, 1999 at 00:55:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Today I discovered the IBach website from Germany and they seem to make some marvelous pianos however, it seems I have also seen Korean-made Ibach pianos that look nothing like the beautiful German IBachs I saw. How is this possible? --- Mat, From some of the information I've read, Ibach (along with many companies in W. Germany) ran into tough times in the early 90's and was forced to take some drastic action to survive. The action Ibach took was to enter into some kind of business arrangement with Daewoo of Korea. There are now two 'levels' of Ibach's: hand-built and production-line. The hand-built are supposed to meet the quality of the original German-built Ibach's. The production-line pianos don't use the same quality of materials as do the hand-built. And, as implied, a lot of the piano is machine made. Of course, the production-line pianos are considerably cheaper than the hand-built pianos. Ibach now offers a wide assortment of pianos along with a broad price-range. I've never played an Ibach made either in Germany or Korea. However, having lived in Germany for a few years, if a German says 'it will be of the same quality', I'd bet it would be! Later, John D.

Subject: Dorothy Doll Nobiling From: S Carson To: All Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 22:36:00 (EDT) Email Address: scarson@us.net Message: I lost track of my childhood piano teacher from San Antonio, Texas in the early 90s. Her name was Dorothy Doll Nobiling. For years she was the Dean of Curriculum of the National Guild of Piano Teachers. One year my Christmas card was returned for no forwarding address. She was advanced in years and may have gone to a nursing home. Does anyone know of her whereabouts? Or does anyone know how I reach the National Guild of Piano Teachers? I was unable to find a website for them.

Subject: Need Help with Value From: Kathi To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 15:01:30 (EDT) Email Address: canary57@gateway.net Message: I have a Fischer piano Serial # 207168 that I want to sell. I have no idea what the value could possibly be. Can anyone help me with an estimate, so I can get a fair price for it.

Subject: Re: Need Help with Value From: Rob To: Kathi Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 13:54:29 (EDT) Email Address: bass716@aol.com Message: Kathi, I would not rely too heavily on the prices given on the Pianoworld web page. First of all they are from 1986 and second of all. I was told my piano is worth upwards of 15 to 20k, and the highest price there is like 3,000. If you ask me they've got those prices set up for unsuspecting chumps. Talk to a reputable dealer and compare what is in a shop. Don't tell them you have the piano. Act like you are looking to buy that piano and see what they say about price. Also talk to a piano technician. Rob

Subject: Re: Need Help with Value From: Rob To: Kathi Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 13:50:09 (EDT) Email Address: bass716@aol.com Message:

Subject: Re: Need Help with Value From: Piano World To: Kathi Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 18:38:26 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Hi Kathi, We have an area on Piano World called: 'What's It Worth?' that is designed to help you establish the value of your piano. You might want to visit this page. http://www.pianoworld.com/value.htm Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm http://www.pianosupplies.com/

Subject: Becker 1913 From: Amber To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 21:43:32 (EDT) Email Address: chloe__@hotmail.com Message: I own a 1913 Becker Bros. Upright piano in excellent cond. can any one give me some information and the value of this piano. Thanks Amber

Subject: Re: Becker 1913 From: Cork To: Amber Date Posted: Wed, Aug 04, 1999 at 09:14:13 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I own a 1913 Becker Bros. Upright piano in excellent cond. can any one give me some information and the value of this piano. Thanks Amber --- Amber, Many uprights from that period were very fine instruments, but all pianos have components that wear out over time. Only an on-site inspection by a qualified professional technician can help you determine the current value of your piano; no one can do it over the Internet. Also, value will vary to some extent by local market conditions. Try to find a local piano tech that has knowledge of uprights and have them inspect your instrument. Rgds, Cork

Subject: schaeffer piano 1875 From: Lupe To: All Date Posted: Tues, Aug 03, 1999 at 18:20:09 (EDT) Email Address: mizcles@yahoo.com Message: I need help, anyone know any information on this type of piano: Diploma of Honor Schaeffer 1875 established Chicago 1878 exposition Paris

Subject: rebuilding my Starr upright grand From: Bilge Karacali To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 16:37:06 (EDT) Email Address: bkaraca2@eos.ncsu.edu Message: Hello, I recently acquired an upright grand piano made by Starr, probably 60-70 years old. Although the piano has a delicate sound, some part of the hammering system is damaged, and I want to replace the damaged section. The reason I'm posting this message is, now that I have been around to a few places, it appears that finding matching pieces for the damaged ones is not an easy job, even though possible because there are a few hammers and feets (if these are the correct terms for the pieces that I'm referring to) that look not so old. So my question is, does anyone have an idea on where I should look to find what I need? Thanks, ps: by hammers and feet, I'm referring to the many pieces that induct the hit from the keys to the strings.

Subject: Re: rebuilding my Starr upright grand From: Granholm Bros To: Bilge Karacali Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 20:31:38 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Hello, I recently acquired an upright grand piano made by Starr, probably 60-70 years old. Although the piano has a delicate sound, some part of the hammering system is damaged, and I want to replace the damaged section. The reason I'm posting this message is, now that I have been around to a few places, it appears that finding matching pieces for the damaged ones is not an easy job, even though possible because there are a few hammers and feets (if these are the correct terms for the pieces that I'm referring to) that look not so old. So my question is, does anyone have an idea on where I should look to find what I need? Thanks, ps: by hammers and feet, I'm referring to the many pieces that induct the hit from the keys to the strings. --- Have a piano technician inspect the piano. You'll find technicians in your area listed in the yellow pages under 'Piano Tuning and Repair' It would be wise to start with an idea of the piano's overall condition before you begin investing money in it, and you'll also learn what it will cost to put the instrument into good working condition. On your Starr, the tech should have on hand or be able to find all the replacement parts you need. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations Roseburg OR

Subject: Piano novice seeks answer From: Tim Drake To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 13:41:07 (EDT) Email Address: tdrake@gw.stcdio.org Message: Greetings! First off, I know nothing about pianos. Let this be known. I've always wanted one so that my children would be able to play. Secondly, I'm a man of little money. Finally, my question: I have the opportunity to get a Cable-Nelson piano (108820) for less than $300. It is in beautiful condition (has been stripped and restored). The sound board is cracked and it is missing the center pedal, but otherwise it looks like a beautiful instrument. Can anyone tell me if this is worth getting? It seems like an excellent opportunity, but being as ignorant about pianos as I am I would value the opinion of someone a bit more savvy than I. Help!

Subject: Re: Piano novice seeks answer From: Patti To: Tim Drake Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 15:12:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With a budget that low, you may want to consider a digital (electronic) piano. It's nothing like the real thing, but I think you would be far better off with a digital piano than with a sub-standard 'real' piano until you can afford better. You might be able to find a used digital piano for around $500. I'm not talking about one of those toy keyboards you might buy for about $100, but a good digital like Korg for example.

Subject: Re: Piano novice seeks answer From: maria To: Tim Drake Date Posted: Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 23:17:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi there - the cracked soundboard sounds like bad news. I totally agree with getting a piano technician to take a look at any piano you're interested in. Techs can be found in the yellow pages. I recently saw a used Yamaha U1 on sale second hand in a store, price tag was 4200 $ (Canadian) and I spent 45$ to have a tech look at it, and found out it wasn't worth more that 2000 and there had been lots of repair work done to it. It's really 'buyer beware' for second hand pianos. Happy hunting!!!

Subject: Re: Piano novice seeks answer From: David Burton To: maria Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 11:19:47 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Hi there - the cracked soundboard sounds like bad news. I totally agree with getting a piano technician to take a look at any piano you're interested in. Techs can be found in the yellow pages. I recently saw a used Yamaha U1 on sale second hand in a store, price tag was 4200 $ (Canadian) and I spent 45$ to have a tech look at it, and found out it wasn't worth more that 2000 and there had been lots of repair work done to it. It's really 'buyer beware' for second hand pianos. Happy hunting!!! --- Frankly, it's 'buyer beware' with new pianos too. Please see my post today, 'New Knabe - a Christian piano?'

Subject: Re: Piano novice seeks answer From: David Burton To: Tim Drake Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 23:50:12 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Tim, I don't like it. I put myself in your shoes, except that I know pianos, and I said 'nope I wouldn't buy it'. The middle pedal I might be able to get a technician to fix. Probably could if I really wanted. The cracked soundboard is something else again. It is an essential part of a piano, kind of like a chassie in a car. If it wont hold the engine, well, you're driving along and wham, the engine falls out. In the case of a piano, the sound will fall out, get deader and deader. Your kids wont want to play the damn thing. You'll not know why. Keep looking. $300 is a bit slim, but you can sometimes find real deals.

Subject: Re: Piano novice seeks answer From: John D. To: Tim Drake Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 17:48:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Greetings! First off, I know nothing about pianos. Let this be known. I've always wanted one so that my children would be able to play. Secondly, I'm a man of little money. Finally, my question: I have the opportunity to get a Cable-Nelson piano (108820) for less than $300. It is in beautiful condition (has been stripped and restored). The sound board is cracked and it is missing the center pedal, but otherwise it looks like a beautiful instrument. Can anyone tell me if this is worth getting? It seems like an excellent opportunity, but being as ignorant about pianos as I am I would value the opinion of someone a bit more savvy than I. Help! --- Tim, If I go with the assumption that the problems with the piano are limited to the missing middle pedal (rarely used anyway) and the cracked soundboard, it sounds like it may be worth getting. However, since you obviously want to be careful about what you are spending your money on, you probably should get a piano technician to take a quick look at it. I know your expectations for the instrument are not high, but if the piano can't hold a tune, needs a lot of work on the action or 'buzzes' because of the cracked soundboard, you may spend $300 on something that functions better as a piece of furniture than a piano. Hope this helps, John D.

Subject: Wegman From: MaryB.Denver To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 13:50:28 (EDT) Email Address: Soundspk@Yahoo.com Message: I have an Wegman Upright that was rebuilt in 1865. Anyone know anything about it or this brand name?

Subject: Wegman From: MaryB. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 13:49:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a Wegman upright that was Rebuilt in 1865. Does anyone know this brand? www.yahoo.com www.yahoo.com

Subject: Renner Actions: From: John D. To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 14:56:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Theres been a lot of discussion about piano actions in this forum recently, although one comment has raised some questions in my mind about Renner actions. Under one of the posts concerning Ibach pianos, the statement is made that the actions are 'astonishingly quick'. Ibach has a Renner action so why would its action be any quicker than some other piano with a Renner action? Another question, somewhat unrelated to the first, is what is the general consensus on Renner hammers? Are they as high quality as the actions are ruputed to be? Thanks in advance, John D.

Subject: Re: Renner Actions: From: David Burton To: John D. Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 02:44:27 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: The Renner actions are all made in Germany by a company that supplies these precision piano actions to a number of piano makers all over the world. They are renowned for their abilities to produce the maximum dynamics from very soft to very loud with the minimum of change in force applied to the piano keys. One test is the repetition; how fast can the same key be played. On a grand it is possible to get a very fast repetition without having the key rise all the way up to its starting position. Try this playing as soft as you can. The winner will be able to produce a clear repetition of the same note when playing very softly. There may be other factors that affect the touch of a piano, including the woods used for the keys, their weighting, etc. Some keys seem to be more resonant than others; as one plays one feels the tonal vibration back into the keys. Some people are more sensitive to this than others and it may actually bother them more than a more non-resonant key. I mentioned the astounding responsiveness of the Ibach pianos I had played. There was an almost instantaneous connection between my fingers and the hammers as they struck the strings, something that most good pianos will have, but which combined with the tonal characteristics of the Ibachs, including this resonant quality in the keys, produced, for me anyway, a very satisfying playing experience to say the least. The Grotrians came closest to this preference followed by the Bechsteins and Hamburg Steinways I have played. The Boesendorfers are also similar in the way they play and sound. I would suspect that any Renner action will perform as well or better than almost any other action in terms of responsiveness, to my fingers certainly superior to most Baldwins or other even cheaper actions, the Aeolian American actions that were made in Mexico during the fifties and sixties or even those on some Steinways in the same or later vintages. I'm trying to answer John D's post as best I can based on a visit I had to a huge Swiss piano store in Zurich where I literally started at the top and played down through four floors of excellent pianos. What a blast!! I understand that the Renner hammers are also quite well respected. Here there are a few varieties to choose from based on the types of cores and felts preferred. I guess this may have to do with how one wants the piano to sound as many posts have tried to indicate how important voicing can be in making a piano sound brighter or mellower depending on the softness or hardness of the hammer felts. Most good hammers I have seen are made of a dark hardwood either walnut or pear wood (somethimes erroneously called lime or linden). The specific density of this wood is supposed to affect the attack delivered to the strings.

Subject: Re: Renner Actions: From: mp To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 10:24:04 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: I wonder if anyone could tell me how the Czech actions made by Detoa (formerly Tofa) and used in some Petrof and Reiger-Kloss pianos stack up in the world of piano actions. Thanks

Subject: Valuation of Kawai GE-1 piano From: Ben Chi To: All Date Posted: Mon, Aug 02, 1999 at 03:55:39 (EDT) Email Address: benchi1@aol.com Message: Hello: My family purchased a Kawai GE-1 baby grand piano in 1986 in gloss black with matching piano chair. Since all of us are in college now, we are considering selling our piano, however, we are not sure of it's present value. In terms of physical appearances, it is in near mint to mint condition with the exception of just the bookstand which has lost most of it's lustre. However, that is an easily replaceable piece. It has been well maintained and cared for. Can someone please give me a range in value for this piano? The serial number is 1668180. Also, if anyone can point me towards a source of information concerning Kawai piano's in general, we would be most appreciative. Please email or post directly to this board. Thank you.

Subject: New Knabe - a Christian piano? From: David Burton To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 11:47:32 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: William Knabe is one of the most honored names in pianos. It has been dragged through many muddy changes since the onset of the Great Depression with everything from passable to ok quality for a sort of middle of the road piano since the days of its greatness before about 1930. For most of that period you'd have done much better with a 'Rodney Dangerfield' Baldwin. I had noticed that someone, Pianodisk, was resurrecting this name and attaching it to some pretty gaudy looking pianos, so I decided to do some research and got their nice glossy brochure including the insert describing their very nice looking Bubinga grand at 5'9'. On the back I discovered this quote, 'There is no better example of the servant leader than the Lord Jesus Christ. Our business is dedicated to Him and we have dedicated ourselves to modeling his example-' OK, so I am a Christian too, for what it's worth. I expect, among other things, some degree of honesty from my fellow Christians. On the soundboard of the new Knabe is the famous old decal and on it is the word 'Baltimore', the place where all the old classic Knabe pianos came from. But this is not true. These new Knabe pianos are made by Young Chang in Korea. Yes, the action may be Erard, the hammers may be walnut centers, the keys may be Sitka spruce like the soundboard, the strings may be German, the pinblock may be 17 layers of crosscut Maple, but the piano is not American made. How about the rim, the case, the tacky looking fallboards? Don't be fooled! Christian? Tell the truth. I found out that suggested retail prices for these Asian knockoffs of the real thing, that aren't, are $6,869 for the 48' upright, $16,739 for a 5'9' grand and $23,119 for a 6'10' grand, their current top of the line. OK, I began to think, what might I be able to buy for the same money in the rebuilt world of pianos from a real good reputable, Christian or otherwise, piano rebuilder? I might be able to get a better action, better pinblock, as good or better strings and scaling, customized just about any way I want and in a case and rim (for a grand) that might be made of better materials than those currently available in Korea. And there's those tacky fallboards on the new Knabes, sheesh! In an ad on the internet, I saw a 6'+ Ivers & Pond grand once for $14,500, what a steal! Buyer beware, even when buying a new piano. Know what you are buying. Don't go for any hype, especially the Christian thing. I frankly didn't like it and I'm a Christian!

Subject: Re: New Knabe - a Christian piano? From: antmaril@aol.com To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 19:15:06 (EDT) Email Address: Mat D. Message: My father always told me: 'don't believe everything you hear, and only half of what you see. If my memory is correct, The Burgett Brothers also made that statement part of their Mason & Hamlin brochure. I can't find my brochure at the moment but I'm pretty sure it was on there. In the case of Mason & Hamlin, it's all that their predecessors were; the Knabe is a different story.

Subject: Re: New Knabe - a Christian piano? From: David Burton To: antmaril@aol.com Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 20:55:26 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: In the case of Mason & Hamlin, it's all that their predecessors were; the Knabe is a different story. Yes, as far as I know and in this case have actually seen and played, oh man are the new M&H pianos great!, the BB is one of the best I've ever --- , but not Knabe. Too bad too, that such a fine name as Knabe gets this sort of treatment. Then there's George Steck. I still haven't found out what makes them so unique yet. I expect that they are a bunch of more cheap Asian too small grands and uprights. I guess I don't mind people advertising their Christianity, well I really do actually, it's like, if it's that important than the results will show don't you think? But we are talking pianos here. I'd buy a good piano from anyone. I don't care if they're a Buddhist, Hindu, Moslem, whatever. The point has always been a good instrument for the right price. Now I suppose that the new Knabe is......a fancy Young Chang. Well, why don't they just say so? Because they couldn't get the money for them? I don't know. It seems to me that when you add it all up, even if you are turning them out like.....pizza, there are still some things that are going to cost what they cost and will keep the base price of a new piano where it is. Where I really begin to question the logic of piano pricing is in one particular brand.......you guessed it, Steinway. For the money I'd plunk down for an average size Steinway I could have a Mason & Hamlin or Baldwin that I could make into virtually a better sounding piano than any Steinway. I guess at this point as far as new pianos are concerned my opinions are that both the high and low end have nerve, Steinway for charging so much for their decal and Knabe for charging so much for theirs.

Subject: Re: New Knabe - a Christian piano? From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 23:49:14 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, I believe that one of the reasons that it is so great to have a finacially strong company (pianodisc) handling Mason & Hamlin in the way they do is that Mason & Hamlin pianos are allowed to survive as one of only a handful of piano companies that are made in the traditional way (my technician thinks the new BB's are even better than the old thanks to the Burgett's visionary thinking); Steinway is another and there are a few more but I am particularly happy since I am one of the lucky people to own one of these M&H BB grands. As I've mentioned before, I have nothing at all against Steinway because they make an excellent piano but built into their pricing structure is all the marketing and Steinway Artist Program costs etc. With Mason & Hamlin we have a piano that is every bit as good or better IMHO but we are not paying a $10,000 premium. Mason & Hamlins are not cheap pianos (M&H BB retail: approx. $47,500) by any means but I would find it very hard to justify paying $59,000 for a Steinway just for the name. One analogy comes to mind; I am a watch collector/enthusiast and many people believe that quality in watches stops with Rolex as the best. While it is true they are an excellent watch, they are by no means the best; they are the best represented and marketed, as is Steinway--many people have never heard of Patek Phillipe, Vacheron Constantin or Ulyses Nardin. The case is also true in the world of pianos; there are people who would automatically assume a Steinway is better than a Bechstein or a Grotrian or Baldwin or M&H for that matter. Well, I'm a little off subject here but I thougt I'd throw out some food for thought; most of this still comes down to 1)personal preference 2) individual instrument within any of these brands and 3) the technician that sets up the instrument (most overlooked of all). Thanks for listening (I mean reading!) Mat D.

Subject: Steinway 85 keys From: MA To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 23:06:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What are the disadvantages of a 1892 Model A 85 keys in compared with the one with 88 keys ? How often the last 3 keys being played ? I am in the process of deciding to buy the one with 85 keys. Please give me some data ASAP. Thanks a million.

Subject: Re: Steinway 85 keys From: Mat D. To: MA Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 23:19:25 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: MA, I would say that unless you are a virtuoso, there is little reason not to buy an 85 key piano. Right off the bat you have chosen an excellent brand name; if the piano sounds good, feels good and is in your price range, I would first have a qualified technician look at it (especially considering it is over 100 years old--not neccesarily a bad thing) to be sure there are no hidden problems. If everything checks out, I wouldn't hesitate to purchase such an instrument. Let us know how you decide. Mat D.

Subject: Piano placement From: Elizabeth To: All Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 11:07:25 (EDT) Email Address: poetique@yahoo.com Message: Dear All I just bought a piano yesterday after 2-3 weeks of research (including Larry Fine's book) and showrooms visits. It is a Yamaha U1, a great value for my money I think. Love the tone, feel and sound. My question now is the placement of it in my home. I plan to put it downstairs where there is least temperature variations. I live in MN. However, the family room downstairs is smallish. I plan to put it beside a fireplace (which I plan NOT TO USE), and it is exactly 61 inches (the wall space that is)! The piano width is 60.25 inches! It is prudent? How much space do you need for the sides of the piano. If I place my piano there, there will be a stairwell wall on one side, and a 2.5 inch protusion of the fireplace on the other side. It may sound weird to you, but I can imagine the location looking 'attractive.' However, will that position yield the best potential from the piano. Are there any no-nos? What about the option of placing the piano diagonally at the corner? I know most of you are going 'yikes...not beside a fireplace!!!' Promise, I will not use it. Well...not unless Y2K hits, and electrical disaster hits, and I have to use the wood fireplace. Even so, I WILL MOVE THE PIANO TO ANOTHER ROOM if so!!! I appreciate any help... Meanwhile, I would like to give my own 2 cents on buying a piano: Taking into consideration the make and model of the piano...no two are identical. They may be of the same year, model, make....but you really have to try, try, try-out the piano in the showroom. NEVER ORDER the piano and have it delivered to your home new untried by you. I also dealt with a reputable salesperson, whom I respect for his candor, no pressure tactics, and patience. I did look at the Kawai NS 20A and loved its sound as well. But I preferred the Yamaha U1, and the price was more agreeable as well. Also, I thought the U1 I tried was exceptional (and I tried nine total U1s in the showroom). My other question is : what potential problems do I have to look out that may have be incurred during transportation? Thank you so much!! Love this site...:) And I am so happy to play the piano again!!!!! Elizabeth ;))

Subject: Re: Piano placement From: antmaril@aol.com To: Elizabeth Date Posted: Sun, Aug 01, 1999 at 19:23:49 (EDT) Email Address: Mat D. Message: Elizabeth, Congratulations on your new piano & on doing your homework in the selection. The most important factor in piano placement is humidity & temperature control; do not place the piano over an open heat vent or in front of a window with hot sun beating down on the piano daily. If you must place it in front of a window, either use blinds or shade during direct sun hours. Ideally you would place the piano on an inside wall out of direct sunlight and if there is a heat vent under or very near it, close off that particular vent. Best of luck Mat D.

Subject: Mehlin & Sons Baby Grand Player Piano From: E. A. Grens To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 31, 1999 at 19:52:47 (EDT) Email Address: eagre@citlink.net Message: Does anyone know anything about a Mehlin & Sons baby grand player piano? A friend of mine has one she believes was manufactured before 1900, but local music stores seem to know nothing about it. I ran a web search for her and found nothing; thus I am posting this message. Unfortunately I know almost nothing about pianos myself. Thanks for any help. Ed Grens

Subject: ibach pianos: anyone heard of them,??if yes.,,plz comment From: benjamin To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 10:43:42 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo30@hotmail.com Message: hi once again.. does anyone noez abt ibach piamnos>?? i have never played opne b'fore but would like thopse who tried it commend abt the sound,,the touch,,and the origin..i am currently looking at the ibach (165cm)grand model..does anyone care to comment?does the ibach rivals the steinway,kawai or yahmaha?which brand is better???and does anyone noe abt the estimated price of an ibach grand tat i am looking at?thanx alot......

Subject: Re: ibach pianos: anyone heard of them,??if yes.,,plz comment From: David Burton To: benjamin Date Posted: Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 22:43:08 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Have I heard of Ibach pianos? Yeah, I played them, have met the two Ibach brothers Christian and Rolf who currently run it, and Ibach is my all time pick of the greatest piano in all the world, the best German sound and action, playing one is quite simply one of the greater experiences I have ever had. They have some features you wont find on any other piano, like the way the soundboard is attached to the back of the rim. The action in particular is fast, agile without being light. Their grands are, well lets just say that you’ll never need another piano, ever. They were favored by both Brahms and Wagner, two composers who if they didn’t agree on most things at least had enough people in their camps to cause an argument. But on pianos they were in total agreement; IBACH !!

Subject: Re: ibach pianos: anyone heard of them,??if yes.,,plz comment From: benjamin foo To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 09:09:54 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo@hotmail.com Message: Have I heard of Ibach pianos? Yeah, I played them, have met the two Ibach brothers Christian and Rolf who currently run it, and Ibach is my all time pick of the greatest piano in all the world, the best German sound and action, playing one is quite simply one of the greater experiences I have ever had. They have some features you wont find on any other piano, like the way the soundboard is attached to the back of the rim. The action in particular is fast, agile without being light. Their grands are, well lets just say that you’ll never need another piano, ever. They were favored by both Brahms and Wagner, two composers who if they didn’t agree on most things at least had enough people in their camps to cause an argument. But on pianos they were in total agreement; IBACH !! --- yup,,i now have a good impression on the ibach grand..but wat abt the sound of the 165 cm grand?is it as good as a 175cm yamaha?does it have a light and bright sound or izzit mellow???and wat does ibach use for the material of the key??izzit something like kawai's neotex where they use a special type of material that asborbs the moisture from the hand thus making it non-sillpery or is the texture of the key 'plasticky' kind?? i am very particular abt tis becoz my fingers kind of 'slip' of the keys when i play them.. thanx for ur help

Subject: Re: ibach pianos: anyone heard of them,??if yes.,,plz comment From: David Burton To: benjamin foo Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 23:43:54 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Ibach has a website at www.ibach.de Send them an e-mail and I am sure you'll get a better description of their keys than I can provide. I played them in Atlanta where it can get really hot and humid and I always found their keys cool like real ivory but I am sure they were using ivorine of some kind. As for their sound, it is closest to a Steinway or a Bechstein, a clear sound without that 'shiny' almost metalic quality of the Asian pianos. It's the kind of sound that does not tire the ear. The actions on Ibach's are astondingly fast without being light. Incredibly good.

Subject: Iver & Pond business records From: Jim Bennett To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 16:31:24 (EDT) Email Address: cjb3@mailexcite.com Message: I am heir to an Ivers & Pond upright built sometime before 1920 based on correspondence I have of my Great-Grandmother's to her mother. I am trying to learn specifically when the maufacture date was and who & when was it first sold to from the Company. With Ivers & Pond no longer in business I can't ask them. Any suggestions?

Subject: Re: Iver & Pond business records From: David Burton To: Jim Bennett Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 23:37:13 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I am heir to an Ivers & Pond upright built sometime before 1920 based on correspondence I have of my Great-Grandmother's to her mother. I am trying to learn specifically when the maufacture date was and who & when was it first sold to from the Company. With Ivers & Pond no longer in business I can't ask them. Any suggestions? --- Jim, All you really need to know is that Ivers & Pond were in their day one of the most highly regarded brands of pianos ever made. A completely rebuilt I&P can fetch good money. If yours is in good shape it's worth would be on the high end of comparable pianos of size and vintage. Even in terrible shape, well not hopelessly terrible, any I&P is worth rebuilding. Some of us out here prick up our eyes and ears every time we see anything having to do with Ivers & Pond. A good one is better than any Steinway, comparable to a Mason & Hamlin, etc. essentially as I said before, one of the very best instruments ever made.

Subject: Re: Iver & Pond business records From: Granholm Bros To: Jim Bennett Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 17:19:14 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I am heir to an Ivers & Pond upright built sometime before 1920 based on correspondence I have of my Great-Grandmother's to her mother. I am trying to learn specifically when the maufacture date was and who & when was it first sold to from the Company. With Ivers & Pond no longer in business I can't ask them. Any suggestions? --- You can get the year the piano was manufactured by posting its serial number here or emailing it to me. Unless you can find a dealer's mark or sticker inside somewhere, or a dealer's decal on the fallboard, I doubt you'll be able to answer your second question. One possible way--If you know the city where the piano was purchased, I guess it might be possible to find out who was selling pianos in that town at the time yours was sold--you'd have to check with a local history museum or historical society probably. You might be able to find out who sold it, but I don't know how you'd determine who first bought it. We're just finishing up a mahogany I&P upright from 1919, the latest of several we've done. We like them. These were very nice pianos--well-designed, solidly built, wonderful sound, beautiful case veneers. I&P even added a little gold into the mix for their brass pedals and hinges, so when polished up they are a darker, warmer color than standard brass parts. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations Roseburg OR

Subject: All These Makes and Models of Pianos From: David Burton To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 05:24:41 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I have read through all the posts on these threads and noticed that a majority of the subjects are inquiries about various old pianos by brand, age or size with or without some question as to their monetary value. It has been suggested by some of the technicians who have responded that some information is available in various publications. If all those who have questions don't want to buy these books, they may find out at least some things about their piano from their local piano technicians who may have these books on hand. If one doesn't have them, try another. Try a public library to get these books for you. Now the next point is what are these old instruments really worth? It has been said repeatedly by the technicians who have replied that their value are chiefly as musical instruments, not furnature. That will frustrate many of the 'art case' padlers out there I'm sure. That said, the next question is one of the market for pianos, or the market for old pianos. I am coming at this from the perspective of a fairly widely traveled semi-professional pianist who has known a fair number of people in the piano retail business and piano technical professions and is continually making contact with a few piano rebuilders because I just frankly love pianos. I have my favorites, have owned a few, new and old, etc. I am particularly interested in the craft of rebuilding old instruments. Sometimes this can be a rewarding thing to do if one owns the piano and knows what one can get from rebuilding it, somone who can really play the piano well enough to appreciate what a good piano rebuilt into an even better piano can really be. What most people want to know are questions like this; Is my piano worth anything? Is it a good instrument? Was it ever a good instrument? Should I consider putting any money into it or going out and getting a new one and junking the old one? Here are some things to consider. There would seem to be two types of pianos which were never intended to be very good to begin with; really short spinnets and really short grands. On this last point some people think that there isn't any advantage to a 5'2' grand over a full upright because the bass end of the baby grand is never going to be that great. But on the other hand the upright action has some limitations that simply don't exist in a grand. So it is a trade-off, one most people don't even know exists. Of course many new upright actions are better than the old grand's action is likely to be. However, this said, what is the resale value of a spinnet or a really short grand which is something like 60 or more years old? Truth be told, probably next to nothing. Remember we are talking about value as a musical instrument. You can get real value in a new piano from many sources. And the used upright and grand markets offer many real steals. OK, we have eliminated these kinds of pianos from consideration, now what's left? Well, there are upright pianos ranging in sizes from 48' all the way up beyond 6' tall and the grands. Let's talk about the uprights first. The upright piano if it is sufficiently large can provide much that a good sized grand can in sound in a space saving size. But the upright will never have the action of a grand, although they can sometimes come very close. The old pianos of 60 years old and more vintage that anyone may consider rebuilding are so numerous that they could actually cause something of a renaissance if and only if people start turning back to learning how to play the piano and sharing their performances with others rather than sitting there and watching TV. This is what people did before there was radio and TV which is why there were so many pianos made during the golden age of piano building. There are a few rebuilders out there who are dedicated to restoring and rebuilding these old large upright pianos. I have seen some of their work and have been very impressed. They have made some improvements over the originals particularly when they have replaced the actions and made corrections for the string scaling. Many have cleaned and sometimes repaired the original soundboard. Very few that I have seen have replaced these old soundboards with new ones as they took on the piano to rebuild based on the structural soundness of the instrument, its soundboard being a key consideration. Therefore when anyone asks about their particular piano, the soundness of the soundboard as well as the size of the piano are key considerations. It will be obvious to some technicians that many of these very old large upright pianos will of course require new pinblocks when they are rebuilt. I have seen a few really bad rebuilds on old grands where this was not done and I have felt sick for the owners knowing that they will never really be able to keep their pianos tuned. Now what's the value of these old upright pianos, not rebuilt, in old 'as is' condition? I got a list of makers that are considered 'good possible rebuild' candidates. Don't worry if your piano maker's name is not on this list. You may still have a good instrument. Get a good honest 'hurt me' response from a hardheaded piano technician who has seen a lot of pianos. Also if you are out in the sticks you might not get as much for it as you might if you lived in town. Here's the list; Steinway, Baldwin, Henry F. Miller, Knabe, Mason & Hamlin, Mason & Risch, Sohmer, Bush & Lane, McPhail, Haines Bros., Foster, Ivers & Pond, Hallet & Davis, Kranich & Bach, Decker, Gibbons & Stone. Again, there are so many more that if any were neglected, as there certainly were, since there were at one time many thousands of piano makes in the United States, you must again approach your local hardheaded technician to get a fair assessment. In most cases it will not be more than a few hundred dollars. If it wont even play it's not worth anything. A completely rebuilt upright of sufficient size; pinblock, action and rescaling with acceptable or excellent case will only fetch at most a few thousnad dollars. And look at the competition. One can easily find a new piano, an upright, for comparable value even comparable actions to those that might be used in a rebuilt upright. It's a very competative market. Now lets consider the grands. A lot of the same names come up again but here are a few more, Kurtzman, Weber (old ones not the new oriental ones), Schomacker, Blasius, some Esteys (especially the larger ones), Fischer, Heintzman, Bennet, Schimmel, Sohmer, Stieff, George Steck. It should go without saying that a vintage Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Knabe, Chickering and Baldwin, the last two the big grands mostly, make good rebuild candidates. Some like the old player grands. I don't for a number of reasons, but one is that I usually play them rather than listen to a machine play them. A large grand has many advantages to the true pianist but a few disadvantages also, like space. What's the market for them? There will probably always be a market for anything with Steinway on it despite my contention that there are just as many perfectly good pianos out there that aren't Steinways, many I would personally rather own. I might even prefer a new Boston to a new Steinway given the difference in price. But what about these old grands? Well the big points will be the action and the scaling, maybe the soundboard will need replacing, the keys may need new caps, the pinblock will of course be replaced. If you have a good vintage grand six feet or more or even five eight or more and you either own it and got it for nothing, an inheritance, or for very little, a few hundred dollars, you could well put several thousand into it and still come out ahead because a new grand of comparable size will cost as much if not more than your rebuild and your rebuild may have more character than anything new. I have tried to get at the issue of the character of various pianos by make, how one describes what they feel and sound like, with various technicians. It is very hard to describe in words. I think a thread for this purpose should be started here. I have put this lengthy piece in as the result of my own research into this fascinating business which has been for so long close to my heart. Not only have I played the piano all my life but I am also a composer. I am 48 years old. Please e-mail me with any questions you have other than specific questions about particular piano manufacturers. There were simply too many of them before the Great Depression. The books referenced in other posts are where you're likely to find this information.

Subject: Re: All These Makes and Models of Pianos From: ben To: David Burton Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 06:43:45 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo@hotmail.com Message: okay...would u like to comment abt korean grand pianos like samick and weinberg???

Subject: Re: All These Makes and Models of Pianos From: David Burton To: ben Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 23:01:31 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: okay...would u like to comment abt korean grand pianos like samick and weinberg??? --- WE NEED TO WORK LIKE WE DON'T NEED MONEY, LOVE LIKE WE HAVE NEVER BEEN HURT AND DANCE LIKE NOBODY IS WATCHING. ENJOY LIFE AND LOVE sexydoll

Subject: Re: All These Makes and Models of Pianos From: S. Rowan To: David Burton Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 02:21:22 (EDT) Email Address: rowanbms@cdsnet.net Message: Hi--trying to decide what I want to buy and discovered this web page. Hope you can answer some of my questions and I hope this actually gets through to you as it sounds as if the knowledge you have is extensive. I have an old Howard console, but am looking for a newer piano or an older upright that has been rebuilt. I found an old Everett that the dealer bought for 200 hundred dollars, had it refinished(nicely done) and put some work into it re-shaping hammers, along with some other work. He is asking 4000 plus my Howard(was higher-5995). Also, I checked out another two local stores and realized the asian pianos are in my budget if I also want something that looks pretty and not as concerned about the total package. Found three Baby grands, with mine as a trade in, would give me a white baby grand Young Chang for 5695, black for 5295 or polished mahogany for 6289.(all prices included with my Howard as trade in. The Young Chang dealer says it is better to buy a new piano, rather than spend 4,000 on a 1901 Everett. Also, again the question of a cheaper baby grand as opposed to a taller upright?I am very confused. Took lessons for ten years when I was younger and like to play but am not sure what would be best for me. Thanks so Much. HELP!! Sandy

Subject: Re: All These Makes and Models of Pianos From: David Burton To: S. Rowan Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 23:27:46 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Sandy, I am really going to reiterate much of what Cork has said and I agree with him too. You have an old Howard console. You want a newer piano. The yellow light on my dashboard went off when you described the Everett. A $200 REBUILT piano of that vintage and description would sell for around $4,000 BY ITSELF without a trade in. He was asking almost $6K for it without one, totally out of line in my opinion unless the piano was a complete rebuild. And if it is a complete rebuild, it would have a new pinblock, new strings, new hammers (not reshaped ones), perhaps a new bridge, essentially a rebuilt piano as good as new if not actually better than new. This dealer sounds like he's pulling a fast one on you. I for one don't care as much what the case of an old piano looks like as what's inside it, how it plays and sounds. Those are going to draw me back to play them day in and day out. Of course the Asian pianos are in everyone's budget and they all have that bright 'shiny', 'glassy' sound too. But how will that sound to you after you play it for a while? You really need to look around and BE CAREFUL. Some piano dealers can be as wheeler-dealer as some used car salesmen. The Young Chang dealer's comment is essentially correct, but not quite. There are some rebuilt uprights out there, and I do mean completely rebuilt, that will outperform any modern assembly line piano out of Asia, because the parts have been selected in many cases from the best that exist, you are getting a custom made, rebuilt piano of vintage. Now there are some out there, people who are in the business of selling new soundboards for instance, who contend that a piano soundboard 'wears out' in 20 years anyway. You know what? I flat out don't agree with them!!! So there you have my take on it. You have an old Howard that might be worth as much as $400-$600 as is. It might be worth a lot less too. I don't know. You really want to spend no less than $5K with the Howard in trade to get a good piano, one that will really make you want to play it. You have a question about a cheaper baby grand compared with a taller upright. I'd stir clear of baby grands personally, cheaper or otherwise. As for the taller uprights, how well do you like the sound of your own Howard? Ever consider having it rebuilt? You might spend less money and end up with a better piano. There are many rebuilders out there, check them out, on the web. You are luckiest if you live close enough to one of them to see their work in progress. It will provide you with quite an education. It depends on where you are. If you took lessons for ten years, well, what you want is a piano that will attract you to play it day in and day out. How long will it take for one of those baby grands to tire your ears out? Yeah they're pretty, but what are they really worth? Seems to me you need to do more looking and please be very careful of piano con artists. Very best of luck.

Subject: Re: All These Makes and Models of Pianos From: Cork To: S. Rowan Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 09:21:03 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Sandy, With the information you have right now, I don't think you are in a position to make a good decision. First, regarding the 1901 Everett upright (or any used piano for that matter), you should have an independent technician evaluate the instrument for you BEFORE you agree to buy it. Your description sends up many warning signals. If all the dealer did was refinish the case and reshape the hammers on a $200 piano, it may need a lot more work on the important things before it is a satisfactory instrument. Only a technician working for you can determine that. Regarding the Asian small grands, in general you are probably better off with a newer upright than with a grand much smaller than 5'7' or so. To be blunt, the tiny grands of about 5' or so are more successful as furniture than as pianos. To become a more informed buyer, purchase a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', a consumer's guide to the new and used piano market. Also, take your time while you evaluate all the options in your price class. I suspect a new or relatively recent used upright (48' or more) might be the best solution for you. Some brands to consider include (but are not limited to) Baldwin, Kawai, Petrof, and Yamaha. Again, get the book and spend some time learning about the choices. And do not purchase any used instrument without first having it evaluated by a professional. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Stultz Bros. Piano From: Sharon To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 17:23:36 (EDT) Email Address: smcquay@netexas.net Message: I have a piano that has Stultz Bros. on the wood that covers the keys. The serial numnber is 9880. It is an upright piano and I don't know anything about it nor can I find anything about Stultz Bros. Is that the name of the manufacture of the piano or what. Please help me learn a little about this piano. It is in rough shape and I am not sure whether I want to fix it up or sell it. What would be about the asking price for a Stultz Bros. piano. Please help me! Sharon M.

Subject: Old Piano Answers From: Granholm Bros To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 22:14:31 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Several similar inquiries about old pianos have been posted in the last couple of days. Rather than respond to them individually, here's what the Pierce Piano Atlas has to say about: Schaeffer: 1873-1931 in Chicago. Some also were made by Starr Piano Co of Kankakee, IL Conover: As posted a couple days ago, a brand built and marketed by Cable Piano Co of Chicago. Patterson, R. E.: Dyton, Kentucky. No other information available. Ludwig: 1888-1941, at the corner of Willow and 136th St, New York. The Atlas Piano Company bought the name and built Ludwig pianos till 1953. John McFarland: New York, 1902, no other information available. There is usually no other specific information about these companies or individual pianos, unless the information is with the instrument or with its owner in the form of memories. During the piano boom from 1890-1920, there were hundreds of American companies building millions of pianos at all levels of quality. We once restored a piano that contained an old sales contract inside and this provenance, as it is called in the antique trade, helped trace the history of the piano and made it more valuable to the customer who bought it for her bed-and-breakfast inn in her restored historic home. But this is a very rare. It's the only old piano we've done where we found this sort of information inside. We have found old coins, stamps, photographs, postcards, stars (from piano teachers), and innumerable pencils and bobby pins, to name some of our most frequently recovered objects, which, by the way, we return to our customers. Any other information on quality, condition, and value is impossible to provide in this forum. The only reliable way to determine this information is through an on-site inspection by a piano techncian. We strongly recommend this to anyone who has inherited, or is thinking of purchasing, any used piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Old Piano Answers From: Kim Horlacher To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 04:54:29 (EDT) Email Address: kimah@netzero.com Message: About the Conover Piano, what I found out was that the Conover Company didn't join forces with the Cable Co. until 1892 and on the inside of my piano the plate just says Chicago Conover Piano with patents dated from 1876 - 1885 so I beleive mine dates before Cable. The serial number is #40049. Thanks for the input about Conover, I do appreciate it. I will take your advise on getting it looked at by a technician, as this may be the only way to find value for it.

Subject: Re: Old Piano Answers From: Granholm Bros To: Kim Horlacher Date Posted: Fri, Jul 30, 1999 at 11:33:33 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: About the Conover Piano, what I found out was that the Conover Company didn't join forces with the Cable Co. until 1892 and on the inside of my piano the plate just says Chicago Conover Piano with patents dated from 1876 - 1885 so I beleive mine dates before Cable. The serial number is #40049. Thanks for the input about Conover, I do appreciate it. I will take your advise on getting it looked at by a technician, as this may be the only way to find value for it. --- Kim True. J. Frank Conover and H. D. Cable consolodated in 1890 to make the Conover piano in Oregon, Illinois. Cable was also known for awhile as the Conover-Cable Co and Schiller-Cable Co. Your piano was built in 1902, which puts it after the merger. John

Subject: question about piano From: Lupe To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 20:55:34 (EDT) Email Address: mizcles@yahoo.com Message: I am inquiring about a schaeffer piano. I really don't know much. The piano has this information in it: 1875 established Chicago. Paris exposition 1878, Diploma of Honor Schaeffer. Can anyone tell me any information about this piano.

Subject: Conover Piano From: Kim Horlacher To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 20:21:46 (EDT) Email Address: kimah@netzero.com Message: I can not find any history on my Conover Piano. Does anyone know where I can find information on it? I know it must be at least 100 years old and its an upright grand. If anyone knows anything it would be very appreciated.

Subject: Piano Karaoke? From: Barbara Burrill To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 15:30:09 (EDT) Email Address: Barbara,Burrill@AlaskaAir.com Message: I know this product must exist - I just must be looking in the wrong places. I want to be able to play the piano part of a piano concerto, and have a 'canned' orchestra accompany me. Is there such a thing on CD, or only through a PC (which would be OK, too.) I just want to know if this is possible in some form, and where I could find it? I am first interested in finding this in Gershwin's Piano Concerto in F. Thanks for any tips!

Subject: Patterson pianos From: claudia bennett To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 29, 1999 at 02:11:41 (EDT) Email Address: clydeben@aol.com Message: A friend of mine has a beautiful piano she bought from a builder named Patterson in Ohio back in the sixties. It is her understanding he only made about six of them. Has anyone heard of them and what are they worth?

Subject: ludwig. . .a brand of antique piano From: cdj To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 19:43:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Anyone ever heard of this brand? I've looked and can't find a company, or a parent company by this name. Directions, anyone?

Subject: John Macfarlane Upright? From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 19:18:51 (EDT) Email Address: tommons@wpi.edu Message: I've got a fairly old upright that says John Macfarlane, New York on the metal sound board inside of it. There's an engraved number '535' on the wood inside of the back wall, just below the plate on the left side. There are also four patent dates with patent numbers listed on the wood under the hammers that range from 1870 to 1890. I've looked and looked but can't find a reference to the manufacturer 'John Macfarlane'. Has anyone ever heard of this brand? I'm trying to find out how old this thing is. Thanks!

Subject: Tempered scale From: Allen Robnett To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 11, 1999 at 09:46:45 (EDT) Email Address: AlRobnett@aol.com Message: I am a physics teacher, interested in the the relationship between the tempered scale and the overtone series. I think that a piano tuner once told me that tuners speak of small frequency differences in terms of 'cents'. I suppose that would be hundreths of 1 chromatic (half) step. He also pointed out that the two or three strings of a given note are note tuned to precisely the same frequency, thus affecting the timbre of the sound produced. I have three questions. Can anyone really distinguish a difference of one cent, or is it a matter of listening to beat frequencies? How many cents would ordinarily be used as the difference in the strings for a given note. I have calculated that the third harmonic of C (which is G) would differ from the tempered scale G by 2 cents sharp. If that is the case, then traversing the 12 steps of the circle of fifths would result in a 24 cent error (a quarter of a chromatic step)when you return to the original note. Am I close?

Subject: Re: Tempered scale From: scottyG To: Allen Robnett Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 18:58:52 (EDT) Email Address: scotyg@hotmail.com Message: I am a physics teacher, interested in the the relationship between the tempered scale and the overtone series. I think that a piano tuner once told me that tuners speak of small frequency differences in terms of 'cents'. I suppose that would be hundreths of 1 chromatic (half) step. He also pointed out that the two or three strings of a given note are note tuned to precisely the same frequency, thus affecting the timbre of the sound produced. I have three questions. Can anyone really distinguish a difference of one cent, or is it a matter of listening to beat frequencies? How many cents would ordinarily be used as the difference in the strings for a given note. I have calculated that the third harmonic of C (which is G) would differ from the tempered scale G by 2 cents sharp. If that is the case, then traversing the 12 steps of the circle of fifths would result in a 24 cent error (a quarter of a chromatic step)when you return to the original note. Am I close? --- i am a poor music student...and can't even afford a book on piano tuning...but have been able to check out a piano tuning hamer from a local library... could you please forward the response you received from granholm bros to me... anything would be a help thanks, scott

Subject: Re: Tempered scale From: Allen Robnett To: Allen Robnett Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 15:30:55 (EDT) Email Address: AlRobnett@aol.com Message: John Granholm of Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations in Roseburg OR sent me a very complete answer to my question, for which I am very grateful. One question lingers: I was told, long ago, that tuners deliberately detune the three strings of a given note by a very small amount to impart a tone quality akin to the vibrato of a singer or other instruments. Is this a mistaken notion?

Subject: Re: Tempered scale From: Granholm Bros To: Allen Robnett Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 11:16:02 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: John Granholm of Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations in Roseburg OR sent me a very complete answer to my question, for which I am very grateful. One question lingers: I was told, long ago, that tuners deliberately detune the three strings of a given note by a very small amount to impart a tone quality akin to the vibrato of a singer or other instruments. Is this a mistaken notion? --- I have heard of this as well, but it has always been done at the request of the customer. For the piano tuner, the goal is always beatless unisons. John

Subject: old,old piano From: Dave Zobrist To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 18:22:19 (EDT) Email Address: zobrist@gulftel.com Message: I recently acquired an old grand piano made by some company called Paul G. Mehlin & Sons - Has anyone ever heard of this company?

Subject: Re: old,old piano From: Mike Hoover To: Dave Zobrist Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 22:48:31 (EDT) Email Address: mycabin@arkansas.net Message: Did you ever find out anything on the Paul G. Mehlin & Sons Company of New York? I have an old upright grand that I'm trying to get information about. Serial number 17922. Can anyone help?

Subject: Re: old,old piano From: David Zobrist To: Mike Hoover Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 09:13:58 (EDT) Email Address: zobrist@gulftel.com Message: David Burton sent me two very informative messages about the Paul G. Mehlin piano I had aquired. You can review his information under 'Old, Old piano'.

Subject: Re: old,old piano From: David Burton To: Dave Zobrist Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 02:27:50 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: If it is a really large piano either a big upright or a larger than 5'8' grand it is one of the brands that has been recomended for a complete rebuild. If you got it for next to nothing, are willing to put $7K to $10K into a rebuild (if it's a grand) you'll probably end up with quite a piano.

Subject: Re: old,old piano From: Dave Zobrist To: David Burton Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 15:48:42 (EDT) Email Address: zobrist@gulftel.com Message: Thanks, David. However, this piano is only the size of a baby grand. Is it still worth 7-10K?

Subject: Re: old,old piano From: David Burton To: Dave Zobrist Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 16:29:39 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: OK, I'm going to step out on a limb here, but it's a pretty thick one. I don't care how good a name a grand piano has on it, if it's a short one, less than 5'8', it's not going to be as good in any condition as a larger grand, and if one is thinking about a rebuild, I wouldn't do it. As I said in my big post 'All Those Makes and Models of Pianos', what makes the price of a piano is its value as a musical instrument and SIZE is a key consideration. I basically eliminated all old pianos that were not full size uprights or grands larger than 5'8'. The market for smaller older pianos is just not there. For one thing there are far too many good new entry level pianos out there. It's just not economically a good idea to put a lot of money into rebuilding a too small old piano. So the answer is, if the grand in question is less than 5'8' don't bother. If it's 5'8' or larger, give it some consideration and you might get as much as $7K for it in the end, maybe more if it turns out really nice. But you may have to spend that much just to get it that way, especially if the cost includes refinishing which is often very expensive. The rebuilder you choose is also very important, shop around, get bids, but for God's sake make sure that any rebuild includes replacing the pinblock. They might as well dowel it into the frame too like Steinway does. How that's done will affect how long the rebuilt piano may be expected to last. One of the worst offences I have seen in bad rebuilds is that they didn't bother to replace the pinblock and eventually you can see it in the tuning pins which all begin to point toward the bridge. A piano that's done this way will never stay in tune! Another matter is the soundboard. Depending on whose opinion you believe, Del Fandrich for example, you will maybe want a new soundboard. But contact Dave Rodgers outside Erie, PA first. He rebuilds soundboards just about as well as anyone can. Another matter is the action. There have probably been more improvements in this area than perhaps any other in piano technology over the past sixty years. Some rebuilders make the terrible mistake of trying to restore an old action that has seen its day. Better to junk the old and replace it with a new action, ether one of Del Fandrich's or a German one. Also of consideration is whether the space in a piano will accomodate a modern action. Again, you are less likely to run into this problem in a larger piano, another reason to eliminate smaller old pianos from consideration for rebuilding. As far as moving the thing is concerned, it matters less how it gets to the rebuilder than how the finished piano gets back to you so make that a consideration of your costs. Piano rebuilding is going through something of a renaissance and for good reason. There are probably thousands of old pianos out there that are worthy of rebuilding. When completed, competently, these can rival the very best new pianos in their class and again SIZE matters. But caution is required. One thing to be concerned about is the construction and thickness of the rim on a grand or the case on an upright. If the rim is too thin or badly damaged, forget it. I hope these comments have helped.

Subject: Re: old,old piano From: Dave Zobrist To: David Burton Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 15:45:32 (EDT) Email Address: zobrist@gulftel.com Message:

Subject: Quality From: Kyle To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 19:17:45 (EDT) Email Address: mooter @ web tv. net Message: Can anyone tell me if a Samack grand piano is a better or worse quality than a Kawai grand or are they pretty much the same

Subject: Re: Quality From: John D. To: Kyle Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 20:23:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can anyone tell me if a Samack grand piano is a better or worse quality than a Kawai grand or are they pretty much the same --- If you are shopping for a new grand, you might want to get a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book'. This will help you a great deal when attempting to make such comparisons. That said, according to third edition of Fine's book, Kawai appears to enjoy the more favorable quality rating. Kawai's are nice pianos if you like the sound of Asian pianos. But, in defense of Samick, they cost less than Kawai. Good luck, John D.

Subject: Re: Quality From: Mat D. To: John D. Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 00:48:56 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: In general I would also go with the Kawai but I did play a Samick this week at a local Steinway dealer that was pretty nice. Be aware though, that it was one of their special edition models; Renner action, solid spruce soundboard etc. If memory serves me, it was a 6'1' with a price tag of $14,900--not bad. I'm not sure what acomparable Kawai costs these days but apples to apples, I would go with the Kawai.

Subject: old piano From: mark To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 16:33:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently bought a piano with the name of conover pianos of chicago in it- has anyone heard of this company??? also the vaneer is chipped in a few places what kind of wood do you think it might be- looks like mahagony but not sure

Subject: Re: old piano From: Granholm Bros To: mark Date Posted: Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 00:31:32 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I recently bought a piano with the name of conover pianos of chicago in it- has anyone heard of this company??? also the vaneer is chipped in a few places what kind of wood do you think it might be- looks like mahagony but not sure --- Conover was a brand of piano built by the Cable Piano Co. of Chicago. They were a large concern and built pianos in different price ranges with different names. This was, and still is, a common practice. If the veneer on your piano looks like mahogany, it probably is. Mahogany was the most commonly used veneering material on cases of American pianos of the early 20th Century. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Action Regulation From: Mat D. To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 22:30:10 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Now that my M&H BB is beautifully voiced (my tech finished this week), I am rethinking my stand on a heavier action. I am thinking about lightening my (Renner)action. Can Cork or any other knowledgeable person give me some info on how this is best accomplished. I have not yet talked to my technician as I want to get input from others first. It is my understanding that the only way to accomplish this is to add weight (assuming there are no other friction problems) to the 'play' end of the key. Is this the only method or are there screw adjustments on the action somewhere that could get similar results without anything as drastic as drilling and adding lead weights? Looking forward to your responses. Thank you, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Action Regulation From: Charlie To: Mat D. Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 13:57:11 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Now that my M&H BB is beautifully voiced (my tech finished this week), I am rethinking my stand on a heavier action. I am thinking about lightening my (Renner)action. Can Cork or any other knowledgeable person give me some info on how this is best accomplished. I have not yet talked to my technician as I want to get input from others first. It is my understanding that the only way to accomplish this is to add weight (assuming there are no other friction problems) to the 'play' end of the key. Is this the only method or are there screw adjustments on the action somewhere that could get similar results without anything as drastic as drilling and adding lead weights? Looking forward to your responses. Thank you, Mat D. --- I purchased a new Rieger-Kloss with Renner action. I initially thought the action was a bit heavy, but later decided it was just too stiff. At the first tuning, the technician took about an hour and a half to adjust the action and lubricate things. (That's about a minute a key. There was a screw adjustment on each key for the adjustment.) The results were dramatic. The action is still heavy enough to control the sound, which I want, but the stiffness is gone, so I can easily play pianissimo. The exact cause of your problem may or may not be the same, but a technician would almost certainly be able to help, regardless of your problem. Renner actions are considered among the best in the world. I can't imagine that adding weights to the keys would be needed.. If it is a simple adjustment on each key, it probably will cost the equivaltent of a tuning or two. (That's my guess. I figure a technician needs to make some amount per hour, and he/she probably doesn't really care if it is spent tuning or servicing.) In a nutshell, talk to your technician. On the web we can only guess. The technician who tuned your piano has already started to understand your piano. He might be able to give you some ideas over the phone, even.

Subject: Re: Action Regulation From: Granholm Bros To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Jul 24, 1999 at 15:43:02 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Now that my M&H BB is beautifully voiced (my tech finished this week), I am rethinking my stand on a heavier action. I am thinking about lightening my (Renner)action. Can Cork or any other knowledgeable person give me some info on how this is best accomplished. I have not yet talked to my technician as I want to get input from others first. It is my understanding that the only way to accomplish this is to add weight (assuming there are no other friction problems) to the 'play' end of the key. Is this the only method or are there screw adjustments on the action somewhere that could get similar results without anything as drastic as drilling and adding lead weights? Looking forward to your responses. Thank you, Mat D. --- Traditional approaches to reducing touchweight would include the following, other than your suggestion of adding weight to the front half of the key: --Increase lost motion between keys and dampers. The key will pick up the weight of the damper assembly later in the stroke, decreasing touchweight slightly. --If the action is equipped with auxiliary springs on the wippens, reduce tension on these springs. This must be done very carefully to preserve uniform touchweight --I've read discussions about tweaking the lead weights in the keysticks by filing material away or removing them altogether. --I doubt you'd want to do it after all your voicing, but replacing the hammers with lighter ones will reduce touchweight. You could also keep the same hammers but remove wood from the tails, which would decrease their weight. There are no doubt other methods I haven't mentioned. Please have your technician exercise extreme caution with any of these procedures. Action functioning is a chain of related events, so any regulation you do on one part of the action will affect other functions on down the line, possibly producing unexpected and unpleasant consequences. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Kawai...again From: Dawn To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 01:05:26 (EDT) Email Address: mdg100@aol.com Message: Hello all, May I bother you people again on the Kawai RX2 that I wrote about recently? After all the responses, we thought we might lean toward a used grand that we had looked at a few months ago. The store that quoted the last price has since dropped the price to $9900. It would come with a full 10 year warranty. Two caveats: it has been on the floor for over a year and is not in mint condition. The store owner tells me that it has some surface scratches and perhaps worse. He also said that it is impossible to have a piano delivered in flawless condition. Huh? The other concern is that I have reason to believe the store may go out of business. How will this affect my guarantee? I know that a new and perfect RX2 is a steal at that price. But when we take these facts into account, is it still the 'deal' I thought I might be lucky enough to get? Many thanks again for all of your time. You people are super! Dawn

Subject: Re: Kawai...again From: Cork To: Dawn Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 09:30:43 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Dawn, I'm confused. Are you describing a used RX2 for $9,900? If that's the case, then our standard advice applies: have an independent tech evaluate the instrument BEFORE you buy. The tech will tell you how much it may cost to bring the instrument back to its peak performance. Then you will know the total cost of the option. As for the warranty, you should be more concerned about Kawai's warranty, not the dealer's. If Kawai will uphold their warranty for a second owner, (and I believe they will), that is the only important factor. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Kawai...again From: Dawn To: Cork Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 10:50:59 (EDT) Email Address: mdg100@aol.com Message: Cork, Maybe I am the one that is confused. I had read here that buying a piano from the floor of a retailer is preferred to having it delivered from factory to home. I assumed that that meant those pianos that had been played by potential buyers over time at the store. So, if I am reading you correctly, you are saying that after a year on the retailer's floor, and with its share of scratches, the piano is considered used even if the first 'owner' is the retailer. Which brings up another question: as buyers, should we expect that the new piano we buy be one that has *not* been sitting on the floor for any length of time? In other words, should it be brought new from the factory versus the one we tried at the store? Thanks, Dawn

Subject: Re: Kawai...again From: Cork To: Dawn Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 12:20:01 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Dawn, I misunderstood. A showroom queen is not a 'used' piano, though it may or may not be in perfect shape. Much depends on how well the dealer maintains the showroom instruments. Have you spoken with local techs about the dealer's reputation? The reason we recommend purchasing the piano you see on the floor instead of one in a box is that with many brands there is considerable variability among different examples of the same model. Steinways, for instance, each have their own character, and you want to get the one you selected. Also, the piano in the showroom generally has had a reasonable amount of prep to have attracted you in the first place. A shady dealer could sell you a new piano in the box and not provide the prep required. If the showroom piano is not in the physical condition you require (too many scratches, for instance), this rule could be relaxed because you are looking at Kawai. Both Kawai and Yamaha pianos are so consistent and require so little prep out of the box that in most cases you'd be fine buying a new one sight unseen. Just be aware that every piano needs some prep work, even the amazingly uniform Japanese instruments, and it should be provided by the dealer's tech. As for getting additional scratches in delivery, competent piano movers will deliver the most instruments without harm. Help any? Cork

Subject: vertical grand From: Kathy To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 22:49:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can anyone tell me what a Wurlitzer Vertical Grand, approx 15 yrs, oak, excellent cond. may be worth in Ohio?

Subject: Re: vertical grand From: Cork To: Kathy Date Posted: Tues, Jul 27, 1999 at 09:25:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can anyone tell me what a Wurlitzer Vertical Grand, approx 15 yrs, oak, excellent cond. may be worth in Ohio? --- Yes. A professional technician in your local market can tell you after she/he evaluates the condition of the instrument. If it is in excellent condition, then it has been maintained by a technician at least twice a year, so the tech who maintains it is in a great position to evaluate the piano for you. Rgds, Cork

Subject: wing & son's piano From: sheila To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 17:26:53 (EDT) Email Address: drtmtn@aol.com Message: we have a pre 1900 wing & son's upright grand piano and are looking for information on it's history. please contact us with any info you have.

Subject: Re: wing & son's piano From: Granholm Bros To: sheila Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 15:30:16 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: we have a pre 1900 wing & son's upright grand piano and are looking for information on it's history. please contact us with any info you have. --- Wing & Son was established in New York in 1868 and built pianos there until 1929. Their pianos were regarded as high-quality instruments. As far as a specific history of your piano, you probably can't get much more, other than the year it was built, available if you post the piano's serial number. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: piano manufacturer?? From: julie To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 26, 1999 at 00:09:48 (EDT) Email Address: jwilson@ldd.net Message: About two years ago my mother bought a baby grand piano at an auction. We can find no name on it anywhere, just a serial number (4800) and an S with circle around it and a 3 beside the circle. Can anyone tell me who the manufacturer might be? julie

Subject: Help in selecting a piano From: MBrooks To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 24, 1999 at 23:13:24 (EDT) Email Address: mindy.brooks@mortgagefamily.com Message: I've finally decided to buy a piano. I was going to buy used but felt so unsure of what I'd be buying that I'm now pretty sure I want new. Went to a dealer and began with a used Young Chang for $4995 to a new Weber for $6995 to a new Yamaha for between$8000-$10,300. I'm so confused. It will be for me to re-explore a childhood love of piano and hopefully encourage my young children to play. Am I wasting my money on the Young Chang? Should I push my budget to get the best piano I can afford? Are these good prices and/or good brands? help!!! Any advice is apreciated

Subject: Re: Help in selecting a piano From: Rich To: MBrooks Date Posted: Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 12:05:59 (EDT) Email Address: Ricdfenbek@aol.com Message: Young Chang or Weber are my least favorite pianos in terms of tone. While they are relatively inexpensive, if you can afford a higher budget I would look elsewhere. Yamahas are well built quality piano and many people love them. If your looking at Yamahas you should also try Kawai. Kawai grands that I've played have had a mellower tone, which is to my liking. Depending on your pocketbook there are a lot of good pianos out there. If you can increse your budget limit you may also want to reconsider looking at used pianos such as rebuilt Knabes and Mason & Hamlins. That being said before you purchase a used/rebuilt piano you should ALWAYS have a piano tech check it out. In any case take your time. Piano shopping can be fun.

Subject: Re: Help in selecting a piano From: MBrooks To: Rich Date Posted: Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 17:07:13 (EDT) Email Address: mindy.brooks@mortgagefamily.com Message: Thanks so much. I went looking again today and came to the same conclusion. I need to take my time. I'll keep your advice in mind during my search.

Subject: 1948 Jesse French and Sons piano From: Cheryl To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 19:58:46 (EDT) Email Address: rfreeman@snydertex.com Message: I need to know the value and resale potential of a 1948 Jesse French and Sons piano. Can anyone help me?

Subject: Re: 1948 Jesse French and Sons piano From: Piano World To: Cheryl Date Posted: Sat, Jul 24, 1999 at 21:26:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cheryl, The following is some information about the Jesse French Co. Jese French & Sons Pianos: Now owned by J. Neal Irwin 6 Greenvale Dr. Rochester, N.Y. Established 1875. A division of P.A. Starck Piano Co., 2160 N. Ashland, Chicago, IL. Other names used in the past, Ackerman & Lowe, Continental, Frenchetts, Jefferson, Krell-French, Lagonda, Browning. First pianos made in Nashville, TN, under name of Dorman French & Smith, later New Castle Indiana, formerly a division of H.A. Selmer, also affiliated with Krell French. For help in establishing the value of a piano, please visit our 'What's It Worth?' page at: http://www.pianoworld.com/value.htm Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Made by Forbes Piano Co., Birmingham, Al? From: Me To: Cheryl Date Posted: Sat, Jul 24, 1999 at 18:52:40 (EDT) Email Address: 345@345.com Message:

Subject: Sohmer Pianos From: David To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 21:08:08 (EDT) Email Address: macduff@music.com Message: The Sohmer grands and uprights were always beloved in piano teaching circles. Will Sohmer be resurrecting as Mason & Hamlin did recently?

Subject: kawai grand and other makes From: benjamin To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 10:05:01 (EDT) Email Address: benfoo30@hotmial.com Message: dear ppl out there,,i am looking for suggestions on brands and makes of good grand pianos...any advice on getting a grand? i am looking for a 5-6 foot grand with a budget of 13k..can anyone recommend me a brand that is good and suits my requiremnets?thanx alot

Subject: Re: kawai grand and other makes From: David Burton To: benjamin Date Posted: Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 15:36:42 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Depending on the sound you want and your location, you can find many reasonable deals on grand pianos in this size and price range. I recommend a good rebuilt piano, perhaps a Knabe originally made before 1930 or a Baldwin (the sleeper, see other posts about Baldwins on here, as many of us feel strongly that the 'Rodney Dangerfield' of pianos does deserve more respect). Look on the web for good deals on rebuilds, perhaps brands you never heard of before, then make arrangements to go see and play these. There are a lot of good deals out there if you are willing to do a little looking. Of course if you like Kawai pianos, check and see about buying a used one, but of course some of us have reservations about Asian pianos, how well they may hold up after years of steady playing, their sound, etc. Check out Boston pianos too. There's a lot to choose from. Good luck.

Subject: bass runs From: Marilyn To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 13:10:11 (EDT) Email Address: cna00054@mail.wvnet.edu Message: Can anyone share some different (and easy) bass runs or other kinds of fill-ins to get a fuller sound? Thanks.

Subject: Re: bass runs From: Marilyn To: Marilyn Date Posted: Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 13:13:38 (EDT) Email Address: cna00054@mail.wvnet.edu Message: Sorry, I noticed I am on the wrong forum. Excuse me, please.

Subject: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: ckay To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 10:23:53 (EDT) Email Address: anderson@ims.nci.nih.gov Message: Does anyone know anything about Schirmer & Sons piano manufacturers? I looked at a few of these pianos, but I can't find any information on them, besides what the piano shop told me. They said they were made in Estonia. Other question--I'm looking for quality pianos with a harder/firmer touch and a richer/deeper tone. Any suggestions on piano manufacturers which generally produce pianos with this type of action and tone?

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: John D. To: ckay Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 16:27:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know anything about Schirmer & Sons piano manufacturers? I looked at a few of these pianos, but I can't find any information on them, besides what the piano shop told me. They said they were made in Estonia. Other question--I'm looking for quality pianos with a harder/firmer touch and a richer/deeper tone. Any suggestions on piano manufacturers which generally produce pianos with this type of action and tone? --- Can you give us some idea on what your price range is and how large a piano you are looking for? Do you want only a new piano, or would a used one in good shape be ok? Petrof is certainly a good suggestion, but there are other makes that you might want to consider depending on how much you are willing to spend. Let us know. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: ckay To: John D. Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 10:51:41 (EDT) Email Address: anderson@ims.nci.nih.gov Message: Does anyone know anything about Schirmer & Sons piano manufacturers? I looked at a few of these pianos, but I can't find any information on them, besides what the piano shop told me. They said they were made in Estonia. Other question--I'm looking for quality pianos with a harder/firmer touch and a richer/deeper tone. Any suggestions on piano manufacturers which generally produce pianos with this type of action and tone? --- Can you give us some idea on what your price range is and how large a piano you are looking for? Do you want only a new piano, or would a used one in good shape be ok? Petrof is certainly a good suggestion, but there are other makes that you might want to consider depending on how much you are willing to spend. Let us know. Later, John D. --- Price range . . . that would be my problem. I definitely am only looking for uprights due to funding limitations. I guess $5,000 would be my upper limit, and I would prefer a studio-sized upright. I also am not opposed to buying used, if as you said the piano were in good shape. What pianos would you recommend? Thanks for the advice!

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: John D. To: ckay Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 14:24:31 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know anything about Schirmer & Sons piano manufacturers? I looked at a few of these pianos, but I can't find any information on them, besides what the piano shop told me. They said they were made in Estonia. Other question--I'm looking for quality pianos with a harder/firmer touch and a richer/deeper tone. Any suggestions on piano manufacturers which generally produce pianos with this type of action and tone? --- Can you give us some idea on what your price range is and how large a piano you are looking for? Do you want only a new piano, or would a used one in good shape be ok? Petrof is certainly a good suggestion, but there are other makes that you might want to consider depending on how much you are willing to spend. Let us know. Later, John D. --- Price range . . . that would be my problem. I definitely am only looking for uprights due to funding limitations. I guess $5,000 would be my upper limit, and I would prefer a studio-sized upright. I also am not opposed to buying used, if as you said the piano were in good shape. What pianos would you recommend? Thanks for the advice! --- Ckay, I really don't know much about uprights and their pricing, but I will say that I think Petrof grands are exceptionally nice. If their uprights are equally as nice as their grands, I'd second Bobb's suggestion. One word of warning; many times on this forum it has been reported that Petrof's suffer from insufficient dealer prep since they are not 'perfect' right out of the box. Therefore, make sure you are 100% satisfied with the piano BEFORE you buy it. Don't let the dealer convince you s/he will fix the problem after it is in your house. Best of luck and let us know what you decide and/or any other questions. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: bobb To: ckay Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 16:59:43 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Sounds to me like the 46' studio Petrof is your piano. The one in the European style without wheels is a couple of hundred cheaper, and I think looks neat. You should definitely be able to get it for under 5k - I would say not more than 4,500. Interestingly, though it obviously doesn't have a big tone, I liked it better than their 50' (I played a number of each). A technician and a dealer told me that they had the same sense, and that they are made in different factories.

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: bobb To: ckay Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 16:07:10 (EDT) Email Address: Barsky@umich.edu Message: I'm not sure whether the name Schirmer is used on grand pianos or not - if so, I think it is the same as the better known 'Estonia' grand. I think this is an uneven, but improving and often pretty nice European piano, a little like Petrof but either not as good or not as established (or both). I am specifically familiar with the Schirmer and Sons upright. I believe it is made in Poland 'in the German tradition', the manufacture says. I thought it was a lot like a Petrof upright. The one I tried last had a very mellow, but far too soft tone. I have a lot of trouble characterizing a lot of these pianos because the voicing is so inconsistent from one to another (or is the inconsistency in the soundboard?). Your description of what you are looking for sounds a lot like a Petrof - firm touch, rich sound. I am not impressed with their uprights, but the grands can be great.

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: Mat D. To: bobb Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 16:32:16 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: I have played a couple of Schirmer pianos & was not impressed. The tone was thin & nasal--not full & rich. BTW bobb, Petrof is a far superior instrument to Estonia or Schirmer IMHO. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Schirmer & Sons Piano From: bobb To: ckay Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 15:55:54 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message:

Subject: Piano Brands From: Norman Ford To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 11:16:08 (EDT) Email Address: normanf@vicksburg.org Message: I am currently in the market for a 7-foot grand piano. I know this is a can of worms, but what is the best brand, and why? Don't consider the price, I'll worry about that later. Just tell me about the brand comparisons. It would be very helpful if I could find an objective comparison of different brands. Thanks a million.

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: Mat D. To: Norman Ford Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 14:18:35 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Norman, The best piano is the one that has been set up by the best technician, assuming you start with a high quality instrument in the first place. The brands you should be looking at are Steinway (model B 6'10.5'), Mason & Hamlin (model BB 7'), Bosendorfer, Bechstein, Grotrian, Schimmel, Petroff (model II-7'9'), Baldwin, Kawai, Yamaha etc., etc. You must discover (by listening to many pianos) what type of tone you are looking for. The German pianos (to generalize) have a brighter, leaner pure tone while the American (Steinway, M&H, Baldwin) pianos have a more complex, fuller (I like to say richer) tone. The Japanese pianos have a brighter, more aggresive tone in general. The Petrof is a Czech Republic piano and leans toward the European sound a bit. These are mere generalizations and you must listen first, then find your category and start narrowing down from there. The most important factor if you are choosing from this list is the quality of your technician and your ability to communicate what you want out of the piano. You of course should start with the instrument that most closely comes to your ideal before even consulting the technician. Let us know how you are doing. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: Kevin Gardner To: Norman Ford Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:52:33 (EDT) Email Address: kwgardner@hotmail.com Message: I am currently in the market for a 7-foot grand piano. I know this is a can of worms, but what is the best brand, and why? Don't consider the price, I'll worry about that later. Just tell me about the brand comparisons. It would be very helpful if I could find an objective comparison of different brands. Thanks a million. --- I strongly suggest that you check into the Baldwin piano line, I highly recommend The Baldwin Grand pianos because of the touch and the tone of the piano. And if you are in the market of a studio piano, I also recommend the Baldwin Hamilton Piano HP243 (High Performance Model 243)

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: pianomama To: Norman Ford Date Posted: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 18:19:02 (EDT) Email Address: br549ab Message: A great source for you that I would recommend would be the piano book by larry fine. You could probably find it at your libary. Also, it really depends what you are going to use the piano for as to which brand would best suit your needs. please reply with more info. Good Luck

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: rukhavibul v.v. To: Norman Ford Date Posted: Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 10:33:30 (EDT) Email Address: aurum@asianet.co.th Message: I am currently in the market for a 7-foot grand piano. I know this is a can of worms, but what is the best brand, and why? Don't consider the price, I'll worry about that later. Just tell me about the brand comparisons. It would be very helpful if I could find an objective comparison of different brands. Thanks a million. ---

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: Cork To: Norman Ford Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 23:06:05 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am currently in the market for a 7-foot grand piano. I know this is a can of worms, but what is the best brand, and why? Don't consider the price, I'll worry about that later. Just tell me about the brand comparisons. It would be very helpful if I could find an objective comparison of different brands. Thanks a million. --- John's reply is excellent, particularly when he says: 'everyone will have an opinion and there is no 'right' answer'. The 'best' brand is that which satisfies the individual buyer. Having said that, you can narrow your search. Most authorities would agree that the finest instruments in current production include Steinway and M&H from the US, Bechstein, Bluethner, and August Foerster of Germany (and perhaps Grotrian), Boesendorfer of Austria, and Fazioli of Italy. With the exception of Boesendorfer with its unique spruce rim, the remainder share characteristics such as strong structures based on rims of maple or beech, sand-cast plates, high quality Renner (or Steinway) actions, and more traditional construction methods. Tone styles vary significantly among the group, though, so it is likely some brands will excite you and others leave you cold. Thus, a selection from this stellar group would require a highly personal decision. Additionally, there are brands perhaps just a step behind that others might include in this group. I can only add (in terms of your request for an objective comparison) that these are all well-built instruments with superb scale designs that are recognized as exceptional pianos around the world. Now, after you've discovered the price of the F212 Fazioli, the Model 213 or 225 Boesie, and the Bechstein B or C, let us know if you'd like some info on more reasonably priced instruments. Cork

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: John D. To: Norman Ford Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 22, 1999 at 19:19:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That's a tough question to answer, everyone will have an opinion and there is no 'right' answer. However, since I FINALLY just purchased a 7'4' grand, I'll tell you what I feel is the 'best' brand and why... I looked at 4 (really 5) different brands; Steinway (both the American made and German made), Mason & Hamlin, Falcone, and Boesendorfer. German Steinways sound different than American Steinways, so I'm counting them as two separate brands. My focus is on touch and tone - leaning more towards tone. Having lived in Germany for 2 years with access to the German instruments, I concluded that I preferred the tone of the American instruments. That left 3, almost identically priced instruments - a Steinway B, Mason & Hamlin BB and the Falcone BB. I like the complex sound of the Steinway(s) - I looked at many, but they lacked the depth of the Mason & Hamlin (in my opinion). Mason & Hamlin did not have as 'complex' a tone as did the Steinway. The Falcone had both complex tone and depth that surpassed even the M&H. However, Falcone is a no-name piano that is no longer in production. In the end, I decided to listen to what my ear was telling me and not what my practical head was telling me - so I bought the Falcone. In short, when you play the piano that you fall in love with, the name on the fall-board is not relevant.

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: David Burton To: John D. Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 16:56:36 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I for one think you made an excellent choice. There aren't that many Falcone pianos. I believe it was something that Mason & Hamlin had a hand in making which if true says something for them. I ran into one a while ago and was highly impressed. I'm sure you will have many happy years with this piano. Of course a good piano technician will also help you make this piano into what you most want it to be. Congratulations!

Subject: Re: Piano Brands From: John D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 10:23:42 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I for one think you made an excellent choice. There aren't that many Falcone pianos. I believe it was something that Mason & Hamlin had a hand in making which if true says something for them. I ran into one a while ago and was highly impressed. I'm sure you will have many happy years with this piano. Of course a good piano technician will also help you make this piano into what you most want it to be. Congratulations! --- David, I'm glad to hear someone has encountered a Falcone besides myself. I had two minor voicing problems after I purchased it but they are now fixed; I am in awe when I play it. Regarding Falcone's history, they were designed by Santi Falcone who based his design on similarly sized Steinways but incorporated refinements from other pianos. They were made in Haverhill, Mass. in the mid 80's thru the mid 90's. In the late 80's Falcone ran into financial difficulties and sold stock in the company to raise capital. Subsequently he lost controlling interest and was bought out by someone from Seattle. The new owner then purchased the scale-design rights to several pianos including Mason & Hamlin. For a while, Falcone's were sold along with M&H at the Haverhill factory. However, they were charging more for the Falcone than the M&H. Since M&H had a name, and Falcone did not, it was tough selling them at a higher price. As a result, they halted production of Falcone and focused on M&H at the high-end. Since that time The Mason & Hamlin Company (which the Falcone Piano Company was renamed) has changed owners. Nevertheless, M&H's are still manufactured in the same factory that originally produced Falcone's. Later, John D.

Subject: piano sounds From: M.A. To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 02:59:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would like to hear your opinion about piano sounds, i.e. how does Steinway sound different than Mason&Hamlin ? I am a beginer. I listened to most of the famous brands and all I can tell is they sound different, but I can't describe each individual sound. I would love to have you describe these sounds for me. English is not my mother tongue. The pianos which I would like to know are: Steinway, Mason&Hamlin,Grotrian, Seiler, Chickering, Knabe, Yamaha, Kawai,Young Chang, Baldwin. Thank you.

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: David Burton To: M.A. Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 02:15:19 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I am going to take a stab at this. I have wanted others to provide such descriptions from their own experience but I have had a lot of experience over the years with the sounds of various pianos. I have also tried to figure out just what makes pianos sound different from each other. OK, my comments will be for all brands of pianos mentioned in the preceding post in new or excellent working condition, competently rebuilt pianos are also included that I have actually played, grands only. The Steinway has the classic all around desirable sound. It has reasonable power but an over all polish to its tones throughout the entire piano from top to bottom. It is even fair to say that another brand of piano 'sounds like a Steinway'. Of particular note are the bell like tones in the treble and the rounded tones in the bass. A Steinway is the basis for all reasonable quality comparisons. The Mason & Hamlin has a 'mellower' smoother tone than a Steinway with a wonderful tenor section, the notes in the octave below middle c. It was often said that the M&H was the perfect piano to accompany singers. Frankly there are many aspects of this brand that I find if not preferable, at least as interesting to me as a Steinway. I am very glad that they still make new M&H pianos. They are making them after the best of their past models, they are definitely worth the money. The same piece played on a M&H will present the pianist with interesting darker and richer tones than on a Steinway. The actions on the classic M&H and the new ones are excellent. I do not know about those in the in between period, from 1930-1950. I have always enjoyed playing a good tuned up M&H. Their 7 foot BB grand is deservedly described as one of the most desirable pianos. This is a piano that can teach you as you play it Grotrian has a sound very close to Steinway, perhaps a bit harder and crisper throughout with an excellent responsive action. This is one of the great German pianos, the others are the Hamburg Steinways, the Bechstein, and my personal favorite, the Ibach, my pick for the best piano in the world. When I was in Switzerland many years ago I played through four floors of a massive piano dealer there and the Grotrians were among my favorites. I really liked the highly responsive action and repetition (playing the same note as fast as possible) and the trills, crisp and clear. Chickerings are of varying quality in sound and everything else. The best are the rebuilds from before 1930. The bigger the better. They have rich tones and if the actions are Renner or comparable, they are nice and responsive. They do not sound like Steinways. They have their own distinctive sound somewhere between a Steinway and a M&H but that is not an adequate description of the way they sound. My suspicion is that voicing of the hammers can do a lot to make a vintage Chickering sound any way that a particular pianist wants. The newer Chickerings were made by various makers and all sound 'cheaper' than those of the classic period before 1930. The biggest problem anyone will notice about the cheap type pianos are that 1) they may be easier to play, they have lighter touch than some of the brands already mentioned, although this can be adjusted somewhat, but 2) it is relatively more difficult to play really softly on many of them. Knabe is like Chickering but I like their sound better even in the shorter grands. But again only those pianos made before 1930 and restored or rebuilt. The rebuilt Knabe's have the advantages of new hammers and actions. These can be superb gems of pianos sounding every bit as distinctive as Steinways. The newer one's strike me as Kawai in disguise. Why pay more for a Knabe name if it's just a Kawai? Yamaha, Kawai,Young Chang. I'll lump these together as they are variants of the same thing to me with some variations. These are pianos that usually sound the same from one instrument to another. They have good sounding bass with a 'glassy' treble section. They have a sound that might be considered 'flashy' by some, 'thin' by others. They have all gotten better over time, especially Yamaha. I have played all three extensively and usually been thrilled at first only to be bored after a few months. There is something missing here, not sure what it is. Baldwin is the sleeping giant of American piano companies. They also have a wider variety of sound across their line than anyone else varying from downright dull to better than most Steinways. Again I am suspicious that this variation may be due to voicing as well as the innate characteristics of particular soundboards they use. I used to own a Baldwin model L, that's a 6'3' grand. It gave me many years of pleasure. It had great character and tons of power. The action was responsive too though not as fast as those Grotrians in Switzerland. Baldwins are great pianos for heavy playing. They can take it. Some of the others including Steinways particularly from the 1960's and 1970's have more finicky actions that will not take heavy playing without eventually requiring a technician to fix them to get rid of extra action noise. To me, Baldwin pianos represent an excellent value if you find the right one. Even the smaller grands if they are the one's I'm describing, bright, clear, are nice. I'd really like someone to take another stab at this and try to put into words just how these pianos sound different from each other and what factors contribute to their unique sound.

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: Cork To: David Burton Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 10:26:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Unfortunately, I do not have time for a long response, so I'll limit myself to a few comments. Baldwin: the Rodney Dangerfield of pianos. The Artist series are very fine instruments, from the Model R on up. I'd add to your description that Baldwin (like the original Chickerings) tend to emphasize the bass more than their competitors, and some people find them a bit too 'boomy' as a result. My impression is the sustain on a Baldwin might be slightly shorter than on an equivalent S&S or M&H, but I've never tried two side-by-side The 'Asian Sound': Tends to be bright, glassy, and short on sustain. Reasons are related to materials and construction methods. Woods readily available tend to be less dense than the maple employed in N. Am. or the beech employed in Europe. The lighter wood rims offer lower impedance to the sound energy in the sound board, and thus lower the power and the sustain of the instrument. Similarly, the V-Pro cast plates are thinner and less massive than the traditional sand cast plates, again lowering the impedance with the same result. To regain some of the power the designers employ a higher tension scale, which boosts power again at the expense of sustain, and also brightens the tone. The final element is the hammers, which are made in heated cauls and are thus too hard, adding to the brightness of the tone. Interestingly, many influential techs believe the Asian sound and the synthesizers we hear everyday have influenced our expectations of tone in a piano, with the result that the N. Am pianos are generally voiced brighter than they were 50 or 60 years ago. Another contributor to this is that most new pianos use hot-pressed hammers, which need to be softened (as Mat points out), and most people aren't aware of the benefits of voicing. S&S is one of the few that still begin with soft hammers and add hardener to bring up the tone. One last comment on the N. Am pianos: their tone is fairly complex, emphasizing overtones to add to the richness of the instrument. The classic Northern German instruments (Bechstein, et al) have a more pure tone with the emphasis on the fundamental and much less on the overtones. Within that broad generalization there are significant differences among the brands, of course. The Knabe name, by the way, is now used on pianos made by Young Chang, as is the Weber name. The old Knabe's, particularly from the 1890's and early 1900's, were among the finest pianos ever made. The Chickering name is applied to a less-expensive pair of instruments made by Baldwin; the larger of the two isn't bad for the price. It is wonderful that the piano market offers such diversity of tone, enabling the educated buyer to find the right instrument for his (or her) taste. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: David Burton To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 15:51:40 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 'Baldwin: the Rodney Dangerfield of pianos.' Cork. God that's funny! All I want to know is this, if Baldwin's aren't as popular as Steinways, how come fewer of them are ever offered for sale? Compare any source you want on the web, there are tons of Steinways for sale from all vintages. Where are all the Balwins? They're working! A good Baldwin is a keeper. I probably would have kept mine if I didn't have a need to move around a lot and besides I got a good deal on a Kurzweil 250 as a result in trade, and besides the Baldwin really needed a new set of bass strings, keyboard repair (I beat the heck out it) and revoicing. Oh one does see a few Baldwin consoles and uprights, but fewer grands for sale. Of course new Baldwins are still a lot cheaper than new Steinways and maybe even these days cheaper than new Yamahas! I continue to think that probably Baldwin represents one of the best values in a grand, the L, the SF, the SD especially. With revoicing, one could make them into just about anything one wants. The actions are good and they do hold up without showing typical signs of action wear, weird little noises, etc. Most technicians I've ever talked to have told me flat out they'd much rather work on a Baldwin than a Steinway. Wow, what does that say for Baldwin? For Steinway? Recently I got Ruth Loredo's complete Scriabin sonatas 2 CD album. She recorded the music on a Baldwin SD10 concert grand. It's a great illustration of what Baldwin sound is all about; BIG, strong, muscular, tensile and bell like in the treble. Yeah a Baldwin is sort of like your All-American piano, big, strong, built to take it, etc. A lot of top flight jazz musicians prefer Baldwin too. Is Baldwin underrated? You bet! But all you need to do after you've been given the bum's rush out of Steinway Hall is go around the corner to Baldwin's store in Manhattan. Not only will you get better treatment but you'll be able to play a lot of great pianos that don't feel as if they'll break under you.

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 00:03:23 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, The one thing that my local Steinway dealer does right is provide (1) full year of tech support --- unlimited. That is a service that more piano dealers need to provide. Unfortunately, most people don't know a good piano tone from a bad one; worse yet, all you hear now is loud, bright voicings to excite these unaware piano buyers. That is the reason most dealers don't bother; not enough demand or even complaints for this service. There is a price for this Steinway service though, that is: retail plus tax on a new Steinway --- no deals! I'm a pretty good shopper, but I was quoted $59k+ on a Steinway B --- -it's a good thing I like my M&H BB more than any Steinway I found or I would still be uneasy about my decision and would have had to spend even more money (retail on the Steinway B is approx. $10,000 more than the M&H BB--that's the price you pay for all those 'Steinway Artists' that need support!). If I hadn't found the M&H I might have bought the Baldwin SF10 and set a few hundred bucks aside for a 'real' voicing (maybe even a new set of hammers if needed). There is some terrific pricing available on this piano. Regards, Mat D

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 01:00:50 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Well Matt, I personally think you got the better piano. Nothing at this point makes me salivate more than the prospect of playing a Mason & Hamlin BB. It has a rim made out of poplar, which is close to and perhaps superior to the European beech used in pianos like the Bechstein, Grotrian and Ibach. Although a piano rim serves a different purpose in the process of producing sound, most of the best harpsichords have poplar cases. And the Mason & Hamlin uses a white spruce for their soundboards which is different from the Sitka spruce usually used by others including Baldwin and Steinway and here there may be a big difference in the sound produced. I do think as always that the Baldwin is the sleeper of the lot, probably the best piano currently made for the money, the SF in particular is one of my favorites.

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 23:48:20 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, Excellent review! You are correct when you say that many of these new 'bright' (Yamaha & some other Asian) pianos are at first, exciting to an inexperienced ear but their tone will soon become boring, if not down right irritating. I own a Mason & Hamlin BB and played many Steinway B's before deciding on the M&H--the tone of my piano is just more interesting to my ear. I did however hire the best technician in the area to do a major voicing job on my M&H (1) year after my purchase; he finished today and even the technician fell in love with my piano. The reason I needed the 'major' voicing was because the Renner hammers that come on many of the new pianos (mine included) tend to be very hard and the piano quickly (less than a year) becomes bright; Del Fandrich advised me about this problem and I learned quite a lot from my correspondence with him via e-mail. He advised me that my technician was exactly right in the approach he took on my hammers. My technician took a major step and 'juiced' (saturated) my hammers (he took the entire action to his workshop to monitor the process) w/ a water alcohol solution, bringing them back to a very soft hammer and built the tone from there. The advantage of this is that I got a soft hammer that was built up and not needled to death to bring it down. Much of the 'minor' voicing by needling is temporary and the problem returns very quickly--it is also quite damaging (in the long run) to the hammers as it is physically invasive. Lastly, I agree that Baldwin is truly the American sleeping giant. They are not as consistent as Steinway or M&H but with the help of a good technician they can be made to sound great. They are an excellent value but one should set aside a bit of money to have a good voicing job done on them. My technician told me (he was a 'Baldwin Artist' technician/tuner) that with good voicing, a Baldwin 7' can be one of the finest instruments you can find. The bottom line on all of this is that an excellent technician who does an excellent voicing makes all of the difference. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: piano sounds From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 02:24:20 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 'The bottom line on all of this is that an excellent technician who does an excellent voicing makes all of the difference.' Matt D. The importance of what Matt has said is really one of the things that hardly anyone out there even knows about. When they do become aware of it, there will be more demand for qualified voicing technicians in the piano business. I expect that master piano technicians and piano tuners may want to add this to their knowledge and experience as they will in most cases be doing voicing in the homes of their clients, where the piano is an integral part of an acoustic environment. Most people when they walk into a piano store suppose that the sound of a piano they hear is either the best that the instrument can produce or something typical of that piano or those manufactured by a particular company. Well there are similarities in the sounds of pianos made by the same manufacturer. There is an 'American Steinway sound' and there is a 'Yamaha sound' and I think there is a 'Mason & Hamlin sound' as well as a 'German piano sound' and maybe even a 'French piano sound' and there is most definately an 'Eastern European sound', the Petrofs, the Estonia, the old rebuilt Becker if you can find one, etc. I haven't yet played or heard a Fazioli, but again they probably have something unique to recommend them. But how this basic sound can be altered by proper voicing of the hammers, even the nature of the differences in hammer felt densities and hardness has remained for the most part a mystery to most people. I also commend Matt for making mention of the efficacy of juicing rather than excessive needling, also the obvious tendency of a voicing by mere needling to return to shrillness and brightness within a short period of time. Much more discussion of this topic needs to be done here. Technicians who do not yet know how to do a proper voicing should get this information and experience. Piano retailers should also be open to recommend the voicing as an after sale option and recommend those who are actually somehow certified to undertake such an important operation as the revoicing of a piano.

Subject: Compensation of the 'Store Technician' and Incentives for Quality Work From: bobb To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 22:10:52 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I am expecting this coming week the technician designated by my Petrof dealer, in the hope that he can fix up my new - and truly abominable - 50' upright. This piano is a mess as it stands now. Perhaps the technician will find that he can fix the problems fairly readily, but I am afraid there might be a fair bit of work there (see my next post about the question of 'lemons'). And, from what all of you tell me, the dealer owes me extensive voicing if I so choose (and, as bad as my piano technique is, my ears are easily offended!). Here is the general problem which I want to raise, and which I suspect has implications for a lot of you out there. I have the impression from Larry Fine that dealers do not compensate the technicians they send to their customers at all well for their work. Is that true? If so, I am in the uncomfortable position of either appearing 'demanding' with the technician - who after all is not to blame either for Petrof's slovenliness or my dealer's broken promise to prepare the instrument well in advance - or being unsatisfied. The problem, I guess, is that it is the dealer who owes me, but the technician with whom I am in contact. Only if the technician is duly compensated for everything he and I decide needs doing is the 'incentive compatibility' there. Any reactions, especially from technicians who have been in the middle before?

Subject: Re: Compensation of the 'Store Technician' and Incentives for Quality Work From: David Burton To: bobb Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 22, 1999 at 00:43:40 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: With great deference to both John and Matt, I believe that most of the public is unaware of the role of a good piano technician in the business of owning and maintaining a piano. The only comparable analogy I can think of is with a car and an auto mechanic. The best cars require the least amount of maintenance as we all know, but they still must have their oil changed regularly, other fluids need to be checked, tires need to be monitored for wear, etc. etc. One can often change one's oil, one cannot tune one's own piano. It is a specialty and should probably remain such. It will be enough of a challenge for most people to learn to play a piano well. A piano is a very complex piece of machinery. As it is used it absorbs wear and tear. The best ones stand the test of time and like good diesel engines, eventually get themselves rebuilt for another three generations or so of expected relatively continuous use. The role of the piano technician is similar to that of an auto mechanic but depending on the piano and the performance demands of the piano owner, the relationship may be more occasional; you will want to have your piano tuned at least twice a year for example, as this is good for the piano, and a better sounding piano gets more use. Actually pianos and cars are similar in that they do benefit from being used. When both sit idle for too long thay do not tend to work as well. If I were buying a cheaper, and they are, Eastern European import piano that I knew had more setup to do (finishing that was supposed to have been done at the factory), I'd try and get the lowest possible price for it, knowing that I will have to get a technician in to make it into what I want it to be anyway and pay for that technician's time and services above and beyond what I pay for the piano. I'd make this pretty clear to the dealer too. I expect that I will have my technician go with me to inspect the piano when I get close to closing the deal as part of a final phase. It is customary for a dealer to offer the customer a free tuning and they recommend technicians. It may be something of a shock to some to have a technician come in to tune a new piano and be harangued with questions that infer that the piano is not 'finished' or is in some other was defective. As it turns out some pianos are in need of a little 'finishing' including action work, stuck keys, other noises, lubrication, and in some cases considerable revoicing. As has been pointed out repeatedly in these posts, a voicing technician is a specialist, someone who has a proper training and experience in voicing pianos, above and beyond the requirements for a piano tuner. It is also a time consuming process. Time is money. Voicing jobs can cost up to $500 and more. If the dealer is really made to be responsible for this well it would probably break any number of dealers. Maybe that's why the Asian pianos have done so well, they are factory voiced to an almost identical standard. If a customer likes one of those pianos, they will like any one of them, since they almost sound the same. The Eastern Europeans are coming out from a long period of ........ communism. It will take them a while to get their work ethic together I expect. I still think they have a good product. I just think that if they aren't going to bother fixing the little things that their market may get away from them. The low end of the piano business is hotly competitive, this is where most of the pianos, new or old are. I am making a strong pitch here for the role of good piano technicians. As far as I am concerned they make my piano worth playing day in and day out. Even if I had something extraordinary I'd still make sure it was seen at least twice a year by a good piano technician and no I do not expect that dealers can or should be held accountable for everything, but I do expect that if something is really unfinished or a piece of junk then that's what they should be worth and what a dealer should get for it; as little of my money as possible.

Subject: Re: Compensation of the 'Store Technician' and Incentives for Quality Work From: Granholm Bros To: bobb Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:34:56 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I'll add to Mat's comments. I worked for a couple of years as a dealer's technician. It's true that store techs are poorly compensated for their time--mine was at about half the going rate for the same work done for customers outside the store. Also, I felt a constant squeeze between the needs of the customer, who wants a piano that works well, and the needs and expectations of the dealer and the manufacturer (who pays for warranty work) that the bottom line look as healthy as possible. The theory is that in return for the discount the dealer gets from you (the piano technician), he gives you all his outside piano tuning referrals, and he figures you get the after-warranty tuning, repair, voicing, etc. on all the pianos he sells. You also get to be an 'official' technician for whatever brand of piano your dealer sells, even though you may have little or no training with that particular make of piano. I didn't like this arrangement much, although it did bring me lots of business, and I was working for a reputable dealer who sold good (Baldwin) pianos. I have now worked independently for many years. I am still on good terms with the dealer and do some contract specialized work for them, and I still get their occasional referrals for rebuilding work. It's a better arrangement for me. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Compensation of the 'Store Technician' and Incentives for Quality Work From: Mat D. To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 18:57:20 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Bobb, Theoretically the dealer owes you the proper voicing of the piano he sells. Proper, of course is a subjective term but you seem like a reasonable person who I think has a pretty good feel for the situation. You don't want to push too hard on the technician, yet you want the job done correctly. You must go back to the owner and demand that this problem be resolved. You may explain to him as you did here that you are uncomfortable pushing the technician too hard for the afformentioned reasons. This situation is quite common with Petrof pianos. In general they are excellent pianos but their pricing is competitive because there is very little set-up at the factory; that is why it is all imporatant to deal with a reputable dealer. Unfortunately, if your dealer does not respond to your demands, you are forced to deal with this problem by paying a technician to do the work. Fortunately, most voicing problems can be dealt with but you MUST get the very best technician possible. Be sure that his area of expertise is voicing; there are some excellent technicians that know the mechanics of the instrument very well but they are not particularly good voicers --- very important to know how to describe your problem and to be able to verbalise your expectation. Best of luck--hang in there, it can probably be taken care of; the worst case scenerio is that you will have to pay, or maybe supplement payment for these services. Best regards, Mat D.

Subject: Spinet-Henry F. Miller From: C. Averkin To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:39:09 (EDT) Email Address: averkin@nvbell.net Message: I have just inherited a spinet piano manufauctured by Henry F. Miller, 100th Anniversary edition, 1963. I live about 150 miles from the site of the piano and would like to sell it. Is it best to deal with dealers in the area of the piano's location? Or should I have it tuned by a qualified techinian and try to sell it myself? A matching bench comes with it. Thank you.

Subject: Re: Spinet-Henry F. Miller From: David Burton To: C. Averkin Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 23:43:27 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Hummmmm...... ok my advice is to save yourself as much grief as possible and find a local dealer who will sell it for you. If you want my take on the real 'down and dirty' about pianos read my post 'All Those Makes and Models of Pianos'. Henry F. Miller is an old brand all right though I bet your 100 anniversary edition was built by Aeolian or somebody like that rather than H.F.Miller. A lot of these brands were bought up by other makers when the majority of piano makers went under during the Great Depression. It's hard to say just what you'll make out of it, honestly I imagine not that much because there is just too much competition from new entry level pianos in that size and probable price range. Spinets are the smallest size therefore the least amount of money.

Subject: Heavy Action From: David To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 01:45:57 (EDT) Email Address: macduff@music.com Message: I have a Baldwin/Howard grand (made during the late 70's by Kawai) that has a heavy action. Could regulation of the action alone help to lighten it? Or, would the metal weights in the keys need to be replaced with lighter ones?

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: Niles Duncan To: David Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 03:24:23 (EDT) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: Was this action heavy from the day it was new, or did it become that way over the years? There can be a number of causes for an action to be excessively heavy. Some of these are friction in the action centers caused by too tight pinning or corrosion which can be addressed by repinning or lubricating, key bushings that are too tight, replacement of action parts such as hammers with new parts that are heavier than the originals... Hammers that have been voiced too softly can create the illusion of a heavy action because it takes so much effort to produce tone... Things like this should be checked out before screwing around with the lead weights in the keys. I'm not sure of this, but back in the days this piano was made I think Kawai was using on some of their grand actions a type of whippen that has a European style auxillary spring which provides an assist and allows less lead weights to be used in the keys. If it has these springs, regulating the springs can make a difference in the touch weight. You need to get your technician involved in analyzing the action. Speaking as someone who is both a rebuilder and a classical pianist, I think this stuff about how wonderful heavy actions are is nuts. Almost all modern grand actions have a down weight measured in grams in the range of the high 40's to low 50's. I would practically say that this is an international standard. It's what you are going to find in the concert hall. Combined with properly voiced hammers this is comfortable, totally responsive, allows the full range of dynamic expression, and lets you play for hours without getting tired. There just isn't any reason to want it heavier. I know the 'walking on eggs' feeling when playing a piano. This is in just about every case I've seen not that the action is too light, but that the hammers haven't felt the attention of file and voicing needles for much too long and have become like rocks. Even a heavy action will feel too light if hammer maintenance has been neglected.

Subject: more 'action' From: Mat D. To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 23:22:23 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Niles, When I refered to 'heavy', I meant on the upper side of your normal gram weight range. I certainly would not want to play a 62 gram keyboard for long. You are right when you say that a piano that is not properly voiced can't be controled no matter what weight the action is. I am not a technician but outside of friction problems, what is the best method of lightening an action? It is my understanding that adding weight is really the only method if everything else is in proper order. If any knows, I am interested. Thank you, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: David Burton To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 02:24:25 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Niles' post made so much sense that I am going to agree with him on this point. I'm sure that a lot of it had to do with hammers that had gone hard. I had nothing heavier in mind than between 45 and 55 grams, that last probably being too heavy. Great post, thanks Niles.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: David To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 17:22:02 (EDT) Email Address: macduff@music.com Message: Years ago in music school, I endured playing on practice room uprights and teaching studio grands that (according to the piano department head) had been specially ordered with heavier weights installed in order to 'develop' our fingers. This was basically cruel, since this school also required one to pass a technique jury of scales and arpeggios at the quarter note = 120 (or, if possible, 132). My piano technician always says that the action of my piano is on the heavy side, but that it is not among the heaviest he has ever played. So, I am relectant to have any major surgery done. I would prefer, however, a 'moderate' feel to the action. I guess I'll need to get some other technicians' opinions.

Subject: Additional Comments From: David To: David Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 17:41:21 (EDT) Email Address: macduff@music.com Message: The action has always been somewhat heavy, but it has gotten a little 'sluggish' recently--I suspect that this might be corrected with lubrication. The original heaviness, I hope, can be regulated out. I have heard that the Kawai action is infamous for needing attention to regulation for this problem. I don't feel the need to leather away so much at finger strength at this stage of my playing life, so there is no benefit from a heavy action.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: Charlie To: David Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 12:41:08 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I have a Baldwin/Howard grand (made during the late 70's by Kawai) that has a heavy action. Could regulation of the action alone help to lighten it? Or, would the metal weights in the keys need to be replaced with lighter ones? --- I bought a new grand piano with action a bit stiffer than I like. At the first tuning, the piano technician made some adjustments and lubricated some parts, which made a world of difference. In all, he spent almost 3 hours on the piano, including tuning. The dealer paid for this one, so I don't know what he would have charged, but tuners get from 70 to 90 for a tuning, so I'm guessing this adjustment would have run close to that. In short, if you have a technician you trust, ask him/her about what can be done. I am sure that you can get some improvement, but how much??? Ask the technician.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: Mark Mandell To: Charlie Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 19:32:14 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: I have a Baldwin/Howard grand (made during the late 70's by Kawai) that has a heavy action. Could regulation of the action alone help to lighten it? Or, would the metal weights in the keys need to be replaced with lighter ones? --- I bought a new grand piano with action a bit stiffer than I like. At the first tuning, the piano technician made some adjustments and lubricated some parts, which made a world of difference. In all, he spent almost 3 hours on the piano, including tuning. The dealer paid for this one, so I don't know what he would have charged, but tuners get from 70 to 90 for a tuning, so I'm guessing this adjustment would have run close to that. In short, if you have a technician you trust, ask him/her about what can be done. I am sure that you can get some improvement, but how much??? Ask the technician. --- No, you would by no means want to replace the metal lead weights in the keys(unless of course, some tech installed them in an attempt to achieve a heavier action which is a drastic measure to do). Regulation might help which would include easing the key bushings, cleaning the guide rail pins and lubricating the hammer action centers. If this is also a problem without the sustain pedal being used, then altering the hammer-damper timing would help to some degree.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: David Burton To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 17:22:20 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: After all the above has been said, I am going to put my two cents in from a pianist's point of view. A lot of people have had the notion that a piano with a lighter touch is good. This has been one of the biggest misconceptions I can think of. A light touch, like playing on eggshells, does not develop the finger muscles as one plays, does not require the pianist to use the arms, in short all the things that a harder action would tend to force on the pianist. Also a harder action often allows a pianist far greater dynamic range from a very soft, pp, pianissimo to a ver loud, ff, forissimo. Frequently the light touch instruments do not. After you get the action properly regulated by a technician so that the problem is not due to something having to do with unwanted friction in the action, play the piano for a few weeks and notice after that time how much less the hardness of the touch bothers you. Also notice how much dynamic range you can get from very simple and subtle changes in playing.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 20:20:14 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, Excellent advice! My M&H BB has what some would describe as a 'heavier' action but the instrument is so responsive and dynamic that if the action were 'light', I would not be able to control it. It's a beautiful thing and few people (even pianists) recognize this. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Heavy Action From: John D. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 12:43:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have to agree with Mat D. and David. I prefer a slightly heavier action for the same reasons they cite - control. I have a Falcone 7'4', Renner action, down-weight is 52 grams. I also had a Yamaha C7 and a Steinway B. Yamaha action felt 'shallow' in that the keys did not depress far enough before they hit the strings. Steinway was simply too light for my taste. Perhaps it has to do with the kind of music one plays or maybe just personal taste? Later, John D.

Subject: Piano From: Michael To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 21, 1999 at 19:27:11 (EDT) Email Address: coolnew96@aol.com Message: Trying to figure out when and where a Schafer & Sons Grand piano was built. Model # 841459. Thanks.

Subject: Kawai Grands From: Lucille To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 23:18:24 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is anyone out there familiar with Kawai Grands? Can you tell me the difference between the RX-A and the RX-5? What goes into the construction of the RX-A to warrent the difference in price? What does the RX-A sound like compared to the RX-5 or RX-6? Thanks for any information you can give me.

Subject: Re: Kawai Grands From: Cork To: Lucille Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 11:51:58 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is anyone out there familiar with Kawai Grands? Can you tell me the difference between the RX-A and the RX-5? What goes into the construction of the RX-A to warrent the difference in price? What does the RX-A sound like compared to the RX-5 or RX-6? Thanks for any information you can give me. --- Lucille, I'm sorry I do not have much real information to offer, only conjecture. My guess is the Kawai's Artisan series, of which only the RX-A remains, was an attempt by Kawai to establish a higher quality, low production line to compete with high range instruments such as Steinway. From what I can recall, the RX-A tone is more complex and less 'Asian' than the older KG/GS series. My guess is that RX-A is more labor intensive and uses higher quality hardwoods in the rim than the standard mass-produced RX-5 or RX-6. Also, I think the RX-A was a test-bed for new ideas at Kawai, and I suspect the new RX series, which replaced the KG/GS pianos, incorporate some of the features of the RX-A. I'm not a fan of the typical Asian piano's tone, but I find the RX Kawais to be the most interesting of the lot. Again, this is all just conjecture, but since no one else responded I thought I'd give you some things to consider. Cork

Subject: Yamaha Grands From: Don Creswell To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 13:03:10 (EDT) Email Address: dcreswell@sdg.com Message: I am considering purchase of a Yamaha C-3 piano and wonder about differences, caveats, etc., in purchasing a C-3 from the early 70s. The new series of Yamahas have combined the former G and C lines. Should I be looking for a newer model?

Subject: Re: Yamaha Grands From: Mat D. To: Don Creswell Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 01:22:41 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Don & Matt, I believe it's a little difficult to say how long a Yamaha piano will last because much has to do with maintenance, climate etc. One thing you can be sure is that it will not last as long as a Steinway or Mason & Hamlin, however, if you like the feel a sound of the piano, have it checked out and buy it. If the piano action is really beat (sloppy side-side feel) and the sound is harsh (nasal & bright) forget it but if it feels nice & tight and sounds to your liking you should be fine. Do be sure to have a good technician look at it because there are some issues you need to be advised about, such as voicing possibilities & regulation. My best advice would be to buy the best possible piano you can afford-even if you have to extend yourself a little; if you can hold out for a nice used Steinway or Mason & Hamlin, you'll be better off. Another possibility is a Schimmel--new or used. They used to make a 6'8' that was fabulous and if you can find one of these, be sure to check it out. Keep in touch, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Yamaha Grands From: Jesse Brooks Bullard To: Don Creswell Date Posted: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 12:22:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am considering purchase of a Yamaha C-3 piano and wonder about differences, caveats, etc., in purchasing a C-3 from the early 70s. The new series of Yamahas have combined the former G and C lines. Should I be looking for a newer model? --- Since the life of a Yamaha is somewhat limited due to the quality of materials used in the pinblock and other factors used in the construction , it is recommended that a purchaser go with the newer model due to the fact that no matter what model you get from Yamaha, it is going to be pretty much best when new. This is not the only reason you should make your decision based on age because Yamaha may have possibly improved its materials over the years. The most important issue one should question would be the one about the tradeoff that they want. In this case, you should ask yourself if you want a piano with a good tone, but a short life; or do you want a piano with a good tone, but a long life.

Subject: Re: Yamaha Grands From: Don Creswell To: Jesse Brooks Bullard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 16:39:55 (EDT) Email Address: dcreswell@sdg.com Message: I am considering purchase of a Yamaha C-3 piano and wonder about differences, caveats, etc., in purchasing a C-3 from the early 70s. The new series of Yamahas have combined the former G and C lines. Should I be looking for a newer model? --- Since the life of a Yamaha is somewhat limited due to the quality of materials used in the pinblock and other factors used in the construction , it is recommended that a purchaser go with the newer model due to the fact that no matter what model you get from Yamaha, it is going to be pretty much best when new. This is not the only reason you should make your decision based on age because Yamaha may have possibly improved its materials over the years. The most important issue one should question would be the one about the tradeoff that they want. In this case, you should ask yourself if you want a piano with a good tone, but a short life; or do you want a piano with a good tone, but a long life. --- Jesse, you mentioned 'long life' - can you give me some idea of what 'long' is? Like 50 years? Or 10-20?

Subject: Re: Yamaha Grands From: Don Creswell To: Jesse Brooks Bullard Date Posted: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 16:38:58 (EDT) Email Address: dcreswell@sdg.com Message: I am considering purchase of a Yamaha C-3 piano and wonder about differences, caveats, etc., in purchasing a C-3 from the early 70s. The new series of Yamahas have combined the former G and C lines. Should I be looking for a newer model? --- Since the life of a Yamaha is somewhat limited due to the quality of materials used in the pinblock and other factors used in the construction , it is recommended that a purchaser go with the newer model due to the fact that no matter what model you get from Yamaha, it is going to be pretty much best when new. This is not the only reason you should make your decision based on age because Yamaha may have possibly improved its materials over the years. The most important issue one should question would be the one about the tradeoff that they want. In this case, you should ask yourself if you want a piano with a good tone, but a short life; or do you want a piano with a good tone, but a long life. ---

Subject: Construction of Yamaha Grands From: Matt To: Jesse Brooks Bullard Date Posted: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 23:31:20 (EDT) Email Address: mdg100@aol.com Message: Because my family has been weighing piano choices with the Yamaha grand as one of them, I am concerned with your reply. We often hear, and Larry Fine agrees, that pianos have a life span of 25-50 more years. Yet you have said that a Yamaha uses less than quality materials and seem to say that age is a real detriment. Are all moderately priced pianos built similarly today? We have been particulary interested in the Baldwin and Kawai instruments. How do these compare to Yamaha in construction? Additionally, what other names might we look at in our quest for a mid-range instrument? Many thanks, Matt

Subject: Re: Construction of Yamaha Grands From: David Burton To: Matt Date Posted: Tues, Jul 20, 1999 at 03:06:46 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I am going to have to weigh in here in favor of Baldwin, the sleeping giant of the American piano industry, because they are in fact built very well, better than anything in Asia in my opinion. About four months ago I visited someone outside of Boston who had just procured an ancient Baldwin and was astonished to find it in excellent tune, playability and tone. He had considered a complete rebuild and still might do it, but he was convinced that he could make it work for him for another five or even ten years, the thing was like a 1919 vintage. I myself owned a Baldwin L from the late forties and it really held up well although by the time I sold it it was showing signs of needing a lot more help than I really wanted to put into it at the time. I have always had the greatest suspicion that a good Baldwin can be so much more improved in its tone by revoicing it down a bit, making it a softer toned piano. But I have no complaints about the way most Baldwins play. If I was making an investment for more than 20 years and my choices were among Baldwin, Yamaha and Kawai, I'd go with the Baldwin first, the Kawai second and the Yamaha last. I am favorably impressed with Yeung Chang, better than Yamaha, not sure I like them better than Kawai though. I haven't made many comments about Asian pianos because I just haven't been very impressed by them, but I really don't want to disparage anything someone else might like. I did know a college piano teacher who routinely had two seven foot Yamahas in his house and sold them off and bought new every two to five years. Great I guess if you can do that. He really played the heck out of them too, Chopin, Liszt, Rachmaninoff.

Subject: Re: Construction of Yamaha Grands From: Jesse Brooks Bullard To: Matt Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 09:42:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Because my family has been weighing piano choices with the Yamaha grand as one of them, I am concerned with your reply. We often hear, and Larry Fine agrees, that pianos have a life span of 25-50 more years. Yet you have said that a Yamaha uses less than quality materials and seem to say that age is a real detriment. Are all moderately priced pianos built similarly today? We have been particulary interested in the Baldwin and Kawai instruments. How do these compare to Yamaha in construction? Additionally, what other names might we look at in our quest for a mid-range instrument? Many thanks, Matt --- The first big citicism I would have with the Yamaha pinblock of any model is that they all contain cut-thread tuning pins. The tuning pins may hold tighter when the piano is new, but the rougher threads can wear out a pinblock faster than a piano with finer threaded nickel-plated tuning pins used in Kawai or the nickel-plated blue tuning pins used in Baldwin. Even though both, Kawai and Baldwin seem to be pretty close with the quality of the pinblocks, I would recommend the D.H. Baldwin and Baldwin Artist Grand because the oxidation on the end of these tuning pins give adequate friction to the pinblock, but don't cut and wear away the pinblock. Kawai has a more durable pinblock than Yamaha, but has more potential to fail than that of Baldwin simply because it uses the regular Nickel-Plated tuning pins. Baldwin also uses approaches that are similar to Steinways that make it more reliable than the Japanese pianos that you can buy today, but does not reach Steinway in quality. (I could relate to this because I got a 1906 Baldwin 5' 4' 'Scale G' Artist Grand sitting in my home which lasted up to approximately 80 years before it ever had to be rebuilt.)

Subject: Re: Yamaha Grands From: alvinator To: Don Creswell Date Posted: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 19:56:33 (EDT) Email Address: aries@csrlink.net Message: I have a 3 month old C3, it is a beautiful sounding instrument. I am well pleased with it.

Subject: Grand Pianos From: Randy To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 13:24:22 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecabotgroup.com Message: Help, I some expert and experienced opinion on the purchase of a grand piano. I have been charged wiht obtaining a piano to be used in a wintergarden. My problem is this. 95% of the time this will be a decorative piece of furnature.5% of the time it will be played by students and faculty of a world renowned music shcool that's located across the street. Based on my budget and what I've learned about pianos recently (I don't play) I've narrowed my choces down to a new Kawai RX-2 ($12,000)or a Young Chang PG-175($11,900). I am also considering a disc player system.The only one that I have seen so far is the PianomationMIDI ($4,995). Please share with me your thoughts on my choices ( and prices, I certainly didn't do as well as Dawn !! ) I need to decide this by next week so please get back to me as soon as you can. ........ Randy

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Mat D. To: Randy Date Posted: Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 03:07:27 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Randy, I can't speak for the other DiscPlayers, but 'pianodisc' has the advantage of being able to play a 'Standard MidiFile' directly (no file conversion). The reason this is an advantage is that there are literally thousands of free 'Standard MidiFiles' available on the web; these files have the extension .mid Best of Luck, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: randy To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 16:16:13 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecabotgroup.com Message: Randy, I can't speak for the other DiscPlayers, but 'pianodisc' has the advantage of being able to play a 'Standard MidiFile' directly (no file conversion). The reason this is an advantage is that there are literally thousands of free 'Standard MidiFiles' available on the web; these files have the extension .mid Best of Luck, Mat D. --- Mat D., Update !! It's a done deal .... Kawai RX-2 with Pianodic. Now I'd be very interested in the addresses of the web sites that you referr to where I can down load some music. Thanks again. Randy

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Mat D. To: randy Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 11:21:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Randy, This is just one example: Remember some are complete arrangements etc. you will have to sort thru. Obviosly, classical piano files are simple. You will have to do a little experimentation until you find a good source. http://www.dreamscape.com/frankvad/free.music.html

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: randy To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 10:06:33 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecabotgroup Message: Thanks for all your help.

Subject: Nice MidiSite! From: Mat D. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 17:46:42 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Randy: --- here's a nice Chopin midi site!!! Copy this into 'keyword' & 'go' http://www.hotbot.com/director.asp?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esignet%2Enl%2F%7Elando%2Fwelcome%2Ehtml&id=18&userid=3AZQXcpmQEga&query=MT=midi+files+and+free&base=10&NOS=10&rsource=INK_DH Good luck Mat D.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Mat D. To: randy Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 11:12:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Randy, I just swapped my computer hardware & no longer have old addresses available at this momont but just type in 'midifiles' on one of the search engines & you'll be presented with more than you can handle. There are many websites with free midifiles in all music styles. If you still can't find wgat you want, let me know. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Randy To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 11:18:49 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecabotgroup.com Message: Mat, Thank you for you reply. We have in fact chosen the Pianodisc systmem to go with our(probably) Kawai RX-2 to be installed 'at the factory'. Thanks again, all of the feedback we received from this Web site has been very valuable. Randy

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Cork To: Randy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:42:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As long as you buy a reputable brand (and both YC and Kawai fit into that category, in my opinion) you should be fine. There are a number of interesting player systems available, including PianoDisc which is available separately or 'factory installed' in a piano labelled Knabe but made by YC (I believe). Yamaha's system is also good, available only on new Yamaha pianos. Baldwin also has a fine system called Concertmaster (?). So as you can see, choice of piano could dictate a system or vice versa. I would suggest that you investigate all these alternatives and choose the one that best strikes a chord with you (sorry for the pun). Cork

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: John D. To: Randy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 13:44:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Help, I some expert and experienced opinion on the purchase of a grand piano. I have been charged wiht obtaining a piano to be used in a wintergarden. My problem is this. 95% of the time this will be a decorative piece of furnature.5% of the time it will be played by students and faculty of a world renowned music shcool that's located across the street. Based on my budget and what I've learned about pianos recently (I don't play) I've narrowed my choces down to a new Kawai RX-2 ($12,000)or a Young Chang PG-175($11,900). I am also considering a disc player system.The only one that I have seen so far is the PianomationMIDI ($4,995). Please share with me your thoughts on my choices ( and prices, I certainly didn't do as well as Dawn !! ) I need to decide this by next week so please get back to me as soon as you can. ........ Randy --- Randy, I played a few Young Chang pianos about 5 years ago and I was not impressed. I do know that YC changed some things in the past few years to improve their pianos, but I have not played the newer ones. Nevertheless, I believe the students/faculty would prefer the Kawai. This is just my opinion. Perhaps a better idea would be for you to walk across the street and ask the faculty which one they would prefer? Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Cork To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:51:40 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, John's idea of getting input from your friends across the street is superb. I wish I'd read his message first. cv

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Randy To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:51:26 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecabotgroup.com Message: Help, I some expert and experienced opinion on the purchase of a grand piano. I have been charged wiht obtaining a piano to be used in a wintergarden. My problem is this. 95% of the time this will be a decorative piece of furnature.5% of the time it will be played by students and faculty of a world renowned music shcool that's located across the street. Based on my budget and what I've learned about pianos recently (I don't play) I've narrowed my choces down to a new Kawai RX-2 ($12,000)or a Young Chang PG-175($11,900). I am also considering a disc player system.The only one that I have seen so far is the PianomationMIDI ($4,995). Please share with me your thoughts on my choices ( and prices, I certainly didn't do as well as Dawn !! ) I need to decide this by next week so please get back to me as soon as you can. ........ Randy --- Randy, I played a few Young Chang pianos about 5 years ago and I was not impressed. I do know that YC changed some things in the past few years to improve their pianos, but I have not played the newer ones. Nevertheless, I believe the students/faculty would prefer the Kawai. This is just my opinion. Perhaps a better idea would be for you to walk across the street and ask the faculty which one they would prefer? Later, John D. --- John, thanks for your response. The Young Chang is the new Pramberger Series which the dealer admitted is a significant improvement over their previous models. Your suggestion to walk across the street and make an inquery is a good one. Unfortunately, this being summer everyone inlcuding the Instrument Director is on vacation. I'm leaning to the Kawai myself as I know that they do have some at the school, but I wanted to hear from people out in the 'real world'. Thanks again.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Charlie To: Randy Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 21:40:17 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I had to look up the definition of 'winter garden.' My dictionary says it is an outdoor garden maintained during the winter with hardy plants or a conservatory devoted to the cultivation of winter-blooming plants. Either one sounds like an environment that will be desctructive to a piano. That is, cold and damp, perhaps with wide temperature variations. If this describes the environment, buy the cheapest used piano you can with looks that you like. Your investment in a musical instrument will be down the drain. If you care about musical performance, a digital electronic piano will certainly survive this envirnoment better. Several manufacturers have them with a grand piano-like case.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Randy To: Charlie Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 08:54:40 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecapotgroup.com Message: I had to look up the definition of 'winter garden.' My dictionary says it is an outdoor garden maintained during the winter with hardy plants or a conservatory devoted to the cultivation of winter-blooming plants. Either one sounds like an environment that will be desctructive to a piano. That is, cold and damp, perhaps with wide temperature variations. If this describes the environment, buy the cheapest used piano you can with looks that you like. Your investment in a musical instrument will be down the drain. If you care about musical performance, a digital electronic piano will certainly survive this envirnoment better. Several manufacturers have them with a grand piano-like case. --- Charlie, Sorry for the confusion. We probably take some terms for granted here in Western NY. Locally a wintergarden synonminous with conservatorey except the roof is not glass and the envonment is maintained for human comfort. Actually what he have is a three story atruim akin to a hotel lobby. The piano will be safe and dry. A digital piano is out of the question. I have too many skilled pianist around whose ego's as well as the buildings integrety need to remain intact. If you have any further input it would be welcome.

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Paul Herman To: Randy Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 22:24:38 (EDT) Email Address: herman.1@osu.edu Message: Hi Randy, Let me put in a good word for Young Chang and PianoDisc. At this moment I am listening to a Young Chang G275 equipped with PianoDisc and it is good. If you include the TFT Recording (thin film technology) option your performers can copy their performances to floppy disks and reproduce them whenever appropriate. PianoDisc systems are seldom (never) installed by the piano manufacturer. The system is sold by Music Systems Research, 4111 North Freeway Boulevard, Sacramento, CA 95843, [www.pianodisc.com] and retrofitted by someone qualified. Whenever you have operational PianoDisc check with me and I'll share lots of music. It's great! Paul Herman

Subject: Re: Grand Pianos From: Randy To: Paul Herman Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 10:12:40 (EDT) Email Address: rp@thecabotgorup Message: Paul, Thanks for your help. If you have been following this, I did end up purchaseing the Kawai RX2with the Pianodisc system. I'll get back to your after it's delivered and up and running. (about 4 weeks ) Randy

Subject: Petrof Upright 'Lemon' From: bobb To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 22:31:08 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I am wondering, first of all whether there have been any reports of Petrof 'lemons' recently. I mean over and above the need for 'prepping', voicing and regulation, that is so often discussed in this column when the name Petrof comes up. (Before I sound 'anti-Petrof', I should say I bought the brand because it is the kind of sound I like, *and* that I have played truly stunning Petrof grands, and Petrof uprights that were probably as nice as one could expect.) The 50' that was recently delivered to me not only has a 'ring-through' that seems to be due to poor damper functioning, a hard edge to the sound (okay, the hammers can be softened), and a heavy action (regulation?) - these are the kind of things one expects. I am getting a really ugly 'crackling' sound - I can't tell if it is analogous to what a violin does when it has open seams, or whether it is something with the hammers and the strings, but the striking things are that the sound moves around all over the place, and that it usually doesn't appear until after 10 minutes into a playing session. All of a sudden today, I hit the b below tenor c in the context of a Bach chorale prelude and the note went out of kilter, as if the damper is not coming off the string all the way and/or the hammer is not hitting the string head-on. These things don't give you much confidence. Then, on top of it, I notice that the workmanship looks really sloppy in unexposed parts of the piano - what looks like dripping glue on the back of the soundboard; wood shavings under the instrument. Even the Renner hammers don't look so good to my untrained eye - in one place it looks like a piece of the cloth is already starting to separate. Is it possible that workmanship is deteriorating in expectation of privatization and the auctioning off of the separate factories? Could this be a 'lemon', or am I way overreacting to what I am seeing? Bobb

Subject: Re: Petrof Upright 'Lemon' From: David Burton To: bobb Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 01:26:04 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Let's put it this way; does the piano retailer or Petrof want to get a reputation as offering third rate junk to the American public? If they do then we already know one of the names; Petrof, the other is the name of the dealer. I feel certain that you can resolve this problem. It should be resolved. Please let us know how and what is done to resolve it.

Subject: Re: Petrof Upright 'Lemon' From: Patti To: bobb Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 13:55:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would think that a reputable dealer would cheerfully exchanged the piano for a different one if you're having so many problems with it. I bought a Kawai furniture-style upright a few months ago and when I was dusting it, noticed that one of the legs had been broken off and glued back together - didn't notice that in the store. The repair was very well done, but I felt I did not pay for a piano which had been broken and repaired. I called the store and they immediately said they would exchange it with no argument or debate.

Subject: Re: Petrof Upright 'Lemon' From: John D. To: bobb Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 12:02:29 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bobb, I don't think you are overreacting to what you are seeing - you paid good money for this piano and deserve to have a decent piano. You certainly bought a good piano, not a piece of junk. Even entry level pianos don't have some of the problems you have mentioned. I agree with Mat and Rob and will also re-emphasize that your set of questions are extremely well stated. Don't allow the dealer to make you feel like you are being too picky. Be persistent. And, if worse comes to worse, fax him all the responses you've gotten on this forum to let him know there are several people who agree with you and hundreds more who are reading about your problems. But first see what the technician has to say. Keep us informed. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Petrof Upright 'Lemon' From: Rob S. To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:24:30 (EDT) Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com Message: Bobb, I don't have any answers for you, but yours was an extremely well stated group of questions. If I were you I'd print it out and fax it to your dealer and see what answers he comes up with. I wish you the best, and hope your Petrof starts 'singing' for you soon. Best _ Rob S.

Subject: Re: Petrof Upright 'Lemon' From: Mat D. To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 23:12:10 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Bobb, I posted a response to your other post before reading this post. It sounds like you got a different piano than the one you may have heard in the showroom--maybe you ordered it. It is possible that this piano was damaged after manufacture as in-shipping or moving to your location. It does appear that there are many different problems and my first stop would be the owner of the piano dealer--he is responsible for the product he sells. Tell him how you made your decision based upon the upright you played (and obviously liked very much) and that the piano delivered is not at all of the same caliber. Wish I could help-BE FIRM--it's your money! Best of luck, Mat D --- --- -let us know of any developements.

Subject: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: John D. To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:35:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have two notes on my piano that are a little 'off' that I need some advice on: The A in the middle octave is louder than the rest of the surrounding notes. It's definitely not brighter, just louder. I mentioned this to the tech and he brushed it off as a non-problem although he did acknowledge the note was louder. The second problem is in the B-flat in the octave below middle C. This note makes a kind of 'clunky' sound. Not a good word for it, but the best way I can describe it is that it sounds like the note is very strong on the attack but the volume of the sustain is much lower (which probably emphasises the attack phase). This problem cannot be easily heard by simply playing a chromatic scale involving the surrounding notes, but it is very evident to me when I play any song that involves that note. The tech said he could not hear what I was talking about. Anyone have any ideas what is causing these problems and how to fix them? I don't know if it's voicing or regulating or if I'm just being too picky... Thanks, John D.

Subject: Re: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: David Burton To: John D. Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 01:17:18 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I read all the posts so far before responding and all I can say is WOW, if I had a tech like either of these, who acted as though they deigned to work on my piano or otherwise had any sort of contempt for me, they'd be history. I could care less about reputation when I hear what I want fixed. Sometimes it isn't even worthwhile trying to cozy up to these people with whatever knowledge you can muster. They will never respect you. I know that whenever any of my instruments has had any problems like these I got someone to fix them. I hope you're not way out in the boonies. That's a problem in that it limits piano tech access. I sure hope you find a tech who hasn't sacrificed his reason or his hearing to his ego. When you find the tech who can fix these problems keep them no matter what their reputation or lack of it.

Subject: Re: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: Cork To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 10:07:23 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: I have two notes on my piano that are a little 'off' that I need some advice on: The A in the middle octave is louder than the rest of the surrounding notes. It's definitely not brighter, just louder. I mentioned this to the tech and he brushed it off as a non-problem although he did acknowledge the note was louder. The second problem is in the B-flat in the octave below middle C. This note makes a kind of 'clunky' sound. Not a good word for it, but the best way I can describe it is that it sounds like the note is very strong on the attack but the volume of the sustain is much lower (which probably emphasises the attack phase). This problem cannot be easily heard by simply playing a chromatic scale involving the surrounding notes, but it is very evident to me when I play any song that involves that note. The tech said he could not hear what I was talking about. Anyone have any ideas what is causing these problems and how to fix them? I don't know if it's voicing or regulating or if I'm just being too picky... Thanks, John D. --- John, My first advice would be to try another tech. Notes that don't blend in with their surrounding notes are a royal pain, and if you find them an issue then your tech should try to correct them. I suspect the loud A hammer has simply been juiced too much (or conversely, not been loosened enough). That shouldn't be too tough to correct. The lower note could be any number of things, but you certainly won't get it fixed by a tech that cannot hear the problem. Though it helps to have an understanding of the instrument, it isn't your job to diagnose the problem and suggest the cure . . . (grin) Cork

Subject: Re: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: John D. To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 18:29:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cork, Thanks for your reply. But here's the problem... the tech is the best around. He works on concert pianist's pianos and has an outstanding reputation. Consequently, he has a bit of an 'attitude'. I believe the attitude is further fueled by the fact that he thinks the piano is too good for an amature such as myself. I figure if I can arm myself with some technical knowledge, he's more likely to take me seriously. So would you mind listing a few things that could be causing the problem with the lower note? Thanks again, John D.

Subject: Re: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: Cork To: John D. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 12, 1999 at 18:00:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, You are a better man than I! I have little tolerance for people with that sort of ego. I'd rather deal with #2 than put up with a prima donna #1. Some thoughts on the issue with your b-flat. First, given the size of your instrument I'll assume that it is not a transition note; that is, it is not the first bichord or last trichord. Is it by a brace in the plate? Aside from the probable voicing issue, think of regulation issues that could attenuate the volume of the sustain. Is let-off occuring far enough away from the string? Is the hammer being caught too close to the string? Is the damper rising high enough above the strings? Is the hammer hitting all three strings? Is it hitting them flat and simultaneously? Are the three strings of the trichord all tuned properly? Hope that helps a bit. Cork

Subject: Re: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: John D. To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 13:29:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cork & Charlie, Thanks for your responses. Unfortunately, I've already had dealings with the 'second best' tech, and he beats out the 'first best' tech in attitude by a long shot. All the other techs I know of are just basically piano tuners... Cork, the b-flat is five notes up from the brace. It is a trichord note as all the ones above it and the 5 below it are. The hammer appears to let-off the string just like the surrounding notes, the hammer is hitting all three strings and hitting them evenly. I checked this by holding the hammer against the strings and plucking the three strings. Dampers appear to function correctly too. Nevertheless, thanks for the info. This will help me the next time I deal with him. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Two voicing or regulating questions: From: Charlie To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 21:17:01 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Cork, Thanks for your reply. But here's the problem... the tech is the best around. He works on concert pianist's pianos and has an outstanding reputation. Consequently, he has a bit of an 'attitude'. I believe the attitude is further fueled by the fact that he thinks the piano is too good for an amature such as myself. I figure if I can arm myself with some technical knowledge, he's more likely to take me seriously. So would you mind listing a few things that could be causing the problem with the lower note? Thanks again, John D. --- John, Personally I don't like dealing with reputations and attitudes. They often get in the way of good results. Maybe you should consider the second best technician in your area. Best of luck, Charlie

Subject: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: Ngu To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 10, 1999 at 21:50:14 (EDT) Email Address: ngu@yahoo.com Message: I am in the market for the baby grand piano. What are the best pianos I can afford with $15,000 budget? Thanks Ngu

Subject: Re: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: Cork To: Ngu Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:23:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am in the market for the baby grand piano. What are the best pianos I can afford with $15,000 budget? Thanks Ngu --- Suggest you purchase a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' as your first step. For that price you may find such brands as Petrof, Kawai, Yamaha, Boston, and Baldwin in their smaller instruments. Also the Koreans, Samick and Young Chang, either with their names or with others such as Weber and Knabe. Determining the 'best' piano for that price will be very dependent on what you like in terms of tone and touch, and just how small or large a piano you want. As you will learn upon reading Fine's book, you really do not want a 'baby' grand, you want a medium grand. Good Luck. Cork

Subject: Re: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: bobb To: ngu Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:30:26 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I am in the market for the baby grand piano. What are the best pianos I can afford with $15,000 budget? Thanks Ngu --- Suggest you purchase a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' as your first step. For that price you may find such brands as Petrof, Kawai, Yamaha, Boston, and Baldwin in their smaller instruments. Also the Koreans, Samick and Young Chang, either with their names or with others such as Weber and Knabe. Determining the 'best' piano for that price will be very dependent on what you like in terms of tone and touch, and just how small or large a piano you want. As you will learn upon reading Fine's book, you really do not want a 'baby' grand, you want a medium grand. Good Luck. Cork --- Fine says that the Petrof 5'3' sounds unusually good for such a small instrument. I found that I liked it a lot. What do you think, Cork? Is this a counterexample to the rule against baby grands? You can also get a Petrof 5'8' for under 15k.

Subject: Re: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: Cork To: bobb Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:49:52 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: I am in the market for the baby grand piano. What are the best pianos I can afford with $15,000 budget? Thanks Ngu --- Suggest you purchase a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' as your first step. For that price you may find such brands as Petrof, Kawai, Yamaha, Boston, and Baldwin in their smaller instruments. Also the Koreans, Samick and Young Chang, either with their names or with others such as Weber and Knabe. Determining the 'best' piano for that price will be very dependent on what you like in terms of tone and touch, and just how small or large a piano you want. As you will learn upon reading Fine's book, you really do not want a 'baby' grand, you want a medium grand. Good Luck. Cork --- Fine says that the Petrof 5'3' sounds unusually good for such a small instrument. I found that I liked it a lot. What do you think, Cork? Is this a counterexample to the rule against baby grands? You can also get a Petrof 5'8' for under 15k. --- I've always been a fan of the little Petrof Model V; it's the only small grand in current production that I could feel good about a friend buying. But as you note, the difference in price between a Model V (5'3') and a Model IV (5'8') is very small that I could only justify the V to someone with drastic space limitations. I think one major reason the V sounds so good for such a little instrument is that it's made as well as a IV; unfortunately, that drives the price up to practically that of the IV. And in the end, those five inches do make a real difference, at least to my ear.

Subject: Re: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: David Burton To: Cork Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 02:28:17 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Yes, I'll go with Cork on this too. If you like the Petrof, as I do also, and if you have the space and the money, go for the Model IV, 5'8'.

Subject: Re: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: Ngu To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 00:38:26 (EDT) Email Address: ngu_pham@yahoo.com Message: Thank you all for your advices. My wife and I decided on 5'8 Petrof V. The tone is more complex and sweet. We paid $14,500 for this toy. I hope my daughter (4 yrs old) will be a great piano player, so my return on this investment will be worthwhile. Thanks again. Ngu

Subject: Re: best baby grand pianos under $15,000? From: David Burton To: Ngu Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 00:58:57 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Thank you all for your advices. My wife and I decided on 5'8 Petrof V. The tone is more complex and sweet. We paid $14,500 for this toy. I hope my daughter (4 yrs old) will be a great piano player, so my return on this investment will be worthwhile. Thanks again. Ngu --- Congratulations! Now make sure this new toy of yours gets the loving care it deserves from a piano technician that knows and loves the Petrof sound. Now that you own a great piano, make sure it develops beautifully. Your daughter and maybe you yourself will feel more attracted to play it if it stays in tune and proper regulation.

Subject: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: Terry To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 14, 1999 at 01:39:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a dilemma - to purchase a 1969 Baldwin L or 1920's Knabe. Both are 6'3' and I like both pianos for different reasons. Any thoughts that might sway me one way or the other? Any help would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: David Burton To: Terry Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 00:55:44 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I went back and read all these posts. I used to own a Baldwin L made around 1949. It was an excellent piano with perhaps a little too much 'punch' as Kenvin might say. But I have also played Knabe's from the 1920's that were excellent, better than my Baldwin in many respects. The issues I have are these; is the Knabe rebuilt or restored? I'll ignore for the moment Keven's comments on the quality and workmanship of Knabes as his comments probably do reflect more on the Knabes from the Great Depression through about the 1960's, maybe even later as they were a trade name of Aeolian for a long time and they used cheap actions, etc. During that period no Knabe was the equal of any Baldwin. But those are not the classic Knabe's from before 1930. Those are an entirely different class of piano. The new Knabe's are Asian pianos and reflect the Asian sound. So the other questions involve voicing. If I had a Baldwin L today I'd probably voice it down, in fact I know I would. If I had a rebuilt Knabe the same size as the Baldwin, competently rebuilt, I'd consider that I had the better piano. What you need to decide is the relative wear and tear that each instrument has experienced as well as your musical preferences. If you play a piano hard, the Baldwin will stand up better. But if you are going to develop any subtle nuances in your playing the Knabe is your best bet. But be sure the Knabe is in good condition. If not then get a price break to take it. It will certainly be worth rebuilding anyway whenevr that becomes necessary.

Subject: Re: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: Kevin Gardner To: Terry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:45:10 (EDT) Email Address: kwgardner@hotmail.com Message: I personally recommend the Baldwin L. The Baldwin Grand pianos has more 'punch' than any other pianos on the market. And I would not recommend the Knabe pianos because of such poor craftsman- ship in their pianos.

Subject: Re: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: Mat D. To: Kevin Gardner Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 14:25:50 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Kevin, You are speaking of current Knabe pianos, of course. I am not sure of the exact dates, but Knabe has made some wonderful pianos in years past --- it seems that I remember the 1920's as of that era. Also, when you say 'punch', that is very subjective. I personally perfer the tone of a fine Steinway or M&H when voiced as Del Fandrich puts it- 'like a p/f' meaning full dynamic range from whisper mellow 'pp' to barking 'ff' . Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: Kevin Gardner To: Terry Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 11:44:36 (EDT) Email Address: kwgardner@hotmail.com Message: I personally recommend the Baldwin L. The Baldwin Grand pianos has more 'punch' than any other pianos on the market. And I would not recommend the Knabe pianos because of such poor craftsman- ship in their pianos.

Subject: Re: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: Mark Mandell To: Kevin Gardner Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 21:42:35 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: This very 'punch' that Kevin addresses which characterizes the Baldwin tone constitutes its drawback; so the player cannot really obtain the dynamic range that one finds in a Steinway or M&H. In my experience, the really desirable Baldwins have been the SD10 Concert Grand models because they seem to possess this dynamic quality moreso than the shorter models.

Subject: Re: Baldwin L vs. Knabe From: Mat D. To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:01:26 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Mark, You describe much more strightforwardly what I alluded to concerning the 'punch' in Baldwin pianos. I too believe this to be a big negative (unless the piano is to be used stricly for R&R). It is impossible to control the dynamics ona piano like this. If you have access to an excellent technician, you might stand a chance with the 7' model--I have played a couple that were pretty good, but I have never played a small Baldwin that I really cared for. Compare this to a Mason & Hamlin 5'8' (Model A) which is gorgeous! Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Schimmel Grands From: Geprge To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 06:10:18 (EDT) Email Address: moravek@peconic.net Message: I am considering buying a new Schimmel 6'!0' grand. Would like some feedback from someone that is familiar with them.

Subject: Re: Schimmel Grands From: Mat D. To: Geprge Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 10:10:39 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Geprge, I owned a Schimmel grand for 20 years (5'1' 1952-I bought used in 1978) and was very happy with it--it was the best 5'1' piano that I had ever played and I know it will continue to serve someone else for quite some time. I recently upgraded to a 7' M&H but my first stop was Schimmel because of my experience. After looking for a while, I realized that I was looking for a different type of tone than the traditional 'German' sound of a Schimmel and opted for the M&H. This is purely subjective so if you are comfortable with the this 'German' style of piano sound, I know that you can't go wrong here. As Cork has stated, the Schimmel is a mass produced instrument of very high quality equivalent to that of a good Yamaha or Kawai. I do find that I tend to like the older Schimmels better than the new ones --- this might be a matter of voicing as the market seems to demand these very 'bright' pianos these days; personally I don't care for this 'bright' tonality because it is very difficult to control the instrument and play quietly (p or pp)--keep that in mind when you play different instruments and ask yourself: 'can I play a beautiful pianissimo throughout the whole piece of music if neccesary. If the answer is no, keep looking! Good luck--keep us up to date. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Schimmel Grands From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Jul 19, 1999 at 00:37:10 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Matt D. said, 'personally I don't care for this 'bright' tonality because it is very difficult to control the instrument and play quietly (p or pp)--keep that in mind when you play different instruments and ask yourself: 'can I play a beautiful pianissimo throughout the whole piece of music if necessary. If the answer is no, keep looking!' Sometimes it's the quieter and gentler things having to do with pianos that matter most. I grew up with a bright piano, old though it was, with a too light touch. Not only did my parents complain about how loud I was playing, but for many years I was unable to play at a comfortable pianissimo. Whenever I see people gravitating toward the light touch and the bright sounds I wonder if they really know what they might be giving up? One time I went to see a guy who had a fairly new large Yamaha grand piano. He'd done something pretty remarkable, he'd actually voiced down the piano so that it no longer had such a bright 'glassy' sound and wow, what a difference! It sounded almost like a Steinway. I really appreciated Matt's comment. I second it. But I have a question for the technicians out there; is it easier to brighten up a piano than to voice it down and how is this done?

Subject: Re: Schimmel Grands From: Cork To: Geprge Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 08:55:49 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: I am considering buying a new Schimmel 6'!0' grand. Would like some feedback from someone that is familiar with them. --- A good friend of mine has had a 6'10' Schimmel for about 5 years. It's a very nice piano with an wonderfully light touch, much lighter than my Renner action. The overall construction quality is excellent, equivalent to other mass-production pianos like the Yamaha C, the Boston, or the Kawai RX. Putting aside tone for a moment, I look at Schimmels as a high-end Yamaha/Kawai made with better materials. Scale design is classic German with an emphasis on the fundamental that produces a very pure tone without the harshness and rapid decay of the Yamaha, and without the complexity and power of the North American instruments. Hope that helps. Cork

Subject: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Rob W. To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 19:11:18 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a very well respected and knowledgable technician tell me recently that he would not purchase a new M&H because once the company was sold to the Birgett (sp?) brothers, the pianos being produced were no longer true M&Hs. Any thoughts or comments?

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: David Burton To: Rob W. Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 16:45:42 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I'm going to go along with the rest who have noting but praise for the new Mason & Hamlins. Frankly if I had the money and the space I'd sign up for a new BB myself. M&H may not as yet be making a lot of money on their pianos but they have done something right at least by limiting their models and concentrating on quality. In fact I have heard that all of their pianos are pre-sold. The demand is there so the price is going to be up. Sorry Steinway but your years of unchallenged snobbery, especially at your 'get out of here if I don't see your big bucks' Steinway Hall in New York, may be up for a challenge. The new Mason & Hamlin is great. It will do them proud to announce this on future CD's that are released.

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 20:34:01 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, I own a new M&H BB and have used it on a couple of recording projects. I am a music producer & bought my piano for my own personal use in my living room but after one CD I recorded for a friend of mine (Bernard Katz) I have been getting requests to record my piano. My next CD project features the music of Granados, scored for Cello & Pino by Bernard Katz. The Cellist will be Marcie Chanteaux --- first Cellist from the Detroit Symphony Orchestra; and all in my livving room--imagine!! I have been told by more than one pianist (including my piano technician) that my M&H BB is one of the finest instruments they have ever played; my friend Bernie Katz was one who told me so & he owns a 1929 M&H 9' concert grand. I'll let you know when this recording project is done--hopefully this fall. BTW, I always credit M&H on the CD credits & include the serial #90637 of my piano. Thanks for listening. Mat D.

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Mat D. To: Rob W. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:13:58 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Rob, This is the first negative I have ever heard about the new M&H. I own a M&H BB (7') #90637 built in 1998 and believe me, it is world class. I played every 7' piano in the city and it was the finest (IMHO) including the (3) Steinway B's I played. My technician just got through voicing this week and he told me that my piano is one of the best he has ever worked with. He regularly voices & tunes Bosendoefers, Steinways etc. and knows his stuff. He has visited the Burgett Bros. in Boston at the M&H factory and says they are to be respected because they are doing things right--albeit probably not making a whole lot of money on their pianos yet. I also have a friend who is 74 years old and one of the finest classical pianists I know who helped me pick my piano --- he says mine is the finest he has ever played. I make my living as a music producer and initially I bought my piano for my personal use in my living room but after I recorded a CD with my Classical pianist friend I started getting more calls to record my instrument. Next month I will be recording Piano/Cello sonatas with the first cellist from the Detroit symphony and my Classical pianist friend in my living room. My suggestion would be to go out and play a couple of new Mason & Hamlins and see if you don't agree. Best Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Cork To: Rob W. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 22:51:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had a very well respected and knowledgable technician tell me recently that he would not purchase a new M&H because once the company was sold to the Birgett (sp?) brothers, the pianos being produced were no longer true M&Hs. Any thoughts or comments? --- I'll throw my lot in with Mr. Mandell on this one. These are the first negative comments I've seen on the new M&H instruments, and are certainly not in tune (excuse the pun) with the comments shared by other techs on the Piano Tech list. In my opinion, the new M&H instruments are among the finest pianos being made in the world today, easily comparable to the latest from the NY S&S factory. The construction of the rim is massive, the materials are first rate, and the attention to detail is superb. As much as I love the Steinway B, I'd take a new M&H BB in an instant. Frankly, I think you might be seeing the reaction of a dyed-in-the-wool S&S fan reacting to the first real domestic competition S&S has had in 60 years. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Mark Mandell To: Rob W. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 21:37:00 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: I had a very well respected and knowledgable technician tell me recently that he would not purchase a new M&H because once the company was sold to the Birgett (sp?) brothers, the pianos being produced were no longer true M&Hs. Any thoughts or comments? --- I too am a technician but would respectfully disagree rather stongly with the comment made by your tech. The more recent M&H's are every bit as fine as those from the 'vintage' period, that being those from the 20's and 30's. The Burgetts have maintained the fine tradition so they're made with the same scale and conscientious approach to fine craftsmanship. They are, however, rather pricey but personally I'd take 'em over the new Steinways whose tone I was anything but impressed by.

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Raymond G. To: Rob W. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 19:47:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have heard the same comments from a number of technicians that I respect in the greater NYC area. Based on these comments, I recently opted for theSteinway B. Yes, I paid a little more, but at least I have the peace of mind knowing that I got a truly top-of-the-line product. Rob, if you are interested in a quality piano, I suggest you look at a Steinway.

Subject: Re: True Mason & Hamlin? From: Raymond G. To: Rob W. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 19:39:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: old mason and hamlin grand From: bobb To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 19:58:05 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Does anybody know anything in particular about a Mason and Hamlin 6' 3'' Grand from 1931? That is a year before they went bankrupt, I think, and was still part of the absolute heyday of the compary. Is that right? I know nothing of this particular model. In terms of condition, this one is reconditioned, not rebuilt - I am still trying to find out what has and has not been done to it. The bass is great, as expected, and the middle has a very beautiful mellow tone that I love - it might be just a little on the soft side, but the room is sort of sound proof so I find it hard to tell a lot. The treble is a little short on sustain, although hardly bad - the dealer himself called the piano 'a little weak in the treble' and said he felt that was the only thing wrong with the piano now. But he has already gone on record as saying that pianos wear out (he called my 1918 steinway k upright 'simply too old' to be really good), so is not pushing this one that hard. The black satin finish is in good rather than great shape but is hardly bad. Regulation strikes me as very good, voicing good (possibly more could yet be done). Keys seemed a little wobbly from side to side- not yet offensive -does this mean needs rebushing? How much would that cost? The piano had a single owner, a wealthy woman who is now in her 80's and has other top of the line brands too. The dealer will give it to me for 9.6k, taking the Petrof 126 that I dislike back towards the price of the grand. Of course my tech is coming to look at it with me, but prima facie does this sound good? I am hopeful.

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: Rosemary To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 06:41:56 (EDT) Email Address: cparker5@ix.netcom.com Message: Does anybody know anything in particular about a Mason and Hamlin 6' 3'' Grand from 1931? That is a year before they went bankrupt, I think, and was still part of the absolute heyday of the compary. Is that right? I know nothing of this particular model. In terms of condition, this one is reconditioned, not rebuilt - I am still trying to find out what has and has not been done to it. The bass is great, as expected, and the middle has a very beautiful mellow tone that I love - it might be just a little on the soft side, but the room is sort of sound proof so I find it hard to tell a lot. The treble is a little short on sustain, although hardly bad - the dealer himself called the piano 'a little weak in the treble' and said he felt that was the only thing wrong with the piano now. But he has already gone on record as saying that pianos wear out (he called my 1918 steinway k upright 'simply too old' to be really good), so is not pushing this one that hard. The black satin finish is in good rather than great shape but is hardly bad. Regulation strikes me as very good, voicing good (possibly more could yet be done). Keys seemed a little wobbly from side to side- not yet offensive -does this mean needs rebushing? How much would that cost? The piano had a single owner, a wealthy woman who is now in her 80's and has other top of the line brands too. The dealer will give it to me for 9.6k, taking the Petrof 126 that I dislike back towards the price of the grand. Of course my tech is coming to look at it with me, but prima facie does this sound good? I am hopeful. --- I know nothing of the details, but if the piano sounds good now and your tech is as good as mine, it may be an attractive option. And if you want to get that old worn out Steinway out of your way, bring it on over! I know a couple of poor students who'd love it over here in West Michigan :-). I'll scoot my glorious old Baldwin grand (it was on its way to the dump, too) over to make room. Best of luck. I hope you'll find the piano of your dreams! Maybe you already have! Rosemary

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: Mat D. To: bobb Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 23:47:51 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: bobb, If you like the piano, it sounds pretty fair to me. My 1952 Schimmel 5'1' sold for over $10,000. This Mason & Hamlin sounds like it has a lot of potential. You say the voicing is 'good' but you might want to double check that with your technician--considering the treble and slightly dark sound you described; it sounds like maybe it could use a little touch-up voicing but that should be no big deal. Today I had my first voicing session on my Mason & Hamlin 7' after having the hammers 'juiced' with a water/alcohol solution to soften them. When my technician re-installed my hammers after the initial 'juicing', it sounded like there was a blamket over the piano (this is what he wanted so that he can now build tone from there) and today he started voicing and it was amazing how the piano came to life in just one session --- he has scheduled 2-3 more voicing dates and I am very excited about what I hear happening in my piano. I suspect that you can do the same if you have a FIRST RATE TECHNICIAN. You must seek out the best technician in your area--be sure to research this because it will pay off many-fold. From what you've said, I would go for it and plan on having your technician do any touch-ups that need to be done. Mason & Hamlins are fabulous pianos and you won't be sorry; in fact, I almost bought a Petrof 7'9' and boy am I glad I came to my senses because my Mason & Hamlin is far superior in every way--I think you will agree. Let us know of your decision, but don't hesitate too long--that M&H may be gone! Best Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 15:08:27 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 'I am very excited about what I hear happening in my piano. I suspect that you can do the same if you have a FIRST RATE TECHNICIAN. You must seek out the best technician in your area--be sure to research this because it will pay off many-fold.' I can second this one, maybe even third it! A good piano technician should be paid and deservedly for doing some things which are really incredible with a piano. They can take a 'so so' piano and make it into something wonderful. Of course there are constraints. The most important ones all involve soundboard condition, especially lack of crown. Looking at a piano from this standpoint will inform one about its real value. The soundboard can be replaced, but it's sort of like, worse than, doing a transmission job on a car. That soundboard is the basis for the piano's sound, there really isn't any other way to get it out except by tearing the piano apart, removing all the strings first then removing the action, then removing the plate. NEVER, EVER, DO THIS AT HOME!! THERE WAS A STORY ABOUT SOMEONE WHO UNSCREWED THE PLATE ON HIS GRAND PIANO BEFORE REMOVING THE STRINGS. HE WAS KILLED INSTANTLY BY THE SEVERAL TONS OF FORCE THAT WERE RELEASED WHEN THE PLATE CAME LOOSE AND SMASHED HIM. That said, someone else said that the only time it makes sense for a soundboard to be replaced is when the piano is so decrepit that it needs to be completely rebuilt. This is precisely the economic point. To do a real rebuild can amount to $10,000. If you can get an old grand 5'8' or better for the price of hauling it away and have it completely rebuilt, you can have an instrument for $10,000 that may well be the equal of anything currently selling for $20,000 or more. And it doesn't have to be a Steinway either. Someday, hopefully soon, the Steinway mystique can and will be broken.

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: bobb To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 18:32:00 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Dave, First my apologies for the accidental sending of a blank message. In the section entitled 'Crown and Treble on Old Mason and Hamlin', a lot of the issues which you so articulately discuss above were touched on - in particular, that replacing a soundboard involves ripping up the whole piano, and that the ideal candidates are thus pianos that are in need of a full rebuild to begin with. The Mason and Hamlin that I am still trying to decide on has been partially rebuilt, but unfortunately the soundboard was not replaced. I'm not sure how much crown it has, but it certainly seems to be less than ideal. The octave above treble c sounds weak in the showroom (although I don't want to exaggerate - it is not *bad*). There is, however, a lot of soundproofing there, while my living room has hardwood floors. The question is, would I be spending my money badly to buy this now for 9k, play it for awhile, and later either fully rebuild or sell? Lots of people have kindly given me their expert opinions. I would be interested in yours too. Bobb-

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: bobb To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 18:16:05 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: 'I am very excited about what I hear happening in my piano. I suspect that you can do the same if you have a FIRST RATE TECHNICIAN. You must seek out the best technician in your area--be sure to research this because it will pay off many-fold.' I can second this one, maybe even third it! A good piano technician should be paid and deservedly for doing some things which are really incredible with a piano. They can take a 'so so' piano and make it into something wonderful. Of course there are constraints. The most important ones all involve soundboard condition, especially lack of crown. Looking at a piano from this standpoint will inform one about its real value. The soundboard can be replaced, but it's sort of like, worse than, doing a transmission job on a car. That soundboard is the basis for the piano's sound, there really isn't any other way to get it out except by tearing the piano apart, removing all the strings first then removing the action, then removing the plate. NEVER, EVER, DO THIS AT HOME!! THERE WAS A STORY ABOUT SOMEONE WHO UNSCREWED THE PLATE ON HIS GRAND PIANO BEFORE REMOVING THE STRINGS. HE WAS KILLED INSTANTLY BY THE SEVERAL TONS OF FORCE THAT WERE RELEASED WHEN THE PLATE CAME LOOSE AND SMASHED HIM. That said, someone else said that the only time it makes sense for a soundboard to be replaced is when the piano is so decrepit that it needs to be completely rebuilt. This is precisely the economic point. To do a real rebuild can amount to $10,000. If you can get an old grand 5'8' or better for the price of hauling it away and have it completely rebuilt, you can have an instrument for $10,000 that may well be the equal of anything currently selling for $20,000 or more. And it doesn't have to be a Steinway either. Someday, hopefully soon, the Steinway mystique can and will be broken. ---

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: bobb To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:03:58 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: bobb, If you like the piano, it sounds pretty fair to me. My 1952 Schimmel 5'1' sold for over $10,000. This Mason & Hamlin sounds like it has a lot of potential. You say the voicing is 'good' but you might want to double check that with your technician--considering the treble and slightly dark sound you described; it sounds like maybe it could use a little touch-up voicing but that should be no big deal. Today I had my first voicing session on my Mason & Hamlin 7' after having the hammers 'juiced' with a water/alcohol solution to soften them. When my technician re-installed my hammers after the initial 'juicing', it sounded like there was a blamket over the piano (this is what he wanted so that he can now build tone from there) and today he started voicing and it was amazing how the piano came to life in just one session --- he has scheduled 2-3 more voicing dates and I am very excited about what I hear happening in my piano. I suspect that you can do the same if you have a FIRST RATE TECHNICIAN. You must seek out the best technician in your area--be sure to research this because it will pay off many-fold. From what you've said, I would go for it and plan on having your technician do any touch-ups that need to be done. Mason & Hamlins are fabulous pianos and you won't be sorry; in fact, I almost bought a Petrof 7'9' and boy am I glad I came to my senses because my Mason & Hamlin is far superior in every way--I think you will agree. Let us know of your decision, but don't hesitate too long--that M&H may be gone! Best Regards, Mat D. --- Mat D. Given your absolutely first rate knowledge (and enthusiasm!) about pianos, and especially M&H pianos, let me tell you where things are right now - I would love to have your opinion again, along with that of others. I brought my registered tech, who I am sure *is* absolutely first rate, along. He is a wizard at voicing (I have seen and heard it). Here is his report. No good reason *not* to buy the piano if I like it (no serious defects). But don't expect that he can produce radical improvements in the sound either (as I suspected, the voicing was already close to optimal). A really good tuning and some tweaking will help, but not in revolutionary fashion. He did make some incremental improvements by pricking hammers on the spot, but my big complaint, mediocre sustain in the octave on either side of treble c, could be addressed only a bit. He suspected that a loss of crown in the soundboard in that area (something that he did see visually) might be responsible. I asked about a new soundboard and other further rebuilding, and he explained that it wouldn't make sense for the following reason (one that, as a professional economist) seems right to me. The piano has been partially rebuilt, and the price reflects that. To go for a soundboard, etc. means tearing up the work which has already been done (properly). Indeed, the best candidates for full rebuilds would be in very poor shape and very low in price (in their current condition) - little, if any, value would then be lost in reversing stopgap repairs. So this is probably a 'what you see is what you get' piano - neither better nor worse than the way it plays now. One other question I had: My living room is very 'live', while the showroom had carpeting and soundproofed ceilings. Indeed when I first played Bach on the violin (my main instrument) in my new living room, I was shocked at the cathedral sound. I'm wondering whether these acoustics might actually help to offset the somewhat disappointing sustain in that treble octave of the M&H. Likewise, I am concerned that pianos that sound just right in his dead place might actually overwhelm my living room with echoes. Maybe I'm just dreaming on this acoustical point, but I really want to convince myself to buy that M&H. I might mention that, while that octave is lackluster, nothing on this piano offends, unlike many of the others I have seen.

Subject: Re: old mason and hamlin grand From: Mat D, To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 01:22:54 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: bobb, Since you are buying a used instrument, it is very difficult to judge from my perspective the degree of 'lack of sustain'. It is likely that your live living room may enhance the sound of this piano. I had exactly the opposite situation when I bought my Mason & Hamlin --- the dealer had a small recital hall in which my M&H BB sat that sounded fabulous & my living room is somewhat small & dry acoustically; the piano sounds great in either acoustic space and I suspect the M&H you are looking at will sound great in your live room--. You are taking the right approach to this by being cautious. In the end though, you will have to make that final tough decision --- I think you're on the right track. Keep in touch! Mat D. You mentioned that the piano had been restored --- did that include new hammers? Hammers have everything to do with tonal quality and affects sustain as well --- -not to confuse the issue.

Subject: Schubert Uprights From: Lee To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 02:02:51 (EDT) Email Address: Summiteer@aol.com Message: Despite sounding naive on my part, does anyone know of any new upright pianos being manufactured in Germany and sold under the name 'Schubert.' A restoration dealer informs me that a good 'beginner's' piano he has in stock is the Schubert, the finest European upright piano for a reasonable price range. However, I cannot unearth any information about this manufacturer, expect that Lyon & Healy, a harp manufacturer, briefly distributed pianos under that same name years ago. Is there a German company producing new 'Schubert' labeled pianos? The dealer says he can offer a low price on the Schubert upright pianos in his inventory since the manufacturer has increased the piano's retail price -- causing this dealer to close-out his remaining Schuberts.

Subject: Re: Schubert Uprights From: David Burton To: Lee Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 17:59:00 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: OK, as a matter of fact, I own a new Schubert upright 52'. You wont believe it, but it was a gift from one of my computer clients. Nice gift eh? It was more than a nice gift. This is a supurb little piano! It is not in fact made in Germany but in Belaruss. It has a German action and French hammers. It has a rich darker 'Russian' sound. The designers also made some interesting changes in the typical design so that there is more soundboard exposed in the bass end. This makes the lowest notes in the bass sound more impressive than they have any right to in such a small piano. Your technician will notice this immediately because the pins for the bass strings are in a different atypical configuration than he or she may be used to. It needed some work here and there to bring it out. If you are as picky as I am, this will be something you would probably want to do anyway no matter what kind of piano you have. I do plan on replacing the pedals at a cost of $150 plus labor. The thing I like most about my piano is how easily it plays at pp, pianissimo. It has great dynamics. The action is a bit on the hard side so it makes you work, which as I said on another thread on here is what you want in preference to an easier light touch. What some people hope for in a light touch is to improve the repetition, playing the same note repeatedly as fast as possible, which actually has little to do with a light action as such. No upright piano can compare with a grand in this particular, but in all other respects this piano is my pick for one of the best buys in the world at the present moment.

Subject: Narrowing my choices From: Todd Crawford To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 21:41:25 (EDT) Email Address: prairiegirl@sprynet.com Message: Thanks to Mat D. and John D. for your time and responses! Today, I went into a local Steinway/Yamaha dealer, and I played a Yamaha C1 and a Steinway Model S. I have to pause, for fear of sounding wrong, but I rather preferred the sound of the Yamaha a bit more than the Steinway; with the Steinway, I had a more difficult time getting a clear tone out of the middle and upper registers; the Steinway's sound seemed "muffled"(?)...I suppose it could be simply the newness of the S. As I understand it, this lack of "clearness" could also be changed with voicing--something I seem to read quite a bit about on this forum, but don't know enough about! Can the "sound" or quality of "clearness", in general, that I like on the Yamaha or Petrof be had on the Steinway?? If I could have a Steinway voiced to the tone I like, there would be no contest!!! I loved the action of the smallest Steinway--much moreso than any of the other pianos I've played. I wonder if I should consider a Petrof Model II grand (which would be at about the same price as the used Steinway L I spoke of in my last message would be, as well as the C1 with a Disklavier or even approximately what I might be able to pay for a new Steinway S--26-28,000); I have played the 6'4' Model III Petrof, and I did like its tone, perhaps in retrospect better than the Steinway (though I anxiously await your insight about this ideal voicing/tone question!!) and I am also going to look at Schimmel pianos (Mat, was it you who mentioned Schimmel pianos?) And, if I might add another twist to all this, if I do decide to go with a Steinway, I wonder if it would be a better idea to stick with a new Steinway--albeit a model S as opposed to the larger 1923 L if they are about the same in price? Or, if the L checks out okay after rebuilding, do I just go with my gut feelings about which I prefer? I would be very grateful for any insight into these thoughts. By the way, this service is the greatest thing! You all are a great help in making what is one of the very biggest purchases made in any household more reassuring. Thanks again for your help in this--Todd

Subject: Re: Narrowing my choices From: Mat D. To: Todd Crawford Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 01:11:57 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Todd, Like I said, tone is a matter of preference; yours seems to be with the brighter, cleaner tone of the Yamaha. The Petrof you mentioned was the Petrof Model II (7'9') which would be in the $28,000 range. This piano would be my preference over the smaller Yamaha or Steinway. I almost bought one of these before deciding on my Mason & Hamlin BB (7'). If the Petrof model II is in your budget and space requirments, I would certainly consider this to be an excellent choice; be sure to have the understanding with your dealer that you expect the piano to be fully set up including voicing, regulation of action and tuning. As Cork said, this is very important with this particular brand, as they come from the factory quite raw (not a bad thing necessarily) and need a good technician to tailor it to your requirements. I do hope that the Model II is what you meant because that is a nice piano for that price range. Let us know how you are coming along. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Narrowing my choices From: Cork To: Todd Crawford Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 22:43:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to Matt D. and John D. for your time and responses! Today, I went into a local Steinway/Yamaha dealer, and I played a Yamaha C1 and a Steinway Model S. I have to pause, for fear of sounding wrong, but I rather preferred the sound of the Yamaha a bit more than the Steinway; with the Steinway, I had a more difficult time getting a clear tone out of the middle and upper registers...I suppose it could be simply the newness of the S. I am considering another make altogether as well as the Yamaha, which I feel I prefer to the Steinway--if less in feel, more in tone (am I crazy?! Or is it 'ok.' to prefer the tone of the Japanese piano??) I am considering a Petrof Model II grand (which would be at about the same price as the used Steinway would have been as well as the C1 with a Disklavier added--26-28,000) for which there is a local dealer ready to help me; I have played the 6'4' Model III Petrof, and I did like its tone, perhaps in retrospect better than the Steinway as well (I hope no one takes offense) and I am also going to look at Schimmel pianos (Matt, was it you who mentioned Schimmel pianos?) If anyone has a feel for these three brands/comparisons I would be very grateful!! By the way, this service is the greatest thing! You all are a great help in making what is one of the very biggest purchases made in any household more reassuring. Thanks again for your help in this--Todd --- Todd, Don't apologize for preferring the sound of one piano over another. The sound of a Steinway is not for everyone's tastes; many prefer the brighter, less complex tone of the Yamaha. The Petrof sound, though substantially different than that of the Yamaha, is also much less complex than Steinway's. I suspect you are considering the Petrof Model V, which is about 5'3', rather than the 7'9' Model II, given that the other instruments you mention are fairly small. I think the Petrof V is a fine little instrument with solid construction and better tone than one normally finds in such a small grand. Do keep in mind the initial setup requirements of traditional-construction grands like the Petrof (or the Steinway, for that matter) are substantially greater than those of the mass-produced pianos such as Yamaha and Schimmel. That is, if the dealer does not complete the set-up of the Petrof, you'll need to budget a couple hundred extra $'s for your own tech to do the work. Of course, that should still save you thousands off the cost of an equivalent Yamaha, Schimmel, or Steinway. Schimmels are very nice instruments as well, with the typical Northern German 'pure' tone which results from the emphasis on the fundamental. Given your preference for the Yamaha and Petrof tone signatures, you'd probably find the Schimmel a nice balance between the two. Describing tone is like describing wine, but I'd say the best word for Yamaha is bright (or crystalline) with short sustain. Schimmel is a pure tone with better sustain (and a nice light touch on their own actions), and Petrof is a sweet tone with lots of sustain. Of the three, the Petrof style has the most complexity. Hope that helps. Good luck in your search, and remember that the only opinion that matters is your own. cv.

Subject: Re: Narrowing my choices From: David Burton To: Cork Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 17:08:02 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Well Cork, that description of piano tone was really pretty good. Maybe you'd like to extend it into the American brands, especially Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin and the way old rebuilt pianos sound especially those whose names are less well known. Your description of the Asian and European sounds is very good. I recognize what you are describing. I too am fond of the Petrof sound among those you mentioned although I really like playing an Ibach or a Grotrian and they have that crisp pure tone. It may depend a lot on one's musical taste too. I play a lot of music by German composers and it does sound well on German pianos.

Subject: tuning costs From: maryj To: All Date Posted: Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 22:52:51 (EST) Email Address: mjhoward@vbe.com Message: Am planning to have my Wurlitzer upright tuned for the first time in several years. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure on what a fair price for tuning might run these days? I live in Wisconsin, mid-size city.

Subject: Re: tuning costs From: rajuncajun To: maryj Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 08:05:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I had my player piano tuned and the felt hammer heads that hit the strings aligned...all for $120.00. I think everyone else that has answered you are in the right ball park...$80 to $100 is fair.

Subject: Re: tuning costs From: Lenny To: maryj Date Posted: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 16:54:16 (EST) Email Address: lvana025@uwsp.edu Message: I live in central Wisconsin and our grand is tuned every few months at $80 a time. ~Lenny

Subject: Re: tuning costs From: John D. To: maryj Date Posted: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 14:24:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I live in New York, just outside the city, and have a grand piano. My technician typically charges between $85 and $110 depending on how much work (in addition to tuning) that needs to be done; minor voicing/regulating, etc... I have the piano tuned 4 times a year. If your piano is badly out of tune and you really want to get it 'back in shape', the tuner may have to come out a second time a few weeks later. Good luck, John D.

Subject: Re: tuning costs From: Charlie To: maryj Date Posted: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 13:58:35 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Am planning to have my Wurlitzer upright tuned for the first time in several years. Can anyone give me a ballpark figure on what a fair price for tuning might run these days? I live in Wisconsin, mid-size city. --- I pay $70 for each tuning for my vertical Baldwin, and do it twice a year. I am in the San Franciso Bay area, where everything (except electricity) is higher than in the midwest.

Subject: Re: tuning costs From: mark To: Charlie Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 01, 1999 at 16:04:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Baldwin 6' grand 1912, Chicago area, tuned 4-5x/yr, $60 per. I agree that if the instrument has languished in pitch limbo for several years you may need a little more... and a follow up tuning in a few weeks.

Subject: Re: tuning costs From: David Burton To: mark Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 16:20:37 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I pay $70 each tuning and I live in upstate New York but there is usually something else I want him to do when he comes since I play my piano pretty long and hard and let's face it, the action of a piano is subject to wear and needs adjustment from time to time. OK, yeah, I am picky. Any extra sound that my piano makes that is not part of its tone bugs me enough that I want to get it fixed. My piano tuner sees my piano at least twice a year. It is worth it to me.

Subject: Renner vs. Detoa upright actions From: Murray To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 13:55:45 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: I wonder if someone might give me some advice on these actions. We are looking to purchase a good quality upright and while looking at the Kawai NS-20 at our local dealer we also tried a 48' Heintzman upright which he also has started to handle. I understand that these pianos are actually made by Petrof and imported to Canada under the Heintzman name. We really like the tone of this piano, not as bright as the Kawai which my wife in particular isn't that fond of. Our dealer says that he has been very impressed with the quality, and unlike I have heard about the Petof, they have arrived in very good condition. One question I have is about the action. The 48' model uses Renner hammers but a Detoa action while the larger 50' model uses a full Renner action. Unfortunatly the 50' model is getting out of our price range, but I was wondering how much is being sacrificed in either feel or long term reliability with what I am presuming is a cheaper action in the 48' and smaller models. Any comments on this or anything else about Petrof manufactured pianos would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: Renner vs. Detoa upright actions From: Cork To: Murray Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 14:24:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wonder if someone might give me some advice on these actions. We are looking to purchase a good quality upright and while looking at the Kawai NS-20 at our local dealer we also tried a 48' Heintzman upright which he also has started to handle. I understand that these pianos are actually made by Petrof and imported to Canada under the Heintzman name. We really like the tone of this piano, not as bright as the Kawai which my wife in particular isn't that fond of. Our dealer says that he has been very impressed with the quality, and unlike I have heard about the Petof, they have arrived in very good condition. One question I have is about the action. The 48' model uses Renner hammers but a Detoa action while the larger 50' model uses a full Renner action. Unfortunatly the 50' model is getting out of our price range, but I was wondering how much is being sacrificed in either feel or long term reliability with what I am presuming is a cheaper action in the 48' and smaller models. Any comments on this or anything else about Petrof manufactured pianos would be appreciated. --- Renner actions are generally held to be the best in the world. The Czech-made actions in the smaller Petrofs (I thought the name of the firm was Tofa, not Detoa) may not have the refinement of the equivalent Renner model but for most people the action can be made to perform just fine. With regard to Petrof instruments, as you've noted they have a distinctly different tone style than the Asian instruments in their class (Yamaha, Kawai, Boston). Petrofs, which are built using more traditional manufacturing techniques, leave the factory needing more final prep than most. This means that a tech must spend much more time (either paid by the dealer or by you) to complete the requisite voicing and regulation a new piano requires. In contrast, the mass-produced Japanese instruments are highly uniform and require substantially less work by a tech. Thus, it is important to purchase Petrofs from a quality-oriented dealer or be prepared to hire your own tech to put a couple hundred dollars of work into a new instrument. In my opinion, Petrofs are among the finest values in their class once properly voiced and regulated. Their tonal quality can stand comparison with much higher-priced instruments. Good luck in your search. Cork

Subject: Re: Renner vs. Detoa upright actions From: Murray To: Cork Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 18:15:32 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: Thanks for your answers. Upon furthur investigation I am told that the Heintzman models in question are not actually manufactured by Petrof but rather are made in a former Petrof factory in the Check Republic that has privatized and manufactures pianos under a number of names.The distributer I spoke to claims there pianos are made to a higher standard than the Petrofs. Does anyone have any further information about these pianos or should I stear clear and try to stick to a more known entity.

Subject: Re: Renner vs. Detoa upright actions From: Cork To: Murray Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 22:42:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your answers. Upon furthur investigation I am told that the Heintzman models in question are not actually manufactured by Petrof but rather are made in a former Petrof factory in the Check Republic that has privatized and manufactures pianos under a number of names.The distributer I spoke to claims there pianos are made to a higher standard than the Petrofs. Does anyone have any further information about these pianos or should I stear clear and try to stick to a more known entity. --- There is a Petrof competitor that assembles pianos in the Czech Republic from parts made in Korea and from local parts. While I would not consider their grands to be in the same class as Petrof (the rim is too important, and the Korean rims are made of lower quality wood), the uprights might be well worth considering. I think the manufacturer might be Rieger-Kloss, and I believe the components in the upright are primarily of European origin. You might consider checking with a local independent piano tech to get a better feel for the situation. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Renner vs. Detoa upright actions From: Murray To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:08:04 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: Thanks again for your response. I checked out your suggestion that it could be Reiger-Kloss that manufactured the Heintzman pianos in question and found that you were right.The 48' Heintzman that we looked at is identical to the Reiger-Kloss 123 Exclusive sold by Weber in the U.S. Now that I know this can anyone tell me anything about the quality or other aspects of these pianos.

Subject: Re: Renner vs. Detoa upright actions From: David Burton To: Murray Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 16:04:30 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I would go with the Heintzman if I were you and expect to pay a technician to bring it out. I doubt very much that you will be disappointed. Is this an endorcement? I think it is.

Subject: Piano for $5000 From: Patricia To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 01:09:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What vertical piano would you recommend for $5500? That is my current budget and I am also looking for a piano with nice cabinetry. I appreciate all opinions! Thanks.

Subject: Re: Piano for $5000 From: David Burton To: Patricia Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 15:50:22 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: OK, I like what Matt D said, and would agree but he was speaking mostly of new pianos. If you want something really interesting for less than $5K it might be worth your while to check out a real nice rebuilt old upright, a really nice cabinet in a tall old upright. Some of these rebuilds are magnificent instruments, especially those with new actions. Matt's suggestions about dealer integrity and technicians opinions are also to be considered.

Subject: Re: Piano for $5000 From: Mat D. To: Patricia Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 02:16:34 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Patricia, First & formost, be sure you deal with a reputable dealer because there are many variables in piano-buying and piano setup. In general, the brands I would look at are: Petrof (good value, available in variety of cabinetry --- needs a bit of setup after delivery from factory--this is not neccesarily a bad thing but this is where your dealers reputation becomes important) Kawai--very consistent high quality verticals Charles Walter--small family owned company--beautiful hand-rubbed cabinetry--needs a bit of setup as Petrof above. Yamaha--consistent quality Baldwin--not always a good choice--you might find one you like. If you can find a used Mason & Hamlin be sure to check it out with a good technician--this would be very nice--same goes for Steinway. hope that's a start Regards, Mat D.

Subject: J&C Fischer 1880 Piano From: Tiffany To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 18:35:28 (EDT) Email Address: tifflak@juno.com Message: I have a J&C Fischer, serial # 59958 made around 1880. It was in our lake house when my family bought it over 10 years ago. Is it worth trying to find someone interested in buying it or should we just discard of it. Any info or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Re: J&C Fischer 1880 Piano From: David Burton To: Tiffany Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 15:44:53 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: well, you might want to get at least $50 for it from someone, it depends on how bad the piano is, specifically its soundboard.

Subject: NY-Little Jewel From: Rick To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 23:22:43 (EDT) Email Address: rforrest@citznet.com Message: I found a 'small' piano in an antique store and am considering it as a 'restore project' item. I have not seen any information about this type of piano and was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. The name on the fallboard is New York Little Jewel, and it looks like a miniature upright. It has 77 keys and is NOT overstrung (treble and bass piano wires do not cross each other). You lift the music rack so that you can place the fallboard under it when you open the keys to play. I was wondering if anyone had any idea of possible value and availability of repair/replacement parts. Thanks

Subject: Re: NY-Little Jewel From: David Burton To: Rick Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 15:25:17 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Well, I don't want to rain on your parade, or on Granholm Bros. who I am quite sure would do a superb rebuild on this or another piano, but I would not do it. I made comments on the whys and why nots in another post All These Makes and Models of Pianos. The piano is first of all not large enough and even Granholm described it as a student instrument, it also is an incomplete compass, lacking all 88 keys, it was never a good piano to begin with, why bother? Remember that the key requirement is what the value of the finished product will be AS A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.

Subject: Re: NY-Little Jewel From: Granholm Bros To: Rick Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:54:39 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I found a 'small' piano in an antique store and am considering it as a 'restore project' item. I have not seen any information about this type of piano and was wondering if anyone knows anything about it. The name on the fallboard is New York Little Jewel, and it looks like a miniature upright. It has 77 keys and is NOT overstrung (treble and bass piano wires do not cross each other). You lift the music rack so that you can place the fallboard under it when you open the keys to play. I was wondering if anyone had any idea of possible value and availability of repair/replacement parts. Thanks --- Little/Jewell Piano Co. of New York was affiliated with Jacob Doll Piano Co and was only in existence for a few years--from 1918-1924. Interesting that the piano is not overstrung. Its small size and short scale indicate it was probably a low-priced student instrument. If its parts were of standard size, replacements should be available. If you want to know for sure, have a piano technician meet you at the antique store and check out the piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Who plays what? From: Rosemary To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 22:17:31 (EDT) Email Address: cparker5@ix.netcom.com Message: I had originally planned to ask if there is a way to search for which artists play which types of pianos, but then it occurred to me that you folks probably know! So I'll just ask you-- what artists play or played Baldwin pianos? And is there some sort of a list re who prefers what? Thanks.

Subject: Re: Who plays what? From: Piano World To: Rosemary Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 15:07:01 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: I had originally planned to ask if there is a way to search for which artists play which types of pianos, but then it occurred to me that you folks probably know! So I'll just ask you-- what artists play or played Baldwin pianos? And is there some sort of a list re who prefers what? Thanks. --- Rosemary, Baldwin maintains a list of artists that use their pianos. You can download the complete list from their website at: http://www.baldwinpiano.com/about/artists/default.htm For Steinway artists, go to: http://www.steinway.com/html/concert/roster_main.html Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Re: Who plays what? From: Mat D. To: Rosemary Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 00:01:51 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Rosemary, Baldwin has a list of their artist roster. You can get this at any Baldwin authorised dealer --- it is part of their catalog. Most artists are playing Steinways these days. there are a couple of good reasons for this: 1)They are excellent pianos and 2)Steinway has a dealer network that is so all-encompassing that they have the ability to supply pianos to just about every artist that comes through any town. I personally own a Mason & Hamlin, which I believe to be as good as any Steinway and better than 98% of them but I see very few artists using them --- -it has as much to do with marketing as quality. Hope that helps a little. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Who plays what? From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 14:35:29 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 'I personally own a Mason & Hamlin, which I believe to be as good as any Steinway and better than 98% of them but I see very few artists using them --- -it has as much to do with marketing as quality.' Like Gershwin's famous song 'It Ain't Necessarily So', Steinway has long maintained its prestige position in the piano market despite the fact that there are many piano makers out there that make supurb instruments that are the equal if not superior to Steinways. Steinway's marketing has been supurb. Being able to cozy up to any well established or budding piano virtuoso that comes along has been a key to their strategy. If so and so, the great world famous artist, plays a Steinway why shouldn't you? We may hope that this board and other sources of information on the internet help somewhat to blunt the snob appeal surrounding Steinway. Now I have played more Steinways than I can count and have usually enjoyed playing them. But are they absolutely the best? No, not by any means. I used to own a Baldwin model L and I really enjoyed it. I have tremendous respect for Mason & Hamlin, old Knabe and Chickering pianos, Ivers & Pond (my personal favorite) as well as many German makes, particularly Ibach and Grotian. I like Petrof too. I am sure that Fazioli is a very fine instrument as well. There are many. In closing, a very good idea of what Baldwin sound is like can be had on Ruth Loredo's excellent 2 CD Scriabin album. She used a Baldwin SD10 concert grand, one of the great and mighty pianos of the present time. Baldwins can have an awesome and powerful sound.

Subject: Re: Who plays what? From: bobb To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:07:20 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Rosemary, Baldwin has a list of their artist roster. You can get this at any Baldwin authorised dealer --- it is part of their catalog. Most artists are playing Steinways these days. there are a couple of good reasons for this: 1)They are excellent pianos and 2)Steinway has a dealer network that is so all-encompassing that they have the ability to supply pianos to just about every artist that comes through any town. I personally own a Mason & Hamlin, which I believe to be as good as any Steinway and better than 98% of them but I see very few artists using them --- -it has as much to do with marketing as quality. Hope that helps a little. Mat D. --- Matt, Apologies for that slip. I was going to mention that there simply *aren't* many Mason and Hamlins made. Is that just marketing? I don't know - it's sort of a chick or egg problem. Bobb

Subject: Re: Who plays what? From: Mat D. To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 01:30:47 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: bobb, Mason & Hamlin had some bad financial years though their pianos have always been wonderful. Early on, Steinway approached their marketing in a much 'smarter' way through their 'Steinway Artist' program where they made Steinway pianos available to all the important artists that came through town. They did this through their strong dealership community which is very well represented nationwide --- Smart Marketing. Mason & Hamlin has never had that high a profile but their pianos are just as highly regarded by anyone who knows. I'm not an expert on the subject but that is what I have come to find out through my own research, in fact, I was told by a 'Steinway Man' that some of those Steinway artists' personal pianos are Mason & Hamlins. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Who plays what? From: bobb To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:00:45 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Rosemary, Baldwin has a list of their artist roster. You can get this at any Baldwin authorised dealer --- it is part of their catalog. Most artists are playing Steinways these days. there are a couple of good reasons for this: 1)They are excellent pianos and 2)Steinway has a dealer network that is so all-encompassing that they have the ability to supply pianos to just about every artist that comes through any town. I personally own a Mason & Hamlin, which I believe to be as good as any Steinway and better than 98% of them but I see very few artists using them --- -it has as much to do with marketing as quality. Hope that helps a little. Mat D. ---

Subject: What kind of rug? From: Mimi To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 14:39:38 (EDT) Email Address: fluffernutter13@hotmail.com Message: Hi everyone, I am going to have a grand piano in my apartment soon. I have hard wood floors, and I definitely need a rug or carpet of some sort under the piano. What do you guys suggest? I have never done something like this before, and I have more of an interest of making the sound better (not so echo-y with the high ceilings) and so it doesn't bother my downstairs neighbor-- rather than protecting the (old) hardwood floors. Please, tips, comments, things not to do-- I would appreciate it all! What do you guys think about getting a large piece of carpet from a remnant store, the size of my living room, approximately? Or would an 8'x10' rug be better? I just don't know...

Subject: Re: What kind of rug? From: Cork To: Mimi Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 16:48:44 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi everyone, I am going to have a grand piano in my apartment soon. I have hard wood floors, and I definitely need a rug or carpet of some sort under the piano. What do you guys suggest? I have never done something like this before, and I have more of an interest of making the sound better (not so echo-y with the high ceilings) and so it doesn't bother my downstairs neighbor-- rather than protecting the (old) hardwood floors. Please, tips, comments, things not to do-- I would appreciate it all! What do you guys think about getting a large piece of carpet from a remnant store, the size of my living room, approximately? Or would an 8'x10' rug be better? I just don't know... --- The choice should be based more on your budget and taste than sound absorption characteristics, I think. Certainly, wall-to-wall carpet with a thick pad will absorb the most sound and help minimize reflections, but their are other methods of cutting down the sound for your neighbors. Have you thought of acoustic foam placed under the soundboard between the rim and braces? Foam plus a smaller Persian rug might work quite well. Cork

Subject: Re: What kind of rug? From: David Burton To: Cork Date Posted: Sun, Jul 18, 1999 at 03:47:36 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I wanted to read Cork's response to this question before making a stab at this one. My piano technician, who is really good at what he does, has suggested to me that in may instances he has noticed that certain rugs, usually old ones, when under a piano, more an upright than a grand, can actually create a microclimate that can cause the piano to slip in or out of tune more quickly than when the piano is situated on a wood or otherwise rug free floor. Now we are up in the Northeast with its notorious extremes of temperature and humidity. To help solve this problem, he has installed humidity chasing devices on some of these pianos and they have helped tremendously. I was really interested in Cork's response though, does he mean by foam, Styrofoam cut to fit snugly between the braces? I am sure that this would cut down on the sound quite a lot, in fact there was someone who put a bottom, similar to a grand piano's lid, that could be removed when wanted, on the bottom of their grand for this very purpose. Also of course keeping the lid closed on the piano will cut down on the sound as well as keep a lot of dust out of the piano. If a carpet were absolutely necessary under a piano, my technician recommended either a fairly light, thin, not shag, carpet or an indoor/outdoor kind of carpet, something that would not tend to get damp and stay damp.

Subject: Beckwith Pianos From: Connie To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 15:15:09 (EDT) Email Address: phlame@netxn.com Message: I just bought a Beckwith spinet piano in excellent condition. I am unable to date it because the serial number doesn't match any of the numbers listed (24087) I have heard that Beckwiths were sold by Sears and that they were not the best Quality pianos. Mine seems pretty nice. I was wondering if the is anyway to get more info on it.

Subject: Re: Beckwith Pianos From: Cindi To: Connie Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 16:25:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just bought a Beckwith spinet piano in excellent condition. I am unable to date it because the serial number doesn't match any of the numbers listed (24087) I have heard that Beckwiths were sold by Sears and that they were not the best Quality pianos. Mine seems pretty nice. I was wondering if the is anyway to get more info on it. --- Connie, Sure! When the piano tuner comes to tune the piano, which should be done 4-6 weeks after it is moved to your home, s/he will be able to give you much detailed information on-site about your specific piano. Cindi West Seymour West Piano Service Roanoke, Va.

Subject: Re: Beckwith Pianos From: Connie To: Cindi Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 16:48:12 (EDT) Email Address: phlame@netxn.co Message: My piano tuner is stumped.........my serial# lacks enough digits. They are not worn away either as the number is stamped in the metal itself and is clear to read. I did find something else while replacing my lifter elbows . Inside it says Pratt&Read Inc.

Subject: pricing assist From: Rosemary To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 17, 1999 at 16:07:45 (EDT) Email Address: cparker5@ix.netcom.com Message: We're selling our Everett console piano and I've consulted other portions of this site to set a price. Can you tell me if I've done this correctly? First, from the 'how old' section, I have determined this piano was built in 1978. From the 'is it worth it to restore?' section I have concluded that Everett is one of the better brands, so when I go to the chart on prices I have selected the 'high' category, based on its manufacturer, its age at the newer end of the range, and its excellent condition. On the other hand, the prices were last updated in 1986-- are they still pretty accurate? Bottom line-- is $1,600 a fair price to ask in SW MI for a 21-year-old Everett in excellent condition? And is 1978 before or after Yamaha (?) bought Everett and is that a plus or a minus? Thanks for advice. Rosemary

Subject: Kawai Grands From: Lucille To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jul 16, 1999 at 23:12:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: old weber grand From: cory To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 17:33:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have an anqiue 5'6' weber grand that Weber was able to date to 1912 by the serial number. But they have no other archive information. How do I find out the model, history & value, etc? It plays very well but top has slight water damage.

Subject: Re: old weber grand From: Cork To: cory Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 22:04:06 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have an anqiue 5'6' weber grand that Weber was able to date to 1912 by the serial number. But they have no other archive information. How do I find out the model, history & value, etc? It plays very well but top has slight water damage. --- Two sources for history: 'Pianos and their Makers' (?) by Alfred Dolge, and the Pierce Piano Atlas. The latter is a reference work many piano techs have, the former a book available in many large bookstores. My copy is not handy, so I will draw upon the little I can recall. Weber came to the U.S. in about 1845 or so, studied piano building, and established his own company in New York City. By the time of his death (around 1880) Weber pianos had established a reputation of very high quality. Weber was not an innovator, preferring to use proven techniques and highly experienced workmen. Thus, his company was more like the Steinway of today than the Steinway of the 1880's. I cannot recall when Weber was bought out by Aeolian, but it certainly must have been prior to the construction of your instrument. Sorry, that's about as much history as I can supply. As for value, pianos have value only to the extent that they are satisfactory musical instruments. The best source for an assessment of your instrument's value is going to be a local piano technician. Hope that was of some help. Cork

Subject: Need help:-Reiger-Kloss uprights From: Murray To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 21:53:26 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: In our search for an upright piano we have come accross a piano sold here in Canada under the Heintzman name. Our local Kawai dealer has just startd handling them and info is hard to come by, especially regarding if these pianos will stand up long term. After some digging on the net and some advice on this site (thanks Cork!) I have determined that these pianos are the same as those sold uder the Reiger-Kloss name in the U.S. and are manufactured in the Czech Republic by a company now called the Bohemian Piano Co. According to Larry Fines book they have been marketed in the U.S. since about 1993 and I wonder if anyone has any comments about their experiences with, or what they may have heard about these pianos. The 48'model we are looking at appears identical to the Reiger-Kloss 123 Exclusive. We liked the mellow tone it had when compared to the Kawai NS-20 we were also looking at, although the dealer said that he would do some tuning and some voicing in the Kawai before we look again. Hope someone can help me out there and thanks for a great site.

Subject: Re: Need help:-Reiger-Kloss uprights From: Murray To: Murray Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 17:30:01 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: Hi. Just wanted to check again if anyone has any experience with these Reiger-Kloss pianos. We managed to get to a larger center recently to look at a wider selection of pianos and found we also liked the tone of the Petrof 50' uprights but we would certainly prefer to deal at home and the dealer/tech who sells these Heintzman/Reiger Kloss pianos has a good reputation in the area. I have also talked to another tech who has looked at them and feels they are very well put together with good materials. Price for the 48' model is close to a Kawai NS-20 and less than a U1 but at this time we really prefer the sound of these Czech pianos to the Japanese ones. Hope someone out there has some input. It has been quite an interesting experience piano hunting this last few months and this site has provided a wealth of info. Thanks!

Subject: Schiller From: Randy To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 17:27:55 (EDT) Email Address: randy655@flash.net Message: Trying to find out any information about a manufacturer named Schiller

Subject: Course/Apprentice for Piano Technician From: Leo To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 13:57:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am a Piano Technician who worked for an extensive period of time in Dubai, U.A.E as a Piano Technician in a company named Zak Electronics. I am presently residing in Canada and intend to pursue a career in Piano Tuning and I'd like some information on some courses or a company where I could work as an apprentice to upgrade my Piano Technician skills. I would be very much obliged if anyone could give me some information regarding the above. I know there is a full-time course offered by George Brown College Toronto, Canada. But this course starts in September 2000 and the tuition fees is way above my budget. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Course/Apprentice for Piano Technician From: Cork To: Leo Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 14:33:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am a Piano Technician who worked for an extensive period of time in Dubai, U.A.E as a Piano Technician in a company named Zak Electronics. I am presently residing in Canada and intend to pursue a career in Piano Tuning and I'd like some information on some courses or a company where I could work as an apprentice to upgrade my Piano Technician skills. I would be very much obliged if anyone could give me some information regarding the above. I know there is a full-time course offered by George Brown College Toronto, Canada. But this course starts in September 2000 and the tuition fees is way above my budget. Thanks! --- Suggest you contact the Piano Technicians Guild. Their website has a great deal of information: http://www.ptg.org/ I know there is a well-regarded home study course in piano technology offered by Randy Potter; he also has a website: http://www.pianotuning.com/ That should give you a start. cork

Subject: Leckerling Piano From: Stephen Dombroski To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 10:45:14 (EDT) Email Address: sdombroski@starledger.com Message: I have inherited an upright cabinet piano. Manufactured by Leckerling. Age unknown. Best guess of 50 - 60 years. Can not find any information on the manufacturer or the piano. Any help? Thanks.

Subject: Kawai RX-2 From: Dawn To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 13, 1999 at 01:09:36 (EDT) Email Address: mdg100@aol.com Message: I am sorry to bother you once again but I would really like to narrow my decision to either purchase or rent a piano before fall lessons start. I have two daughters taking lessons and I will start as well. My husband and I have searched for a piano in our price range which is probably around $5K. A piano retailer has agreed to sell me a new Kawai RX2 for $10,200--a great price by all accounts. For the first time I listened to many brands of pianos in both the 5'8-10' to the 7 foot range. I now realize how tremendous the difference in sound between the sizes. For me and others in the same boat, could you answer these questions: would it be better to buy a larger used piano vs a smaller new one? Many of you suggest nothing smaller than a 6 foot piano--is that a general rule of thumb? Is and RX2 considered 'too small' and lacking in quality? Would I be better off renting a digital piano with weighted keys until I can afford better or do you feel a real piano--and a good one--is an imperative to learning and enjoying? I am so torn over the decision. I had been very happy with the RX2's sound until I heard the adjacent 7 footers. Then my grand didn't seem so grand! This is a huge investment for us and we would like to make the wisest choice possible--even entertaining very good uprights. We don't mind taking out a small loan over our original budget if it is worth it. Please help us with your comments! Many thanks, once again, Dawn

Subject: Re: Kawai RX-2 From: Crandall To: Dawn Date Posted: Tues, Jul 13, 1999 at 19:30:39 (EDT) Email Address: cbchow@usa.net Message: I am sorry to bother you once again but I would really like to narrow my decision to either purchase or rent a piano before fall lessons start. I have two daughters taking lessons and I will start as well. My husband and I have searched for a piano in our price range which is probably around $5K. A piano retailer has agreed to sell me a new Kawai RX2 for $10,200--a great price by all accounts. For the first time I listened to many brands of pianos in both the 5'8-10' to the 7 foot range. I now realize how tremendous the difference in sound between the sizes. For me and others in the same boat, could you answer these questions: would it be better to buy a larger used piano vs a smaller new one? Many of you suggest nothing smaller than a 6 foot piano--is that a general rule of thumb? Is and RX2 considered 'too small' and lacking in quality? Would I be better off renting a digital piano with weighted keys until I can afford better or do you feel a real piano--and a good one--is an imperative to learning and enjoying? I am so torn over the decision. I had been very happy with the RX2's sound until I heard the adjacent 7 footers. Then my grand didn't seem so grand! This is a huge investment for us and we would like to make the wisest choice possible--even entertaining very good uprights. We don't mind taking out a small loan over our original budget if it is worth it. Please help us with your comments! Many thanks, once again, Dawn --- Hi again, Dawn. Wow! I think $10,200 for the RX-2 is a steal! With that said, here's some personal observations I have off the top of my head: 1) Sure, the ''acceptable'' size of a grand piano is said to be no smaller than 5'10'' or 6'. That doesn't mean that all sub-6' pianos are lousy, or all 6'+ pianos are great. The RX-2 has great tone for its size. If you go a step up to the RX-3, you may notice better tone--you'll also notice the big jump in the sale price. 2) The RX-2, and its predecessor, the KG-2, are excellent, high quality mass produced pianos. 3) Most of the pianos I see on the used market are from 5'5'' to 6'5''. 7' grands on the used market are rare, and I usually don't see them in my local piano dealerships here either. It may mean more work to buy and possibly sell a 7' grand than something in the more ''popular'' sizes. 4) I've seen a used Young Chang G-185 (6') for $6500. Don't know what you'll get for $5000. 5) For most, the piano purchase is a compromise. Find a piano whose touch and tone is enjoyable, is in your price range, and (dare we forget) can fit in the floor space of your home. 6) If you and your family are beginning piano players, I don't think starting on digitals is all that bad. I wouldn't let the thoughts of needing to rent or practicing on a digital rush your decision. I've tried a few digitals that are pretty darn good. Still, nothing beats a real piano. Did any of that help, or did it just confuse you more? Oh well, good luck anyhow.

Subject: Re: Kawai RX-2 From: Mat D. To: Crandall Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 01:01:43 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Dawn, One more idea. I bought my Mason & Hamlin from a local dealer and he has a policy of letting a customer 'trade up' within a period of (I believe) (2) years with full price allowance toward the upgrade. This is an excellent way to have your cake and eat it too. If you purchase the RX2 and still like it after a year or more, fine; if you want to 'trade up' you don't lose a penny. Pianos are going up in price every year so the dealer can easily afford to offer this package; you have the benefit of taking a little more time with your ultimate decision of the larger piano. It's an idea --- good luck Mat D.

Subject: Re: Kawai RX-2 From: Crandall To: Mat D. Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 10:05:26 (EDT) Email Address: cbchow@usa.net Message: You usually need to trade up to something that's at least twice as much as the piano you're trading in, though. (The dealer told me I could buy the $19K Boston now, and still be able to trade up to the $43K Steinway later. Uh, no.) Also, depending on your original piano, you may have more time to trade in. A dealer I've talked with gives a trade in time of 1 year for pianos $10K and under, and 5 years for pianos over $10K. Obviously, if they don't stay in business, it doesn't matter how long it is.

Subject: Re: Kawai RX-2 From: bobb To: Dawn Date Posted: Tues, Jul 13, 1999 at 19:57:06 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I am sorry to bother you once again but I would really like to narrow my decision to either purchase or rent a piano before fall lessons start. I have two daughters taking lessons and I will start as well. My husband and I have searched for a piano in our price range which is probably around $5K. A piano retailer has agreed to sell me a new Kawai RX2 for $10,200--a great price by all accounts. For the first time I listened to many brands of pianos in both the 5'8-10' to the 7 foot range. I now realize how tremendous the difference in sound between the sizes. For me and others in the same boat, could you answer these questions: would it be better to buy a larger used piano vs a smaller new one? Many of you suggest nothing smaller than a 6 foot piano--is that a general rule of thumb? Is and RX2 considered 'too small' and lacking in quality? Would I be better off renting a digital piano with weighted keys until I can afford better or do you feel a real piano--and a good one--is an imperative to learning and enjoying? I am so torn over the decision. I had been very happy with the RX2's sound until I heard the adjacent 7 footers. Then my grand didn't seem so grand! This is a huge investment for us and we would like to make the wisest choice possible--even entertaining very good uprights. We don't mind taking out a small loan over our original budget if it is worth it. Please help us with your comments! Many thanks, once again, Dawn --- Hi again, Dawn. Wow! I think $10,200 for the RX-2 is a steal! With that said, here's some personal observations I have off the top of my head: 1) Sure, the ''acceptable'' size of a grand piano is said to be no smaller than 5'10'' or 6'. That doesn't mean that all sub-6' pianos are lousy, or all 6'+ pianos are great. The RX-2 has great tone for its size. If you go a step up to the RX-3, you may notice better tone--you'll also notice the big jump in the sale price. 2) The RX-2, and its predecessor, the KG-2, are excellent, high quality mass produced pianos. 3) Most of the pianos I see on the used market are from 5'5'' to 6'5''. 7' grands on the used market are rare, and I usually don't see them in my local piano dealerships here either. It may mean more work to buy and possibly sell a 7' grand than something in the more ''popular'' sizes. 4) I've seen a used Young Chang G-185 (6') for $6500. Don't know what you'll get for $5000. 5) For most, the piano purchase is a compromise. Find a piano whose touch and tone is enjoyable, is in your price range, and (dare we forget) can fit in the floor space of your home. 6) If you and your family are beginning piano players, I don't think starting on digitals is all that bad. I wouldn't let the thoughts of needing to rent or practicing on a digital rush your decision. I've tried a few digitals that are pretty darn good. Still, nothing beats a real piano. Did any of that help, or did it just confuse you more? Oh well, good luck anyhow. --- Dawn, I'm a very enthusiastic amateur musician, but an economics professor by day. From that point of view, I think there is an awful lot to be said for used instruments. 'Economic depreciation' - the change in the market price - falls discretely the minute the piano can no longer be sold as 'new', whereas the 'physical depreciation' of the instrument is almost infinitely slower. So you can get a great discount on what is substantively the same item. Now there are two caveats. One is constantly stressed on this forum - you *must* have an excellent, independent piano tech thoroughly inspect the piano, Second, I don't know how much of a guarantee or promise of service comes with used pianos bought from dealers. I would suspect that, given a satisfactory inspection, that promise is hardly worth the amount you save by buying used. Finally, switching from my econ hat back to my musician hat, there is one way in which a good used piano is simply preferable, at least if you are impatient. New pianos are more or less unstable for some time (although Japanese ones less so than Europeans). A used piano accustomed to your climate won't change its behavior every other day, will have its tone closer to its steady state optimum, and won't need at least four tunings the first year.

Subject: Crown and treble on old M&H From: bobb To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 11:11:13 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Matt et al, I had previously mentioned that the treble, particularly the octave from treble c up, on the 1931 6'3' Mason and Hamlin that I may be buying is somewhat weak, and certainly doesn't sing the way I like (e.g. as in new Petrof grands I have tried). A technician for whom I have great respect inspected, played, and (to some extent) worked on the piano, and while pronouncing it essentially sound, was unable to improve the treble more than about 20% with voicing and other adjustment, and suspected that the rest had to do with the lack of remaining crown in the treble part of the soundboard. What does this say about whether I ought to buy this piano? The treble is not *bad*, just not what one would like to hear. I thought Masons had a special design that preserved crown for many, many years. The piano is about 9k, still 1/3 cheaper than the best deal I can get on a new Petrof. In the lower range the Mason is still better than a Petrof.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Mark Mandell To: bobb Date Posted: Sun, Jul 11, 1999 at 20:24:07 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: Yes, this is indeed a case where anything short of replacing the soundboard will not suffice. My partner had I for instance, just did that very operation to a Steinway A3 because there was just enough weak sound in a portion of the high treble that we didn't want to risk that staying this way after we'd restrung it. So we installed a new board and the difference was remarkable to say the least. I would add, however, that replacing the board is no small feat, so if it's to be done, the cost would easily be around four thousand and you'd have to wait a few months for it to be completed.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Cork To: bobb Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:11:11 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: According to Del Fandrich, most (but not all) piano soundboards are largely shot after about 30 years. This point is still debated among technicians, but Del's work indicates that the method of bellying the sb's can accelerate the ongoing destruction of the wood cells. In general, the treble area is likely to be the first to show this deterioration. Interestingly, Del believes the method Steinway currently uses on its sb's is one of the most destructive and will lead to premature deterioration. By the way, the 'spider' system M&H employs does nothing to preserve crown in the sb. The crown is established well before the sb is installed in the rim. However, the spider adds to the massive construction of the rim structure and thus helps keep the sound energy in the sb, increasing sustain (assuming the sb is operating properly, of course.) SB crown is lost because the wood cells under compression are slowly being crushed. Based on your description, my guess is the M&H needs to be rebuilt. New strings, new sb, new hammers, etc. For $18K or so, you could have a fantastic instrument.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Niles Duncan To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 00:43:04 (EDT) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: The notion that most soundboards are shot after about 30 years is much too dogmatic and simply not borne out by experience. Although I've replaced soundboards on some of the pianos I've rebuilt, I've also rebuilt many pianos well over 30 years old in which replacing the soundboards would have added absolutely nothing to the result. Remember that Del Fandrich for all his expertise and virtues is in the business of soundboard replacement, and that will color his pronouncements. That aside, the case under discussion definitely sounds like a piano that should have had its soundboard replaced when it was rebuilt. However not every rebuilder has the capability or desire to do this, and often plain old economics is the deciding factor. Unfortunately only a small percentage of the piano buying public is looking for superb instruments and able to appreciate them, and often a mediocre piano at a moderate price is easier to sell than a wonderful piano at the necessarily high price that the effort to produce it demands. To tear this piano down again, install a new soundboard, and restring would be close to a $10,000 adventure (assuming the action is to be left alone). When my rebuilding partner Mark Mandell in another post said $4,000 what he really was referring to was not the total cost to the customer, but what we figure the replacement of a soundboard adds to the total overhead of a rebuilding project. Done right it could produce a beautiful piano out of this Mason & Hamlin. Sometimes we've been blown away by the improvement that installing a new soundboard makes to one of these old grandmas.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Cork To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 10:04:46 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Excellent note, Mr. Duncan. I should have pointed out in my first message that Mr. Fandrich constructs and sells soundboards. Your note again demonstrates that there remain significant differences of opinion among informed piano technicians on many issues. Regards, Cork

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 01:27:29 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: bobb, I just got back from vacation tonight. It sounds like the M&H problem is still alive & well. I really can't shed any new light on this except to say that I agree with (I believe it was Cork) getting a second opinion from another technician with 'rebuild' experience is a good idea. I know it can be an excruciating ordeal buying an instrument for so much money. I say:do you homework (your doing that) and then go with your true gut feeling--It can't kill you!! Keep us posted, Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: bobb To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 22:17:06 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I am greatly appreciative of all the good advice you guys have given. I have found it not just of practical value but interesting in its own right, and genuinely illuminating about the role of the soundboard in piano construction and rebuilding. I hope you will forgive me for asking one more question, one that many technicians don't like to answer. Put simply, should I buy this piano? I'm clear on the fact that to really make it right would require this massive expenditure on rebuilding. But it is not *bad* now. I also have to compare it to the other piano or pianos that would be in my price range, and I'm even more constrained because I'm returning what I consider to be a poor specimen of the 50' Petrof upright, and the dealer will take it back in exchange but presumably not for cash. The old M&H would cost me 9 to 9.5k. The likely alternative would be another Petrof upright, probably the 52', which I can get very slightly used for 6500, and insist that I am happy with it before it leaves the shop (it sounds really bright, but I'd ask them to soak or prick the hammers to my satisfaction - once it leaves there. If this is my (admittedly not ideal) choice, what do you guys think I should do? Is there a case for saying that as long as the Mason is reasonably satisfying as it is, buy it at this price, play it for a while, and later either rebuild it or sell to someone else for rebuild. What is likely to be its rate of deterioration? What will I be able to more or less get m;y money back in resale? Is 9k too much? Or is the idea that for another ten thou one could make it into a great piano, and that justifies the price. I've got to make this decision. I'm pretty confident that I'm not going to fall in love with the pianos I can afford (maybe I could have if I had waited patiently for the right one to come along in a sale by owner, but that bridge is burned now). But if you imagine that I can live with either the old mason or the 52' petrof upright, what would you recommend, taking into account value and resaleability (in case I get rich and can afford a better one latter!) Again, thanks so much for your very enlightened and lively opinions. This is a great forum.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Niles Duncan To: bobb Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 00:00:08 (EDT) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: You're right we don't like to answer that question, at least not from a distance. Chances are from what you said that you're not going to come up with another pile of money to do a full rebuilding in the near future so you will have to live with it as is or with not too much work for a long time. Go get in a huddle with your technician, since he's examined the piano closely and done some work on it. You said in another post that it has had at least hammers and restringing. How long ago? Get his evaluation of the action. Was the action work done when it was rebuilt complete? When they replaced the hammers did they replace the shanks as well? If not that's a serious omission that should be corrected, and suggests a cheap budget driven minimalist rebuild. I would be surprised if the wippens were replaced, so are the originals in good condition - wood not becoming brittle, repetition spring still good, etc? Has the bottom end action work - keys levelled and dip set with new punchings, keys rebushed - all done? They love to dodge that on cheap rebuilds. Bottom line does your tech think that the action will perform well trouble free for a long time with hard playing, and the action parts are new or in good enough condition that he can do a precise regulation now and five years from now? If he says yes, or can get it to 'yes' without too much expense I'm halfway to saying buy the damn thing. Now about the stringing... Did it get a new pinblock? If yes and your tech says it was a good job, all well and good. If not, what size tuning pins are in there? Is there still room to go up to a larger size pin if one had to come out or has this piano been restrung with the largest size already? Up to a 4/0 tuning pin I'd say OK. 5/0 I get edgy, and 6/0 I say forget it. Does the feel of the pins satisfy your technician - smooth, tight enough, and not jumpy so he can do a precise tuning? Are the bridges OK, nothing more than maybe a few hairline cracks? If it passes all this stuff and you like it better than any of the other choices you can afford I'd probably say go for it ('probably' since I'm not there to see it for myself). Drive the hardest bargain you can since once it's yours, it's yours. $9K doesn't sound outrageous for it. If it was a really prime quality totally complete new rebuild he would be asking a lot more, probably around $20K. At that price ($9K) should you decide to sell it later unless there is some fatal flaw we are all missing, you should be able to recover most if not all of your money. One more thing to remember - the cost of rebuilding like everything else will probably go up as the years go by.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: bobb To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 17:42:21 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: According to Del Fandrich, most (but not all) piano soundboards are largely shot after about 30 years. This point is still debated among technicians, but Del's work indicates that the method of bellying the sb's can accelerate the ongoing destruction of the wood cells. In general, the treble area is likely to be the first to show this deterioration. Interestingly, Del believes the method Steinway currently uses on its sb's is one of the most destructive and will lead to premature deterioration. By the way, the 'spider' system M&H employs does nothing to preserve crown in the sb. The crown is established well before the sb is installed in the rim. However, the spider adds to the massive construction of the rim structure and thus helps keep the sound energy in the sb, increasing sustain (assuming the sb is operating properly, of course.) SB crown is lost because the wood cells under compression are slowly being crushed. Based on your description, my guess is the M&H needs to be rebuilt. New strings, new sb, new hammers, etc. For $18K or so, you could have a fantastic instrument. ---

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: bobb To: all Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 17:54:16 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: The problem is that the Mason has already been *partially* rebuilt. Strings, hammers, etc. are new, other parts in good shape. The unfortunate thing, I guess, is that they didn't replace the soundboard in the process of rebuilding. If I understood my technician correctly, to replace the soundboard now would mean ripping up a lot of the work that already has been done. What do you think about this? I'm now inclined to think that maybe I should just not buy this piano.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: Cork To: bobb Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 19:04:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The problem is that the Mason has already been *partially* rebuilt. Strings, hammers, etc. are new, other parts in good shape. The unfortunate thing, I guess, is that they didn't replace the soundboard in the process of rebuilding. If I understood my technician correctly, to replace the soundboard now would mean ripping up a lot of the work that already has been done. What do you think about this? I'm now inclined to think that maybe I should just not buy this piano. --- They'd pull the action and set it aside. No issue with the hammers. The strings -- generally are cut out, but perhaps the rebuilder could salvage them. Pull the plate, replace the sb, drop the plate back in, re-string, chip & tune, pop the action in, re-voice and regulate, and you are done. Sounds easy, doesn't it? Seriously, an M&H is a valuable, high-quality instrument. When you find one for a bargain price, there is usually a valid reason for it. Perhaps you should consider getting a second tech's opinion, preferably a tech that does a lot of full rebuilds. That way you'd get a second opinion on the instrument and an idea of additional cost.

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: bobb To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 17:41:16 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message:

Subject: Re: Crown and treble on old M&H From: John D. To: bobb Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 18:12:38 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Matt et al, I had previously mentioned that the treble, particularly the octave from treble c up, on the 1931 6'3' Mason and Hamlin that I may be buying is somewhat weak, and certainly doesn't sing the way I like (e.g. as in new Petrof grands I have tried). A technician for whom I have great respect inspected, played, and (to some extent) worked on the piano, and while pronouncing it essentially sound, was unable to improve the treble more than about 20% with voicing and other adjustment, and suspected that the rest had to do with the lack of remaining crown in the treble part of the soundboard. What does this say about whether I ought to buy this piano? The treble is not *bad*, just not what one would like to hear. I thought Masons had a special design that preserved crown for many, many years. The piano is about 9k, still 1/3 cheaper than the best deal I can get on a new Petrof. In the lower range the Mason is still better than a Petrof. --- Bob, The problem you are describing is not uncommon to older pianos. I've run across many older, well-respected pianos, with the same 'condition'. Whether or not you should buy the piano depends on how much a weak treble is going to bother you. You may want to consider having the M&H rebuilt. That would probably bring the final cost right up there with the Petrof if not more. However, you'd have an exquisite instrument instead of 'just' a really nice one (Petrof). John D.

Subject: Manufacturer Who? From: Patsy To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 23:45:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Seeking information regarding the manufacturer of my Kreiter player piano. Believe Kreiter was a Milwaukee based manufacturer (1900-1940) but no longer in business. Where do I go from here? Patsy

Subject: Re: Manufacturer Who? From: Niles Duncan To: Patsy Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 00:48:28 (EDT) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: Seeking information regarding the manufacturer of my Kreiter player piano. Believe Kreiter was a Milwaukee based manufacturer (1900-1940) but no longer in business. Where do I go from here? --- Pierce Piano Atlas lists Kreiter Manufacturing Co. of Milwaukee WI, manufacturing pianos from 1905 to 1930. That's probably all the information you will ever find. Is there something specific you want to know about this piano?

Subject: Adam Schaaf From: Ann To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 00:36:15 (EDT) Email Address: moble@cchat.com Message: i recently was given an Adam Schaaf upright piano serial # 16703 i have been told that it was built in 1904, but would like to know more history on it..PLEASE HELP...or let me know where i can find the info Thank you so very very much

Subject: Adam Schaaf Piano From: MBH To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 12, 1999 at 22:25:57 (EDT) Email Address: mbh@twne.com Message: I recently acquired an Adam Schaaf Cabinet Grand Piano. It does have a serial number and appears to be from about 1940. Where can I find info on this piano. Thanks for any help.

Subject: Re: Adam Schaaf Piano From: ann To: MBH Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 15, 1999 at 00:24:45 (EDT) Email Address: moble@cchat.com Message: i also recently acquired an Adam Schaaf Piano....have been searching for days for info on it as well, if you happen to receive any info, i would appreciate it if you would forward it on to me....all i know is that the Adam Schaaf Piano company was establised in chicago in 1873 and was told that last known of in 1926, so yours may be a little older.......my serial number is 16703....What is yours? Ann

Subject: currier piano From: patty To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 14, 1999 at 10:44:47 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a small Currier piano. I know that the Currier Piano Company in NJ went out of business. Does anyone know anything else about these pianos? I read the article on 'How much is your piano worth', but I was wondering if anyone knew anything specific about the worth and quality of Currier pianos. Thanks!

Subject: grinnell From: young To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 11, 1999 at 01:28:32 (EDT) Email Address: BEY@gateway.net Message: hi! i would be interested in any information you could provide me on this piano. It is a 4' baby grand grinnel piano. it says detroit under its name. the serial number is 35486. The piano was refinished and had a new sound board put in. What would today's ball park price be on its worth for estate purposes. thanks, most appreciated.

Subject: Musette ? From: Wendy To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 22:26:32 (EDT) Email Address: wendyss@aol.com Message: I have an old Musette upright left me by my Aunt. SN#277947. I have no idea how much this is worth or where to go to get this information. It hasn't been played in about 15 years but it is in good shape.

Subject: conover pianos From: mark To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 15:20:57 (EDT) Email Address: bmkrocky@earthlink.net Message: I recently purchased a piano for $100 and decided to do some research on it as i refinish it(it had been painted a horrible blue green at some point) but have been unable to find out much about the name or the age- i know conover and cable joined together but did conover still manufacture pianos in there own name??? any help on this would be appreciated

Subject: Webber Pianos From: Lenny To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 12:53:38 (EDT) Email Address: lvana025@uwsp.edu Message: Can anyone tell me about Webber pianos? Specifically the action and sound of their turn of the century instruments. Thanks!! Lenny

Subject: Kawai RX Series From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:52:12 (EDT) Email Address: tdbrun@worldnet.att.net Message: Hello, I am looking to purchase a new grand piano with a player option. I am upgrading from a 1955 Baldwin Acrosonic. Having looked at the Yamaha C series, I thougt it would be wise to compare a few other brands of similar quality. I do like the Yamaha as well as the Kawai. I know that the Yamaha's C3 has a better construction and uses better materials than the smaller C2 and C1. Could someone please advise me if the Kawai has different quality models within the RX series? I would like to compare the Boston line of pianos as well. I also looked at the Knabe and the Petrof. I wasn't crazy about the Petrof but the Knabe KN610 has a pleasing tone and was a great deal at $16,000.00 with the Piano disc included with a recording strip. To me there is a small concern about the longevity of the Knabe with the added stress of the Piano disc. This is a great list and service! Thank you, Tom Brun

Subject: Re: Kawai RX Series From: Cork To: Tom Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 08, 1999 at 09:35:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Tom, The differences you noted from the C1/C2 to the C3 are largely the result of the relative sizes of the instruments. In every manufacturers line you would see similar differences; for example, the tiny Steinway S is not built as sturdily as the Model L. Smaller pianos do not need a massive a construction as larger pianos. Also, most grands smaller than about 5'7' or so really are not as satisfying musically, and a significant proportion of these smaller grands are sold to non-musicians as home decorations. Based on your comments regarding the European Petrof vs. the Asian instruments, you may not enjoy the Baldwin sound, but it would be worth your time to look at their Model R and Model L. They make a very competitive player system as well. The Kawai RX series are fine instruments very much on par with their Yamaha counterparts. The Knabe pianos are now made by Young Chang, I believe, a large Korean manufacturer. Your concern regarding longevity of the Knabe compared to the Yamaha or Kawai may be valid in the longer term, because player instruments tend to get substantially greater use than non-player pianos. However, YC's are pretty well made and I haven't seen any negative reports regarding the Knabe/Pianodisc combos in the Pianotech group. Finally, you might want to look at Boston instruments; they are manufactured by Kawai, designed & marketed by Steinway, and offer yet another variant of the Asian style. Hope this helps. Cork

Subject: about my piano From: rapw To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 16:36:46 (EDT) Email Address: rapwhite@swbell.net Message: i would love to have any info that can be found on my piano. it is a Shoninger and i don't know anything about it. it is an upright and very heavy. thank you for your knowledge and help

Subject: Godfrey piano From: Randy Smith To: pianosite Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:51:49 (EDT) Email Address: randylive@ev1.net Message: I've got a piano with the label 'Godfrey' /w Bristol under that. The ser. # is 25320H and another number I found is 347. Does anyone know anything about this manufacturer?

Subject: Monigton & Weston From: Douglas To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 02:59:00 (EDT) Email Address: GDouglas2@juno.com Message: I am trying to get some information on the Monigton & Weston pianos of London. I know they are currently not operating. Are these considered pianos of very good or just average value? I am not real familiar with this builder.

Subject: Re: Monigton & Weston From: Cork To: Douglas Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:39:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am trying to get some information on the Monigton & Weston pianos of London. I know they are currently not operating. Are these considered pianos of very good or just average value? I am not real familiar with this builder. --- You might be able to find some information on the UK Piano Page, www.uk-piano.org I believe they have a place where you could leave a note.

Subject: 1974 Yamaha G1 From: Randy To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jul 05, 1999 at 09:15:36 (EDT) Email Address: grbundy@mindspring.com Message: I am considering buying a 1974 Yamaha G1 baby grand piano (5'3'). Any advice concerning this series and vintage? About what price for an instrument in excellent condition?

Subject: Re: 1974 Yamaha G1 From: Cork To: Randy Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:31:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am considering buying a 1974 Yamaha G1 baby grand piano (5'3'). Any advice concerning this series and vintage? About what price for an instrument in excellent condition? --- General comments: Unless you are cramped for space, most grands smaller than 5'6' or 5'7' are not great pianos. The design compromises required by the small length make it very difficult to provide good, balanced tone throughout the range, and the key length and action stack length are often reduced as well. Regarding the G1, it was a good Yamaha design and well made. Price is very dependent on the market in your region, so your best bet is to have a technician look at it with you to assess condition and let you know if the price is fair.

Subject: Ernest Tonk From: Asko To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 04:03:07 (EDT) Email Address: askot@hotmail.com Message: Does anyone know, why William Tonk & Brothers manufactured pianos with a name Ernest A. Tonk? I know only that Ernest was a son of Williams brother and was very young in those days and later he was a western artist!

Subject: Re: Ernest Tonk From: Cork To: Asko Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:19:59 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone know, why William Tonk & Brothers manufactured pianos with a name Ernest A. Tonk? I know only that Ernest was a son of Williams brother and was very young in those days and later he was a western artist! --- Perhaps William was a gourmand, and liked the acronym?

Subject: 1871 - Jacob Doll Piano From: zippy To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 09:28:22 (EDT) Email Address: zortiz3333@aol.com Message: Does anyone have an estimated value or an idea of how much an 1871 Jacob Doll piano is worth? Don't want to sell, just wanted to know?

Subject: Re: 1871 - Jacob Doll Piano From: Cork To: zippy Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:18:02 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone have an estimated value or an idea of how much an 1871 Jacob Doll piano is worth? Don't want to sell, just wanted to know? --- Unfortunately, few pianos have any value except as musical instruments. Assessing a piano as an instrument is only possible in person. The technician that maintains your piano (twice a year, right?) is best able to give you an estimate of its value. If it has not been maintained, it's value is likely to be somewhat less.

Subject: key that sticks From: Kay To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jul 04, 1999 at 11:07:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone have a suggestion on how to fix a key that sticks often. It sticks randomly and is very aggravating. I don't want to call a technician unless it is absolutely necessary.

Subject: Re: key that sticks From: Cork To: Kay Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 14:13:34 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone have a suggestion on how to fix a key that sticks often. It sticks randomly and is very aggravating. I don't want to call a technician unless it is absolutely necessary. --- It is absolutely necessary. Piano actions are very complex mechanisms, and you really do not want to mess about with them. There are a number of possible causes for the problem, virtually none of which is repairable by a novice.

Subject: Up-Rights?? From: Michael To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 13:44:07 (EDT) Email Address: csigoure@aol.com Message: I have narrowed down my list of up-right pianos to the large Schimmel or the large Petrof. The local dealers have quoted me $10,950 for the Schimmel and $7,950 for the Petrof, both in polished ebony. Are these good prices?? and is the Schimmel worth the extra $3,000????

Subject: Re: Up-Rights?? From: Cork To: Michael Date Posted: Wed, Jul 07, 1999 at 13:51:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have narrowed down my list of up-right pianos to the large Schimmel or the large Petrof. The local dealers have quoted me $10,950 for the Schimmel and $7,950 for the Petrof, both in polished ebony. Are these good prices?? and is the Schimmel worth the extra $3,000???? --- I'm not current on the prices, but the relative levels seem about right. Schimmel is a higher cost piano despite the largely automated factory because the cost of doing business in Germany is still substantially higher than in the Czech Republic. Schimmels are very nice pianos, particularly the uprights. The Petrof will require more prep work (to be performed either by the dealer's tech or by your own), but on the flip side it has an excellent Renner action. Frankly, I think you'll be pleased with either. Is the Schimmel worth the extra $3K? If the tone is more attractive to you, then it might be worth it. You have to make that call. Good luck! Cork

Subject: What is the best method to clean high gloss finishes? From: Piano World To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 18:34:30 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: I have received a few requests for this information lately, and not being an expert in finishes, I thought it best to ask. What is the best way to clean smudges and polish a high gloss finish? Thanks for the help. Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World Piano World www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm

Subject: Re: What is the best method to clean high gloss finishes? From: Patti To: Piano World Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 15:52:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There are some good instructions for cleaning pianos on the Kawai website: www.kawaius.com, under 'Tech Talk', 'How do I care for my Kawai piano?'

Subject: Re: What is the best method to clean high gloss finishes? From: Mat D. To: Piano World Date Posted: Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 23:28:33 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: I am not an expert but I have a poly finish on my Mason & Hamlin (satin ebony polyester). I was told by the 'furniture finisher' from the piano dealer to use a damp rag for general cleaning and for fingerprints & oily smudges add a tiny bit of liquid dishwashing soap. This works like a charm on my polyester finish. For my general day to day cleaning I use a damp chamois always using strokes in the same direction--this leaves no streaks and does a beautiful job. Be sure not to use waxes or other cleaners that can leave residue. Best of luck. Mat D.

Subject: footnote From: bobb To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jul 06, 1999 at 11:14:10 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I should also mention that the tech thought this instrument may have been a bit weak in the treble compared to the great bass from the beginning. Larry Fine also mentions this briefly in regard to some Masons.

Subject: Kellmer-French Upright From: William Hutchinson To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 23:40:40 (EDT) Email Address: wmhutchi5@aol.com Message: We have adopted an upright piano with the name Kellmer-French? made in Indiana. Can anyone tell us anything about this maker? Thank you. William

Subject: Moving an M&H to tropical Australia From: Sarah To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 18:36:26 (EDT) Email Address: dnah2o@ultra.net.au Message: I have inherited a Mason and Hamlin which is in AMerica. I am in Australia. I have not got any one to identify the serial number but because of the length of time its been in the family and the patents we have found its probably pre-1930's. ANyway I want ot ask if anyone knows if it is worth it to move such a piano overseas to Tropical (ie HUMID) Australia. Or would it be a nightmare on the piano. Would the piano devaluate simply because it would be so far away from its origin? I ask this because I suspect that Mand H would not be as common here and would mean little to Australian buyers if I decided to sell.

Subject: Re: Moving an M&H to tropical Australia From: Mat D. To: Sarah Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 23:04:44 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Sarah, Mason & Hamlin makes one of the finest instruments in the world and if yours is in reasonably good shape it is definately worth having it moved (There are professional moving companies that can handle this). As for Mason & Hamlin being a well known brand in Australia, I believe anyone who serious about purchasing a high-end piano will know the Mason & Hamlin--even in Australia. I was recently on a piano website (I don't remember which one) from Australia and there were rebuilt Mason & Hamlins available there. Best of Luck to you. Mat D.

Subject: History From: Connie Wilson To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 18:32:53 (EDT) Email Address: all6ofus@htc.net Message: We have a Foster & Co., Rochester, NY upright piano with the serial number of 69214. Do you have any information on it?

Subject: Piano Lessons From: Henry To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 09:15:06 (EDT) Email Address: Heniebee@erols.com Message: where can I receive piano lessons at cheapest rate in Washington D.C metro area ?

Subject: Re: Piano Lessons From: Cork To: Henry Date Posted: Thurs, Jul 01, 1999 at 10:14:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: With all due respect, lessons at the 'cheapest rate' may not be a particularly good investment. That said, look for group lessons either at local community colleges/community centers for adults or group lessons by private teachers for kids. cv

Subject: piano tuning From: jgrieve To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 22:03:32 (EDT) Email Address: jjaagrieve@yahoo.com Message: I am searching for a piano tuners school or correspondence course. Do you have access to piano tuners schools in North Dakota or Minnesota or a great correspondence course available? Thank you!

Subject: Re: piano tuning From: Piano World To: jgrieve Date Posted: Wed, Jun 30, 1999 at 08:29:21 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: We have a couple of sources listed at: http://www.pianoworld.com/pianoschool.htm Frank Baxter Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Color My World Roll From: rajuncajun To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 21:36:45 (EDT) Email Address: schlegel@infocom.com Message: Does anyone know if there is a reproduction on the 88 note roll that I can play on an old player piano . Did not see where QRS has it...does a roll exist for 'Color My World:' --a song I always liked and would like to learn how to play.

Subject: Re: Color My World Roll From: Piano World To: rajuncajun Date Posted: Tues, Jun 29, 1999 at 08:13:28 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Piano World maintains a list of companies that sell player rolls at: www.pianoworld.com/store/rolls.htm A few of them have web sites that allow you to order on-line. Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupples.com

Subject: Color My World Roll From: rajuncajun To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 21:32:41 (EDT) Email Address: schlegel@infocom.com Message:

Subject: Brachman piano From: Fred Wendland To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 14:23:29 (EDT) Email Address: fwendland@sunsetdirect.com Message: My parents own a Brachman upright piano. I believe it was built around 1910-1920. Where can I find some information about Brachman pianos and what they are worth?

Subject: Re: Brachman piano From: Granholm Bros To: Fred Wendland Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 16:41:36 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: My parents own a Brachman upright piano. I believe it was built around 1910-1920. Where can I find some information about Brachman pianos and what they are worth? --- The Pierce Piano Atlas lists no Brachman piano. If you mean Bachman, one company with that name made pianos from 1900 to 1929. Another Bachman piano was manufactured by the Schiller Piano Company of Oregon, Illinois. There were also several European pianos made with the Bachmann name. As far as value is concerned, it depends on the market in your area and the condition of the piano. Call a piano technician and hire him/her to inspect the piano and give you a value. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Mason & Risch 1914 or 1915 From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 15:28:51 (EDT) Email Address: rboucher@caractera.com Message: I have a Mason & Risch # 31964 with 50 rolls of music, it`s a mecanical piano borne in 1914 or 1915. He is in a very good shape. Freshly restored wood and mecanic I want to sell it and I dont know worth is it! can you help me?

Subject: German Antique piano From: Marc To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 17:30:46 (EDT) Email Address: mcoelho@earthlink.net Message: Hi! I recently purchased an antique (?) piano. It is a 'C.Mand-Coblenz' and inside it is dated 1835. Does anyone have any information on this particular mfr?

Subject: Re: German Antique piano From: Piano World To: Marc Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:13:40 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Hi Marc, The only information I could find says C. Mand was established in 1835 in Germany. I have some additional information from the Atlas der Pianonummern, but it is all in German. It says: Carl Mand Koblenz (Deutschland) Siehe auch 'Knauss' und 'Kappler', 1909 Ubernahme von Knauss, ab da neue Numerierung. 1928 Betrieb eingestelt. Maybe you could use one of the free translation services available on the Web. Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Re: German Antique piano From: marc To: Piano World Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 14:12:51 (EDT) Email Address: mcoelho@earthlink.net Message: Thanks-I will see what I can find --- ->marc

Subject: Forum Archives From: Piano World To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 13:21:21 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: In an effort to keep the Piano Forum threads to a manageable size, I will be archiving older messages and than deleting them from the current threads. As soon as I have the pages built containing the archives, I will post the information here. (There's to much good information to just delete them!). Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com Piano World www.pianoworld.com

Subject: Estey Pianos From: Emily To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 21:44:16 (EDT) Email Address: jcsteven@atcnet.net Message: I have never bought a used piano before......found a 1970 era estey piano upright, light blonde with a mirror acrossed the top part of the front, seems to play alright, is there anything I should look for with this brand of piano? the asking price is $500. I need to good professional oppinions and professional advice from all you wonderful people out there! Thanks!!!

Subject: Re: Estey Pianos From: Granholm Bros To: Emily Date Posted: Mon, Jun 28, 1999 at 11:35:39 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I have never bought a used piano before......found a 1970 era estey piano upright, light blonde with a mirror acrossed the top part of the front, seems to play alright, is there anything I should look for with this brand of piano? the asking price is $500. I need to good professional oppinions and professional advice from all you wonderful people out there! Thanks!!! --- From your description I doubt this is a 1970's era piano. More likely it is a reworked old upright. Most of the 'mirror' pianos I have seen have been in horrible mechanical condition and ready for the piano boneyard. So be very careful with this purchase, and for sure hire a piano technician to look it over and give you an opinion on the quality and condition of the piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Todd Crawford To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 09:35:34 (EDT) Email Address: prairiegirl@sprynet.com Message: I am considering the pros and cons of the new playing recording/reproducing pianos, specifically, the Yamaha Disklavier and the PianoDisc system. I am looking at a 1923 Steinway Model L and the possibility of putting on a PianoDisc system--the piano is being reconditioned by a local technician, who said they have often put in the Pianodisc system. I am wondering whether I would be further ahead to go with a new Yamaha Disklavier. When I spoke with the person who would put on the PianoDisc system, he said that, in his opinion, the Disklavier setup on the Yamaha pianos were better at recording than the post-installed PianoDisc system. The technician is asking between 20-25000 for the Steinway L with the Pianodisc system adding another 5000, approx. I have also wondered if I should scrap the reproducing aspect and just get the used Steinway. And if I decide I like the Steinway, is this a good price for a 1923 Model L? It sounds like she is pretty much overhauling the piano, as she said, to make it 'like new' or even 'better than new'. I guess I am torn about the idea of a piano that will record and play back my music vs. just getting the best grand piano I can. I would think that the Used Steinway would outperform the newer Yamaha with tone and durability, but I'd like help with this! Any suggestions would be appreciated...Todd

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Mat D. To: Todd Crawford Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 16:53:19 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Todd, Be sure to see & hear the finished piano before making any offers. It is possible that it will turn out 'as good as new' but also possible to go the other way; it depends on the quality of the technician and how much rebuilding is being done. As for the reproducers, it is my understanding that the two systems are pretty comparable but one benefit I know of with the Pianodisc system is that it will play a Standard Midi File directly (without file translation software). The benefir of this is that there is a huge library of free SMF (Satndard Midi Files) available online--lots of classical, pop etc.; just down load the files to a floppy and stick it in the pianodisc system --- very cool! My opinion is that your first order of business is to get the piano you want at a fair price--the Pianodisc system is available anytime. Keep us informed. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: john b To: Mat D. Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 11:58:17 (EDT) Email Address: john.burke@mindspring.com Message: Mat et al.: As for one query abut whether it's 'OK' to prefer a Japanese piano to a Steinay--when Glenn Gould decided to re-record the Bach Goldberg Variations he tried many Steinways but ultimately chose a Yamaha C-III (the 9-foot concert grand also preferred by Andre Watts.) I own a Steinway myself and like it a lot, but I think my favorite current piano is the Yamaha S series (S-400, now S-4, and S-6)--the so-called Hamburg Yamaha. Very expensive but a joy to play. That said, while it's true that 'the only opinion that matters is your own', first impressions can be misleading. I know people who took home Samicks that they thought sounded good at the dealer's but were very disappointing after only a few weeks or months. On the other hand, many years ago I tried a 1927 Steinway that had been unused for years; the action was painfully stiff and I was not Interested, but a echnician urged me to go with this instrument (the price was great) and work out its kinks. That took months of steady practice but eventually I had a gorgeous piano for my trouble...

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Todd To: john b Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 22:32:10 (EDT) Email Address: prairiegir@sprynet.com Message: John B., This S-series Yamaha--I have only seen mention of it in Larry Fine's Piano Book; the more I think back on my piano excursions, the more I find I have an attraction to the Yamaha. I do understand the importance of a good technician. And also, while a Steinway has probably more hand lovin' care put into its construction, if the more complex tone is not what I want, then it would not do well for me to make such an investment! Your kind words about Glenn Gould's preferring the Yamaha are encouraging me to respect my own taste. My sister, who also plays the piano, said to me that there will be a piano that I simply say, 'this is the one!' All of your help and comments like hers give me greater confidence that I can make a proper decision about what is 'good' (i.e. best for me) and follow my instincts. Cheers! Todd

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Cork To: Todd Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 09:29:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Todd, One point I haven't seen made in your threads is the need to take your time in the selection process. The initial appeal of an instrument's tone signature may wear off after a period of time. As an example, I was completely taken with the tone and touch of a large Schimmel at the start of my evaluation process. However, within a few weeks the immediate appeal of the pure sound was replaced by a feeling that something was missing. I still admire a friends Schimmel when I play it, but I'm very glad to get back to my own instrument. There exists a broad range of tone styles in the market today. Try to do everything possible to ensure you select the one that is best for you, but recognize that your tastes will change as a result of the process of evaluation in which you are currently engaged. Be ready to abandon initial impressions. Man, it's too early in the morning for this! ;-) Regards, Cork

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Todd To: Cork Date Posted: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 22:28:32 (EDT) Email Address: prairiegirl@sprynet.com Message: Cork and Mat, Thanks for your good sound advice (no pun intended!). As I think back to my piano excursions thus far, I am finding that I fondly recall the Steinway B I played in the dorm lounge back in college! And while I don't think I can afford a Model B--unless I found a used one at a bargain price!--it would pay me to heed the memory of my fingers and ears and not get too caught up in these first impressions of the Yamaha vs a more complex tone. You know, the more I think on all this, the more tempted I am to take my time and wait for the piano of my hopes; your advice is taken to heart...Thank you. Todd PS. Cork, I'm smiling about your early morning comment :0) I seem to check this board late at night!

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 14:37:02 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Cork, Excellent advice! The 6'8' Schimmel I was speaking of is now out of production and is IMHO a far superior instrument to what they are making today (they still make very fine instruments but they have changed their voicing to suit the market demands--brighter--not good). The instrument to which I refer was one of the earlier (probably 1960-70) models and was probably was too expensive to produce and offer at a competetive price (that is my guess because the harp and finish work were outstanding). I used to own a 5'1' from 1952 and it was the best 5'1' I've played --- it was designed like the little brother of the 6'8' and had a very wide tail (as did the 6'8' --- almost square) to provide a huge sounboard area and slightly longer bass strings. Anyway, do take your time in the process of deciding on a Piano--it should be a lifetime decision and lovong it for a lifetime certainly beats tolerating it and wishing for another.

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Mat D. To: john b Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 21:29:41 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: john b, I totally agree; I assumed in my suggestion that 'if you love it, buy it' that one would have done lot's of leg-work and played many pianos. The point you make about working with a good technician is a good one and sometimes overlooked. The piano you see & hear may be made much better with the attention of an experienced technician. One point though; the netter the piano (Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Bosendorfer etc.), the more success you will have with voicing and other fine tuning your technician will perform. In other words, a good technician can make a Young Chang sound & feel pretty good, but it will never be a Bechstein. BTW, Sviatislov Richter also played a Yamaha in his later years. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: Mat D. To: Todd Crawford Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 16:52:34 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Todd, Be sure to see & hear the finished piano before making any offers. It is possible that it will turn out 'as good as new' but also possible to go the other way; it depends on the quality of the technician and how much rebuilding is being done. As for the reproducers, it is my understanding that the two systems are pretty comparable but one benefit I know of with the Pianodisc system is that it will play a Standard Midi File directly (without file translation software). The benefir of this is that there is a huge library of free SMF (Satndard Midi Files) available online--lots of classical, pop etc.; just down load the files to a floppy and stick it in the pianodisc system --- very cool! My opinion is that your first order of business is to get the piano you want at a fair price--the Pianodisc system is available anytime. Keep us informed. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: John D. To: Todd Crawford Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 11:54:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Todd, It's very difficult, without seeing/playing a piano, to determine its value. I'd have an independent tech give you his/her estimate on the value of the piano (after it is restored) before you purchased it. I have read that the PianoDisc system is very good, although I've never encountered one. I have seen/heard the Yamaha although I never paid much attention to it. Nevertheless, I hear good things about that system as well. I won't offer suggestions only my personal opinions. First, I'd rather buy the best piano I could rather than purchase a 'lesser' piano with the player-option. 'Lesser' is in the ear of the beholder. While Yamaha's are certainly decent pianos, I don't find their tone nearly as beautiful as that of a Steinway. However, I'd prefer a Yamaha that can hold it's tune over a Steinway that can't - so you need to have that Steinway checked out! Keep in mind, this is just my opinion. You need to decide what is best for you. Good luck, John D. +

Subject: Re: Steinway and PianoDisc From: John D. To: Todd Crawford Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 11:57:03 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Todd, It's very difficult, without seeing/playing a piano, to determine its value. I'd have an independent tech give you his/her estimate on the value of the piano (after it is restored) before you purchased it. I have read that the PianoDisc system is very good, although I've never encountered one. I have seen/heard the Yamaha although I never paid much attention to it. Nevertheless, I hear good things about that system as well. I won't offer suggestions only my personal opinions. First, I'd rather buy the best piano I could rather than purchase a 'lesser' piano with the player-option. 'Lesser' is in the ear of the beholder. While Yamaha's are certainly decent pianos, I don't find their tone nearly as beautiful as that of a Steinway. On the other hand, I'd prefer a Yamaha that can hold it's tune over a Steinway that can't - so you need to have that Steinway checked out! Keep in mind, this is just my opinion. You need to decide what is best for you. Good luck, John D. + ---

Subject: Mason&Hamlin From: jkat To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:11:50 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm purchasing a used piano and have narrowed down 2 choices: 1947 Mason & Hamlin Console 1950ish Story & Clark Console Both are in good condition - regulated and cleaned by dealers/tuners. They both look very nice on the outside as well. My feel is that the Mason& Hamlin is a better 'Name' piano, but the Story & Clark looks nice also. The Story & Clark is about $700 less. Any opinions/help??

Subject: Re: Mason&Hamlin From: Mat D. To: jkat Date Posted: Sun, Jun 27, 1999 at 01:05:56 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: jkat, The Mason & Hamlin is the better investment; unless it is in horrible shape, of course. Mason & Hamlin has a great history as one of the finest instruments in the world --- and still is. Best of luck--let us know of your decision, Mat D.

Subject: Estey Organ From: Colin To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 03, 1999 at 02:18:17 (EDT) Email Address: CBogart@earthlink.net Message: I have an Estey Organ Co. pump organ. As I understand it, the serial number will indicate when the organ was built. So far, I haven't been able to find the serial number. Does anyone know exactly where on the organ it is or should be? Also, does anyone know any information about Estey Organs that you can share with me? Thanks.

Subject: Re: Estey Organ From: Rick To: Colin Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 23:09:34 (EDT) Email Address: rforrest@citznet.com Message: I don't know where the serial number is, but I recently purchased a reed organ and found several very helpful and interesting URLs. You might want to look at these: Reed Organ Information on the Web--http://www.reston.com/organworks/links.html Reed Organ Society--http://sponsor.globalknowledge.nl/ros/ Reed Organs--http://cs.bluffton.edu/~estell/organs/

Subject: Re: Estey Organ From: Tony Law To: Colin Date Posted: Mon, May 10, 1999 at 01:41:13 (EDT) Email Address: derekl1@sprint.ca Message: the serial number on esteys is usually seen by taking back cover off and looking for a sticker that is tacked to action near the left or right side , it should look like a 4X6 inch piece of dicoloured paper with Certificate&Warranty on it as well as serial #. Mine says: This organ # 365119 is hereby warranted etc. (1908 organ) of course if its missing you may see numbers stamped in wood either on back of case or action (taking for granted though the last 3 digits may be only marked, not giving the whole number (like mine would use 119) only on some parts as example. Good Luck in hunting for it, when you find it let know what it is and i will tell date made, as I own The Reed Organ Atlas.

Subject: Re: Estey Organ From: Charlie To: Colin Date Posted: Thurs, May 06, 1999 at 20:29:22 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I don't know where the serial number is, but your local library might have a copy of a reed organ atlas. This should tell you where to look, and give you the ages for different serial numbers.

Subject: need help on 4 pedal cornish From: doug baker To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 21:39:34 (EDT) Email Address: firea10@excite.com Message: My wifes family has had a piano in the family for many years that I am trying to learn something about. It is a upright that has 4 pedels. The only marking we can find is the name Cornish Co. Washington, NJ. and the number 333 on the front and back. Does anyone know where i might get some info as to its age and value. I would really appreciate any help

Subject: Mason& Hamlin From: jkat To: All Date Posted: Sat, Jun 26, 1999 at 20:07:02 (EDT) Email Address: jhenson@arlington.net Message:

Subject: New Piano From: Brad To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 00:56:14 (EDT) Email Address: elder1@swbell.net Message: What should we expect from the dealer we purchase from? In other words, when they receive the piano from the dealer, what should they do to it before they deliver to us . . . how long should they have it, etc. . . Thanks!!

Subject: Re: New Piano From: Mat D. To: Brad Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 07:19:50 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Brad, I assume your talking about a new piano. While the piano is at the dealership you should have played it long enough to have found any problems such as furniture flaws, action problems (too heavy/light etc) voicing problems (too bright or too soft here or there)pedals ,misadjustmentsetc. All of these problems should be discussed with the dealer & repaired/adjusted to your liking before delivery. The final voicing (if any) should be done after the piano is delivered as your acoustic environment will be different then that of the dealer showroom. Be sure to have this last point understood with the dealer --- you should be able to have any final voicing (again, by voicing, I'm not refering to tuning --- voicing is the process of shaping and or softening/hardening of the hammers to create tonality --- mellow/bright etc.) done at your home --- -this is very important. Obviously your piano must be tuned after delivery --- -this is actaully done before voicing. Finally, insist on the best technician the dealer has to offer --- this is the most important part, especially if the piano needs voicing. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: New Piano From: Brad To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 18:37:04 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Mat D. Got another question for you then. SO . . if the dealer we purchased from had to order our piano . . do you advise it be delivered to the dealers store and let it sit there for a few weeks while we check it out? They offered to deliver the piano to us within a day or so after they receive it . . and I just question if that allows them time to do what they need to do to the piano before we receive it? My apologies for the long question . . .but I sure would appreciate your advice. thanks.

Subject: Re: New Piano From: Mat D. To: Brad Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 23:30:39 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Brad, I do not know if they need to keep the piano for weeks, but I would definately go check it out in the dealer showroom after ir arrives. A good strategy might be to tell the dealer that you will come see the piano when he has it 'setup' to his satisfaction; you can then visit with it for a period of time (one afternoon, maybe more) and discover what is good & what might be improved. Hopefully, it will be real close to your liking & you will live happily ever after but if it is not, you will have the opportunity to deal with the problems before they arrive at your home --- the dealer is always less motivated after you have paid and delivery has been made. I think it is very important that you let your dealer know that you have done your homework on the subject & that you expect the proper setup (voicing, action regulation, pedals etc.) before final delivery. I may have mentioned this in my last post but the final voicing (if neccesary) should be done in your acoustic environment. The voicing that would be done at the dealer would be if there were serious balance problems with the tone.-- Let's hope you won't need much work on your new piano-I certainly don't want to scare you because it is a very exciting thing to buy a beautiful instrument. If your dealer is reputable and he knows you are knowledgable, I'm sure he will go out of his way to please you. Keep in touch. Mat D.

Subject: Serial number? From: Steve To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 11:10:20 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A friend recently bought a house which included an old upright piano in the basement. The manufacturer is 'haines & sons' but we're not sure how to find the serial number??

Subject: Re: Serial number? From: Piano World To: Steve Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 15:00:46 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Steve, On our 'How Old is My Piano' page, we have links to pages that describe where to look for serial numbers: http://www.pianoworld.com/howold.htm Frank Baxter Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com/ PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Charles Walters From: Gracee To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 00:45:23 (EDT) Email Address: elder1@swbell.net Message: HELP! I'm a novice in the piano world, and thought I had decided on a Charles Walters piano. I'm wondering what others think? Also, what type of price is reasonable for a new 1520? I would really appreciate all opinions. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Charles Walters From: Cork To: Gracee Date Posted: Fri, Jun 25, 1999 at 12:48:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: HELP! I'm a novice in the piano world, and thought I had decided on a Charles Walters piano. I'm wondering what others think? Also, what type of price is reasonable for a new 1520? I would really appreciate all opinions. Thanks! --- Gracee, Charles Walter pianos have a very good reputation among techs. They do not have the 'production line' perfection of the Japanese pianos, but they do have the capacity for a much more complex and interesting tone. Sorry, I'm not up on current prices. I'd suggest you read Larry Fine's excellent 'The Piano Book' if you wish to do more research -- that's a good starting point. In the end, if you like the tone & touch of a CW you'll be getting a fine instrument that will serve you well for many years. Cork

Subject: New Knabe w/ player option From: Mona Boyd To: All Date Posted: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 11:16:26 (EST) Email Address: raboyd@cisco.com Message: I just recently started looking at pianos w/player options. According to the salesman, the player option can be added to any piano & costs $5000 - $6000 dollars. After recovering from this shock, he continued to tell me about a sale they were having on a KnabeKN520 5'2' grand piano with player included for $13,253. Any ideas on if that is reasonable? I would love to hear from anyone who has to player option, if you would do it again, or would you rather spend the money on a better piano. THANKS, Mona Boyd

Subject: Re: New Knabe w/ player option From: Kevin Gardner To: Mona Boyd Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 12:01:23 (EDT) Email Address: kwgardner@hotmail.com Message: I strongly suggest that you stay away from pianos that has the player options because the player mech- anism always interferes with the normal playing action. And also if you are wanting the piano to play by itself, just for listening and not playing I suggest that you purchase some piano solo CD's and tapes because it would be a lot cheaper in the long run.

Subject: Re: New Knabe w/ player option From: Paul Herman To: Mona Boyd Date Posted: Tues, Mar 30, 1999 at 12:08:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just recently started looking at pianos w/player options. According to the salesman, the player option can be added to any piano & costs $5000 - $6000 dollars. After recovering from this shock, he continued to tell me about a sale they were having on a KnabeKN520 5'2' grand piano with player included for $13,253. Any ideas on if that is reasonable? I would love to hear from anyone who has to player option, if you would do it again, or would you rather spend the money on a better piano. THANKS, Mona Boyd --- Hi Mona: Modern players can be great! My Young Chang retrofitted with PianoDisc player is playing a Brahms intermezzo as I write this. I am into my third year by now and the joy persists. Find a piano whose sound you like. Have a player demonstration of the kind of music you enjoy most and go from there. Yamaha Disklavier has the player feature built-in at the factory. They claim servo keystrokes for upscale models -- means that key-release is controlled for total duplication of the original performance. The player I am listening to cnotrols velocity (strength) and length of notes, and the sustain pedal (down or up). With respect to cost, make sure the piano is worth whatever you pay. The Knabe sale price sounds near the low end for a new one as far as I know. If you love music, negotiate. Good luck.

Subject: Re: New Knabe w/ player option From: Cindi To: Mona Boyd Date Posted: Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 16:41:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just recently started looking at pianos w/player options. According to the salesman, the player option can be added to any piano & costs $5000 - $6000 dollars. After recovering from this shock, he continued to tell me about a sale they were having on a KnabeKN520 5'2' grand piano with player included for $13,253. Any ideas on if that is reasonable? I would love to hear from anyone who has to player option, if you would do it again, or would you rather spend the money on a better piano. THANKS, Mona Boyd --- Mona, I have a different view from the other post, you may want to consider. First of all, the player system is a 'PianoDisc' system that offers MUCH more than just a player option. It offers symphony and orchestral accompaniment with the piano, that is quite exquisite. As for 'learning to play it yourself' there are other advantages to having the player system. The piano, of course, functions perfectly as an acoustic piano, so it will not hinder your chances to practice and play yourself. One exciting feature the PianoDisc player offers is the ability to record yourself and others, and play it back. Thus seeing every expression, and skill of the song just played, by you. EXACTLY! It is amazing. It records every fingered movement, and playes it back identically. Some of our most experienced pianists LOVE this feature. Also, don't forget the 'Artist Series' discs that are available for this unit. They allow you to enjoy ANY pianist basically giving you a home concert. For instance, if you enjoy say, Floyd Cramer, or jazz artist Henry McKenna, those discs are an actual recording of the artist in every way. Allowing you to see the style, and enjoy the actual expression of the artist. I also saw it mentioned on the other post, a breakdown in pricing, where they mentioned the piano cost of being such and such. That is not so. When a reasonable profit, needed for any business, is applied to both units, they can both be therefore reduced. So, the Knabe you mentioned and the player, are probably being offered as a combination price. The Knabe 5'2' grand sells for $11,500 in my area. When the player is added, which sells for about $5200.00 installed, you can see, the dealer is offering you a very special discount on both. I personally think you will be missing out on a great deal of excellent features, if you like the PianoDics, and pass it by. Cindi West Seymour West Piano Service ROanoke, Va.

Subject: Re: New Knabe w/ player option From: Charlie To: Mona Boyd Date Posted: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 14:57:05 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I just recently started looking at pianos w/player options. According to the salesman, the player option can be added to any piano & costs $5000 - $6000 dollars. After recovering from this shock, he continued to tell me about a sale they were having on a KnabeKN520 5'2' grand piano with player included for $13,253. Any ideas on if that is reasonable? I would love to hear from anyone who has to player option, if you would do it again, or would you rather spend the money on a better piano. THANKS, Mona Boyd --- Mona, I suggest you evaluate your motives for getting the piano. To me, the reason for having a piano is to practice and play it myself. This gives me a great deal of satisfaction, and I find I am able to learn music I originally thought I would never be able to play. Of course, not all piano purchasers feel this way. You might, on the other hand, want a piano as a piece of furniture. Or perhaps to play music for you. There is nothing wrong with these, but you should understand why you want the piano, because this help you decide on what features you need and how much to allocate for those features. As far as pricing, if the player option is worth $5000, then you are paying 8,253 for the piano itself.This puts the piano near the bottom of the price scale, and I would personally rather put the money into the piano itself. Also, a 5' 2' instrument is rather small size grand, and you would probably get more piano for the money in a vertical piano at this price range, if sound and playing the instrument are important to you. I believe that the Knabe is built by Young Chang, which is usually considered an acceptable entry to mid level piano. By the way, I don't have a player, and they don't interest me. If I want to hear the piano being played, I can just put on a CD. Good luck with your decision, and don't be afraid to take the time you need to make your decision. You can rent a piano in the interim if you do not already have one.

Subject: Re: New Knabe w/ player option From: Mona To: Charlie Date Posted: Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 17:42:54 (EST) Email Address: raboyd@cisco.com Message: Thanks for the feedback Charlie! I went piano shopping again today for pianos WITHOUT the player option.

Subject: NEW YAMAHA GRAND PRICE From: Jim Klein To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 17:37:06 (EDT) Email Address: JKLEIN@ANTIOCH-COLLEGE.EDU Message: I'm interested in buying a new Yamaha 5'3' Grand piano but could use some advice. 1. Can someone give me a sense of the diference between a C1 and a GH1P (I think that's right)? 2. Can anyone tell me what's a fair price for each? Thank you mightily Jim

Subject: Re: NEW YAMAHA GRAND PRICE From: Cork To: Jim Klein Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 24, 1999 at 09:38:41 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm interested in buying a new Yamaha 5'3' Grand piano but could use some advice. 1. Can someone give me a sense of the diference between a C1 and a GH1P (I think that's right)? 2. Can anyone tell me what's a fair price for each? Thank you mightily Jim --- Jim, I can help a little on your first question. The C1 is a part of Yamaha's high-quality Conservatory Series. Though Yamaha also makes a higher quality, limited production S series, the C series is truly their bread-and-butter line, the instruments on which their reputation is based. In quality they are the equivalent of the Kawai RX series or the Boston line marketed by Steinway. In short, very fine mid-range pianos. The various GH1 pianos are aimed at the entry level market. Their construction and quality are not of the same standard of the C series. Yamaha offers these pianos to compete with the Korean manufacturers Samick and Young Chang (Kawai has a similar instrument as well). Hope that helps somewhat. Cork

Subject: Janssen Piano From: Jack Pudlik To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:43:14 (EDT) Email Address: john.pudlik.jr@snet.net Message: I have a Janssen Piano with a built in Lowrey Organ which was purchased new in 1954. I have not seen another like it. I am interested in selling it but have no idea of its worth. Does anyone out there have any idea or know where I could find out personally in the Connecticut area?

Subject: piano make From: arnold Borok To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 19:36:44 (EDT) Email Address: aborok@aol.com Message: I have a piano with the name Drake-Kapphan, Pittsburg on it in the form of a decal. Piano was bought new in 1940 and I would appreciate info of any type. Piano is a spinet w/ walnut case and bench.

Subject: yamaha s400 6'3' grand From: probably To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 11, 1999 at 23:19:57 (EDT) Email Address: probably@mailcity.com Message: does anyone know if yamaha still makes the s400 (or an equivalent). Also, does anyone know how many were made? I have one which I really like, and would like to find out a bit more.

Subject: Re: yamaha s400 6'3' grand From: Mark Mandell To: probably Date Posted: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 11:47:04 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: does anyone know if yamaha still makes the s400 (or an equivalent). Also, does anyone know how many were made? I have one which I really like, and would like to find out a bit more. --- The Yamaha S400 changed its designation to the S4. I happen to own one myself and am also impressed with it. However. I had the benefit of tuning a few of the S400's and as such liked it enough so that when I could later afford the S4, I bought it. I can't say how many are made but probably fewer than the C series because it's handcrafted in the Concert Division at the Yamaha factory.

Subject: Re: yamaha s400 6'3' grand From: john b To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Wed, Jun 23, 1999 at 12:11:48 (EDT) Email Address: john.burke@mindspring.com Message: I agree that these are great instruments. I own a 1959 Steinay O ad am very happy with it (especially sinc I got it at a bargain price because of case damage) but the S Yamahas are my favorites. I performed on one at Maybeck Hall in Berkeley in 1992 (I'm in a piano trio); unfortunately that's the only performance space around here that I know of that has one, and it's gone out of business. Where are you located?

Subject: Hume Piano Co. From: Randy To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 07:25:48 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Grothrian Piano From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 23:59:56 (EDT) Email Address: roscot@mpx.com.au Message: Does any body know anything at all about the history of Grothian Piano's. I have one and it was made in 1979 in Braunschweig, Germany.

Subject: Re: Grothrian Piano From: Mat D. To: Tom Date Posted: Tues, Jun 22, 1999 at 00:58:31 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Tom, I don't know for sure, but I believe this company was one of the original Steinway brothers' owned --- that is the brother who stayed in Germany while the other brothers went to the USA to start Steinway. Another way I have seen the name is Grotrian Steinweg. What size piano is it? I have played a couple of these and they are very nice! Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Grothrian Piano From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 23:59:31 (EDT) Email Address: roscot@mpx.com.au Message: Does any body know anything at all about the history of Grothian Piano's. I have one and it was made in 1979 in Braunschweig, Germany.

Subject: 85 key bird cage upright piano From: Scott Thomson To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:29:34 (EDT) Email Address: scott@measurand.com Message: The upright piano I have has only 85 keys and a 'bird cage' design for the insides. The hammers are below the dampers. This, I am told, makes it harder to tune as the dampers have to be removed. I do not have a name or a serial number. I have not looked in many places for a name plate. I am looking for more information on the 'bird cage' design and why there are only 85 keys. I have had two tuners in...one said it was not very old - 1950's but of English origin. The other said it was over 100 years old not of North America.

Subject: a pianos value From: Doug Lowder To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 02:03:29 (EDT) Email Address: gdouglas2@juno.com Message: I am looking for information on the Monigton & Weston pianos. I do not know much about this make of piano and its value. A friend needs to sell a player grand and I cannot advise her of its value until I know more. Can anyone help?

Subject: Piano dimensions From: Marc Blake To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 07:15:35 (EDT) Email Address: amkarch@ath.forthnet.gr Message: We are architects in Athens Greece searching for detailed dimensions of grand and baby grand pianos. We need outside heights widths and radius of the whole piano. Thanking you in advance

Subject: Re: Piano dimensions From: Jesse Brooks Bullard To: Marc Blake Date Posted: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 20:49:45 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are architects in Athens Greece searching for detailed dimensions of grand and baby grand pianos. We need outside heights widths and radius of the whole piano. Thanking you in advance --- A Grand Piano can have a size from anywhere from 4' 10' to 11ft.

Subject: Re: Piano dimensions From: John D. To: Marc Blake Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 13:46:15 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are architects in Athens Greece searching for detailed dimensions of grand and baby grand pianos. We need outside heights widths and radius of the whole piano. Thanking you in advance --- Check out www.masonhamlin.com and click on Technical Specifications. That site will give you the height and width for a 5'8' and a 7' grand. Keep in mind, dimensions for other piano brands may, and probably do, vary. Hope this helps. Later, John D.

Subject: cable-nelson From: sheila To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:25:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What can you tell me about the 5'8' Cable-Nelson. I've been looking for a piano for several months in my price-range and have located this piano for about $5,400. I'm told it is in very good condition but haven't played it yet. Is it even worth looking into? sheila

Subject: Re: cable-nelson From: Jesse Brooks Bulalrd To: sheila Date Posted: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 20:15:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What can you tell me about the 5'8' Cable-Nelson. I've been looking for a piano for several months in my price-range and have located this piano for about $5,400. I'm told it is in very good condition but haven't played it yet. Is it even worth looking into? ---

Subject: Re: cable-nelson From: Jesse Bullard To: Shelia Date Posted: Sun, Jun 20, 1999 at 20:36:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What can you tell me about the 5'8' Cable-Nelson. I've been looking for a piano for several months in my price-range and have located this piano for about $5,400. I'm told it is in very good condition but haven't played it yet. Is it even worth looking into? --- --- Yes, you should examine everything on the piano, even when it is very new because it could have defects in it that could cause it to be a very annoying instrument. A piano purchaser should not take someones word that an instrument, regardless of its age, is in good condition, even if the case looks really nice because even a terrible sounding piano can have a nice looking case. The best way to examine a piano is to take into account the condition of the barest essential parts on the inside of the instrument such as the sound board, action, strings, bridges and so forth. If there are major defects with the essentials, do not purchase the piano. If everything looks satisfactory, play scales and do subdivided triplets on every key to find out the condition of the action as well as the sound and touch with the sustain pedal down, so as to eliminate the weight of the dampers. If you suspect after playing that the piano can warrant your purchase, contact a reliable piano technician to check everything and let that determine your decision over the piano.

Subject: height of keyboard From: Anne in Alaska To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 22:50:37 (EDT) Email Address: SE.Bagheera@usa.net Message: Help! I think I want to sit at a Technics P30 digital piano. The Rudo (scissors) frame puts the keyboard a full 35 inches up from the floor. My folding chair is too low. do you suppose that the stand is designed for standing? this isn't a very sophisticated question, I know, but I'd appreciate assistance

Subject: Re: height of keyboard From: John D. To: Anne in Alaska Date Posted: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 18:10:35 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I don't know much about digital keyboards, but I measured from the floor to the height of the keys on my acoustic piano and it's 27.5'. I have a concert bench and have it adjusted as high as it goes. Granted, I probably like to sit higher above the keys than most people do. 35' is very high. My bench, at the highest adjustment is 20', my folding chair is 17'. I couldn't play my piano with a folding chair! No wonder why you are having trouble - maybe there is another stand available??? Later, John D.

Subject: piano with Baur name From: SHELLEY To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 02:32:20 (EDT) Email Address: ras-md@mindspring.com Message: we just got an old family piano with the name J Baur on the inside but no name anywhere else that we can find. Does anyone know what kind it might be: 5 ft. grand

Subject: Re: piano with Baur name From: Piano World To: SHELLEY Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 07:07:18 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Hi Shelley, I believe the name you want is Bauer. Julius Bauer Piano Co. Chicago, IL Established 1857 Bauer pianos were made by Wurlitzer from 1930 to about 1937. Bauer factor at 1335-1345 Altgeld St. Chicago, IL Bauer first address was 99 S. Clark St. Also had a store in Crosley Opera house before 1871. Bauer was uncle of Wm. Tonk of Tonk Bench Co. Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Re: piano with Baur name From: Shelley To: Piano World Date Posted: Sat, Jun 19, 1999 at 03:22:10 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Shelley, I believe the name you want is Bauer. Julius Bauer Piano Co. Chicago, IL Established 1857 Bauer pianos were made by Wurlitzer from 1930 to about 1937. Bauer factor at 1335-1345 Altgeld St. Chicago, IL Bauer first address was 99 S. Clark St. Also had a store in Crosley Opera house before 1871. Bauer was uncle of Wm. Tonk of Tonk Bench Co. Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com --- Thank you so much for your reply. We just inherited this from my husband's grand mother. We have no idea of it's value or the viability of having it restored. I would appreciate any insight you might have. I am new to the net and am just learning my way about. Thank you again, Shelley

Subject: Mason & Hamlin From: George To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 07:53:49 (EDT) Email Address: moravek@peconic.net Message: I am thinking about buying a Mason & Hamlin 7' BBpiano built around 1992. Any ideas on how the pianos made around this time compare with the earlier years?

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin From: Mark Mandell To: George Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 19:38:42 (EDT) Email Address: msmandll@webtv.net Message: That's a good time for the Masons. In my experience, the ones to be avoided are from the mid 70's through the 80's. But the contemporary ones(and this encompasses the'92's as well are every bit as good as the ones made in the 'Golden Age' period from the '20's and '30's. In fact, I used to own one(a mode A)from 1933 and it was a truly excellent piano.

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin From: Mat D. To: George Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 09:10:03 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: George, It is my understanding that Mason & Hamlin pianos have always made to extremely high standards though the business side of things were not always so good; they have been through several ownerships but amazingly, quality has always been high. As I wrote you in an email, my friend owns a Mason & Hamlin 9' 1928 which is still going strong. My M&H BB was built in 1998 and is every bit as good as his 1928--in fact, the construction looks almost identical (a couple of case mouldings notwithstanding) right down to the brass music stand prop which is kind of a door hinge style that I noticed had a patent stamped 1918. Keep us posted! Mat D.

Subject: Steinway M - Ringing Strings From: Dennis To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 10:18:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just purchased near-new Steinway M from reputable local dealer (got full warranty). I love tone, touch, and almost everything about it. One problem: a few ringing strings in the mid-treble, mostly at higher volumes. Dealer tech says this is 'normal' in some Steinways and added some felt between strings to reduce the problem. Can this be corrected? Does this piano have a more serious problem? Or do I just have to live with this?

Subject: Re: Steinway M - Ringing Strings From: Mark Mandell To: Dennis Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 19:24:45 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: I just purchased near-new Steinway M from reputable local dealer (got full warranty). I love tone, touch, and almost everything about it. One problem: a few ringing strings in the mid-treble, mostly at higher volumes. Dealer tech says this is 'normal' in some Steinways and added some felt between strings to reduce the problem. Can this be corrected? Does this piano have a more serious problem? Or do I just have to live with this? --- It is just possible that the ringing comes from the highest strings whereby they're resonating harmonically with the lower notes. They have no dampers so there's really nothing to remedy it. Now if the ringing isn't coming from the note being played, it's also possible that harmonics from the bass are being triggered. In this instance, the damping of all notes in the bass would have to be thoroughly checked out. In my experience, the duplex scale generally isn't the source for these sorts of ringing phenomena.

Subject: Re: Steinway M - Ringing Strings From: Granholm Bros To: Dennis Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 16:25:41 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I just purchased near-new Steinway M from reputable local dealer (got full warranty). I love tone, touch, and almost everything about it. One problem: a few ringing strings in the mid-treble, mostly at higher volumes. Dealer tech says this is 'normal' in some Steinways and added some felt between strings to reduce the problem. Can this be corrected? Does this piano have a more serious problem? Or do I just have to live with this? --- My first guess would be that the ringing is coming from undamped wire in the duplex scale. Duplex scales are lengths of open wire between the bridge and the hitch pin, and they are usually 'tuned' by the use of a separate bridge, or aliquot, that sits on the plate and is held in place by the wire's downbearing. The duplex scale is intended to add complexity to a piano's tone, and it could quite possibly continue to ring out after the main speaking length of the string is damped, especially at high volume. My second guess is that the piano does not have a serious problem, and what you are hearing was most likely designed to be there. If the sound is really objectionalble to you, your technician could mute off all or part of the duplex section. If the ringing continues after that, it becomes a matter of searching out the source of the noise and damping it off. This is sometimes a rather complex task, but a good piano tech should be able to quiet the piano down if that's what you prefer. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Kawai 902 v. Charles Walter 1520 From: DMeyers To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 11:30:44 (EDT) Email Address: dmeyers@ceip.org Message: Which do you think is a better quality piano? I have found no reviews of the Kawai 902. I want a studio piano with full-size direct action. Thank you. Deborah

Subject: Re: Kawai 902 v. Charles Walter 1520 From: Mat D. To: DMeyers Date Posted: Fri, Jun 18, 1999 at 11:34:21 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: DMeyers, This may not be a whole lot of help, but I'll give you my impression. It has been my impression that Kawai makes one of the best console/upright pianos available. Every one I have played has been very consistent and quality seems very high; this has also been independently observed by a good friend of mine who is one of the finest pianists I know--the subject came up & we both agreed about Kawai small piano quality. Charles Walter makes an excellent 6'4' grand piano but my personal impression of their consoles/uprights is not as good, especially the action feel --- very uncomfortable to me; it could be the ones I played were not set up so well, but I've played a few. The case work and componentry seems very good on the Charles Walter but the over-all impression was not nearly as good as the Kawai. Hope that sheds a little light. Let us know what you decide. Mat D.

Subject: montington & weston From: Doug To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 16:40:08 (EDT) Email Address: GDouglas2@juno.com Message: I am trying to find info on a montington & weston piano. A friend at church needs to sell one, a player grand. While it is fully restored and in excellent shape I do not know how to advise her on its value as I am not familiar with this piano. I only know it is imported from London and was manufactured in 1932. Thanks for any help you may be able to provide.

Subject: Piano info From: Karen To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:18:06 (EDT) Email Address: Bailey92167@webtv.net Message: Hi, I`m trying to get info on an old piano. It`s a Kingsbury, mfg by The Cable co. Chicago-inside reads - World`s Columbian Exposition in Commeroration of the Four Hundreth Anniversary of the Landing of Columbus mdcccxcii - mdcccxciii to the Cable Company Thanks for your help.

Subject: Re: Piano info From: Granholm Bros To: Karen Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 16:17:28 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Hi, I`m trying to get info on an old piano. It`s a Kingsbury, mfg by The Cable co. Chicago-inside reads - World`s Columbian Exposition in Commeroration of the Four Hundreth Anniversary of the Landing of Columbus mdcccxcii - mdcccxciii to the Cable Company Thanks for your help. --- Kingsbury was a piano label applied to a line of instruments manufactured by the Cable Piano Company. They also built Cable, Wellington, Conover, Carola, Schiller, and Euphona player pianos. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Viscount vs. Other Digital Grands From: Andy Larson To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 12:59:08 (EDT) Email Address: andyl@motionex.com Message: I have been looking at various digital grand pianos and am curious if anyone has had any experience with any of the Viscount models? I am looking for a solid instrument that has good action and a rich piano sound. The Yamaha GT7 is nice but a bit expensive. Any other suggestions are appreciated.

Subject: Help From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 04:47:00 (EDT) Email Address: shaoru62@ihug.co.nz Message: Dear Sir/Madam I need help. Please advise the name of manufacturer of piao with brand 'Schonberg'. Your faithfully Richard

Subject: Re: Help From: Piano World To: Richard Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 07:04:05 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Dear Richard, The only reference I could find on Schonberg is: F.G. Schonberg St. Petersburg (GUS) Established 1894 Known to still be in business as of 1909. Klavierspielapparate. (from Atlas der Pianonummern) Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com PianoSupplies.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Earhuff Upright? From: Mark Carlson To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 17, 1999 at 01:48:51 (EDT) Email Address: mdcarls@pressenter.com Message: I have an Earhuff upright piano that has been in my family about 20 years. I have been trying to find any info I can about it. I understand that Earhuffs were built by hand in St. Paul, Minnesota, and that the one I have is about 100 years old. The piano appears to my untrained eye to be in good shape, with some restoration required. It is a beautiful pianos, featuring hand carvings. I would appreaciate any information about my piano. Thanks, Mark

Subject: Ivory Keys From: Rob S To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 22:09:21 (EDT) Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com Message: Greetings all! Would anyone know whether there is a market for old/used ivory keys. I'm interested in acquiring them for a non piano related project, and condition is relatively unimportant as they would be used decoratively, somewhat like marquetry, though not cut into small pieces. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration. This is a great forum, with truly helpful individuals. Best - Rob

Subject: Re: Ivory Keys From: Piano World To: Rob S Date Posted: Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 12:30:52 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Greetings all! Would anyone know whether there is a market for old/used ivory keys. I'm interested in acquiring them for a non piano related project, and condition is relatively unimportant as they would be used decoratively, somewhat like marquetry, though not cut into small pieces. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration. This is a great forum, with truly helpful individuals. Best - Rob --- Rob, We sell used ivory key tops in our online store (PianoSupplies.com). If you would like to take a look: http://www.pianoworld.com/sfnt.html or http://www.pianosupplies.com Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster PianoSupplies.com Piano World

Subject: Heller & Co history From: Barbara To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 21:43:30 (EDT) Email Address: Labcom@aol.com Message: Any idea where I can find information on the piano I just aquired. (It's age etc.) Heller & Co., NY. upright. (studio)

Subject: W.F.T Tway piano company history From: W. B. Tway To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 15, 1999 at 17:32:11 (EDT) Email Address: wbtway@cloud9.net Message: Hi. My great uncle was W.F.Tway who manufactured pianos in New York City from 1900 - 1940's. My family has only located one (concert grand) in many years of searching. Last week I got a call from a man in Seattle who has an upright W.F.Tway and wants 5000.00. It is in good shape but I believe it is overpriced but this is a family heirloom. Does anyone have any informantion on the W.F. Tway piano company? Thanks for your help. W.B.Tway

Subject: Sterling From: sheila To: All Date Posted: Sun, Jun 13, 1999 at 15:29:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have the opportunity to obtain for free a 6 ft. Sterling Grand from the early 1900's. I have not had a technician look yet, but the owner says although of course out of tune, perhaps even needing new strings, etc, its a beautiful sounding peiano. Her technician says its capable of being in working order. What reputation do these old Sterlings have? I could of course put a few $1000 into fixing it up since they are giving it away. Been in the same family forever, she just doesn't have room for it. sheila

Subject: Re: Sterling From: Granholm Bros To: sheila Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:54:47 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I have the opportunity to obtain for free a 6 ft. Sterling Grand from the early 1900's. I have not had a technician look yet, but the owner says although of course out of tune, perhaps even needing new strings, etc, its a beautiful sounding peiano. Her technician says its capable of being in working order. What reputation do these old Sterlings have? I could of course put a few $1000 into fixing it up since they are giving it away. Been in the same family forever, she just doesn't have room for it. --- We've worked on Sterling uprights, which were very average pianos for their day. I would assume the same for their grands. Work closely with a piano technician on this. If your tech is not a piano rebuilder, find one to look the piano over before you haul it home. Make sure you know what you're getting into, because around here anyway, it costs more than 'a few' thousand dollars to rebuild and refinish a grand piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Rejuvenations Roseburg OR

Subject: Schonberg Piano From: Richard To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 19:30:38 (EDT) Email Address: shaoru62@ihug.co.nz Message: I got an upright piaono, SCHONBERG. Owner says it was made in Germany, But later on I found the casting frame of the piaono said 'British Made'. Does any one know this brand of piabno? Your information on this is highly appreciated.

Subject: Tryber Sweetland piano From: sam To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 16:21:47 (EDT) Email Address: cajopmd@hotmail.com Message: I have an old Tryber Sweetland upright piano that was manufactured in Chicago, Il. Does anyone know anything about them? Can't locate any info on net. Please email me any info. Thanks...sam

Subject: john spencer pianos From: jeff brown To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 07:27:42 (EDT) Email Address: brown@integritynet.com.au Message: does anyone know anything about john spencer & co pianos. i have one and am thinking about selling it. it was made in london and i believe it is quite old, however it is resonable condition.please email me if you have any info.

Subject: Technicians comments From: FancyFeet To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 22:44:21 (EDT) Email Address: fancyfeet@msn.com Message: I am trying to find a website that gives piano technicians comments, both pro and con, about different makes of pianos. A search for 'piano technicians guild' has yielded various city's chapters, but I haven't found the gritty data and opinions I'm looking for yet - I want to know if a certain make is tempermental, high maintenance, or a great instrument and not fussy (notwithstanding regular tunings, of course...), any ideas? Thanks.

Subject: Re: Technicians comments From: John D. To: FancyFeet Date Posted: Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 23:34:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am trying to find a website that gives piano technicians comments, both pro and con, about different makes of pianos. A search for 'piano technicians guild' has yielded various city's chapters, but I haven't found the gritty data and opinions I'm looking for yet - I want to know if a certain make is tempermental, high maintenance, or a great instrument and not fussy (notwithstanding regular tunings, of course...), any ideas? Thanks. --- There may be a website for what you are looking for, although I don't know of one. However, Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' is an excellent source for this kind of information. Mr. Fine's book is a compilation of many technician's comments on pianos they have worked on - every piano currently in production and many that are no longer produced. Later, John D.

Subject: Where is everyone? From: John D. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 20, 1999 at 11:27:17 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Where has everyone gone? All the regulars - Cork, Cindi, etc... Also, does anyone know what the message 'you have xx trial days remaining' mean? Are we going to have to start paying to look at this forum? Thanks, John D.

Subject: Re: Where is everyone? From: Cork To: John D. Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 15:21:33 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Where has everyone gone? All the regulars - Cork, Cindi, etc... Also, does anyone know what the message 'you have xx trial days remaining' mean? Are we going to have to start paying to look at this forum? Thanks, John D. --- Hi, John. I was in London for a while, and am now swamped with work. Hope to have time to check on the forum more often now. As for the 'trial days' message, I've never seen that one. Cheers! Cork

Subject: Re: Where is everyone? From: John D. To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 16:04:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Cork, Glad you are back and managed to cross the streets ok! I thought everyone disappeared once the message about 'trial days' appeared (no one was answering the posts). Seth cleared up the question about 'trial days' under the posts regarding whether or not we have have to pay to use the forum. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Where is everyone? From: Mat D. To: John D. Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 23:52:29 (EDT) Email Address: antmail@aol.com Message: Hello everyone! I'm glad to see some activity here. I paln to visit every day and contribute whatever I can. I'm a Mason & Hamlin BB (7' grand)owner and have owned, in the past a Schimmel (grand) and a Steinway (Upright). Mat D.

Subject: Re: Where is everyone? From: George To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 06:40:03 (EDT) Email Address: moravek@peconic.net Message: Hi I am considering purchasing a 7' BB Mason & Hamlin or a similar size Schimmel. Since you have owned both how would you compare them?

Subject: Re: Where is everyone? From: Mat D. To: George Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 23:20:03 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: George, I personally prefer the Mason & Hamlin. I own the BB (7') and outside of a couple of voicing issues that are coming together,(this can be the case with any piano) it is a fabulous instrument. The Schimmel piano I had was a 5'1' made in 1952. It was probably the best 5'1' piano I have ever played but there is no substitute for the larger pianos. My impression of the new Schimmels is that they are very nicely made and possibly the most beautiful instrument to look at these days, but I found all the new 6'10' grands to be bright and lacking dynamic range (difficult to play --- pp & p). This is a problem for me because this makes the piano very difficult to control dynamically. I realize this is a subjective thing and it is not meant to put down the Schimmel Co. but the over-all impression is that Mason & Hamlin is a more 'serious' (as in more hand built, old world) instrument and in the long run it will hold up and remain a great instrument. I am in music production and was at a preproduction session where the pianist (Bernard Katz-a friend of mine) owns a 1928 Mason & Hamlin 9' and it is still going strong with all the depth and color of my new BB. ..Just my 2 cents--hope that helps. Regards, Mat

Subject: Re: Where is everyone? From: Mat D. To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, May 20, 1999 at 15:03:48 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: John: Good question about $$??. I've just discovered this place and hate to think we are going to be expected to pay in the future. Frankly, I would probably go back to spending more time (no pun intended) on the 'Timezone' watch forum: timezone.com Let's hope the powers tht be make the rational decision to keep this forum open, free and interesting! Just my own thoughts--any others out there? Regards Mat D.

Subject: Barnhart Pianos From: Jerry Ancion To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 20:29:26 (EDT) Email Address: JerrySr.Ancion@Worldnet.att.net Message: Trying to get information on Barnhart Piano Co. Where was it located, when, etc. Need for my family history. Please email reply. Thanks ! Jerry Ancion

Subject: Charles Walter Grands From: bert To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:30:41 (EDT) Email Address: kmcurtis@erols.com Message: Now that they are available in our area, I'd love to hear from those with experience with the CW Grand. Please give your impressions, commenting upon how it compares with other grands in the same class.

Subject: Re: Charles Walter Grands From: Mat D. To: bert Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:50:49 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Bert, A former piano store owner friend of mine who is very knowledgeable on the subject has high praise for Charles Walter grands. I have played a couple of these pianos and was impressed over-all, but I was especially impressed by the length of sustain in the mid-range; even longer than my Mason & Hamlin BB. If you are looking for the 'American' (S&S/M&H/Baldwin) piano sound this might be a good choice. Also, it is my understanding that this piano (6'4') was designed by Del Fandrich who is one of the best piano techs in the business. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Charles Walter Grands From: Cork To: bert Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 10, 1999 at 09:03:57 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Now that they are available in our area, I'd love to hear from those with experience with the CW Grand. Please give your impressions, commenting upon how it compares with other grands in the same class. --- I've only had the opportunity to play one CW grand, and that for only a short time. I enjoyed the tone and preferred it to the closest S&S equivalent (the L, which is not one of my favorite Steinways). It's certainly worth considering if you are drawn to the M&H/S&S/Baldwin Artist style. Construction was reassuringly massive and the finish was nicely done. For what it's worth . . . Cork

Subject: Tuning a wurlitzer electric piano From: Phil To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Apr 29, 1999 at 12:59:40 (EDT) Email Address: phil@climax.co.uk Message: Can anyone give me advice on how to tune one? I have tuned Rhodes before but this seems to be quite differant.

Subject: Re: Tuning a wurlitzer electric piano From: Piano World To: Phil Date Posted: Wed, Jun 09, 1999 at 12:36:56 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Hi Phil, You are right, tuning a Wurlitzer electronic piano is different from a Rhodes. The Wurlitzer uses a metal 'reed' that gets part of its pitch from the node of solder you see on the tip. When you replace a reed (they used to break often when played too hard), the new one is actually lower than the desired pitch. You then have to (very carefully) file the lead until the proper pitch is obtained. The problem arises when you take off too much. Although it is possible to add a little solder back on (provided you have some solder and a soldering iron), it isn't easy. I would also recommend not trying to file it with the piano turned on. This is because the reed vibrates in a little channel between the part that picks up on the pitch and volume. As I understand it, the vibrating reed sets up some sort of 'capacitive inductance' (I may be off slightly on the terminology) within the channel. If you bridge the space between the reed and the channel while the piano is turned on, you could short something out. I'm on the road at the moment, so I don't have all the finer details with me. If you would like more information, drop me a note and I'll look it up for you. Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World PianoSupplies.com Piano Help All About Pianos http://www.pianoworld.com http://www.pianosupplies.com

Subject: Re: Tuning a wurlitzer electric piano From: K To: Phil Date Posted: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 09:51:19 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am seeking the same information, I can't seem to find out any info on the web about it. Please help! If you should find out, please post here! Thanks K

Subject: Nordiska From: Maria To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 22:54:24 (EDT) Email Address: www.choirfiend@yahoo.com Message: Hi everyone, My family and I are looking into buying a piano, and we have found a attractive piano from Nordiska with parent company Petrof. However, there are some noticable problems such as a practice pedal that is more loose towards one end so that the notes aren't dampened. I understand they are fixable, but they are a concern since it is a new piano. If anyone knows info about the quality of the companies or the model, a 116-CB, please let me know. Thanks, Maria

Subject: Re: Nordiska From: Mat D. To: Maria Date Posted: Tues, Jun 08, 1999 at 00:15:24 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Maria, I have no information about your specific piano company but be absolutely sure you are dealing with a reputable dealer and that all of these problems are straightened out before they ship the piano. Tuning and minor adjustment is to be expected after delivery but if something is broken or way out of adjustment, make them repair it before delivery. The petrof company generally makes a nice product but to keep their pricing down, they need much adjustment at the dealer before shipment. Let the dealer know you EXPECT this service and if he hesitates, take your business elsewhere. Best Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Nordiska From: Maria To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 22:54:50 (EDT) Email Address: choirfiend@yahoo.com Message: Hi everyone, My family and I are looking into buying a piano, and we have found a attractive piano from Nordiska with parent company Petrof. However, there are some noticable problems such as a practice pedal that is more loose towards one end so that the notes aren't dampened. I understand they are fixable, but they are a concern since it is a new piano. If anyone knows info about the quality of the companies or the model, a 116-CB, please let me know. Thanks, Maria

Subject: Hi Cindi-Kawai NS-20 vs Yamaha U1 From: Murray To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 01:46:01 (EDT) Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca Message: Thanks for your advice earlier this month. We have since decided against the old Steinway I mentioned before. After a lot of research (including a lot of good information from searching through this site) and talking to a lot of people, we are leaning heavily towards buying new. We are located in S.W Manitoba, Canada, and would prefer to buy locally if possible which means either Kawai or Yamaha. We have tried a couple of NS-20's at one dealer and were impressed. I understand that a U1 would be Yamaha's comparable model but unfortunatly the local dealer doesn't have one in stock at present so we will have to wait until we can get to Winnipeg. Since you mentioned that you deal with both these models, I wonder if you could give me any comments, either pro or con, that you might have on these two pianos. I understand that I can't make any real descision until I can try them both. Comments from anyone else about this would also be welcome. Thanks

Subject: Re: Hi Cindi-Kawai NS-20 vs Yamaha U1 From: bert To: Murray Date Posted: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 08:59:27 (EDT) Email Address: kmcurtis Message: One factor to consider: The NS-20 has many non-wood parts, which many techs believe adds to its stability. I imagine that your house in Manitoba might have swings in humidity during the year. If so, by combining this piano with a Damppchaser climate control system, you'd be getting a bonus of an instrument that holds its 'shape' very well. About the finishes: I agree that some of the Kawai's are especially beautiful. Our NS-20 is the prettiest piece of wood in the house! If you decide to go in that direction, try to see samples of all the available finishes. Continue to enjoy your hunt...

Subject: Re: Hi Cindi-Kawai NS-20 vs Yamaha U1 From: Cindi To: Murray Date Posted: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 16:50:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Murray, We are dealers for PianoDisc, Knabr and Weber pianos. We are the retrofit kit installer as well for PianoDisc, and the Yamaha and Kawai authorized servicer. Between the two, Kawai and Yamaha, my preference is Kawai. One of those main reasons is dealing with the companies themselves, and seeing how they assist on warranty, and any follow-up concerns. Kawai is MOST helpful in assisting. We have found it to be different when working with Yamaha Corp. of America. We have been the authorized Yamaha servicer for 21 years. I also prefer the Kawai pianos personally. You will have to play both, and see which on you prefer. Cindi West Seymour West Piano Service

Subject: Re: Hi Cindi-Kawai NS-20 vs Yamaha U1 From: Wing To: Cindi Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 21:39:00 (EDT) Email Address: Kawing_Kwan@hp.com Message: Murray, We are dealers for PianoDisc, Knabr and Weber pianos. We are the retrofit kit installer as well for PianoDisc, and the Yamaha and Kawai authorized servicer. Between the two, Kawai and Yamaha, my preference is Kawai. One of those main reasons is dealing with the companies themselves, and seeing how they assist on warranty, and any follow-up concerns. Kawai is MOST helpful in assisting. We have found it to be different when working with Yamaha Corp. of America. We have been the authorized Yamaha servicer for 21 years. I also prefer the Kawai pianos personally. You will have to play both, and see which on you prefer. Cindi West Seymour West Piano Service --- Dear Cindi, Since you are in the piano servicing business, can you tell me which piano, Kawai NS-20A and Yamaha U1, is better in terms of workmanship, design and material? Also, is it easy to service a Kawai? I am trying to make the same decision as Murray. Thank you very much for your time in advance. Wing

Subject: Re: Hi Cindi-Kawai NS-20 vs Yamaha U1 From: Mat D. To: Murray Date Posted: Sun, May 23, 1999 at 15:39:17 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Murray: My experince with Kawai uprights is that they are excellent. I would go so far as to say (I've heard this from at least 2 other professional musicians) they are among the best you can buy in an upright piano. It's a big undertaking buying a new piano--I hope this helps a little. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Hi Cindi-Kawai NS-20 vs Yamaha U1 From: Rob S. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 22:13:53 (EDT) Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com Message: I recently purchased a U1 - in fact it had its first in house tuning this morning - and am quite pleased with it. However if I were buying again this month (God forbid), I would give very serious consideration to the Kawai. We (my family and I) had the opportunity to play some Kawais (two NS-20a's I believe), and were very impressed. The sound seemed fuller than our Yamaha, and the fit and finish were impressive, as is the Yamaha's. While I don't know the technical side of the business like Cindi - I did call Yamaha during my purchase - since my dealer was a liar and could not be trusted, and I was surprised by their reaction to dealer problems. I was actually told that if I was buying from this particular dealer, the assumed discount price I was receiving more than made up for the problems I was having! Additionally I also found out that the much vaunted Yamaha Service Bond is not necessarily part of the Yamaha service one automatically receives. Instead it's suggested to the dealers, and Yamaha HOPES the dealers make it available to the customer. Larry Fine mentions in his book that some dealers collect from Yamaha on tunings and service never provided. In other words Yamaha is at least aware that some customers aren't receiving the benefits of its' Service Bond but they continue to tout it as if it's universal. That said, the U1 is a very nice piano, and the tech who worked on it today showed me several reasons why. In addition it's easy for them to work on. One point, the new (1999) U1's have a slow fall fallboard, and a new scale design similar to the discontinued WX1. If you are shown a U1 without a slow fall fallboard, it is not the most recent model. These are two nice pianos. Play the heck out of them until you know which one you want to live with. Good luck! Best - Rob S.

Subject: Nanon upright pianos From: Jacqui To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 09:18:48 (EDT) Email Address: JacquiM@hha.com.au Message: Does anyone know anything about 'Nanon' pianos. There is one for sale that I wish to buy and I'm told they are German - but cannot find any information on them, or how old, prices to expect to pay etc Any information would be welcome

Subject: type of piano From: shelley To: All Date Posted: Mon, Jun 07, 1999 at 00:01:20 (EDT) Email Address: ras-md@mindspring.com Message: We have a piano-5ft. grand with the name _ j. Baur on the inside. We think the piano is about 70 yrs. old. Does anyone recognize the Baur name?

Subject: Zimmerman Pianos From: Lee Wallinder To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 14:01:55 (EDT) Email Address: lwallind@consrv.ca.gov Message: Before we were married, my wife bought a Zimmerman baby grand piano. We are looking to sell it but need to get some information about Zimmerman Pianos. I would appreciate any information on Zimmerman you could provide. Thank you.

Subject: Re: Zimmerman Pianos From: Paul To: Lee Wallinder Date Posted: Sun, Jun 06, 1999 at 16:18:49 (EDT) Email Address: pianostudent@deja.com Message: Before we were married, my wife bought a Zimmerman baby grand piano. We are looking to sell it but need to get some information about Zimmerman Pianos. I would appreciate any information on Zimmerman you could provide. Thank you. --- According to Larry Fine's book, the brothers Zimmerman started manufacturing pianos under the name Leipzig Pianofortefabrik in Moelkin, Germany in 1884. Operations ceased and restarted after WW II. In the early 70's, many of the smaller East German piano manufacturers were brought under centralized state piano control under the name, 'German Piano Union Leipzig,' and Zimmermans apparently were one of the labels manufactured by the state-owned factories. Models sold included two studio-sized uprights and a small 4'9' baby grand, which began to be imported into the United States in the 1980s. Mr. Fine indicates that some of these pianos had very nice cases and, after a shakeout period in which humidity-related problems were addressed, were suitable for casual home use. In 1991 or 1992, the label was bought by the Bechstein Group and the pianos redesigned. I haven't seen anything about these new Zimmermans being imported into the U.S. In searching the web one can occasionally find a used Zimmerman for sale, although usually in Europe.

Subject: Voicing Approach? From: Mat D. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 03, 1999 at 23:56:00 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: I'm thinking about having my Mason & Hamlin 7' voiced and I called on a technician that came very highly recommended but I must ask opinions on his recommendation. I know that the most common way to soften a hammer for voicing is to needle it but his recommendation was to soak (in water/alcohol solution via a dropper) the hammers until they swell and soften. After a week or so, he would start to build a tone (shaping etc) from these now softer hammers. He said that when the hammers are first softened they would sound terrible (mushy) and this is understandable. He also said that it would take at least 3 visits to get all voicing work done --- this is also understandable. This technician is reputed to be the best in my Detroit area but I'm a bit scared. My piano is (1) year old and I certainly don't want to ruin a new set of hammers. I know that Steinways come from the factory with very soft hammers and need many hours of voicing before they sound beautiful--this makes me think that my technician might be on the right track--my piano has tremendous potential but at this point it is about 90% there--I am tempted. Any comment welcome. Thanks in advance. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Voicing Approach? From: Cork To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 13:42:14 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm thinking about having my Mason & Hamlin 7' voiced and I called on a technician that came very highly recommended but I must ask opinions on his recommendation. I know that the most common way to soften a hammer for voicing is to needle it but his recommendation was to soak (in water/alcohol solution via a dropper) the hammers until they swell and soften. After a week or so, he would start to build a tone (shaping etc) from these now softer hammers. He said that when the hammers are first softened they would sound terrible (mushy) and this is understandable. He also said that it would take at least 3 visits to get all voicing work done --- this is also understandable. This technician is reputed to be the best in my Detroit area but I'm a bit scared. My piano is (1) year old and I certainly don't want to ruin a new set of hammers. I know that Steinways come from the factory with very soft hammers and need many hours of voicing before they sound beautiful--this makes me think that my technician might be on the right track--my piano has tremendous potential but at this point it is about 90% there--I am tempted. Any comment welcome. Thanks in advance. Mat D. --- Versions of the process he's described are widely employed by technicians. Del Fandrich, something of an authority on the subject, believes most modern hammers are too hard (particularly for old N.Am. scale designs such as M&H and S&S) because they are pressed in heated cauls, rather than cold-pressed. In fact, there are a few alternative hammer suppliers that provide softer, cold-pressed hammers to discerning rebuilders. Many people believe the overly hard (and overly heavy) modern hammers have contributed to a harsher sound in modern instruments. As with virtually every other subject in this field, there exists a significant group of people who disagree with all the above. That's what makes all this so much fun! In the alcohol/water mixture, the alcohol breaks the surface tension of the water and enables deeper penetration of the wool. The fibers, absorbing the water, swell and then loosen as the water evaporates. Thus the effect is similar to needling but is thought to be more general and less destructive. Some techs control the process by administering the solution through a dropper, softening the hammers by degrees. Sounds like your tech prefers to make them all too soft and then bring them back to the right level through the application of hardening solutions. Is that enough info to confuse you further? Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Voicing Approach? From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 23:54:10 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Cork, your description of the process of water/alcohol application is exactly as described by my technician and that gives me more confidence to go ahead with the procedure. Del Fandrich emailed me in response to this question and he agreed that most modern piano hammers are too hard and that if my technician came highly recomended that I would probably be best off trusting his judgement. So far, we are all in agreement and nothing I have heard contradicts anything the technician told me. Thanks again for your response. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Voicing Approach? From: Cork To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 16:10:24 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: Del is a giant in the industry, and someone whose advice I'd follow with complete confidence. It's a dream of mine to someday acquire a piano from his shop. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Hardman baby grand From: cd To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 23:50:27 (EDT) Email Address: WTHSSF Message: I,m looking for info on Hardman baby grand, 1917. Any info on value would be helpful. Thanks. aol.com

Subject: Re: Hardman baby grand From: Cork To: cd Date Posted: Sat, Jun 05, 1999 at 16:06:40 (EDT) Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com Message: I,m looking for info on Hardman baby grand, 1917. Any info on value would be helpful. Thanks. --- Hardman grands were very fine instruments. Their 5'3' small grand was highly regarded in it's size class. However, the value of a 80+ year-old piano will be heavily dependent on its condition, which can be determined only by a professional technician in person.

Subject: Boston a Steinway in disguise? From: Brad To: All Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 01:37:22 (EDT) Email Address: brad@bauerhaus.com Message: Is Boston really a better value than a Yamaha or Kawai just because it says 'Designed by Steinway' inside? I'm told by some that Boston is really just another mass-produced product like Kawai or Yamaha, and that if I'm going to pay more, it should be for a truely hand-crafted instrument like Baldwin or Steinway. Does anybody actually KNOW?

Subject: Re: Boston a Steinway in disguise? From: Cork To: Brad Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 16:21:01 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is Boston really a better value than a Yamaha or Kawai just because it says 'Designed by Steinway' inside? I'm told by some that Boston is really just another mass-produced product like Kawai or Yamaha, and that if I'm going to pay more, it should be for a truely hand-crafted instrument like Baldwin or Steinway. Does anybody actually KNOW? --- Boston was designed by Steinway and is made by Kawai for S&S. It provides S&S dealers with a good quality mid-range instrument to capture a portion of the market that cannot afford Steinways. In terms of build quality the Boston is in the same class as the Kawai RX and Yamaha C series, is constructed of similar materials, and is built in a similar manner. Opinions of tone and touch vary, but for those who like the tone of the Boston it is a very nice piano indeed. To learn more about new pianos in general, you might want to pick up Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', an instructive consumer guide to the piano market. Cork

Subject: Re: Boston a Steinway in disguise? From: Lenny To: Brad Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:03:48 (EDT) Email Address: lvana025@uwsp.edu Message: Hi Brad, I have a Boston grand at home. While it is true that the piano says,'Designed by Steinway...', it is also true that the instrument is made in Japan. If my memory serves me right, I believe that Boston is made in the Kawai plant. However, I have played Kawai pianos, I have played Yamaha, I have played many Steinway pianos and the feel, sound, etc. of a Boston are very close to that of a Steinway. I have not been at all let down by my Boston. I don't know if this helps you at all. But I hope it does. Keep me posted on what you decide. Good Luck. ~Lenny

Subject: Kimball baby grand From: Chris To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 03, 1999 at 23:40:34 (EDT) Email Address: cochran@fidnet.com Message: I'm trying to figure out what a white, nine year old, petite,Kimball baby grand in mint condition is worth. I'm also wondering how value and maintenance will fair in the future. If anyone could share an opinion I would greatly appreciate it.

Subject: Re: Kimball baby grand From: Cork To: Chris Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 16:54:09 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm trying to figure out what a white, nine year old, petite,Kimball baby grand in mint condition is worth. I'm also wondering how value and maintenance will fair in the future. If anyone could share an opinion I would greatly appreciate it. --- Chris, The very small Kimball grands (at one point I think they were named La Petite) were not among the best pianos made in the US. Design compromises inherent in pianos that small limit their potential. Having said that, the market for used pianos varies by region. Piano technicians in your area are best able to give you an idea of the value of that particular instrument. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Schwander action From: Joel To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 03, 1999 at 04:21:19 (EDT) Email Address: bangen@gte.net Message: I noticed that my Kimball Artist Console has Schwander action. What is the significance of this? Is this action found only in Kimball pianos? Are there other actions in Artist Consoles? Is this a German, or English design, or just a name after the inventor? What are the pro/cons of this action? Anything else I should know about this action? I'm thinking of selling this instrument, is this a selling point?

Subject: Post Technician Routine From: Alex To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 15:54:16 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can anyone suggest a routine to do after the piano technician is finished working on a piano. I always play a little and everything feels and sounds great. Then, by the next day, I notice all the little things (easily fixable) that I missed (e.g., note out of tune, a click here etc.) Thanks.

Subject: Re: Post Technician Routine From: Mark Mandell To: Alex Date Posted: Thurs, Jun 03, 1999 at 02:12:47 (EDT) Email Address: msmandl@webtv.net Message: Can anyone suggest a routine to do after the piano technician is finished working on a piano. I always play a little and everything feels and sounds great. Then, by the next day, I notice all the little things (easily fixable) that I missed (e.g., note out of tune, a click here etc.) Thanks. --- Why don't you simplyn call the tech that worked on it, esp. if it's the same tech and the same problems keep appearing?

Subject: Re: Post Technician Routine From: Alex To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 10:02:23 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, I do call the technician back and he does fix the problem. It's just a pain to have to go through this everytime. And, it's not the same little things -- it's always something a little different. I'd like to be efficient and thorough before he leaves so as to not have to go through this everytime (well, almost everytime).

Subject: Re: Post Technician Routine From: John D. To: Alex Date Posted: Fri, Jun 04, 1999 at 12:10:56 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Actually, I do call the technician back and he does fix the problem. It's just a pain to have to go through this everytime. And, it's not the same little things -- it's always something a little different. I'd like to be efficient and thorough before he leaves so as to not have to go through this everytime (well, almost everytime). --- Do you play the piano with the technician there in the same configuration as you would if the technician was not there. For example, is the music stand on/off, is the lid up/down? You also may want to try out the piano a bit longer before the tech leaves. Hope this helps or gives you some ideas. Later, John D.

Subject: Barratt\Robinson pianos From: e.h. To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 14:05:59 (EDT) Email Address: ehicks@samart.co.th Message: Does anyone have information - positive or negative - about Barratt\Robinson pianos. I recently tried a very good 7 and 1/2 footer and was very impressed. I would like to know more about the reputation of this piano and any information there may be about its manufacuture. Thanks in advance, e.h.

Subject: Tonk piano From: Asko To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 08:40:09 (EDT) Email Address: askot@hotmail.com Message: If you have a piano manufactured by William Tonk & brothers (or you know, that someone has), please email me!

Subject: buzz in string From: wong To: All Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 07:43:28 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I press down a key, before the key actually makes a sound, I hear some buzzing from the string of that key, sounds like the damper is not aligned properly on the strings so that it 'scratches' the strings when lifting. This happens to a few keys on my new Kawai grand. I also hear and feel the action of the wooden part in some keys. Wonder what has happened to the piano. It was fine and sounded beautiful a couple of weeks ago.

Subject: Re: buzz in string From: Cork To: wong Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 15:18:55 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When I press down a key, before the key actually makes a sound, I hear some buzzing from the string of that key, sounds like the damper is not aligned properly on the strings so that it 'scratches' the strings when lifting. This happens to a few keys on my new Kawai grand. I also hear and feel the action of the wooden part in some keys. Wonder what has happened to the piano. It was fine and sounded beautiful a couple of weeks ago. --- A little noise from the dampers lifting is normal; you can generally hear it when you press and hold the damper pedal, lifting all dampers at once. Remember that many of the dampers are wedge-shaped and 'grip' the strings, so they will make a sound when they lift. If one or two notes are significantly louder those dampers may require adjustment. The action should not be making much noise, but you should be getting some tactile feedback from it on all of the notes. I suspect two things are happening. One, the piano is settling in and some things might need to be adjusted. Two, your expectations have been raised by the experience of owning a fine piano, so you are noticing things now that you would have missed in the past. Have the adjustments handled at the next tuning to cover the first, and have patience with the second. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Schiller Piano From: Sam Legard To: All Date Posted: Tues, Jun 01, 1999 at 16:43:37 (EDT) Email Address: dwenis@webtv.net Message: I had an unpright Schiller piano given to me and am unable to find out any information on it. Ay suggestions where I should look?

Subject: Re: Schiller Piano From: eric To: Sam Legard Date Posted: Wed, Jun 02, 1999 at 14:12:26 (EDT) Email Address: ehicks@samart.co.th Message: Check out 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine. He discusses the merits and faults of just about every piano made.

Subject: Trial - Not a Trial - Please Read From: Piano World To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:11:06 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: To all of our valued Forum visitors: No, you will not ever have to pay anything to use this forum. The unregistered/trial message is my fault. I missed the note about renewing our forum, so Paradise-Web (our hosts) put it into 'trial' status. This should all be cleared up in a couple of days (yes, I paid the bill). Guess I had too many things going at once developing Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com and All About Pianos. This Forum is an important part of Piano World and we love having all of you drop by regularly. Sincerely, Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com & All About Pianos http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm http://www.pianosupplies.com/ Piano World www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm

Subject: Melodigrand Pianos From: Ruth Hollifield To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 12:45:55 (EDT) Email Address: wbh@bellsouth.net Message: Does anyone know anything about Melodigrand pianos? I am now the owner of one and am interested in finding out a little history.

Subject: Re: Melodigrand Pianos From: Piano World To: Ruth Hollifield Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:02:04 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: Hi Ruth, There are 2 Melodigrands listed in the 'Pierce Piano Atlas': Melodigrand, name used by Henry & S.G. Lindeman Melodigrand Corp 409 Second Ave New York, NY Short keyboard pianos made by Winer. Became part of Aeolian, Memphis, TN. The pianos had 64 and 73 notes. For more information about pianos: Piano World http://www.pianoworl.com/toc.htm

Subject: settergren From: CODIE5 To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 09:43:57 (EDT) Email Address: codie5@aol.com Message: I RECENTLY ACQUIRED A SETTERGREN BABY GRAND DOES ANY ONE KNOW ABOUT THESE PIANOS.

Subject: Re: settergren From: Piano World To: CODIE5 Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 13:55:40 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: B.K Settergren Co. Bluffton, IN Makers of Settergren Wegman, Malcolm Love, Vough, Chase & Baker, Alexander, Anderson Bros. Settergren came to Bluffton in 1914 with A. J. King Piano Co., 1917 King Company was taken over by H.C. Bay. 1922 formed Settergren. 1935 changed to Estey Piano Co. For more information about pianos: Piano World http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm

Subject: Re: settergren From: CODIE5 To: Piano World Date Posted: Mon, May 31, 1999 at 21:40:34 (EDT) Email Address: CODIE5@AOL.COM Message: WOULD IT BE WORTH IT TO REFURBISH THIS PIANO IT WASNT VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF?

Subject: How Much From: Gary To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 22:08:30 (EDT) Email Address: gman2114@netzero.net Message: How much would a Marshall and Wendell grand player piano sell for? The piano was recently rebuilt. Thank You Gary

Subject: Re: How Much From: Granholm Bros To: Gary Date Posted: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 10:56:05 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: How much would a Marshall and Wendell grand player piano sell for? The piano was recently rebuilt. Thank You --- Many factors are at work here, but any piano of this type is essentially worth whatever someone will pay for it. How long is the piano? What does 'rebuilt' mean--restrung and repinned, with a new pinblock, soundboard, action, and rebuilt player? Or was the piano left alone and only the pneumatic part rebuilt so it will work the old piano parts without wheezing along or stopping altogether? Was the piano refinished, and if so, how well? All these factors, as well as the market in your area, will affect what you would ask for the piano. I'm assuming this is an Ampico reproducing piano. Around here (Oregon), a competently restored reproducing grand can go anywhere from the middle four-figures to the high five-figures for art-case Steinways. It's possible a piano technician or dealer in your area can give you more accurate information after the piano is inspected. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Locating Manufacturer From: Christina Carey To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 16:31:10 (EDT) Email Address: Chrisjc@netins.net Message: Where can I find the name of the manufacturer of my piano. I don't believe the name on the front of the piano is the actual manufacturer.

Subject: Re: Locating Manufacturer From: ampicokid To: Christina Carey Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 17:04:53 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where can I find the name of the manufacturer of my piano. I don't believe the name on the front of the piano is the actual manufacturer. --- what is the name on the front of the piano, Have to start somewhere!

Subject: Petrof problems From: Bobb To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 20:08:17 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: I have been very unhappy so far with my 50' Petrof vertical, even though the Petrof sound in general is very much my style. First, there is a buzzing or vibrating sort of noise on certain notes - not the same notes all the time, rather it moves around. Second, the sound doesn't entirely damp out when you take your hands off the strings - you are left with a dissonant ringing dissonance. Third, the action is awfully firm. Fourth, without a lot of voicing I would not call the sound entirely beautiful. How much of this can be fixed? The tech is coming next week, but I wonder if they will be willing and able to do what it takes to really make this a nice piano.

Subject: Re: Petrof problems From: John D. To: Bobb Date Posted: Thurs, May 27, 1999 at 12:24:43 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bobb, As Mat stated, it sounds like you have run into the Petrof problem that has been mentioned many times in this forum - insufficient factory prep. Although I've never played their uprights, I have always been impressed by Petrof's grands. I also know the dealer by me spends a lot of time prepping them before he puts them on the showroom. Your statement about the action being 'firm' is not totally clear. Do you mean that it feels heavy or that it feels stiff? Subtle, but important differences. I have always found the Petrof grand action to be a bit on the heavy side - compared to a Steinway or a Yamaha. However, I prefer heavier actions. If the action is stiff, that is something else that can and should be fixed. As Mat also stated voicing should make the piano sound very nice. And the damping problem can also be fixed. If Petrof grands are any indication of Petrof uprights, you have a very nice piano - it sounds like it just needs a lot of prep work. I had a buzz in a piano a few years ago. I was convinced it was coming from the piano. However, like your buzz, it would move from note to note. It turned out it was something in the room right near the piano that was causing the buzzing. Once that was moved, the buzzing was gone. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Petrof problems From: bobb To: John D. Date Posted: Fri, May 28, 1999 at 16:42:04 (EDT) Email Address: barsky@umich.edu Message: Mat and John, thanks to both of you for your very helpful response. Bobb

Subject: Re: Petrof problems From: Mat D. To: Bobb Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 23:45:54 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Bobb, first of all, all these things 'can' be fixed. One of the reasons the Petrof piano has such a competetive price point is because there is very little preping of the piano at the factory. This is not neccesarily a bad thing but the prep work is now in the hands of the individual dealer. Let us hope your dealer is a reputable one and is up to the task. Assiming you bought your piano recently, you must INSIST that the dealer take care of ALL these problems; also be sure to insist upon their BEST technician to do the work. The buzzing is very difficult to pinpoint without seeing the piano but the ringing is probably a damper adjustment and the action can be adjusted to your liking. If this is a recent Petrof 50' it probably has Renner action which is excellent. The question of tone quality is a bit more tricky but certainly can be dealt with. The reason I told you to INSIST upon the best technician is for this reason. The process that will probably need to be done is called 'voicing'. This process involves softening, hardening and or shaping the hammers to create a tone that pleases you. Be sure to have a good idea of what you want (in the area of tone) and be able to describe or maybe demonstrate by playing a recording. Naturally your piano is an upright as apposed to a large grand and the technician, no matter how experienced can't perform miracles. Again, if this is a recent purchase & the technician's visit is a warranty or free first visit, be sure to get the best they've got because when YOU are paying for a voicing, it does not come cheap! The dealer owes you this and don't take no for an answer. Good luck! Mat D.

Subject: A 1907 Sohmer player piano From: K Green To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 22:37:43 (EDT) Email Address: kjgreen@mindspring.com Message: I have the opportunity to purchase a 1907 Sohmer player piano without the playing mechanism. Its a beautiful cherry wood and plays well. I am looking for ideas on where to search for the player mechanism or is there some type of modern mechanism. As well, any ideas as to what a fair price for this piano would be. Thanks for your help, Kevin Green

Subject: Re: A 1907 Sohmer player piano From: Granholm Bros To: K Green Date Posted: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 11:07:19 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I have the opportunity to purchase a 1907 Sohmer player piano without the playing mechanism. Its a beautiful cherry wood and plays well. I am looking for ideas on where to search for the player mechanism or is there some type of modern mechanism. As well, any ideas as to what a fair price for this piano would be. Thanks for your help, Kevin Green --- Gutted player pianos tend toward the bottom of the piano value scale, and if the piano is in original condition, I wouldn't pay much for it at all, a couple hundred dollars tops. My guess is you'd search far and wide for a replacement original player stack for this piano, since these were invariably junked after they were taken out of the pianos they were built for. There are a couple of retrofit possibilities. I know of at least one company building pneumatic player kits that can be fitted into the piano. But the deluxe way to go would be to install a Pianodisk system, which would turn your old player into a state-of-the-art electronic reproducing piano. For either of the above options, you would need to get the piano into good working order, and you would need to make a considerable investment in the new parts and installation. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: New Piano Tuning From: Harvey G. To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 18:24:36 (EDT) Email Address: HGuttmann@aol.com Message: I had recently purchased a 5'4' Estonia piano from a very reputable dealer. The first tuning was included in the purchase price of the instrument. After playing the piano, we all noticed an unusual resonance to the high C and the middle register was a bit muted. The technician felt that the resonance was a 'harmonic' that could not be fixed, and he felt strongly that voicing the piano at this point in its life (5 weeks after purchase) was inadvisable. Is he correct or is his behavior related to the fact that the first tuning was free? Should I get an independent tuner as a second opinion?

Subject: Re: New Piano Tuning From: Mat D. To: Harvey G. Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 00:08:14 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: It is common to voice a piano after it has been moved into the environment that it will live in. If you are not happy with the way the piano sounds, I would follow up with the 'reputable' dealer you bought it from. Be sure when you do this that you insist on their best 'Voicing Technician' as this is a critical area. It might be that the tuner who did your free tuning was not really qualified to do a voicing and that is lucky for you because you can ruin a piano quite easily if it is not peformed by a qualified technician. Push the owner a little--after all, you spent your money there and you are not asking for anything out of the ordinary. Good luck, Mat D.

Subject: Re: New Piano Tuning From: Granholm Bros To: Harvey G. Date Posted: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 21:14:11 (EDT) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I had recently purchased a 5'4' Estonia piano from a very reputable dealer. The first tuning was included in the purchase price of the instrument. After playing the piano, we all noticed an unusual resonance to the high C and the middle register was a bit muted. The technician felt that the resonance was a 'harmonic' that could not be fixed, and he felt strongly that voicing the piano at this point in its life (5 weeks after purchase) was inadvisable. Is he correct or is his behavior related to the fact that the first tuning was free? Should I get an independent tuner as a second opinion? --- There's no problem with voicing a piano at any time, and it is a common part of the setup procedure with new pianos. If your dealer is indeed as reputable as you say, I'd first take the problem to them and ask them to send their technician out at their expense to prepare the piano to your liking. If they are unwilling to do so, or if this techncician can't produce results that you like, then go for the second opinion. Keep in mind that every piano has a unique sound, and that a small amount of resonance or after-ring, especially in the undamped high treble, is unavoidable, but it should not be loud or long-lasting. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Giving Away a Piano From: Rose-Anne Richter To: All Date Posted: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 10:39:51 (EDT) Email Address: rori@ms.com Message: Hi, I'm moving, and I can't take my 1925 Vose & Sons baby grand piano with me. It's not in the best shape. I'm willing to give it away to some one who is willing/able to move it. I currently live in the Bronx, NY. Any ideas? (Charities? Schools? Random Pianophiles?) Any info/ideas would be helpful. Thanks

Subject: Re: Giving Away a Piano From: Victor Lee To: Rose-Anne Richter Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 03:58:58 (EDT) Email Address: victor@sqcentre.com.sg Message: Hi, I'm moving, and I can't take my 1925 Vose & Sons baby grand piano with me. It's not in the best shape. I'm willing to give it away to some one who is willing/able to move it. I currently live in the Bronx, NY. Any ideas? (Charities? Schools? Random Pianophiles?) Any info/ideas would be helpful. Thanks --- How bad shape is the piano? What sort of repairs are required to make it playable to a respectable level?

Subject: break in for new pianos From: wong To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 07:36:49 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I tested a Kawai RX2 at a sale. The tone and the touch of that piano was marvellous. Back to the showroom, the dealer shipped another one for me to try. The new one is quite a bit 'inferior' to the one on sale. The tone does not blend so well like the first one and the touch in the high treble is not so responsive. I chose the new one from the box and had the dealer voiced the hammers and done some minor regulations. The piano on sale seems to be used a lot although I was told it's on the floor for 6 months. My 2 questions are: Does a new piano have a break in time for the scales to blend more harmoniously? I thought those Japanese pianos are 'alomost the same' since they are not hand-crafted. Why would the 'big' difference between pianos?

Subject: Re: break in for new pianos From: pianomama To: wong Date Posted: Sat, May 29, 1999 at 16:59:27 (EDT) Email Address: br549ab Message: I really must contribute a comment regarding pianos and the reality of not all pianos that look alike or have the same model numbers sound the same. Pianos that come off of the assembly line in Japan will not all sound the same because of variance's in woods and other componets. Not every piano is made out of the same piece of wood. It only makes sense that since a piano is a percussion instrument that the vibration's of the string will travel down the grains of the soundboard differently per each piece of soundboard.

Subject: Re: break in for new pianos From: Charlie To: wong Date Posted: Tues, May 25, 1999 at 13:00:32 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I am not an expert in this area, but I don't believe there is a 'break-in' period for the tone producing elements of a piano (the strings, the soundboard, and the case). There can be, however, a break-in period for the action as various parts get some initial wear. This could, of course, impact the responsiveness. And after some use, the hammers will pack down, giving a brighter sound. A big difference in tone could be that the new piano was out-of-tune. Tuning has a big impact on tone. Although many mass produced pianos of a given manufacturer are nearly identical out of the box, six months of use is enough to alter the hammers and 'loosen' the action parts. When you said 'I chose the new one from the box' did you mean that you purchased it? If so,I am curious as to why you purchased an instrument other than the one you thought was 'marvelous'. I am also curious as to what you mean by the piano on sale being 'used a lot'.

Subject: Re: break in for new pianos From: wong To: Charlie Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 07:24:26 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Charlie, thanks for the reply. I bought the 'newer' piano. I noticed the hammers on the sale piano already has quite a bit of 'grooves' on them and that the key surfaces are sratched. These things I didn't notice when I first tried the piano out. The new piano I have in my home now sounds quite good. I had it voiced and regulated. Just happened to remember one thing. Several months ago this dealer told me they didn't have an RX2 because it was loaned out to some party. Now I know that was the piano I tried on first but didn't purchase. Why would this dealer list the piano at full MSRP and sell it as a new one? Can they do that to a consumer?

Subject: Re: break in for new pianos From: Charlie To: wong Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 12:51:23 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Charlie, thanks for the reply. I bought the 'newer' piano. I noticed the hammers on the sale piano already has quite a bit of 'grooves' on them and that the key surfaces are sratched. These things I didn't notice when I first tried the piano out. The new piano I have in my home now sounds quite good. I had it voiced and regulated. Just happened to remember one thing. Several months ago this dealer told me they didn't have an RX2 because it was loaned out to some party. Now I know that was the piano I tried on first but didn't purchase. Why would this dealer list the piano at full MSRP and sell it as a new one? Can they do that to a consumer? --- I am glad that you are happy with the piano after voicing. The Kawai's are very nice pianos, to my ears. Regarding the pricing, the dealer can charge whatever he/she wants. The laws governing this prohibit a manufacturer from setting a price that the dealer must use. That's why what used to be called 'List Price' is now 'Manufacturer's Suggested Retail (or Resale) Price'. It allows us as consumers to get lower (and higher) prices depending upon market conditions and the dealers' situations. A double-edged sword, so to speak. What the dealer cannot legally do, is sell a used piano as a new one. That is, essentially, fraud. Anyway, enjoy the piano.

Subject: Re: break in for new pianos From: Charlie To: wong Date Posted: Wed, May 26, 1999 at 12:49:50 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Charlie, thanks for the reply. I bought the 'newer' piano. I noticed the hammers on the sale piano already has quite a bit of 'grooves' on them and that the key surfaces are sratched. These things I didn't notice when I first tried the piano out. The new piano I have in my home now sounds quite good. I had it voiced and regulated. Just happened to remember one thing. Several months ago this dealer told me they didn't have an RX2 because it was loaned out to some party. Now I know that was the piano I tried on first but didn't purchase. Why would this dealer list the piano at full MSRP and sell it as a new one? Can they do that to a consumer? --- I am glad that you are happy with the piano after voicing. The Kawai's are very nice pianos, to my ears. Regarding the pricing, the dealer can charge whatever he/she wants. The laws governing this prohibit a manufacturer from setting a price that the dealer must use. That's why what used to be called 'List Price' is now 'Manufacturer's Suggested Retail (or Resale) Price'. It allows us as consumers to get lower (and higher) prices depending upon market conditions and the dealers' situations. A double-edged sword, so to speak. Anyway, enjoy the piano.

Subject: Refinishing Knabe From: Braunhilda To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 20:14:21 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I have a early 1950's Knabe console that I would like to have re-finished. It is mahogony and I would like for it to be finished in a walnut. I have no idea how much this should cost. Can someone please give me a ballpark figure. I live in the Tampa Bay area. Thanks a lot!

Subject: Re: Refinishing Knabe From: Charlie To: Braunhilda Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 20:20:30 (EDT) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I don't know what it would cost, but here are my thoughts. Bare walnut and mahogany do not look at all alike. Their grain structure (which is the pattern you see) is entirely different. If you are unhappy with the color of the wood, that is something that refinishing can change easily. If you are unhappy with the mahogany grain, then you would actually have to re-cover the wood with walnut veneer. This would be ridiculously expensive because of the extreme amount of labor. You might check in your yellow pages under piano tuning and servicing for a piano technician who rebuilds & restores pianos. He or she would could give you a good estimate, and give you a feeling for what you could accomplish.

Subject: we have to pay? From: wong To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 07:15:00 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading messages from this forum has been a daily ritual to me. So much to know, so much to learn about pianos. Opinion from the experts and others are just valuable. Wouldn't it benefit a lot more consumers if this forum is free? Think I will not be on the subscribers' list after 23 days.

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Piano World To: wong Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:16:18 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: To all of our valued Forum visitors: No, you will not ever have to pay anything to use this forum. The unregistered/trial message is my fault. I missed the note about renewing our forum, so Paradise-Web (our hosts) put it into 'trial' status. This should all be cleared up in a couple of days (yes, I paid the bill). Guess I had too many things going at once developing Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com and All About Pianos. This Forum is an important part of Piano World and we love having all of you drop by regularly. Sincerely, Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com & All About Pianos http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm http://www.pianosupplies.com/

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: John D. To: wong Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 11:04:07 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wong, Reading this forum has also been a part of my daily ritual! I will miss reading all the questions, answers and opinions. However, like you, I won't be on the subscriber list when my 'trial period' is up. It's been a long trial period - almost a year. Well nothing lasts forever. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Piano World To: John D. Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:17:15 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: To all of our valued Forum visitors: No, you will not ever have to pay anything to use this forum. The unregistered/trial message is my fault. I missed the note about renewing our forum, so Paradise-Web (our hosts) put it into 'trial' status. This should all be cleared up in a couple of days (yes, I paid the bill). Guess I had too many things going at once developing Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com and All About Pianos. This Forum is an important part of Piano World and we love having all of you drop by regularly. Sincerely, Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com & All About Pianos http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm http://www.pianosupplies.com/

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Mat D. To: wong Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:47:39 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wong: I totally agree it would serve all of us much better if it were free. Ultimately we could have a thriving forum and whoever runs it could attract advertisers. I perfect example is --timezone.com which is a watch lovers forum and is very much alive and well. Maybe someone who has some authority will surf over to timezone.com and realize the possibilities. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Piano World To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:18:25 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: To all of our valued Forum visitors: No, you will not ever have to pay anything to use this forum. The unregistered/trial message is my fault. I missed the note about renewing our forum, so Paradise-Web (our hosts) put it into 'trial' status. This should all be cleared up in a couple of days (yes, I paid the bill). Guess I had too many things going at once developing Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com and All About Pianos. This Forum is an important part of Piano World and we love having all of you drop by regularly. Sincerely, Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com & All About Pianos http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm http://www.pianosupplies.com/

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Mat D. To: Piano World Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 23:19:33 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Franks, Thanks for clearing that up. Looking forward to more q&a on the piano forum. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Seth To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 11:34:51 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The people who use this forum do not have to pay. Piano World sponsers this and are going to pay the bill. So enjoy!!

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Piano World To: Seth Date Posted: Sun, May 30, 1999 at 14:19:15 (EDT) Email Address: webmaster@pianoworld.com Message: To all of our valued Forum visitors: No, you will not ever have to pay anything to use this forum. The unregistered/trial message is my fault. I missed the note about renewing our forum, so Paradise-Web (our hosts) put it into 'trial' status. This should all be cleared up in a couple of days (yes, I paid the bill). Guess I had too many things going at once developing Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com and All About Pianos. This Forum is an important part of Piano World and we love having all of you drop by regularly. Sincerely, Frank Baxter Host/Webmaster Piano World, Piano Help, PianoSupplies.com & All About Pianos http://www.pianoworld.com/toc.htm http://www.pianosupplies.com/

Subject: Re: we have to pay? From: Mat D. To: Seth Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 17:42:57 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Thanks for the good news Seth! I only discovered this forum 7-8 days ago and already I've had some interesting conversations. Thanks all, keep in touch. Mat D.

Subject: STUARCK PIANO From: GARY HUMPHREYS To: All Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 00:58:39 (EDT) Email Address: guns@delrio.com Message: Can anyone tell me about a Stork, Stuark or Stuarch piano. They are made in Chiago ill.

Subject: Softening piano sound From: Charles McElmurry To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 20, 1999 at 21:49:16 (EDT) Email Address: chuckmac@sbceo.k12.ca.us Message: How can I tone down the sound on an upright piano? It is too loud and I don't want to hold the soft pedal down all the time. It has new hammers. What can I do to soften the sound?

Subject: Softening piano sound From: Charles McElmurry To: All Date Posted: Thurs, May 20, 1999 at 21:47:35 (EDT) Email Address: chuckmac@sbceo.k12.ca.us Message: How can I tone down the sound on an upright piano? It is too loud and I don't want to hold the soft pedal down all the time. It has new hammers. What can I do to soften the sound?

Subject: Re: Softening piano sound From: Mat D. To: Charles McElmurry Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:58:03 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Wong: I'll try that again! The process is called 'voicing' and should only be performed be a qualified tech! First the piano will be tuned (possibly the action will need to be regulated--for even response. Without this how can you acheive your best tone predictably) then the hammers will probably be shaped & softened with specially designed 'voicing needles'. Expect to spend at least $200 --- possibly up to $500 or more. It's a big job. Best of luck! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Softening piano sound From: Crandall To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 11:50:09 (EDT) Email Address: cbchow@usa.net Message: It's a bit ambiguous what is meant by 'softening' of the piano sound. It could mean either the tone is too bright or sharp, or the volume is too loud. If it is a tonal issue, then voicing is the way to go. A technician can soften the hammers and mellow out the tone of the piano. As a side effect, the piano's volume may be slightly quieter when voiced more mellow. If you like the tone the way it is, then don't get it voiced! Instead, buy foam baffles or a blanket for your piano. Check out 'www.perfectlygrand.com/baffles.html' for a description (they show the ones for grand pianos--I know there are ones for uprights too). By the way, Mat, if you accidentally send a blank reply, you can edit the message by selecting your message and clicking on the '(edit this message)' link rather than needing to send another one.

Subject: Re: Softening piano sound From: John D. To: Crandall Date Posted: Sat, May 22, 1999 at 01:46:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Crandall is right and I should not have been so quick to suggest voicing. I didn't know there were foam baffles or blankets for pianos. Ironically, my parent's have an upright that I also play with the soft-pedal down all the time. Their piano is definitely in need of voicing (among other things) which may help some with the volume issue, but probably wouldn't go all the way to lowering the volume enough.

Subject: Re: Softening piano sound From: Mat D. To: John D. Date Posted: Mon, May 24, 1999 at 08:41:21 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: It seems to me if your piano needs some sort of artificial sound 'changing' application, there is something wrong. Without knowing this particular piano it is impossible to diagnose for absolute sure, however unless you have a problem with apartment neighbors or late night practice, you have a problem with the piano. Foam acoustic treatment will no doubt be cheaper but if your piano is too loud at normal playing levels there is a problem with the piano and foam is only a mask. Maybe I'm too much of a perfectionist and can't stand the thought of some artificial blanketing of what should be a beautiful sound --- isn't that the idea--beautiful sound. You might be better off with a digital piano where you have total control of the volume. I am a music producer and use these as well, but there aint nothin' like the real 'unblanketed' thing! Just my opinion-- Mat D.

Subject: Re: Softening piano sound From: Mat D. To: Charles McElmurry Date Posted: Fri, May 21, 1999 at 09:52:50 (EDT) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message:

Subject: Re: Softening piano sound From: John D. To: Charles McElmurry Date Posted: Thurs, May 20, 1999 at 21:57:54 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Charles, If by 'softening the sound' you are indicating that the piano sounds too harsh or bright, the hammers can be needled to take off the 'edge'. Just don't attempt this yourself - make sure you hire a reputable tech for the job. Later, John D.

Subject: antique piano From: dorene phearson To: All Date Posted: Wed, May 19, 1999 at 09:59:02 (EDT) Email Address: buddjy97@aol.com Message: i have a piano made in sweden there is a stamp on the front that says 'lundholm' also has appeared at sometime at the rockefeller center. on the front of the piano is the number 7244. looking for infor on value and maker.

Subject: Steinway From: Putz To: All Date Posted: Tues, May 18, 1999 at 14:10:25 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Is this of any interest to the techs in here? http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=105689259

Subject: Gordon & Son From: Ron Gallagher To: All Date Posted: Sun, May 16, 1999 at 22:45:01 (EDT) Email Address: ron.and.katy@worldnet.att.net Message: I have a 1913 Gordon & Son 'Orchestral Grand' upright piano. It has a full rich sound. I'm interested in any history or comments about the maker or style.

Subject: Lester Upright From: piano man To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 23:45:57 (EDT) Email Address: corks6@cs.com Message: Looking for info on a Lester Upright Piano? Is it worth purchasing? Approx age is 60-70yrs old, Oak wood, appears in good/fair condition. If parts needed can they be obtained, since mfr closed in 1960? Some keys chipped? Left pedal loose. Thanks for any info.

Subject: Charles Walter grands From: Axel To: All Date Posted: Sat, May 15, 1999 at 20:00:12 (EDT) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anyone out there have any experience or heard anything about the Charles Walter grand pianos? I played one today and liked it, but don't know much about them other than the fact that they only started making grands about four years ago. Any assistance would be appreciated.