Subject: Petrof IV 5' 8' Grand From: jodi To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:00:42 (EST) Email Address: jodi@radon.chem.uidaho.edu Message: I have several questions that I hope some of you on this page can answer for me! I am looking at a new Petrof IV (5' 8') Grand (Mahogany Case). The dealer has said he can sell it to me for $13,900 because the case has two defects (actually one defect and one supposably fixable ding). There is a thumbprint sized dent on the edge of the top (on the long straight side), and what looks like a defect in the wood on the outside of the case - it looks like a chunk of wood was taken out of the side before it was finished, then filled with some more wood and then sealed with polyurethane, or whatever it is they finish the wood with. Anyway, the dent is not very visible, but the defect is. Here is my first question: In 'The Piano Book', Mr. Fine says that the Petrof will sometimes be discounted up to 25% of its list price ($18,380 in the 98-99 supplement) which puts this piano at $13,785. I do not care nearly as much about the outside of the piano as I do how it plays, but do you think that $13,900 is a fair price for this piano, or should I be asking for a lower price because of the defects in the case? Secondly, is it appropriate/necessary for me to ask to hire an outside technician to check this piano over, since Mr Fine also says that these pianos sometimes arrive in 'rough condition' - This piano seemed to 'jiggle' a little more when played vigorously than the Yamaha C2 next to it. (But it sure has a beautiful sound!) The piano is for sale in a very big music store - how would I even go about finding a technician that I know would be working for me? And finally, is it silly for me to buy a piano in DRY Colorado and move it to not quite as dry Idaho in the Spring? Not only because of the climate change, but the warrenty? The prices and selection seem a little better here than they did in Spokane, WA. Thanks for any advice you can offer!

Subject: Re: Petrof IV 5' 8' Grand From: Mat D. To: jodi Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 23:42:27 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Jodi, The petrof IV is a very nice instrument , but a lot depends on how in-love you are with this particular one. If the sound and action are great, you should consider buying this piano in spite of the furniture flaws. However, i would definately push harder on the price and get a bigger discount (I got scolded in a previous post far suggesting this, but I don't care). If you strike a reasonable deal for the piano, I would then take one last step of bringing a technician in for his opinion. This is an important step, especially since there are a couple of furniture flaws which may indicate lack of proper care; the technician will be able to advise you about the physical stability (you mentioned a 'jiggle')--this is very important in an instrument of this size; you need the keybourd to be firm and stable under your fingers or it will affect your performance. If you decide you love the piano, go back in and make a lower offer--don't be embarassed, all the dealer can do is say no to that offer, you already know you've got your current pricing, go for it! Let us know how you make out.

Subject: Flooring From: Ben To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 23:42:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm thinking of renovating a room specially for putting my piano in it.I intend to soundproof the room .(3.5m by 3.5m) but i don't know what type of flooring should i use.Any thoughts about floorings to be used?I heard that parquet floorings are the best.What about carpeting the room? Thank you

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Charlie To: Ben Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:16:05 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: So much depends on other things that this question is difficult to answer, but here are my thoughts. This room is small (I would say too small for a piano), and it will be difficult to get good acoustics in it. There is no space for the sound to develop. If you use parquet flooring you may find you get too much reflection in the midrange and especially the treble, and the piano may sound harsh. What is underneath the floor? If it is concrete slab, that will be good for the bass tones, as no matter what you put on top of it, the concrete will reflect the bass tones which is good. If you are on a crawl space, I suggest laying down a concrete board layer to help the bass, and to provide a very stable surface so the piano is on a level surface. If the treble is too bright, carpet would help. Best of luck, Charlie How do you intend to sound proof the room?

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Jeanne To: Ben Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 20:12:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I asked a similar question about flooring in a string that began on November 27. Look back in the older messages or do a search on 'flooring' and you will see this. The main recommendation was that wood floor is preferable to carpet.

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Mat D. To: Jeanne Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 22:00:31 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Wood flooring can be very good for a piano room, but you said in your post that you want to soundproof your room--this may make soundproofing that much more difficult as wood will make the piano sound louder than carpeting. Also, the room is rather small and you may not want the acoustics that 'live' for you piano. It will somewhat depend on the size of your piano. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Ben To: Mat D. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 23:18:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Now, I don't think that it is feasible anymore to create a piano room.Should i place my piano in the family room? The height from floor to ceiling is 3.5m.It has marble flooring and concrete walls.My contractor doing up my piano room says that the thickness of the windows plays a part in the sound being produced by the piano.Is this true? On an entirely different matter,does anyone know of the brand 'FEURICH?

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Mat D. To: Ben Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 22:58:32 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Wow, marble & concrete --- I'm afraid this will be a very 'live' & 'LOUD' piano room; I'm not sure what the thickness of the windows has to do with piano tone. I have played Feurich pianos. I believe they are made by Schimmel (maybe Bechstein). They are very nice pianos if you are looking for the 'European' voicing --- very similar to Schimmel.

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Ben To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:45:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Mat D. I've told my contractor to start work by doing some decorations like wooden cornices,polishing the marble, and giving the wall a new coat of paint. Do you have any idea what is the best colour that goes with high-polished black? Btw, when you play the piano,Do you open the lid or not?Thanks Mat d. You've been a great help here.

Subject: Re: Flooring From: Mat D. To: Ben Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 23:30:57 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Ben, I'm sorry, but decorating is not really my forte; my wife does all of that. i play the piano with differesnt lid heights. if I am practicing, i keep lid closed and if I am playing duet (say w/cello) I put up the short stick and on occasion, I allow myself the pleasure of the full stick. The reason I try to discipline myself away from full stick all the time is so I don't get spoiled, when I do go to the open lid it is a wonderful sound and I fall in love with my piano all over again --- it kind of keeps it 'fresh' so to speak. Best of luck to you, Mat D.

Subject: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Kirk To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 16:22:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading through queries and responses recently I've learned that one person purchased an M&H BB for $31K and that another bought an M&H A for $26K. I've priced M&H grands and know that the list prices are much higher than these. Is it customary for M&H dealers to discount to this extent?

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Lucky Chuck To: Kirk Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:33:23 (EST) Email Address: luckychuck@pacbell.net Message: Reading through queries and responses recently I've learned that one person purchased an M&H BB for $31K and that another bought an M&H A for $26K. I've priced M&H grands and know that the list prices are much higher than these. Is it customary for M&H dealers to discount to this extent? --- There are only a few hundred M&H BB's produced each year. Anyone who says they paid less than $40,000 is stretching the truth because they feel the need to impress everyone with their negotiating skills. Dealer's cost on a M&H BB is $36,750. Why would he sell for less than his cost? If you can buy a M&H BB for $30,000, let me know where and I will purchase a dozen so that I can turn around and sell them for a huge profit, even if I sell them as used.

Subject: FYI Lucky Chuck...more... From: Mat D. To: Lucky Chuck Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 23:20:44 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Chuck, I'm sorry, you are mistaken!!! I bought a BB last year and at least one other piano forumner bought a BB just a couple months ago for under 32k. I can't imagine why I would want to lie about something like that. BTW, I don't think anyone here is trying to impress anyone else, I am trying to share my good fortune so that I might inspire others to stretch a little and get a fine piano --- -that's why we are all here. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Lucky Chuck To: Kirk Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:26:28 (EST) Email Address: luckychuck@pacbell.net Message: Reading through queries and responses recently I've learned that one person purchased an M&H BB for $31K and that another bought an M&H A for $26K. I've priced M&H grands and know that the list prices are much higher than these. Is it customary for M&H dealers to discount to this extent? ---

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Rich To: Kirk Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 11:11:48 (EST) Email Address: Ricdfenbek@aol.com Message: Both thoses prices you quoted seem really low to me. Especially the BB. Generally speaking for other than Steinways discounts of 25% or more are common for new pianos. If anyone was selling a new Mason & Hamlin BB for 31K buy it!

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Mat D. To: Rich Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 14:10:24 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: The prices you quote are accurate. I purchased a M&H BB last September for $31K and a fellow 'PianoForumner' also bought one recently for about $500 more (Upon my urging him to 'drive a hard bargain'--he did & won!). I don't think these prices are customary but if you are serious and ready to put your money down, it is possible as you can see. I personally just made my final offer to the M&H dealer because I already had a Petrof II (7'9') ready for delivery for that price. I liked the Mason & Hamlin more, so I made my offer --- the dealer accepted & I'm a happy guy! Best of luck. Don't be embarrased to make an offer, it can't kill you. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Rich To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 22:12:56 (EST) Email Address: Ricdfenbek@aol.com Message: Mat, The two M&H dealers I've visited were Faust/Harrison Pianos in NYC and Oren Music here in the Washington DC area. Faust prices for an A were $31,500 and around $43,000 for the BB (don't remember eactly). Oren Music was even higher. Since I was only window shopping I did not question the prices. The M&H A I played was an amazing instrument! I did not play the BB too much since I don't think I have room for it, but I would take that any day over a Steinway B. Your a lucky guy. Might I ask where you purchased yours?

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Mat D. To: Rich Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 22:52:56 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Rich, why don't you e-mail me for more of the details, I'd be happy to share them with you. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Joy To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 14:30:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: It might help to sit with the dealer at his desk,and have your checkbook open and ready, pen-in-hand --- but don't write the amount yet. This worked when I bargained for my car. Might work for pianos. ;-) Good luck!

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: antmaril@aol.com To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 22:51:30 (EST) Email Address: Mat D. Message: Joy, That is exactly what I did. I negotiated in his office--away from the instrument; I was serious and he knew it. It never hurts to try. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin grands From: Joy To: antmaril@aol.com Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 23:43:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Yeah! :-D

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Joy To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:28:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you do go this route, watch for the following: SCENE ONE: Salesman: 'I'll call the warehouse and see if we have any more of that model. [dials number. Pause]. Oh. It's the last one. Hmmm...[pause] I see'[hangs up].TO YOU: 'Well, I'm afraid the one on the floor is the last one.'. What's Really Happening: There's no one at the other end of that conversation. This is an old trick, used by car AND piano sales people. SCENE TWO: Salesman: 'I'll go ask the store manager if I can give you that price'.[He gets up and leaves,as you sit alone and wait in his office] What's Really Happening: He went into another empty office, and waits about 60 seconds, timing it, before he returns with his piddly counter-offer. Didn't speak to anyone --- --- --- --- - I have a friend who used to sell pianos. Said he was trained to do these little acts. To his credit, he quit his job. Moral: Buyer beware, hoho. Good luck. ;-)

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: JK To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 08:05:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, I have been selling pianos for 21 years.I have had to weed through many 'gimicks' by former employers.everything from the 'Ball bat over the head' turnover,to the dreaded University Sale,to the 'I don't know if I can but if i could would you' close.I have survived by treating my customers the way I would like to be treated. I have lost many deals to gimicks.You can't sell everyone.There are too many variables from 'I want my tuner to look at it' to 'I want my teacher to play it' to 'I've got a better price from another dealer'.There are tuners on the take, teachers on the take, and 'Shark' salespeople.I find my customer's needs, I know my product, I make my presntation, and I ask for the sale. That's my job. You win some you lose some but you keep on selling. There are two sides to every coin Joy. The customer also has some pretty good 'Tricks' as well. Jim;)

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Bruce To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 08:32:49 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Joy: I've been selling pianos for about 5 months and allow me to to expain the situation where I work. This dealership will NOT keep more than one model number on the floor or in stock. If the model is sold, another one will be ordered. There are certain margins that must be maintained (read Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book'), and if an offer comes across below that margin, I DO have to ask my store manager. So I believe it is unfair of you to pretend you understand the retail piano business. Common sense should tell you, no matter what you are buying retail; the objective is to keep your margins up. I've heard that in 'Saturn Dealerships', one pays the sticker price and haggling is not allowed, until that day arrives in the piano business.....have you ever purchased a house? Bruce

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Mike P. To: Bruce Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 13:55:31 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: It sounds from this and other posts that Bruce is trying to do things right. I would encourage him to keep following this path because over time he will build up loyal customers and a strong reputation. At the same time I've had enough experience in my life to realize that many sales people and a lot of managers do not understand this - leading to trouble for everybody. A couple of personal experiences. I once knew a computer salesman who stuttered horribly. It was difficult to talk to him because of his speach problems. But anytime you asked him a question he either gave a correct answer or got back within a day with the correct answer. This beat hands down the other sales reps I knew at that time who either refused to return calls from small accounts, gave incorrect information from the top of their heads, or tried to sell systems that didn't meet the customer's stated needs. I was standing next to two of these sales reps at a trade conference when the stuttering salesman got a reward for leading sales producer. One commented to the other 'HE won the award! He can't even TALK right!! He can't get close to the buyer THAT way. It must have been rigged somehow. It's NOT fair.' Neither realized that their own behavior cost them customers. I also worked for a short time at a retail store where there was a longtime salesman. One day he boasted about selling a clearanced big screen TV at well above the listed price to an old lady who couldn't read the sticker. He also boasted about adding service contracts when he thought the customer wouldn't understand or notice. When the manager backed him up, I quit. Six months later the store was out of business.

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Joy To: Mike P. Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 22:03:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just goes to show what goes around comes around -- 'tho it's too bad it takes way too long sometimes. But it does happen! Mike P. says: 'It sounds from this and other posts that Bruce is trying to do things right. I would encourage him to keep following this path because over time he will build up loyal customers and a strong reputation'.Stay on that path, Bruce! We need more sales types like you.

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Joy To: Mike P. Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 22:01:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Joy To: Bruce Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 17:54:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bruce: Sorry if I offended you. I certainly didn't mean to imply I was an expert on the business of selling pianos. Rather, I was simply sharing what one person who used to sell pianos told me. It's what HIS sales manager told him to do. These machinations do occur, and I think it's good to let people know about them. It's good for you to speak up and give your own perspective. I remember YOU were the one who asked questions on this forum about sales techniques, upong becoming a piano salesman yourself many postings ago. Not many would be that conscientious, and that is to your credit. I am not against anyone who legitimately strives to make money to make a living. And OF COURSE sales margins need to be met against how long that piano has been sitting on the sales floor. In answer to your last question: I have bought 5 houses over the years -- 2 of which were owner-occupied. Sorry if my previous posting came off as facetious.

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Bruce To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 22:43:16 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Joy: i guess I shouldn't be so sensitive, but I am. I'm trying to do the best job I can, but the public has such a bad and negative attitude about piano salespersons, that I guess I'm trying to do anything I can to improve relations with the buying public...and reading your comment..well, I had to respond...thanks for remembering my previous posts, and kind words....just don't paint us all with the same brush...regards Bruce:-)

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Mat D. To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 20:27:13 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Joy & Bruce, In the case of Mason & Hamlin pianos, this discussion is somewhat of a moot point because there are so few new Mason & Hamlins to be had that-what you see is what you get --- as it should be with piano buying--there's no room for sales 'game playing' so to speak. Let's just say that competition is a good thing and when the buyer is armed with more information, it is inevitable. I must say that my own experience with my local Mason & Hamlin dealer (Evola Music--bloomfield Hills, MI) was a very positive one. Jim, the owner was very straight forward and honest, everything went as he promised, including a follow-up voicing problem I had one year after my purchase; Jim took care of all expenses and provided me with the service of the best piano technician in the area who visited my piano on at least 6-7 occasions--everything is perfect now and I will always send new customers to Evola as well as the wonderful Mason & Hamlin people. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: David Burton To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 08:21:16 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Am I being premature in thinking that the internet may make a difference to how pianos are retailed in the future and to whom? It seems to me that we may be able to make a difference. Check out my website at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/

Subject: Re: sales tricks From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 10:27:10 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, you are absolutely correct! --- Freedom of information is a wonderful thing. BTW, I am a watch collector and the internet has opened up sources for some unbelievable pricing. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Petrof IV 5' 8' Grand From: jodi To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:00:35 (EST) Email Address: jodi@radon.chem.uidaho.edu Message: I have several questions that I hope some of you on this page can answer for me! I am looking at a new Petrof IV (5' 8') Grand (Mahogany Case). The dealer has said he can sell it to me for $13,900 because the case has two defects (actually one defect and one supposably fixable ding). There is a thumbprint sized dent on the edge of the top (on the long straight side), and what looks like a defect in the wood on the outside of the case - it looks like a chunk of wood was taken out of the side before it was finished, then filled with some more wood and then sealed with polyurethane, or whatever it is they finish the wood with. Anyway, the dent is not very visible, but the defect is. Here is my first question: In 'The Piano Book', Mr. Fine says that the Petrof will sometimes be discounted up to 25% of its list price ($18,380 in the 98-99 supplement) which puts this piano at $13,785. I do not care nearly as much about the outside of the piano as I do how it plays, but do you think that $13,900 is a fair price for this piano, or should I be asking for a lower price because of the defects in the case? Secondly, is it appropriate/necessary for me to ask to hire an outside technician to check this piano over, since Mr Fine also says that these pianos sometimes arrive in 'rough condition' - This piano seemed to 'jiggle' a little more when played vigorously than the Yamaha C2 next to it. (But it sure has a beautiful sound!) The piano is for sale in a very big music store - how would I even go about finding a technician that I know would be working for me? And finally, is it silly for me to buy a piano in DRY Colorado and move it to not quite as dry Idaho in the Spring? Not only because of the climate change, but the warrenty? The prices and selection seem a little better here than they did in Spokane, WA. Thanks for any advice you can offer!

Subject: Grand Brand Piano From: Chris To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 19:14:20 (EST) Email Address: chfoster@aol.com Message: I am thinking about purchasing a Grand Spinet piano, Made in 1994, I think? The serial number is 25500. The current owner wants $700 is this a good deal. This piano will be used to teach my Wife and childen how to pay. Noone has ever played before.

Subject: Re: Grand Brand Piano From: Granholm Bros To: Chris Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:25:08 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I am thinking about purchasing a Grand Spinet piano, Made in 1994, I think? The serial number is 25500. The current owner wants $700 is this a good deal. This piano will be used to teach my Wife and childen how to pay. Noone has ever played before. --- Chris, we can't do this on the internet. There would be no way for me to tell you accurately if this piano is a good deal without my inspecting it. It would be the same as asking on the internet for advice about a used car you're looking at and considering buying, rather than taking the car to a good mechanic. Call a local piano technician to look the piano over and advise you. Here's some additional information, copied from an earlier post, that may be of help to you: Some rules of thumb: 1. A student piano need not be the best piano in the world, but it must tune reliably and be stable at standard pitch, and it must be in good repair and properly regulated. You'll defeat your purpose if you buy a cheap junky garage-sale piano for student use, because the piano's poor performance and lousy sound will frustrate your students and they will quit. 2. Buy the biggest piano your budget will allow. Assuming overall initial quality to be about the same, a 40-inch console piano is better than a spinet, and a 48-inch studio piano is much better than both of the others. A bigger piano plays better, sounds better, tunes better, and will meet your musical needs for a longer time if your kids continue with the instrument. 3. Be patient in your search, and always, always consult with a piano technician when looking for a used piano. The small amount you spend for professional advice will pay big dividends when you finally write the check, and hopefully the tech can help you find a piano you and your children can enjoy for many years. 4. Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', available elsewhere on this site, is a great resource for people who are clueless about pianos. It may also be available in your public library. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: any idea From: ksewell To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:04:17 (EST) Email Address: kshivers@mspring.com Message: I have inherited a piano from my great grandmother. The only marks i can read are words carved into the wood . ' Werner Piano Co. 1800' Chicago ILLnoise. Does anybody have an idea of the company or the exact year of the era?

Subject: Wulitzer From: pleasant To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 00:48:04 (EST) Email Address: mark.pleasant@geis.ge.com Message: I have a Wurlitzer does not play well, the felt does not lift of the string properly. I've been told that the brackets swelled and need new ones. I been told Baldwin now has the warrenty. I want to find out if the replacement of the brackets and the brackets them selves are under the warrenty. Does replacing them require the piano to be regulated. Serial number of Wurlitzer #2051791

Subject: Re: Wulitzer From: Granholm Bros To: pleasant Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:03:49 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I have a Wurlitzer does not play well, the felt does not lift of the string properly. I've been told that the brackets swelled and need new ones. I been told Baldwin now has the warrenty. I want to find out if the replacement of the brackets and the brackets them selves are under the warrenty. Does replacing them require the piano to be regulated. Serial number of Wurlitzer #2051791 --- The serial number you quoted puts the piano's build date at 1988. Assuming a 10-year warranty, you're likely out of luck on getting free replacement of the action brackets. If you bought the piano new, and if the dealer who sold it to you is nearby, you might be able to talk (whine) to the dealer and get at least partial help with the job. I doubt Baldwin will be sympathetic, because this piano was built before they acquired the Wurlitzer name. I would expect to have to do at least some partial action regulation when doing this job. A piano of this age would most likely need regulating anyway. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: What's your favorite Christmas song? From: John D. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 15:54:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A bit off the topic of this piano forum, but I was just curious as to what people's favorite Christmas song is. Mine is 'Merry Christmas Darling' by (dare I say who) 'The Carpenters' - anyone know that one? And a very close second is 'White Christmas'. Post a vote now! Happy Holidays, John D.

Subject: Favorite Christmas song/question for Mark: From: John D. To: John D. Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:05:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks to all who responded. It's nice to hear so many people know of my all time favorite Christmas song! Question for Mark: I have heard jazz arrangements of The Christmas Song, but have never heard Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas done in a jazz style. Would you care to publish the chords? Thanks, John D.

Subject: Re: What's your favorite Christmas song? From: Bruce To: John D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 23:08:25 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Yes John!...Richard Carpenter and Frank pooler composition!!..it's the best new standard that I have heard since the early 70's. Karen had the most beautiful alto voice I have ever heard. My top 3. 1. 'Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas'...yes Mark I agree! 2. 'I'll Be Home For Christmas' 3. 'Merry Christmas Darling'....I would have to put Karen's version of Prelude in C by Bach 'Ave Maria'...somewhere, although can't really classify this as a Christmas song...probably a tune I can never get tired of hearing...Bach's melody is just intoxicating...and I'm in a trance ever time i hear it!!!....Bruce:-)

Subject: Re: What's your favorite Christmas song? From: Mark Mandell To: John D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:45:33 (EST) Email Address: msmandl@att.net Message: Being the jazz player I am(though hasten to add it's strictly a hobby as I'm first and foremost a tech), my two favorites for many years now have been 'The Christmas Song' and 'Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas'. They both lend themselves to great jazz chordal arrangements. I made a medley of the two since I play them in the key of E flat.

Subject: Re: What's your favorite Christmas song? From: Bunny To: John D. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:50:40 (EST) Email Address: lelacey@hotmail.com Message:

Subject: Re: What's your favorite Christmas song? From: Bunny To: Bunny Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:53:06 (EST) Email Address: lelacey@hotmail.com Message: It's my favorite as well. I grew up listening to the Carpenters and I can still sing evry song by heart!!!

Subject: Re: What's your favorite Christmas song? From: Joy To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 21:02:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Any of Vince Guaraldi's piano music from 'A Charlie Brown Christmas' (with the 'Linus and Lucy' theme played in-between), followed by John Lennon's 'And So This is Christmas'. Happy Holidays Happy Kwaanza Happy Hanukah Happy New Century, Joy

Subject: Bass bridge buzzing From: J Campbell To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:00:51 (EST) Email Address: jcampbell@mofo.com Message: Just bought a new Yamaha C-3, which is great. It hasn't had its first 'in-home' voicing or tuning yet. The first two notes below the bass bridge (isn't that what the point where the strings cross over), A and Bb, have a buzzing sound, not bad but definitely a tone change from the treble stringing and distinct from the lower bass notes as well. I remember reading that this isn't uncommon and that it can be corrected, but I bet this group has some ideas I can use when discussing this with the piano technician who will be there some time after the new year to tune and voice the piano. Thanks.

Subject: Did I get a Lemon? From: Joan To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:19:32 (EST) Email Address: JMANNING14@aol.com Message: When I was a kid I played a Knabe that was probably built around 1930. We called it an upright grand, and it was a wonderful instrument. Sorry to say, I sold it, so when I bought another piano two years ago I snapped up the first Knabe I saw. Big mistake! It has two habits I hate. Every now and then one of the keys won't sound. There are times when I have to strike it two or three times to get it to sound. My technician was familiar with this complaint and was easily able to reproduce it but he didn't consider it a problem. He suggested I change my playing to accomodate it. I have adjusted to some extent, but it still happens for no reason that I can discover. The second bad habit of this Knabe is in the strings the octave below middle C. They tend to buzz with a nasty metallic sound. If I am doing a repeated figure in the left hand, one of the notes will sound like it's badly out of tune. The technician has adjusted for this, but the problem keeps returning. I live in a dry climate, and I know this has an effect on pianos, but this one is less than five years old and has not been abused. Any suggestions?

Subject: Re: Did I get a Lemon? From: Andrew To: Joan Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 08:58:34 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Joan, At least you found this board with all these helpers. How about getting rid of your Knabe and get something else? I'm not kidding. If it's economically feasible you might want to do just that. Andrew

Subject: Re: Did I get a Lemon? From: Granholm Bros To: Joan Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 23:35:04 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: When I was a kid I played a Knabe that was probably built around 1930. We called it an upright grand, and it was a wonderful instrument. Sorry to say, I sold it, so when I bought another piano two years ago I snapped up the first Knabe I saw. Big mistake! It has two habits I hate. Every now and then one of the keys won't sound. There are times when I have to strike it two or three times to get it to sound. My technician was familiar with this complaint and was easily able to reproduce it but he didn't consider it a problem. He suggested I change my playing to accomodate it. I have adjusted to some extent, but it still happens for no reason that I can discover. The second bad habit of this Knabe is in the strings the octave below middle C. They tend to buzz with a nasty metallic sound. If I am doing a repeated figure in the left hand, one of the notes will sound like it's badly out of tune. The technician has adjusted for this, but the problem keeps returning. I live in a dry climate, and I know this has an effect on pianos, but this one is less than five years old and has not been abused. Any suggestions? --- I'll agree with Mr. Lewis's comments about Knabe--Other than the decal on the fallboard, the piano you bought is no relation to the one you learned on, which I'll bet was built earlier than 1930. I'm a little uncomfortable with your tech telling you to change how you play in order to deal with a problem that sounds like it should have been corrected by him. If there's only one key producing the problem, then it's not a question of your technique, and maybe you should be looking for another piano technician. If you find one, mention the bass string problem too. You may not have as good a piano as your first one, but the right tech might be able to improve your situation considerably. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Did I get a Lemon? From: SAM LEWIS PIANO To: Joan Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 21:13:50 (EST) Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com Message: Joan- the Knabe you remember as a child and the new one are related in name only. That great old name has been bought and sold so many times theres no telling what you've really purchased. It's hard to diagnose without seeing, but I cant believe that your repetition problem cant be solved (unless you are not letting the key fully return before striking again). The lousy sounding bass is pretty typical of the post 1950s Knabes, and what you describe can also be due to the copper windings loosening. Sorry! Try Yamaha, Kawai, Baldwin, Walter next time. NEVER EVER buy any piano because of its name.....Sam

Subject: Re: Did I get a Lemon? From: Rich To: SAM LEWIS PIANO Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 11:24:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joan, My guess is that a good piano tech, probably different than the one you have now, can correct the problems you've encountered. Thats the good news. The bad news is that your Knabe will never sound as good as the Knabes of old which have been well maintained or properly rebuilt.

Subject: Please Advise From: Raff To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 11:17:10 (EST) Email Address: patfiume@hotmail.com Message: Selling my mother-in-laws 1969 Kimball 41 inch Country French Crest Artist Console. (Model 4183) She kept it in immaculate condition. I believe it has ivory keys and she wants to sell it with its humidifier and special light. Please advise on what I can sell it for and how good of a piano this type is. Thanks for the Help and Happy Holidays! raff

Subject: LaPetite by Kimball From: sbull39 To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:12:29 (EST) Email Address: sbull39@aol.com Message: Does anyone know how much a LaPetite Baby Grand piano about 12 years old in excellent condition is worth. Please help! sbull39@aol..com Any info would be appreciated. Thanks

Subject: Re: LaPetite by Kimball From: JK To: sbull39 Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 08:20:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: sbull39, Ah yes,the Lapetite by Kimball.Measuring in at 4'5' had to be the worst excuse for a piano I have ever seen. Don't even think about it.As the clerk says at the deli in the grocery store........NEXT! JK

Subject: Re: LaPetite by Kimball From: Joy To: sbull39 Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 01:11:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The La Petite by Kimball is the sub-compact of all baby grands -- like the old VW Beetle. Not only is its overall length shorter than the standard baby grand. Even the keys are a tad smaller proportionally -- you'd notice this in a showroom next to other pianos. We came across 2 of these when my son and I began piano shopping. From what I've heard from piano salespeople, techs (and 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine) the La Petite was designed for those who always craved having a baby grand, only at a low price. It has a lovely cabinet -- Kimball was known for their fine cabinetry. Very nice-looking with a black satin finish. But it's a weak, awful- sounding instrument. My piano tech calls it the quintessential PSO -- 'Piano-Shaped Object'. A nightmare to work on besides. Used La Petites go for $3000-4000 in my area (southern CA). If you want a piano that truly makes lovely music, go for studio upright. You can get a much-better quality used instrument for the same price. Read as many of the threads on this forum as you can. Choose 'Entire Message List'. You find the general recommendation is not to go less than 5'8' on a grand, and not less than 48' on a vertical. The La Petite GRAND is 46"! And it's not made anymore.

Subject: Re: LaPetite by Kimball From: Ben To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 09:27:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: If you think Kimball's 'La Petite' was abnormally small, check out Schimmel's 3'10 'Mini Grand'. Built in 1938 by Wihelm Schimmel, it had a mirror image scale design to enable it to have longer bass strings.Never seen one b'fore but would love to try out one of their olden 'Prototypes'

Subject: Piano Books From: Danika To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 17:23:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I am presently looking for excellent books on pianos. Anything from Piano music dictionaries to theory and technic. I am at intermediate level, using Alfred's Adult Course Books, but they sometimes leave something lacking in these subjects. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! :)

Subject: Re: Piano Books From: Mat D. To: Danika Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 22:18:22 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Danika, Any of the David Dubal books are wonderful. He is a great authority on pianists & piano literature. I've read them all and I would recomend starting with 'Reflections From The Keyboard' and 'The Art Of The Piano' You will enjoy these and will return to them often. I have read 'Reflections' at least 3 times and still return hoping to find something I may have missed. Enjoy! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Piano Books From: David Burton To: Danika Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 01:46:34 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I went over to Amazon.com and put in 'piano' into their search function and 4,488 titles came back. I started browsing. I ran past a lot of sheet music books, wow. Oh, of course you run through all the 'Complete' this or that, like The Complete Course in Professional Piano Tuning, Repair and Rebuilding by Floyd Stevens (nope, never read it.) the 'first' books of this or that, the 'Joy of' this and that, etc. These titles kill me. Don't know whether any of these are any good but a few I might buy just for the pictures or for technical information about certain pianos or certain composers.  88 Keys, the Making of a Steinway Piano, by Miles Chapen  Beethoven on Beethoven, by William S. Newman  The Cambridge Companion to the Piano, by David Rowland  The Glenn Gould Reader, Glenn Gould  The Great Pianists, Harold Schonberg  Interpreting Bach At The Keyboard, Paul Badura-Skoda (Weird title, I mean where else are you likely to be interpreting Bach, oh wait let me guess... but seriously Badura-Skoda probably does knows something.)  The Makers of the Piano (a series which will set you back a few hundred dollars) by Martha Novak Clinkscale (wow, sure having a name like that helps sell books on pianos?)  Men, Women and Pianos, by Arthur Loesser (Much acclaimed, have never read it)  Piano, by David Crombie (the coffee table piano book).  Piano Servicing, Tuning and Rebuilding by Arthur Reblitz  Playing the Piano for Pleasure by Charles Cooke (a real classic and I highly recommend this one especially to adult piano students.)  Reflections from the Keyboard, by David Dubal (Have heard good things about this one too.)  Steinway & Sons by Richard Lieberman  Theory & Practice in Piano Construction by William White (seems so cheap it can't say very much but who knows...)  Three Centuries of Harpsichord Making, by Frank Hubbard (This too is an authentic classic by one of the key figures in the American revival of interest in harpsichords. It's a great book.)  Downright Upright, by Wayne Kelley (A History of the Canadian piano industry.)  The Encyclopedia of Keyboard Instruments, The Piano (for $120 or so), edited by the Palmieris. (I'm sure it's encyclopedic, but how deep on design and rebuilding I wouldn't know.)  Giraffes, Black Dragons, and Other Pianos, a Technological History from Cristofori to the Modern Concert Grand, (pfewwww.....) by Edwin M. Good (Is it? I don't know, might be.)  Guide to Restringing, by John Travis (Sells for $60! Wonder what's in there?)  History of the Piano, by Ernest Closson (and they want $79! For it? It's a 'Library Binding' published in 1947?)  The Piano Makers, by David Wainwright  Pianos and their Makers, by Alfred Dolge  Pianos, Piano Tuners and their Problems, by Geo. Booth (for $55 hardcover! Wonder what deep dark secrets are in there?)

Subject: Re: Piano Books/On Dubal's "Reflections..." From: Joy To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 19:34:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, 'Reflections from the Keyboard', by David Dubal is a terrific book! Contains Dubal's personal interviews with many of the best pianists of this century. Just to list a few: Horowitz speaks of his historic Carnegie Hall interview, Ashkenazy of his contempt for the former Soviet system, Arrau about psychoanalysis and its effect on his career, Glenn Gould talks about his method of practicing, Tureck discusses her obsession with Bach and de Larrocha's with Granados, Brendel gives insights on all 32 of Beethoven's sonatas. It reads like People magazine -- but witn much better content, of course. It's worth buying just to read the selected discography at the end: Recordings that are most characteristic of each interviewee, many selected by the artists themselves. It's only available in paperback now (I have an old hardcover, published in 1984). Makes a great holiday gift for any pianophile. I also recommend Duval's 'Conversations with Menuhin'.

Subject: Re: Piano Books/On Dubal's From: Andrew To: Joy Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 20:01:23 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Let me echo Joy's recommendations. I enjoyed reading each very much and find myself coming back to different parts of these book again and again. Another 'must have' by Dubal: 'The Art of the Piano. Its Performers, Literature and Recordings.' The title should be quite self-explanatory. Definitely one of the best books for any pianophile. 'Great Contemporary Pianists Speaks for Themselves' by Elyse Mach. I enjoyed reading this so much and so often that the binding is showing clear signs of wear and tear. 'Notable Twentieth-Century Pianists' - A Bio-Critical Sourcebook in Two volumes by Gillespie and Gillespie. Hard cover only and unfortunately quite expensive. IMHO, it's worth every penny I paid for it and more. These are just three that're at the top of my head. Since I am a Steinway devotee I'll recommend some of the piano books that I thought most people will enjoy reading in the near future. Andrew

Subject: Re: Piano Books From: CC To: Danika Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 00:08:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I posted a similar question in the Piano Player forum and one response I received recommended the Norton/Grove Concise Encyclopedia of Music. I did purchase this book and it is a handy reference.

Subject: yamaha G-2 (2 pedal) From: johnboy To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 23:50:28 (EST) Email Address: nckenlans @aol.com Message: Looked at a 1957 Yamaha G-2 2 pedal (Japanese market ?).Our local dealer had previously warned us about 'black market' Yamahas. Our piano tech inspected it and found it to be in excellent mechanical condition -nice action- good hammer alignment -very little hammer wear-no side to side play in the keys -tuning pegs tight etc. the current owner has had it for 10 years without doing anything other than tunings. Unfortunately our tech, while good at tuning and keeping our 1915 Wurlitizer alive (slight pulse still detected),is fairly new to the business and unfamiliar with these Yamahas. Can anyone shed any light on these pianos? Is this a risk? Asking price is 7K. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Re: yamaha G-2 (2 pedal) From: SAM LEWIS PIANO To: johnboy Date Posted: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 21:20:35 (EST) Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com Message: The term is 'gray market' Yamaha, indicating that it's by no means illegal, but these pianos were designed for the Asian climate, and don't always adapt well to the USA. You are taking a chance. I have seen some that do well, others that dont. With no offense to your tech, get a second opinion from someone with more experience, especially with Yamaha. Good Luck

Subject: Re: yamaha G-2 (2 pedal) From: Bruce To: johnboy Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 23:27:27 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Price seems high...I sold a 1973 3 pedals (made for the American market)...very good condition for around 5k...so..really it depends on the sellers motivation and your present needs...Bruce:-)

Subject: LUDWIG & CO. From: SUE To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:53:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I HAVE AN OLD UPRIGHT PIANO THERE IS A LABEL THAT SAYS LUDWIG & CO.NEW YORK HAS ANY ONE HEARD OF THIS CO.? IT ALSO STATES THAT IT WON HIGH HONORS IN AN INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION IN PARIS IN 1900 AND 1st PLACE IN A PAN AMERICAN EXHIBITION IN BUFFALO IN 1901. DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THIS MEANS? I AQUIRED THIS PIANO FROM A FRIEND AND UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT MUSIC OR PIANOS.

Subject: Re: LUDWIG & CO. From: Granholm Bros To: SUE Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:53:11 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I HAVE AN OLD UPRIGHT PIANO THERE IS A LABEL THAT SAYS LUDWIG & CO.NEW YORK HAS ANY ONE HEARD OF THIS CO.? IT ALSO STATES THAT IT WON HIGH HONORS IN AN INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION IN PARIS IN 1900 AND 1st PLACE IN A PAN AMERICAN EXHIBITION IN BUFFALO IN 1901. DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THIS MEANS? I AQUIRED THIS PIANO FROM A FRIEND AND UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT MUSIC OR PIANOS. --- Ludwig was a New York piano builder, one of hundreds in the United States at the turn of the 20th century, which marked the height of a boom in piano sales in this country. Once the boom died in the late '20s, most of these companies died with it, but that's why you see so many old upright pianos still around. These companies would enter pianos in 'competitions' with other brands in international expositions, which were also popular at the time. Although there was some competitive nature to these, it seems almost everyone won some sort of prize, since the purpose of these expositions was mainly to promote various businesses and products around the world. Exposition prize decals are very common inside old pianos. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: LUDWIG & CO. From: SUE To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 23:41:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I HAVE AN OLD UPRIGHT PIANO THERE IS A LABEL THAT SAYS LUDWIG & CO.NEW YORK HAS ANY ONE HEARD OF THIS CO.? IT ALSO STATES THAT IT WON HIGH HONORS IN AN INTERNATIONAL EXHIBITION IN PARIS IN 1900 AND 1st PLACE IN A PAN AMERICAN EXHIBITION IN BUFFALO IN 1901. DOES ANY ONE HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT THIS MEANS? I AQUIRED THIS PIANO FROM A FRIEND AND UNFORTUNATELY I DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT MUSIC OR PIANOS. --- Ludwig was a New York piano builder, one of hundreds in the United States at the turn of the 20th century, which marked the height of a boom in piano sales in this country. Once the boom died in the late '20s, most of these companies died with it, but that's why you see so many old upright pianos still around. These companies would enter pianos in 'competitions' with other brands in international expositions, which were also popular at the time. Although there was some competitive nature to these, it seems almost everyone won some sort of prize, since the purpose of these expositions was mainly to promote various businesses and products around the world. Exposition prize decals are very common inside old pianos. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR --- JOHN, THANK YOU FOR YOUR REPLY. THAT WAS VERY INFORMATIVE AND SAVED ME ALOT OF TIME TRYING TO RESEARCH THIS. HAVE A HAPPY HOLIDAY......SUE

Subject: Upright Piano Recommendation From: Lesa D. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 23:01:18 (EST) Email Address: undefeated@worldnet.att.net Message: I am ready to upgrade my current piano for a top quality upright. My sons have played for a few years now and need a better instrument. Unfortunately, space limitations absolutely preclude a grand. Should I consider anything except a used Steinway K52 or a Mason and Hamlin? What about a Knabe or Baldwin? My budget is ample but not unlimited; I know that I will do better to invest in a higher quality used instrument than settle for a mediocre new one. Any recommendations?

Subject: Re: Upright Piano Recommendation From: ryan To: Lesa D. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:38:55 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: The best upright pianos I have ever played are the Sauter 122 and 130 models with the double-repetition action. You can find list prices on David's websites. I have compared the Sauter to Mason & Hamlin, Steinway, Schulze Pollmann, Yamaha, Kawaii, Baldwin, Schimmel, Charles Walter, and Kemble, and possible a few more that I've forgotten. The Sauter is a German built piano that is built with fantastic precision and top-quality materials. The action has a repetition spring that keeps the jack under the hammer so that you can replay a key without lifting it more than just a fraction of the keydip. This makes it feel very close to a grand and makes it amazingly fast. I have also compared Sauters to several small grands (i.e. under 5'6'), including Baldwin, Wurlitzer, Knabe (new), Weber, Young Chang, and Yamaha, and I thought the Sauter action was faster and more responsive than these lower-end grands. The Sauter tone is very rich, lush, and singing, and they are really a pleasure to play. I don't sell them, I just like to hang out at music stores and try out their pianos:-) Keep in mind that no upright action is going to feel the same as the action on better grands. Grands have a slightly different weight and response to acceleration because the hammer is working against gravity. This gives grands (at least better grands) an edge in dynamic control, repetition speed, and overall playability. The repetition spring in the Sauter helps it's repetition speed, but otherwise the action is still esentially an upright. Springs just don't work the same as gravity. You really notice the difference in more demanding music where there are lots of fast passages and big chords, like in Chopin and Rachmaninoff, for example. Good luck in your search, Ryan

Subject: Re: Upright Piano Recommendation From: JK To: Lesa D. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:54:23 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lesa, If your decsion is going to be based on The Larry Fine book, check out the Yamaha U1. JK

Subject: Re: Upright Piano Recommendation From: Bruce To: JK Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 23:31:00 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: JK: Ever play the U3 or U5?.....I have played them side by side..and the sound is much better on the 52' models, although you pay for it!...Bruce:-)

Subject: Re: Upright Piano Recommendation From: David Burton To: Lesa D. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 23:59:28 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I am ready to upgrade my current piano for a top quality upright. My sons have played for a few years now and need a better instrument. Unfortunately, space limitations absolutely preclude a grand. Should I consider anything except a used Steinway K52 or a Mason and Hamlin? What about a Knabe or Baldwin? My budget is ample but not unlimited; I know that I will do better to invest in a higher quality used instrument than settle for a mediocre new one. Any recommendations? --- Well, I suppose you could start off by taking a look at an article on my website about upright pianos. Then you should buy Larry's book, God he's probably sold millions of em, oh well, he's got a great book. And then you need to seek out the models that you can narrow down as being worth your interest to look at. If money is no real object and I'm shopping for a good upright piano what would I buy? Hummmmm.... There's a piano maker over in Italy that was started after the war by a couple Germans that's called Schulze-Pollmann and they sure make a nice upright, the 126E, that one could probably get for around $9K, that I liked as much as any Steinway upright I've ever played, though it's different. Another few to check out would be the Czeck made Petrof 131 and the American made Astin-Weight, if you can find one. If you found a Knabe to look at, try and find a Boston UP-125. You might like it better than the Knabe. They're both Asian pianos. There's a lot out there in the new market that deserves your attention. Oh if you live anywhere near Seattle you should go check out Fandrich's piano. It supposedly plays like a grand. I've never had the pleasure. Maybe someone else has seen or tried these pianos and can comment.

Subject: Re: Upright Piano Recommendation From: Ben To: David Burton Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:50:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David B,what's your website address again? I lost it.Anyway, your website was great!

Subject: Re: Upright Piano Recommendation From: David Burton To: Ben Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 13:41:06 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: David B,what's your website address again? I lost it.Anyway, your website was great! --- http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/

Subject: Bought A Piano From: Lee To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:20:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We finally took the delivery of our piano, a Petrof Model IV grand. Initially, My wife and I had a great deal of trouble deciding whether to choose the gorgeous flame mahogany finish or the polished ebony finish. Eventually, we settled on the latter for its more serious look and its ease to blend with any kind of home furnishings. The long decision process actually produced a good surprise. We found that the new Petrof grands are now equiped with slow-dropping fallborads, just like Kawai's and Yamaha's. We loved this nice safety feature. Our delivery date was hence set back for another month and a half because the dealer did not have in stock a high-gloss ebony Petrof with that feature. As a matter of fact, he claimed ours would be the very first one in the States. Now this beautiful piano is seating in our den and we love it! I would like to thank this forum and all the contributers for the information and helps I have received, especially those who replied to my earlier postings. Now I am actually addicted to this forum and read it almost on daily basis. Finally, for those who are interested, the Petrof grands equipped with slow-dropping fallborads are those with Ser. No. 557760 or later.

Subject: Re: Bought A Piano From: Bruce To: Lee Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 23:13:05 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Once again...Yamaha leads and others follow suit!:-)...Bruce

Subject: Re: Bought A Piano From: Jim To: Lee Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 18:18:00 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: Lee -- Congratulations on your purchase. It sounds like a terrific instrument. Due to the local 'monopolies' on each brand of piano in most metropolitan areas, many readers do not have a good feeling for what others are paying for pianos and what a good price is. I'm sure it would be much appreciated by the readership if you posted this information; it may come in useful to the next buyer. Again, congratulations! Jim

Subject: Re: Bought A Piano From: Mat D. To: Lee Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 23:17:48 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Lee, congratulations on your new Petrof. Petrof makes an excellent piano and they are constantly making improvements to them year after year; improvements such as your fallboard. Play your piano in good health & we'll be communicating (indirectly anyway) right here on the piano forum! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Bought A Piano From: David Burton To: Lee Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:47:50 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: We finally took the delivery of our piano, a Petrof Model IV grand. Initially, My wife and I had a great deal of trouble deciding whether to choose the gorgeous flame mahogany finish or the polished ebony finish. Eventually, we settled on the latter for its more serious look and its ease to blend with any kind of home furnishings. The long decision process actually produced a good surprise. We found that the new Petrof grands are now equiped with slow-dropping fallborads, just like Kawai's and Yamaha's. We loved this nice safety feature. Our delivery date was hence set back for another month and a half because the dealer did not have in stock a high-gloss ebony Petrof with that feature. As a matter of fact, he claimed ours would be the very first one in the States. Now this beautiful piano is seating in our den and we love it! I would like to thank this forum and all the contributers for the information and helps I have received, especially those who replied to my earlier postings. Now I am actually addicted to this forum and read it almost on daily basis. Finally, for those who are interested, the Petrof grands equipped with slow-dropping fallborads are those with Ser. No. 557760 or later. --- Congratulations, Lee! This forum has certainly been an interesting one to watch and participate in. And many of us who are regular contributors, I am sure, have been as equally gratified as I have that some people on this board have become happy new piano owners. Having sampled some of what's out there, including the really exceptional Petrof IV, and having read the many stories of others out there who have bought even more staggering pianos, like the Mason & Hamlin BB's, those of us who would be involved in any way in this business are hugely grateful that people out there are buying these exceptionally fine pianos. It's almost as if it's a tide turned against a negative cultural drift. Real pianos make real music. There may be little else that can compare with the momentary immortality of being able to play a great piece of piano music from memory on a truly great piano. Again, congratulations!

Subject: Dying Soundboard From: Philippe H To: All Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 19:27:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am reading regularly this forum and find it quite interesting. In one of the thread someone was talking about dying soundboard in new piano. What do you mean by this expression: how does a piano sound like when it has a dying soundboard? what are the 'symptons'? what are the causes (material defect, choice of wood) ? can it be 'cured' ? I am getting 'attracted' more and more by the piano world andI found that what is written in this forum is most informative. Any information/reference on the above subject will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much.

Subject: Re: Dying Soundboard From: Mark Mandell To: Philippe H Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:26:24 (EST) Email Address: msmandl@att.net Message: I am reading regularly this forum and find it quite interesting. In one of the thread someone was talking about dying soundboard in new piano. What do you mean by this expression: how does a piano sound like when it has a dying soundboard? what are the 'symptons'? what are the causes (material defect, choice of wood) ? can it be 'cured' ? I am getting 'attracted' more and more by the piano world andI found that what is written in this forum is most informative. Any information/reference on the above subject will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. --- Rather interesting about someone commenting on a dying soundboard in a new piano because in all of my years of piano service(25)I've never come across such a thing. This is actually a pretty uncommon occurrence but if it happens, the piano has been subject to an extreme degree of dryness. This has the overall effect of lowering the soundboard crown, resulting in the board's inability to transmit sound energy as well it once did. The symptom would be pretty weak tone even if could sustain it well. The only cure for this is replacement. Anything less(i.e., shimming)will simply not restore the sound quality once it's lost. In fact, my partner and I(who run a piano rebuilding service, www.pianosource.com)have done this with two Steinways and it made all the difference in the world once we did it.

Subject: Re: Dying Soundboard From: N.P. To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 11:24:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There, is that word again, 'Crown'. Please explain to this ignoramus what it means. When we bought the Bechstein, the tech said that they didn't replace the sound board but shimmed it because it still has 'crown'. The piano sounds very good not just to our untrained ears but the professionals as well. Anyone? Thank you.

Subject: Re: Dying Soundboard From: ryan To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 10:03:15 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Mark, interesting comments, especially about the ineffectiveness of shimming a dead soundboard. I made a comment about dead soundboards in new pianos, not because I have personally encountered one, but because I had heard from a few dealers that some Chineese and/or Korean pianos were dead on arrival, which they attributed to a dead soundboard. I believe they sent them back without trying to fix them. Again, I don't have first hand experience, so I guess I am guilty of spreading rumors.

Subject: Re: Dying Soundboard From: Mark Mandell To: ryan Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:41:01 (EST) Email Address: msmandl@att.net Message: Mark, interesting comments, especially about the ineffectiveness of shimming a dead soundboard. I made a comment about dead soundboards in new pianos, not because I have personally encountered one, but because I had heard from a few dealers that some Chineese and/or Korean pianos were dead on arrival, which they attributed to a dead soundboard. I believe they sent them back without trying to fix them. Again, I don't have first hand experience, so I guess I am guilty of spreading rumors. --- Well, this might be nothing other than typical sales bull. I mean it's POSSIBLE that these pianos arrive with damaged boards but even the worst ones I worked on years back still had enough crown in them. I'd have to know exactly which makes had this problem before passing judgement.

Subject: Re: Dying Soundboard From: Mark Mandell To: Philippe H Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:18:44 (EST) Email Address: msmandl@att.net Message: I am reading regularly this forum and find it quite interesting. In one of the thread someone was talking about dying soundboard in new piano. What do you mean by this expression: how does a piano sound like when it has a dying soundboard? what are the 'symptons'? what are the causes (material defect, choice of wood) ? can it be 'cured' ? I am getting 'attracted' more and more by the piano world andI found that what is written in this forum is most informative. Any information/reference on the above subject will be greatly appreciated. Thank you very much. ---

Subject: Re: Dying Soundboard From: bb To: Mark Mandell Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 03:45:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: ;)

Subject: BREMEN PIANO From: JEAN To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:11:26 (EST) Email Address: JJPUNT@prodigy.net Message: I have aquired a small Bremen Piano Corp. piano, I have several broken hammers and am looking for any information on this company. I have the sereal number and series but have searched the net and find no info, can anyone out there help me? It was made in the U.S.A. it has a United brotherhood of carpenters stamp inside. Thanks in advance.... Jean

Subject: Behr Brothers Company From: Dottie To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:33:11 (EST) Email Address: kearney@aol.com Message: I have a 1922 upright piano manufactured by Behr Brothers of New York. Has anyone ever heard of this company? I'm sure they're not in business anymore but I'd love to know more about them. Thanks!

Subject: Square piano From: maria hosp To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 17:39:33 (EST) Email Address: mhosp@hotmail.com Message: Does any one have please information on Bruce & Small square painos produced in England in the 19th century?

Subject: Knabe History-1880to1890 From: Jon Young To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:13:00 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Hi Guys and Dolls I may be pursuing something that is non-exist, but I will give it a try. Several of you know I am in the process of having a 1880's Knabe grand rebuilt, S/N 20919 -5'10' in size, and would like to find as much information on it that might be recorded. Other Than Larry Fine's book, does anyone know of any other source of history on Knabes such as : 1) Model No. 2) Original sales price 3) First owners 4) Original materials of construction 5) Original color tones of stains ie: rosewood Or any other pertinent data that would make this project more interesting. I know if anybody has this information, they will be involved with this FORUM!!! Thanks Jon

Subject: Re: Knabe History-1880to1890 From: David Burton To: Jon Young Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 13:57:27 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Jon, By the serial number you gave us that puts your piano in between 1880 and 1885. It was made by the original Knabe company in Baltimore at a time when the sons of Wm. Knabe were running the business. A Knabe of that vintage is going to have a lacquer and wood stain finish, very light but very hard. I wonder if your piano has 88 keys? Probably so, just curious. In any case pianos of this age usually require new soundboards. If you got one, I'd try and replace it with a Northeast White Spruce soundboard as opposed to an Alaskan Sitka Spruce one, but I'd also definitely want a rescaling done to improve the tenor section especially and get the very best bass strings I could find. I'd probably put a set of Ari Isaac hammers in one of these. As for the rest of the action, I'd just clean it up and replace whatever needed replacing. New key bushings, possibly other keyboard parts too. I could adjust the weight and feel just how I wanted it, possibly a touch lighter than most grands. Of course it may cost me many thousands more to have this stuff done but by the end of the day it would be a killer piano.

Subject: Re: Knabe History-1880to1890 From: Jon To: David Burton Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:19:57 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Jon, By the serial number you gave us that puts your piano in between 1880 and 1885. It was made by the original Knabe company in Baltimore at a time when the sons of Wm. Knabe were running the business. A Knabe of that vintage is going to have a lacquer and wood stain finish, very light but very hard. I wonder if your piano has 88 keys? Probably so, just curious. In any case pianos of this age usually require new soundboards. If you got one, I'd try and replace it with a Northeast White Spruce soundboard as opposed to an Alaskan Sitka Spruce one, but I'd also definitely want a rescaling done to improve the tenor section especially and get the very best bass strings I could find. I'd probably put a set of Ari Isaac hammers in one of these. As for the rest of the action, I'd just clean it up and replace whatever needed replacing. New key bushings, possibly other keyboard parts too. I could adjust the weight and feel just how I wanted it, possibly a touch lighter than most grands. Of course it may cost me many thousands more to have this stuff done but by the end of the day it would be a killer piano. --- David You are right, it does have 88 keys. I hope you have a appointment next week to discuss the components to replace with the rebuilder. He has been very busy during the ho;idays and should have it disassembled enough next week for us to discuss in detail. You commented 'hard and light' regarding the original stain finish. As you know, normally rosewood is a dark wood and stain. Do you think the original finish may have bleached out the wood? Right now the current finish is a dark stain several shades darker than walnut but not black. We are getting close to making that decision, so I would like to hear your views. Have a good holiday season!! Jon

Subject: Re: Knabe History-1880to1890 From: Jon To: Jon Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:32:32 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Correction!! It should read-' I hope to have an appointment next week' ---

Subject: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Joy To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 13:19:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What can you do to prevent hissing when recording for practicing. We're using an AIWA stereo boom box, and a cheapo Sony mike. Would getting a better mike help? And where would you place a mike in relation to an upright? Behind the soundboard or above the open lid? Joy

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: a To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 17:45:32 (EST) Email Address: martinez@rica.net Message: Although I realize that you are trying to achieve good quality with your current equipment, I have to mention the availablility of minidisk recorders. Minidisk technology has gotten so that a player/recorder is not mych larger than the disk itself (about the size of a 3 1/2' floppy), and the sound quality is ASTOUNDING. Furthermore, prices have dropped into the $200 range. The recordings - if done with reasonably good microphones - rival CD quality! Plus, the very compact size allows live recordings which could not even be dreamed of before. regards, A

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Joy To: a Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 17:50:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, what an endorsement. Hmm, a last-minute Xmas request perhaps. Thanks for seconding the suggestion.

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: N.P. To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 11:33:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I was looking at Minidisk recorders in Best Buy ads the other day but didn't know that they can also record live. I think, may be two kids are going to find them under the Christmas tree, eh Joy? Good querry.!!Thank you, people, who are in the know.

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Mat D. To: N.P. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 15:03:58 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: N.P. be sure to buy a model that has a microphone input, this will be a stereo minijack. This is important, otherwise you'll need an external mic pre-amp. I am not up on the current model numbers so I can't make a reccomendation, but my (older model) SONY MZ1 has one on it and it can be set to auto record level or manual. Happy Holidays, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: a To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:52:15 (EST) Email Address: martinez@rica.net Message: Since there appears to be some interest, I thought I'd recommend the following: Check out http://www.minidisc.org/. This site is essential for MD reviews and general coverage of the technology, FAQ's etc. Note that some recorders have recording levels which can be set WHILE RECORDING (the Aiwa does... my Sony's does not). This may or may not be a consideration. I am also compelled to say that recording with the 'factory' mic's is much better than any casette based system, but those 'golden ears' amongst you (with wonderful pianos and talents to play them), deserve to invest in a semi-serious pair of microphones ( see http://www.soundprofessionals.com/ ). One added advantage to this technology, is the 'stealth' aspect due to the very small size of the recorder and the mic's. I have succesfully recorded 'in the field', things such as kid's school activities, club shows, outdoor performances, and even environmental sounds (birds, frogs and other nightime sounds...). This Christmas I plan to 'bug' the dining room, in order to finally transcribe some family history before those who remember it pass on. I plan to edit the recordings and then 'burn' them to CD. The question is whether the kids will know what a CD is 20 years from now!! Now back to my piano practice.... a

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: N.P. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 17:45:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks Mat D. You guys are great!!!

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Mat D. To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 00:06:24 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Joy, your hiss problem is probably not due to your microphone. I suspect it is due to the built in compressor in you boom box. A compressor acts like a automatic levelor for you microphone and when there is a low signal it tries to push the level of the mic input higher, thus creating hiss. Cassettes tape that is recorded at too low of a level will also cause this hiss problem--you may have a combination of the two, but I suspect the compressor/auto levelor. There is no way around this with a boom box as a recording device. Your microphone above the open lid is a fine location. If you are interested, I would recomend buying a portable Minidisk recorder (one that has a manual as well as automatic input level control) and start with the mike you have if it is a stereo mic; Sony makes some excellent inexpensive stereo mics such as the ECM 909 (or current similar model). Mat D.

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Joy To: Mat D. Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 13:01:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mat, Thanks for your advice. Don't think I've ever seen a Minidisk recorder! I will make some inquiries at some of the local electronics stores and check it out. Our Sony mic isn't a stereo one. It's probably el gran cheapo of them all -- I'm too embarrassed to say what model number, especially to a professional sound person as yourself. I may have more questions once I find out more about the Minidisk recorder. Thanks again! Joy

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: James To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 17:25:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, First, make sure the tape is a good quality, remember your recording is only as goos as the tape itself....a 1.29 cheapo would not do well..try a CrO2 type tape. Second, try recording from different places...ex. open lid, from a few feet away to 10 feet away..experiment :) Next, make sure the recorder is clean, the heads and tape path especially. There are cleaners available from Radio Shack etc. If you are absolutely sure that microphone is garbage..get a new one, you may be quite amazed at the difference....again available from radio shack. Good luck with your recordings James

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Joy To: James Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 13:09:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: James, While looking into Minidisk recorders, I will look into following your tips with my existing equipment -- the path of least expense! I'm sure our recording heads could stand to be cleaned a lot more often, and it's only $1-$2 more to use better recording tape. Other people have suggested this (along with experimenting with mike placement) can make quite a difference. I'll post the results soon. Thanks again for your advice! Joy

Subject: Re: Recording piano practicing -- HELP PLEASE? From: Ben To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 07:02:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One last suggestion of mine : i record my piano pratices by using one of Sony's Digital voice recorders where no tapes are needed. You pratically just record your piano practices in in without the use of tapes and after you have finished recording, You just hit the playback button to listen to what you have recorded. Though the sound quality is inferior to the minidisc, you can get the recorder at a minimal expense. If i'm not wrong, i got mine for $70. Hope this helps a little.

Subject: Great idea Ben! Be sure to get enough record memory though! nt From: Mat D. To: Ben Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 23:19:40 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: ...

Subject: Re: Great idea Ben! Be sure to get enough record memory though! nt From: Ben To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 02:00:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Check out Sony's website on digital recorders at: http://www.sel.sony.com/SEL/consumer/ss5/office/officeproducts/index.shtml A normal digital recorder can record up to 32 minutes while a professional model has enough memory to record up to 2.5 hours!! A digital recorder is better than those normal tape recorders but it isn't better than those minidisc recorders. For a moderate price which cost is a little bit more than the tape recorder but much cheaper than a minidisc, it should be feasible to get on of those digital recorders. Hope this doesn't add to your confusion though.

Subject: Benches From: MacDuff To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 23:50:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Whatever happened to those 'recital' benches which were like a wooden 'library' chair having a small, nearly useless back. Some of these had an adjusting mechanism to raise and lower the seat (these were very good at creaking and squonking with every movement of the player). These seem to be disappearing (thank goodness) from use, and I have not been seeing them in piano catologs or on-line stores. I DON'T want one, just curious.

Subject: Piano Notes From: Carmen Tumialn To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:50:44 (EST) Email Address: CarmenTumialan@hotmail.com Message: If b means go down one note, and # means go up one note, what does x mean? What if the note with the x is already sharp or flat -- what then?

Subject: Re: Piano Notes From: David Burton To: Carmen Tumialn Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:35:25 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: The 'x' symbol in front of a note in music notation represents what's called the double sharp. The double sharp of any note represents an exact note by pitch and is never a relative designation. So if a note that is normally flattened by the key signature happens to receive a double sharp, which is highly unlikely, it would refer to the natural of that note, unflatted or unsharped, plus two semi-tones. For instance, a b double sharp, as a note b preceeded by an 'x' would be called, is really specifying the note c# above that b natural, and a b# would be the same as c natural whether or not the key signature did or did not indicate a flatted b, such as for example a key signature of one flat which would be F major or d minor. This symbol is used in music of some antiquity. It is common enough in J. S. Bach and can be found in earlier manuscripts of the masters before him.

Subject: apollo From: ralph To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:17:30 (EST) Email Address: rdiekemper@sutliff.net Message: am purchasing apollo 6-1 grand, 20-25 yrs old A- condition action good-great tone cabinet good condition-any comments on apollo's-worth etc. love the piece and will purchase irregardless.

Subject: piano appraisal From: Sonja To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 10:48:52 (EST) Email Address: spratten@mail.nysed.gov Message: I would like to know where I can get my piano appraised, possibly online. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Subject: Re: piano appraisal From: Granholm Bros To: Sonja Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 22:52:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would like to know where I can get my piano appraised, possibly online. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks. --- Unless it is a new piano, this can't be done online. It requires a visual inspection by a trained piano technician. You'll find them under Piano tuning/repair in your local yellow pages. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: young chang piano From: sharon To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:06:15 (EST) Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com Message: I am so confused...I am looking to buy a baby grand piano. I do not play but would like to learn. I do not need the finest piano...would like to stay in the $5 - 9,000 ranage. I am thinking of buying a young chang. What do you think? I would also like white lacquer and they say the new polyester does not yellow...what do you think? I have been told to buy a Samack, Yahmaha, Petrof and it is very confusing. Help

Subject: Re: young chang piano From: JK To: sharon Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 18:41:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sharon, If you don't play, a Young Chang G150 4'11' or a G157 5'2' is a very good quality piano. They are higer quality than the low end Yamaha GH1 or GP1 5'3'.There are better quality uprights ie Yamaha U1. However, if you want the look of a baby grand the Young Chang is fine.Go for the 5'2'. We all know that 5'8' and up is the way to go, however if you don't play, good quality Baby Grands are fine. That's why they make them.Young Chang makes pianos in China.DO NOT under any circumstances buy one of those. Look at the serial #, if it starts with the letter 'T' followed by 2 or 3. 0's then it was made in China.Also the model # would be TG instead of 'G'. Good luck. Jim :)

Subject: Re: young chang piano From: sharon To: JK Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 21:11:22 (EST) Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com Message: Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question about Young Chang. I appreciate your candid opinion. Do you know if the white lacquer piano will turn yellow? The salesman said the new polyester materials do not yellow... Thank you Sharon

Subject: Re: young chang piano From: Cork To: sharon Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 13:56:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am so confused...I am looking to buy a baby grand piano. I do not play but would like to learn. I do not need the finest piano...would like to stay in the $5 - 9,000 ranage. I am thinking of buying a young chang. What do you think? I would also like white lacquer and they say the new polyester does not yellow...what do you think? I have been told to buy a Samack, Yahmaha, Petrof and it is very confusing. Help --- Sharon, Don't feel alone. Buying a piano can be very confusing, particularly when you do not yet own one. Here are a few thoughts. First, get a copy of 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine, the definitive consumer's guide to buying a new or used piano. Don't just read it once, read it several times. Mr. Fine also has a yearly pricing supplement that lists 'standard' prices for virtually every instrument offered in the US, with guidelines for discounts to expect. The book is available in large bookstores, and both the pricing supplement and the book are available directly from Fine at his site: www.tiac.net/users/pianobk Next, reconsider whether you really want or need a grand. The price range you quote will get you a 'baby' grand that will be a disappointing musical instrument but a cute piece of furniture, or a quite beautiful large upright that will be a very exciting musical instrument and a very nice piece of furniture as well. The reasons for this you will learn in 'The Piano Book'. As for the manufacturers you mention, the Korean manufacturers Samick and Young Chang make pianos that are a decent value, combining relatively low prices with acceptable entry-level quality. Both Petrof and Yamaha are a definite step up in quality and price, and are definitely worth consideration. As for color, that's your choice, but if basic black doesn't appeal to you I'd strongly recommend a wood finish over polyester white. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: young chang piano From: Andrew To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 08:59:19 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Cork, It's so good to see you again helping people out here. I have a question for you also. Could you please tell me what's wrong with high-gloss polyester? I am thinking about in the near future have my grand refinished. I happen to like high-gloss black. Could you please shed some light on this. Thanks. Andrew

Subject: Re: young chang piano From: Crandall To: Andrew Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 13:31:25 (EST) Email Address: cbchow@usa.net Message: Sharon, Grab Larry Fine's Piano Book. Read it. Shop around. Take time listening to the pianos out there, even if it means having the sales guy play it for you. Also, consider the used piano market. $8000 will get you a very decent used grand piano, or a basic new grand. White finishes, in general, are hard to come by on any grand piano larger than 5'5''. So it's really not that white finishes are bad, it's that a 5'2'' grand piano isn't a serious piano. And since white finishes are usually only available on the smaller sized pianos, there's your connection. Also, you do pay a premium for the non-black color--this means you may be trading off color for a better instrument. Andrew, I like high-gloss black too. Some say the high-gloss black looks too ostentatious, or that it is too hard to keep clean of dust and fingerprints. Still, I like high-gloss black over satin. Ben, I usually use a soft cloth to clean fingerprints, or use a very small amount of 409. Someone told me lighter fluid works well for fingerprints, but I've never tried it.

Subject: White Finishes From: MacDuff To: Cork Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 23:28:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sharon, I think you should know that there is something of a stigma against white grand pianos among 'serious' pianists. Of course, there are circumstances where these can look quite beautiful in a room.

Subject: Re: White Finishes From: sharon To: MacDuff Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 20:22:26 (EST) Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com Message: I'm not sure I understand what kind of a stigma that serious piano players have against white pianos...But putting that aside, do you agree that they 'yellow' in time or do you agree that the new finishes (polyester) do not yellow? Thanks a milliont

Subject: Re: White Finishes From: John D. To: sharon Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 13:30:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For what it's worth, I know one person who has a white grand. It's about 15 years old and not a great piano, but it looks nice in her room. It has not yellowed. I do not know if it has a lacquer or polyester finish. The piano is protected from sunlight and people don't put their hands all over the cabinet - I'm not sure if that makes a difference, but I thought I should mention it. I believe the main reason why people are advising you against getting white is because of its resale value - not many people want a white piano. However, if you plan on keeping it, get white and enjoy! Later, John D.

Subject: Re: White Finishes From: sharon To: MacDuff Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 20:22:26 (EST) Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com Message: I'm not sure I understand what kind of a stigma that serious piano players have against white pianos...But putting that aside, do you agree that they 'yellow' in time or do you agree that the new finishes (polyester) do not yellow? Thanks a milliont

Subject: Re: black high-polished finish From: BEN To: MacDuff Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 23:38:17 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just a thought about high-polished black finish--i still can't find a way to clean my piano with a wet cloth WITHOUT leaving waterstain marks on my piano. What methods do u guys use?

Subject: Mute Rail Installations From: Judy To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 00:10:37 (EST) Email Address: jlsinn_98@yahoo.com Message: I was just at a piano dealer this weekend looking to purchase my first piano and I asked about installing a mute rail in a piano that I was interested in. I know that most pianos have their mute rails activated through the center pedal so I was surprised when they told me the rail would be activated by a lever located just under the keyboard area of the piano. When I questioned this as unusual, the salesperson told me that this was not very unusual and that this was becoming a more common practice. While I am not opposed to having the mute rail activated by a lever just under the keyboard (you can't see it unless you bend down and look for it), I'm wondering if there are any problems with this. Can anyone shed some light on this subject?

Subject: Re: Mute Rail Installations From: Marianne To: Judy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 04:33:11 (EST) Email Address: marianneheins@freemail.nl Message: I was just at a piano dealer this weekend looking to purchase my first piano and I asked about installing a mute rail in a piano that I was interested in. I know that most pianos have their mute rails activated through the center pedal so I was surprised when they told me the rail would be activated by a lever located just under the keyboard area of the piano. When I questioned this as unusual, the salesperson told me that this was not very unusual and that this was becoming a more common practice. While I am not opposed to having the mute rail activated by a lever just under the keyboard (you can't see it unless you bend down and look for it), I'm wondering if there are any problems with this. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? --- A lever for activating a mute rail doesn't have to give any problems. My own piano has such a lever under the keyboard an I have not had any problems with it for almost ten years. So don't worry.

Subject: Re: Mute Rail Installations From: Granholm Bros To: Judy Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 11:27:25 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I was just at a piano dealer this weekend looking to purchase my first piano and I asked about installing a mute rail in a piano that I was interested in. I know that most pianos have their mute rails activated through the center pedal so I was surprised when they told me the rail would be activated by a lever located just under the keyboard area of the piano. When I questioned this as unusual, the salesperson told me that this was not very unusual and that this was becoming a more common practice. While I am not opposed to having the mute rail activated by a lever just under the keyboard (you can't see it unless you bend down and look for it), I'm wondering if there are any problems with this. Can anyone shed some light on this subject? --- Running a muffler rail off the center pedal requires some relatively complicated (not to mention expensive) trapwork revisions compared to the simple task of adding the after-market kit your dealer's technician will install. These kits are designed to bypass the pedals by making use of the under-keybed lever, and this installation should present no problems. In your case, in a piano without a factory-installed muffler rail, it's the way to go. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Mute Rail Installations From: JK To: Judy Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 07:05:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Judy, Although not too common,there is no problem with this. We install about 2 or 3 a year. JK :)

Subject: Re: Mute Rail Installations From: Judy To: JK Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 23:26:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the reply. It makes me feel a little better that they're not doing something that may be problematic in the long-run. Judy

Subject: New Piano From: Matt J To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 00:43:30 (EST) Email Address: mjhelol@ix.netcom.com Message: I am a beginner and I am looking for a new piano. I would like to remain in the 10K-15K range and I am having trouble finding a good piano. I was thinking of Young Chang and Manson Hamlin. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks

Subject: Re: New Piano From: Matt J To: Matt J Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 15:11:45 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: New Piano From: Joy To: Matt J Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 03:21:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You might find it useful to start with David Burton's website: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ He took on the admirable task of listing verticals and grands separately, and then placing them in order of asking prices. Look at the list and read his overall commentary on each list. Then borrow or purchase Larry Fine's excellent books, 'The Piano Book' and his most recent supplement. Then come back to this site and read ALL the postings.There's a wealth of information here.I printed out the best ones for my own piano shopping file. Then visit all the piano showrooms in your area and make notes of what people tell you at each place. Find a good piano technician, someone who's registered with the Piano Technicians Guild or get a referral from a piano teacher. Call and get his/her opinion on what you've discovered, get feedback. The more, the better. This will help you narrow down what to look for, and you'll learn a great deal in the process while deciding which piano is best for your own needs. For example, you'll learn from this forum, Mr. Fine's book, and Mr. Burton's website that it's better to get a top-of-the-line vertical than a baby grand. They are both about the same price, but the vertical is a far better instrument. Also, comparing a Young Chang to a Mason & Hamlin is kind of like choosing between a Chevy and a Mercedes. There's a lot of research and testing ahead for you -- much like shopping for a car. Enjoy the journey. It'll be frustrating at first, but rewarding as you get acclimated to the jargon. Good luck in your search.

Subject: Re: One final suggestion.... From: Joy To: Joy Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 15:52:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One more thought: another avenue to explore is to look at used pianos. You'll find most of these in private homes. You might find a REAL GEM. I recall that many of the piano salespeople I encountered tried to discourage me from looking at used pianos. Take this with a grain of salt. Used pianos in excellent condition are the piano dealers biggest competition. Keep that in mind if someone tells you not to look at used pianos. The main thing is to have a certified technician inspect the potential purchase before you write the check.

Subject: Re: One final suggestion.... From: Matt To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 14:47:00 (EST) Email Address: mjhelol@ix.netcom.com Message: Thanks for the suggestions, Joy. I probably won't be purchasing anything until next November or so... Thanks again for the help!

Subject: Re: One final suggestion.... From: Lewis To: Matt Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 22:16:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can someone explain to me the difference between used,reconditioned,and re-built? If i'm going for 5'8 grands or bigger, is there any brands that i can look out for in the used,reconditioned,and re-built category?>Thanks alot

Subject: info inquiry From: cary To: All Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 13:55:07 (EST) Email Address: youbootsy@aaol.com Message: looking for information on austrian baby grand piano'franz oeser' c.1880

Subject: Comparison of Re-Built Mason & Hamlins From: Harry C. To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 07:17:17 (EST) Email Address: harry.cardile@ctg.com Message: I am currently looking at a couple of different Mason & Hamlin A models that are tough to choose between. One is a 1911 that was rebuilt some 16 years ago by a well-known rebuilder in Atlanta. From one of that rebuilder's techs, I've determined that the pin block ws replaced and it probably had a Japanese action put in, but he said that should be OK and was the best available in that day. There's some question as to how well it tuned back in May, but the tech has not had a first-hand look, yet. The piano looks quite good to my untrained eye, though there are some minor finish blemishes and it looks to have been sitting in a living room next to a window. The owner is asking for $10,500 but may take $9,000. The other is a 1930's A that's in the process of being rebuilt by a different rebuilder. Though not as known of a rebuilder, he seems quite knowledgable. The sound board is not being replaced and he is using Renner for the action and hammers. A strong suggestion was made by another tech that a piano like this should be done with Renner action, but NOT Renner hammers. He also suggested that the pin block should be a Delignant beach variety, and most significantly he suggested that if the rebuilder wasn't doing these two things, then he may be a suspect rebuilder. The piano is going for $16,500, though he'll discount to $13,500 on an upfront payment deal. He's also offering a 10-year warranty, and has been in business for over 20 years. We are also considering a player, which would run $3,500 through this rebuilder, as opposed to $5,000(?) if put into a privately purchased unit. So, tough decision. I'm leaning towards the newly rebuilt piano, though the tech has me somewhat skeptical of the quality of the rebuilding job. What suggestions would you make? Any thoughts on how to get a better view on the quality of the rebuilder and his work on this piano? Thanks for your advise! Harry

Subject: Re: Comparison of Re-Built Mason & Hamlins From: Niles Duncan To: Harry C. Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 05:01:12 (EST) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: This tech who is advising you and casting doubts on the rebuilder of the second piano you mention is doing a primadonna act. The Delignit pinblocks are from Germany and are made of a large number of very thin laminations of beech pressed together with lots of glue. It's an excellent pinblock, and if you are into counting laminations - it has about 20 per inch - it's the one. However the original pinblocks in these pianos were three to five layer maple pinblocks, and look how well they've held up over all these years. There are other types of pinblocks available besides Delignit, and they perform well. There simply is no reason to say a rebuilder is suspect if he isn't using my favorite brand. What really counts is how precisely and consistently he drills the pinblock and how well he fits it to the plate and the case. This stuff about Renner action but not Renner hammers is more of the same B.S. You can make an excellent sounding M & H with Renner hammers. They also sound great with Tokiwa hammers, and probably also with Abel hammers. Everyone bows down and genuflects when the name Renner is mentioned, but I more often use Tokiwa action parts and Abel action parts and get excellent results with them. On rebuilding older Steinways I've given up on Renner altogether because of touch weight issues. I've been rebuilding pianos for close to 20 years, and I'll say that there is more than one way to get a good result. This tech's criticisms sound superficial to me. It makes me wonder if he has some hidden agenda of his own here. If this rebuilder is giving you an arrangement where you get your deposit back if you don't like the piano when it's finished and you've seen some of his other work and are satisfied with it, you might do well to put some money down and get that $3000 price reduction. $13.5K is very reasonable for that piano. As for the other one it does sound like a very fair price for it, but I'm inclined to say that a new rebuild is better than a 16 year old rebuild. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles, CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Comparison of Re-Built Mason & Hamlins From: Mat D. To: Harry C. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 22:28:14 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Harry, It's very difficult to give advice about (2) pianos such as you are looking at, but it sounds like either is potentially very good and pricing seems fair. FYI the new Mason & Hamlins use Renner action & Hammers--they are fabulous pianos. If you decide on the newer piano being rebuilt, I would not worry about Renner hammers (though there are others), but I would work closely with the technician during the voicing process. New Renner hammers tend to be rather hard & have to be 'voiced down' IMO in order to get that rich, warm full Mason & Hamlin sound. My experience with my own M&H BB is that it sounded great when I first got it, but brightened up within the first year (Renner hammers). After a major voicing job (hammers were totally 'juiced' --- softened and tone built back up from there) my piano is now a favorite among some professional pianist friends of mine--not to mention me. The bottom line is, whatever hammer you decide on, you must work with the technician to get the voicing you want --- you can get a wonderful tone from Renner Hammers. let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Comparison of Re-Built Mason & Hamlins From: Harry C. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 22:06:04 (EST) Email Address: harry.cardile@ctg.com Message: Niles and Mat, Thanks for your advice. I have elected to go with the newly re-built Mason & Hamlin. The price difference wound up only being about $2,500, and a 10-year warranty is nice to have. Thanks again! Harry

Subject: Re: Comparison of Re-Built Mason & Hamlins From: David Burton To: Harry C. Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 13:19:35 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Harry, Congratulations! My, it seems that we sell a lot of Mason & Hamlins on here, LOL. Not that I mind. Not that M&H pays me. Oh, I do care that there still is a real old fashioned piano factory still turning out real pianos here in up here in the Northeast of America and I do want to make sure it stays in business. Well, another factory anyway, since both Baldwin and Steinway can each both claim pretty tremendous facilities and can turn out many wonderful pianos each year. Nice to have a big three in pianos where the number three maker just might be the equal or the superior of the other two. Anyway, I'm sure you'll enjoy your piano.

Subject: Re: Comparison of Re-Built Mason & Hamlins From: Mat D. To: Harry C. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 23:56:14 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Harry, congratulations on your new piano and welcome to the Mason & Hamlin family; that family seems to be growing here on the piano forum!

Subject: Questions about 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin A From: ryan To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 13:56:33 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I played a 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin this weekend. I say 'reconditioned' because the soundboard was rebuilt, not replaced, and oversize pins were put into the pinblock. The cabinet hasn't had any work (it's a bit rough), and the white keys have been recovered with plastic (not sure what kind, but it feels good). Also, action parts have been replaced, including the hammers, but not the entire action. It has also been restrung. The work was completed about 5 years ago. The piano feels great, and has a really good sound. When it came into the shop a couple of weeks ago it was extremely bright, but they toned it down quite a bit. They also did extensive regulation. They current price is just under $20,000 (including an artist bench). Assuming the piano is solid and isn't going to fall apart in the next year or two, is this a fair price? I realize that it's a tough call without seeing the piano first hand, but I am more interested in finding out if this price is in the 'ballpark' for a M&H with this level of reconditioning, or would you expect to pay significantly less? For comparison's sake, it feels and sounds slightly better than a rebuilt 1909 Steinway O that is sitting next to it.

Subject: Re: Questions about 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin A From: Harry C. To: ryan Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 22:27:11 (EST) Email Address: harry.cardile@ctg.com Message: In my search for rebuilt Mason & Hamlin A's, I've come across the following: - newly rebuilts from $13,500 to $19,500 (1920s & 30s) - used, completely rebuilt 16 years ago for $10,500 (1911) - used, unseen but listed at mint in paper for $7,500 (1920s) I've selected a newly rebuilt 1939 for $13,500 with a 10-year warranty. Hope that helps in your comparisons. Harry

Subject: Re: Questions about 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin A From: ryan To: Harry C. Date Posted: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 11:27:56 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Harry, thanks for the information. Based on these numbers and information in your previous thread I would say this piano is overpriced by thousands of dollars. I was not planning on purchasing the piano in question, I was really just wondering how far off the dealer price was from reality. Unfortunately somebody will probably buy it for close to what the dealer is asking. Sounds like you got a fantastic deal! Especially with the warranty. Ryan

Subject: Re: Questions about 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin A From: David Burton To: ryan Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 21:34:21 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I personally tend to think the price is a bit on the high side. If I were to pay $20K for a 'rebuilt' M&H, the pinblock would be REPLACED and the case would be REFINISHED and the piano would look as well as play and sound brand new. I have a real problem with a reconditioning job that doesn't replace the pinblock. I don't see much point in doing the work that was claimed for this much money. I'd stir clear myself. As for the new BB's, you must try and find one and play it. Then decide.

Subject: Re: Questions about 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin A From: John D. To: ryan Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 16:11:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I played a 'reconditioned' 1926 Mason & Hamlin this weekend. I say 'reconditioned' because the soundboard was rebuilt, not replaced, and oversize pins were put into the pinblock. The cabinet hasn't had any work (it's a bit rough), and the white keys have been recovered with plastic (not sure what kind, but it feels good). Also, action parts have been replaced, including the hammers, but not the entire action. It has also been restrung. The work was completed about 5 years ago. The piano feels great, and has a really good sound. When it came into the shop a couple of weeks ago it was extremely bright, but they toned it down quite a bit. They also did extensive regulation. They current price is just under $20,000 (including an artist bench). Assuming the piano is solid and isn't going to fall apart in the next year or two, is this a fair price? I realize that it's a tough call without seeing the piano first hand, but I am more interested in finding out if this price is in the 'ballpark' for a M&H with this level of reconditioning, or would you expect to pay significantly less? For comparison's sake, it feels and sounds slightly better than a rebuilt 1909 Steinway O that is sitting next to it. --- I'm no expert on reconditioning or how much the piano you are looking at is worth... However, I will say that many people on this forum have reported getting a brand new M&H BB (7') for around $30K and some even slightly under $30K. For the extra $10K, I personally would buy a new one. They are beautiful instruments. Later, John D.

Subject: New BB for less than $30K From: Jonathan To: John D. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 16:43:03 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: As one of those who bought a brand new BB for less than $30k, I would say go for the new. It's a great instrument and my wife is extremely happy with it.

Subject: Re: New BB for less than $30K From: Mat D. To: Jonathan Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 23:54:21 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: I agree with Jonathan. I also own a new BB that I paid in the same pricerange as he--if you can swing it, it's the best thing going right now! Keep us up to date. Mat D.

Subject: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: Lou To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 20:41:54 (EST) Email Address: jewl805@aol.com Message: Time to buy another piano. First one is a 1954 York (Weaver). Kids are starting to sound pretty good and wife wants to start lessons. Cost was 200 dollars and now I'm in sticker shock. Looking for console size. Local Yamaha dealer in 3600 to 5000 range. Baldwin dealer has much larger selection. The Baldwin 'Classic' style @ 3895, the 'Acrosonic' style @ 4495 and the 'Hamilton' style @ 6195. Hamilton sounded the best until he showed me a used 1976 Steinway studio piano at 8800 dollars. This is out of the range of the pocket book. I've read a lot of the other messages but do not see a lot of info on Baldwins. Can anyone shed some light on the advantages or differences between Yamaha and Baldwins? Appreciate your feedback. Lou

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: Charlie To: Lou Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 12:55:38 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Time to buy another piano. First one is a 1954 York (Weaver). Kids are starting to sound pretty good and wife wants to start lessons. Cost was 200 dollars and now I'm in sticker shock. Looking for console size. Local Yamaha dealer in 3600 to 5000 range. Baldwin dealer has much larger selection. The Baldwin 'Classic' style @ 3895, the 'Acrosonic' style @ 4495 and the 'Hamilton' style @ 6195. Hamilton sounded the best until he showed me a used 1976 Steinway studio piano at 8800 dollars. This is out of the range of the pocket book. I've read a lot of the other messages but do not see a lot of info on Baldwins. Can anyone shed some light on the advantages or differences between Yamaha and Baldwins? Appreciate your feedback. Lou --- To answer your question, the key differences between Baldwin and Yamaha are these: 1. Tone: the Yamaha is brighter, I think too bright, but this is completely a matter of your taste & ears. 2. Touch: the Balwin is generally a little heavier than the Yamaha. I think the Yamaha might be a little too light for a 'young'un' learning to play, since most pianos have a little heavier touch. I owned a Baldwin Hamilton (just a few years old) and was very happy with it. 3. Initial quality out of the factory: Yamahas are reportedly 'perfect' out of the box. Baldwins probably need a little touch up. Mine needed a couple of strings 'twisted' to get rid of some strange resonances. This was covered under warranty, as should any initial problems. Continue to read Larry Fine, he has generally good advice. If you are on a seriously contrained budget, give real consideration to a used instrument. If you have the instrument properly checked out, you could save a substantial amount over a new one. And some of the best instruments get better with age. Good luck!

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: To: Charlie Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 22:00:45 (EST) Email Address: Message: Thank you for your input. Lou

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: MacDuff To: Lou Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 14:40:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I prefer Yamaha to Baldwin for uprights. The Hamilton upright action always feels sort of 'spongy.' The Sohmer piano company used to make a very good large, upright 'studio' model piano. The company is no longer in business, but you might could find one used. Another really good upright is made by Mason and Hamlin (for cost reasons, used is the way to go with these).

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: To: MacDuff Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 22:02:01 (EST) Email Address: Message: Thanks for your input. Lou

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: To: MacDuff Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 21:01:30 (EST) Email Address: jewl805@aol.com Message: Thanks, Lou

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: Rick To: Lou Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 13:18:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently bought a new Yamaha T121 for $4500 in the Northern Virginia area. It is 48 inches tall, and is a better piano than a console - because it is taller. After doing some research, I decided to rule out consoles - even the salesman at one of the stores I shopped at told me 'no matter what you do, don't buy a console' The dealer started out with a price of $6000, but readily came down when he realized I was ready to buy it on the spot - for the reduced price - but was walking away otherwise. This is a good technique to use, as long as you CAN walk away without regret. In many areas, there isn't just another piano store around the corner! Now that I have it at home, I am happy with it - not thrilled, but I would have needed much more money to get the kind of thrill I really want! Considering your budget, you should shop around, pick the largest piano that you like and that you can reasonably afford, and then really negotiate. By the way, I looked at Baldwins, but in the 4-5k range I could not get as much piano as I could with the Yamaha - and I wasn't very impressed with their verticals. But that is simply my preference. Good Luck!

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: To: Rick Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 22:04:19 (EST) Email Address: Message: Thanks for your input. Lou

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: To: Rick Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 21:04:07 (EST) Email Address: Message: Thanks for the info. I have spent the last 2 days reading and learning. Getting the L. Fine book to read some more. Lou

Subject: Re: Purchase - Baldwin, Yamaha, other? From: Rick To: Lou Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 13:03:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: antique piano From: Denise To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 21:48:17 (EST) Email Address: drigbus@aol.com Message: Has any one heard of Reynold and Son (son is spelled Syon?) The piano is at least 100-150 years old and was made in Berlin. The piano seems to have been built backwards...hammers,etc. Any info would be appreciated.

Subject: Hallet & Davis console piano From: Kathie To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 09:30:38 (EST) Email Address: xfiles@enter.net Message: What is your opion of this type of piano? How long have they been in business? How reliable are they as far as quality of sound etc? What would a reasonable price be for this piano? Does anyone have any history of their background?

Subject: Re: Hallet & Davis console piano From: Granholm Bros To: Kathie Date Posted: Tues, Dec 14, 1999 at 20:02:50 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: What is your opion of this type of piano? How long have they been in business? How reliable are they as far as quality of sound etc? What would a reasonable price be for this piano? Does anyone have any history of their background? --- As a rule, console (40-inch tall) pianos are better than spinet pianos but not as good as most taller uprights. The rule of thumb is that the smaller you make any piano, the more compromises you must make, especially in sound quality because of shorter strings and limited soundboard area. Hallet & Davis started building pianos in Boston in the 1840s. Your piano, however, was most likely built by Aeolian, who acquired rights to the H&D name when they closed in the mid 1950s. Aeolian then used the H&D brand name on their economy-model pianos up through the mid 1980s. Any questions about value must be answered by a local piano technician after he/she inspects the piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Eterna From: mick To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 19:52:22 (EST) Email Address: crowleyfam@aol.com Message: My dealer is recommending an Eterna piano by Yamaha as a first instrument for my 9 year old. He says it has all Yamaha parts and is of good quality for the price. It is an ebony console and the price is $3200 new. I am prepared to pay more for a 'real' Yamaha, but he says I don't need to. Any thoughts?

Subject: Godfry of London? From: Jamie B. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 02:41:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I can find on history or record of my piano. All I know is that it is about 100-115 years old. I'd appreiciate your input if you have any to offer. Thank you

Subject: Yamaha C Price From: Jay Milender To: All Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:13:37 (EDT) Email Address: jmilender@prodigy.net Message: We have finally decided to buy a new Yamaha C2. Our local dealer has come down to $14,200 which includes delivery, initial setup and a tuning a couple of months later. Is this a good price for this piano or can we do better? As always, any comments are appreciated. Jay Milender

Subject: Re: Yamaha C Price From: curt To: Jay Milender Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 22:56:57 (EST) Email Address: appledaddy@webtv.net Message: Jay, From what I can tell you did ok on price, provided we are talking the same model and finish. I got a quote of $13,795 for the Yamaha C2 Polished Ebony Model. This excludes state sales tax but includes delivery, set-up, etc. I actually think that there migt be a little more room for negotiation in the quote I got since I did not have to push for this price. I guess a lot depends on your local market. There are a lot of Yamaha dealers in the area where I live making it a pretty competitive market. Unfortunately, this is not true of Baldwin in my area. I have my choices narrowed down to the C2, the Baldwin R, or having my Sohmer rebuilt. Good luck.

Subject: Re: Yamaha C Price From: Bruce To: curt Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 12:44:43 (EST) Email Address: peano86381@aol.com Message: Jay: Your right about having other dealers in the area driving the price down, in my area 13 k would only buy you a C1!!.....with no competition here C2's go for around 15-17K!!...your getting a very good price!! Bruce

Subject: Re: Yamaha C Price From: alvinator To: Jay Milender Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 20:56:15 (EDT) Email Address: aries@csrlink.net Message: We have finally decided to buy a new Yamaha C2. Our local dealer has come down to $14,200 which includes delivery, initial setup and a tuning a couple of months later. Is this a good price for this piano or can we do better? As always, any comments are appreciated. Jay Milender --- Jay, In my locale of central PA, I was quoted $12,500 for a C2 and $16,250 for a C3. I opted for the C3 and I know I got a great deal at that price. In addition, I purchased a great piano! By the way, my purchase was in March 1999.

Subject: Re: Yamaha C Price From: brae To: alvinator Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 11:16:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I sort of hate to mention it - I am also considering a C2 - but there is a new one in LA, listed in the classified section of this page, for $12,000. Good Luck!

Subject: Re: Yamaha C Price From: JCampbell To: brae Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 00:31:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Further, just paid around $18K for a new C3.

Subject: Amazing sales statement From: J Campbell To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:36:12 (EST) Email Address: jcampbell@mofo.com Message: A Kawai salesman told me over the phone that Boston pianos are relabelled second line Kawai pianos not designed by Steinway. I'm not defending the boston, but I am amazed at the statements I hear at piano stores (and this is a large one in SF)

Subject: Re: Amazing sales statement From: Charlie To: J Campbell Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 14:32:39 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: 1. Some piano sales people are worse than the proverbial 'used car saleman', at least in the SF area. 2. Kawai built for Boston. There are some obvious differences in the design, but Steinway probably did not design it from the ground up. They likely took some of the Kawai design and made some modifications. 3. If the Kawai contact is over, then Steinway will surely: a. find another builder, b. renew or rewrite the contract with Kawai, or c. build them themselves. The line appears to have been a sucess for Steinway so they wouldn't want to lose their momentum. Private label contracts go this way.

Subject: Re: Amazing sales statement From: Bruce To: J Campbell Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 08:33:34 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Boston pianos are made in Kawai plants. Also I have heard from a reliable source that Steinway's contract with Kawai might be over. Bruce

Subject: Re:Kawai? Boston?Young Chang?Steinway? From: JK To: Bruce Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 08:03:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Bruce, As of Nov.1 the Boston Piano Company,a subsidiary of Steinway Musical Instuments,Inc.and Young Chang Co.,Ltd of inchon,Korea jointly announced the signing of an Agreement under which Young Chang will manufacture a new line of grand and upright pianos designed by Steinway.This new piano line will join Steinway Musical Instruments other two brands: Steinway & Sons,and the mid-priced Boston line designed by Steinway and manufactured in Japan.The first model of the new line will be unveiled formally in early 2001 at the NAMM show in the U.S. and at the Frankfurt Musik Messe in Germany.This third line will be reprsented exclusively through Steinway Halls,Steinway Piano galleries,and selected Steinway/Boston dealerships.This third line of pianos will be priced below the Boston. In my opinon this is a great marketing idea for Steinway. Instead of a Steiway dealer having to carry Yamaha and/or Young Chang,their competitors, a Steiway dealer will have a great 'Pitch'. Steinway,the best from America,Boston,the best from Japan, and ????,the best from Korea.All under their own umbrella. This information,outside of my own opinion,was taken from the December issiue of 'The Music Trades' magazine. Thanks, JK

Subject: Re: Re:Kawai? Boston?Young Chang?Steinway? From: alvinator To: JK Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 15:39:59 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would this new line be called Youngstein Changway or Wayyoung Steinchang or what?

Subject: Re: Re:Kawai? Boston?Young Chang?Steinway? From: JK To: alvinator Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 19:20:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Alv, Have to wait for the unveiling I guess.Who knows. How about Steinberger? JK

Subject: Re: Amazing sales statement From: JK To: J Campbell Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 07:12:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: J, I've been in piano sales for 21 years.I don't sell Boston or Kawai.I sell Yamaha,Mason Hamlin,Young Chang,Bosendorfer Schimmel.As for the salesmans explanation of Kawai vs Boston when you have to make a statement like that to try and sell a piano,it's time to get out of the business. JK

Subject: More on Bostons From: JCampbell To: JK Date Posted: Mon, Dec 13, 1999 at 00:28:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ultimately we bought a Yamaha C3. The local Boston dealer wouldn't discount even a bit from the published list price (not the quoted list which was around $7K higher). We didn't think the piano was worth this much more.

Subject: Pianos from Russia From: Pete To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 19:02:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am new to this forum and enjoy it a lot. Does anyone know if there are new pianos for sale in U.S. that were made in Russia or other parts of fomer Soviet Union?

Subject: Re: Pianos from Russia From: David Burton To: Pete Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 22:35:10 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.comd Message: Pianos made in Russia have not been too well thought of. Check some of the opinions on this board. I happen to own one. It was a gift from one of my clients. It was a nice enough little piano. Of course it's lots nicer now that I have invested some money into it; replaced the pedals, some minor adjustments here and there. This spring I think I'll consider some revoicing. It's a Borisova Belarus piano with the Schubert name on it. It was made in 1993 after the Soviet Union broke up. Bottom of the heap. Or is it? I wouldn't trade it for half a dozen piano makes you could name. It has a weighted keyboard, a full sized action with large wippins and nice hammers. The action is supposedly German and the hammers French. Yeah, yeah. The cabinet has been taken for an 'arts and crafts revival' period piece. But it isn't. You can see a picture of it on my website at http://www.geocities.com/dburton_1951/. It's just a bit on the crude side. How does it play? Well I can get a nice clear pianissimo when I want it which is very important to me and it has reasonable dynamic power too. Repitition has been improved about to the limit on it. Well it is an upright. It sounds 'mellow' rather than 'bright'. Definitely favors the 19th century repertoire over the 18th. It is developing its own voice as time goes on and it gets played more. Has a very nice couple octaves above middle c, even higher ranges have good singing tones. The bass was constructed in such a way as to allow more soundboard to be free to resonate in that area so it has a nice firm bass, not like most uprights. I like mine, but I have been told that they are rare. Most are not very good, you have to look for structural qualities to pick out a good one. Beware some Schuberts are made in China now rather than Russia or Belarus. The Chinese pianos are not very good at all. They're toys.

Subject: Re: Pianos from Russia From: Mike P. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 16:25:28 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: I recently bought a used J. Becker 6 yr old 46' upright from the original owner. It was sold new through a discount piano warehouse (non-transferable warranty). So far so good with it. Like David's piano the couple of octaves above middle C are very, very nice. The only downer so far is that after it's been moved it's started having a twang in the E below middle C. It sounds to me like one of the three strings has gone out of tune. Others don't hear it though. The touch seems lighter than the Weinbach that my daughter's piano teacher has (or maybe she's more shy when playing there) and the sound of the Becker seems a little more harsh. Does the distance of the Piano from the wall matter? The room also has a desk, computer, and bookcases - and wall to wall carpet. My daughter loves it, which is the first really big test. The second big test will come on the 29th of December when I've arranged for the tech who tunes the local symphony orchestra (supposedly tunes 2800 pianos a year by himself) to come and give it it's first tuning at our house (it was neglected by the first owner). This tech's reported to be a tougher critic than the tech who first evaluated the piano - so if he gives it passing marks I'll feel really good about it. I'll post the results after the tuning. We're hoping to have a similar experience to David. After we've corrected anything that needs to be done we hope to have a piano to be proud of. Most importantly a piano that our daughter (and later son perhaps) can enjoy developing their skills on.

Subject: Re: Pianos from Russia From: Joy To: Mike P. Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 19:19:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, please tell us what he says. Should be very educational, especially for us neophytes. Nice of you to share your piano experiences with us.

Subject: Huntington pianos From: James To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 12, 1999 at 12:35:52 (EST) Email Address: jamstar@fast.net Message: Can anyone tell me more about Huntington pianos? I have a small upright piano...I've checked the web to no avail. Any info would be appreciated..TY

Subject: Steinway vs Bluethner From: Paul To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 19:53:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are considering 2 pianos. A Steinway Model L (for which we were quoted a price of $60k, or a Bluethner Grand (6'4' I believe)with a list price of $57,000, but the dealer was willing to accept a 25% discount. Obviously, each dealer was sating that their brand was superior, what do you think?

Subject: Re: Steinway vs Bluethner From: Jim To: Paul Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 21:37:24 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: Paul:Both are outstanding pianos, and you need to figure out which one (if either) you like better. With respect to lasting value, the Steinway plainly is a better deal, as you will have a much easier time selling it. You ought to be able to get the Steinway (at least in an ebony finish) for around $40k; the Bluthner should cost in the mid to upper 30s. If the dealers are unwilling to come down off their rather high prices, let me know, and I would be happy to help you find a better deal on the identical pianos. By the way, have you looked at other European pianos such as Sauter, Grotrian, or Seiler? Jim

Subject: Re: Steinway vs Bluethner From: John D. To: Paul Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:35:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: $60K for a Steinway L? Yikes!!! Are you sure that price wasn't for a model B (still very high). I don't know much about the pricing on Bluthners. Personally I do not believe one is superior to the other. It really comes down to a matter of preference. I prefer the Steinway 'sound', but I'd be very happy to play a Bluthner as well. Check out some of the other recent posts regarding pricing. Certainly the dealers are entitled to a fair profit, operative word; fair. Later, John D.

Subject: Last time I looked S&S B was 57K! From: Mat D. To: John D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 00:57:20 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Last time I looked S&S B was 57K. That was list price so either you mistook the "L" for a "B", or your dealer is playing some games with pricing--Something S&S would like to know, I am sure.

Subject: Re: Last time I looked S&S B was 57K! From: Jim To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 05:55:59 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: I was in Seattle a few weeks ago. They had a a satin B for $49k and a gorgeous mahogany B for $56k -- both new. Jim

Subject: Re: Last time I looked S&S B was 57K! From: Mat D. To: Jim Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 23:07:27 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: That is very interesting how the retail price of these Steinways are different in different parts of the country. My local dealer (Hammel Music in Bloomfield Hills) was selling the S&S B for $57K. I know this for sure because I was shopping for a piano at the time, though I never got down to any kind of price negotiations because I had found my M&H that I bought. I did probe a little about pricing and the salesman seemed very firm on his pricing; he quoted me 'list' price and said not to bother looking out of state because they were also selling at this price. he went on to say that if another dealer from out of state were to sell at a discount (to me) that he would receive pressure from the company & might lose his S&S line. That sounds a bit severe to me --- I thought this was the land of the free!? Anyway, this whole conversation insulted me because I know darn well I could do a whole lot better than 57K--as you now point out. I was very happy to spend my money on the Mason & Hamlin, in light of this and they have been very good to me (the dealer was Evola Music in Bloomfield Hills, MI). regards, Mat D.

Subject: WHAT IS IT WORTH From: SCOTT J HERGERT To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 19:10:58 (EST) Email Address: sjhergert@nac.net Message: I have a Baldwin upright monarch player,Chicago,184420 patent yr.1905,806149. I was wondering how much it was worth new

Subject: Used Kimball vs. new Charles Walter? From: Young S. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:41:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Currently I'm considering buying a piano. In a local dealership I saw a 5-year old Kimball console at $1400. It seems to be in good condition. And in the same dealer I got a good deal on a new Charles Walter console (Traditional Oak) at $3950. I played piano as a little girl and nowadays am gaining interest back again. I'm definitely not a concert player. But I'm not a total beginner either. (I get to accompany church services without trouble.) Among the above two choices I like Walter's sound better. But I have to think of finance matter. Walter is 'affordable' through financing but... Which do you think is better between i) buying Kimball now and in a few years (when my finalcial situation is more favorable) switch to a better one if necessary ii) buying Walter now? And as an instrument what do you think of Kimball and Walter? I heard Kimball made very good pianos recently (before they got out of besiness). So does that include 5 years ago? And about Walter, are their pianos as good as they look? Lasting a lifetime? Compared to Yamaha U-series or Petrof high end piano? I'd appreciate your help. Young S.

Subject: Re: Used Kimball vs. new Charles Walter? From: Rae To: Young S. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 10:00:33 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've owned a Charles Walter console since the early 80's and have never had a moment of regret about the decision. At the time, the purchase price was a stretch for me too, but the piano has held its value and, of course, now the price is significantly higher than I paid. The price you were quoted for the Walter sounds very good. The Walter has a wonderful touch, has sounded great in my previous small apartments as well as a larger living room, and the finish and workmanship make it a lovely piece of furniture too. I've never had a bit of trouble with it. I'm kind of in your category- not a beginner and not a concert pianist. The Walter is a much better piano than I grew up with, and every time I play, I still find the Walter a pleasure to play. My impression of Kimball is that it is probably a more ordinary piano. I'd recommend going for the Walter. The price difference may sound like a lot now, but 10 years down the road you probably won't remember the price difference- but you'll still be happy with your piano. P.S. I'm going through some of the same questions myself now as I start looking at grands- I keep reminding myself to go for quality even if it costs more because I was happy with that decision last time- but the numbers are bigger for this transaction so its a bit tougher. (I'm also thinking about keeping the Walter even if I get a grand. The the amount I spent on it 18 years ago seems like a pittance now, the future replacement value would be higher for when I downsize again, the trade-in value is not huge - and I still like the piano. Of course, my husband thinks I'm nuts.)

Subject: Re: Used Kimball vs. new Charles Walter? From: ryan To: Rae Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:26:16 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I would go for the Walter over the Kimball in a heartbeat. The Walter would be a great investment (especially at that price!). If you continue to study and improve, you would outplay the Kimball much sooner than the Walter. Finally, if you like the way the Walter sounds better than the Kimball, the should be enough reason right there. Life is too short to own bad sounding pianos. Ryan

Subject: Any comments on Kimball? From: Young S. To: ryan Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:33:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for the replies. Now I know Walter is a great piano for sure. :) But I still want to hear about Kimball. I heard good comments about Kimball from 3 different dealers (2 who sold Kimball before they discontinued, and 1 that I'm not sure if they sold Kimball or not.) I want to know if their positive comments are biased. And if their meaning of 'good' piano was just 'good among average pianos'. Does anyone have experiences with Kimball? Any comments (bad or good, technical or even emotional) will be appreciated. :) Young S.

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: Larry To: Young S. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 22:47:00 (EST) Email Address: Lfletc6143@aol.com Message: Thanks for the replies. Now I know Walter is a great piano for sure. :) But I still want to hear about Kimball. I heard good comments about Kimball from 3 different dealers (2 who sold Kimball before they discontinued, and 1 that I'm not sure if they sold Kimball or not.) I want to know if their positive comments are biased. And if their meaning of 'good' piano was just 'good among average pianos'. Does anyone have experiences with Kimball? Any comments (bad or good, technical or even emotional) will be appreciated. :) Young S. --- As a Walter dealer, and a Kimball dealer before they got out, I must tell you the choice is like comparing a Chevy to a Mercedes. The only question I would have is the price you quoted on the Walter. If you have your prices right, the dealer has offered to sell you the piano for less than he paid for it. That makes me nervous, wondering what would motivate a legitimate Walter dealer to purposely lose money. Larry

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: Young S. To: Larry Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 09:13:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The dealer was having an anniversary sale at the time. If I remember correctly, the salesperson mentioned their regular price is about $4,600-700. The dealer was known to give a good price. It carries all kind of instruments besides piano. BTW, another piano dealer offered $5,000+ for Walter console in their 'hugest' clearance sale. Is the price more reasonable? Young

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: Andrew To: Young S. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 10:26:47 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Young, go to David Burton's WEB site to check out general piano info. It will be a good lesson for you to get you prepared for your piano pursuits. It will save you and others a lot time messaging each other back and forth. For Kimball and Walter, they are not even on the same plane. To me there's simply no comparision between the two. Walter is a better piano by a lot, I mean, a lot. Andrew

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: KJ To: Andrew Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 19:10:07 (EST) Email Address: kraf@email.com Message: Who is David Burton and what is his web site address ? --kj (a newbie here)

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: Mitch To: Andrew Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 17:32:06 (EST) Email Address: mciprian@maxoptix.com Message: I am interested in David Burton's web site but I don't have the URL. Could someone either post it in a reply or e-mail me directly. Thanks for your help.

Subject: Mr. David Burton's web site From: Young S. To: Mitch Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 03:43:48 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mr. Burton's web site address is: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ The address appears on several postings in the forum, but I figure that searching through old postings is not an easy task. Even though it is not my home page, I'm giving the address out here since Mr. Burton invited all the forum-ers to his website in some posting and by now his site is practically 'public' place to visit. (So, please, pardon me, David. :) ) Young S.

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: Young S. To: Andrew Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 16:39:47 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi, Andrew Yes, I have already checked out Mr. Burton's website. His site is one of my regular visits along with this forum to check out to learn any new things. Actually I posted the original question before he put the article about piano comparison. Now I'm better informed and my hesitation is between Walter, Petrof, and Schulze pollmann which I can't afford now. And I decided to wait a little more until my finalcial situation improves. For me to get this far, of course, the postings in this forum and David's articles have been of tremendous help. :) Young S.

Subject: Re: Any comments on Kimball? From: Judy To: Young S. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 23:13:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I just purchased a new Charles Walter 45" console and am happy to hear such great reviews. I chose it over a Yamaha for the touch, tone, and also because I was impressed by how well-made the pianos were. I have to agree with the skepticism around the great price you were quoted. If that's for real then it's a steal and you should go for it! I got mine for just under $6,000 and there wasn't much bargaining room at my dealer.

Subject: Finally made a purchase From: Tom To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 17:08:20 (EST) Email Address: tdbrun@worldnet.att.net Message: Hello, I wanted to thank everyone for their help in answering questions that I have posted to this forum over the past 9 months. I have finally purchased a new Kawai RX3. It has been sent to Kentucky to have a Piano Disc system installed. I am confident that I will be happy with my selection. I shopped at many dealers and I considered many brands (Yamaha, Boston, Petrof, Knabe and Baldwin). I discovered early on that I do prefer the Asian sound. One of the best dealers that I encounted was a Baldwin dealer. The Kawai dealer that I did purchase from has a fine reputation but this Baldwin dealer was very helpful and had a wonderful 25 year old Kawai KG5. It had a wonderful tone. Knowing that I was pushing the limits of the area of the living room I had to choose a slightly smaller but new piano. I have enjoyed this forum and I will continue to monitor it. Maybe I will be able to offer some help in the future, I searched and studied very hard to make a wise choice. Thanks again to all. Tom Brun

Subject: Petrof 131 Touch weight From: Roger To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 13:06:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am considering purchasing a new Petrof 131 upright and wanted to know from anyone familiar with this piano's touch weight if it would be too firm for a small child to begin learning to play the piano. I have heard through a dealer it is best that a child learn from the get go on an upright that closely simulates a grand piano. I am wondering if the 131 would be too hard on a child's fingers or all together frustrating. Thank you for your input.

Subject: Re: Petrof 131 Touch weight From: Sue To: Roger Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 13:55:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Roger, I recently made a switch from a Yamaha P-22 to a Steinway K-52 which has a significantly heavier touch. It only took a short period of time for my son age 11 and in his first year of lessons to make the transition. I anticipated that it would take me longer than it did. The touch feels very natural to me now. Hope that helps.

Subject: Straube From: jwk To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 00:49:27 (EST) Email Address: iamfree@southwindl.net Message: have Straube player piano style 'H' no. 57447 with ID 58558 any infor on age and value? jwk

Subject: Re: Straube From: Granholm Bros To: jwk Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 11:32:05 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: have Straube player piano style 'H' no. 57447 with ID 58558 any infor on age and value? jwk --- Age: 1928 Value: ???? Depends on many factors. Call a local piano technician for an inspection and advice session. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Piano pump From: Lee To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 09:37:37 (EST) Email Address: jlcloud@gci.net Message: I have a player piano that was converted from foot pump to elec., pump. It is not working. When I hook my household central vac to the piano it works fine. Any info on pump replacement options?

Subject: Re: Piano pump From: Granholm Bros To: Lee Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 11:20:42 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I have a player piano that was converted from foot pump to elec., pump. It is not working. When I hook my household central vac to the piano it works fine. Any info on pump replacement options? --- You may have to call more than one, but a piano technician should be able to replace the pump with a new one. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Piano prices & discounts From: Anne Marie To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 14:20:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm hoping to be in a financial position by spring to upgrade my piano. It's way past time. I read the Forum regularly (a terrific, free learning opportunity, btw), and the thing that amazes me is the prices that contributors quote for different brands of pianos. They're much lower than the prices I've seen in the shops. I've begun to 'window-shop' and had already ruled out several brands because I figured they were hopelessly out of my range. I guess I'm naive when it comes to piano shopping and am too accustomed to paying sticker price for everything. It appears that piano prices are somewhat negotiable, but it's still hard to believe that a dealer could/would drop their price $10-15K or more. I played a Bluethner that I loved, but it was $59K--about $16 more than I'll be able to spend. Do you think there's still hope? Suggestions, please!

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Jim To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 03:56:09 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: Anne Marie: You can get an absolutely outstanding piano in that price range -- from slightly used Steinways to new Mason and Hamlins to many of the smaller brands of excellent European pianos (Sauter, Seiler, Schulze Pollman). I'd be happy to help you in your search if you want; others have found the assistance useful (please see Jonathan's posting and the various replies concerning his new Mason and Hamlin BB).

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Mat D. To: Jim Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 14:46:44 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like a M&H A (5'8') from the picture that Jonathan posted. A great piano to be sure. Mat D.

Subject: It's a BB From: Jonathan To: Mat D. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 22:53:40 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: The piano is at an angle to the camera. I used a little digital and went halfway up the stairs to get it. When I get my 35mm film developed, it will be more clear. But the plate says BB and it's almost 7' long.

Subject: Re: It's a BB From: Mat D. To: Jonathan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 23:10:43 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Jonathan, sorry about that. Mine is ser. # 90637, what is yours? Mat D.

Subject: Re: It's a BB From: Jonathan To: Mat D. Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 02:38:44 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: No problem. Ours is #90949.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Mark Warren To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 16:54:20 (EST) Email Address: mreinhar@tanning.com Message: I'm hoping to be in a financial position by spring to upgrade my piano. It's way past time. I read the Forum regularly (a terrific, free learning opportunity, btw), and the thing that amazes me is the prices that contributors quote for different brands of pianos. They're much lower than the prices I've seen in the shops. I've begun to 'window-shop' and had already ruled out several brands because I figured they were hopelessly out of my range. I guess I'm naive when it comes to piano shopping and am too accustomed to paying sticker price for everything. It appears that piano prices are somewhat negotiable, but it's still hard to believe that a dealer could/would drop their price $10-15K or more. I played a Bluethner that I loved, but it was $59K--about $16 more than I'll be able to spend. Do you think there's still hope? Suggestions, please! I've actually found the prices quoted here to be higher than what I've encountered locally. Maybe it's a function of where I live (Colorado). I don't know what model Bluthner you are looking at, but I bought a Model 4 (6'10") last spring. The list price was well over $50k, but the local dealer here was selling them for $32k. (I think he's selling quite a few at that price!) The deals are definitely there if you find the right dealers and make the effort to negotiate. Good luck! ---

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: janine To: Mark Warren Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 20:00:09 (EST) Email Address: jfornarola@mindspring.com Message: I'm hoping to be in a financial position by spring to upgrade my piano. It's way past time. I read the Forum regularly (a terrific, free learning opportunity, btw), and the thing that amazes me is the prices that contributors quote for different brands of pianos. They're much lower than the prices I've seen in the shops. I've begun to 'window-shop' and had already ruled out several brands because I figured they were hopelessly out of my range. I guess I'm naive when it comes to piano shopping and am too accustomed to paying sticker price for everything. It appears that piano prices are somewhat negotiable, but it's still hard to believe that a dealer could/would drop their price $10-15K or more. I played a Bluethner that I loved, but it was $59K--about $16 more than I'll be able to spend. Do you think there's still hope? Suggestions, please! I've actually found the prices quoted here to be higher than what I've encountered locally. Maybe it's a function of where I live (Colorado). I don't know what model Bluthner you are looking at, but I bought a Model 4 (6'10") last spring. The list price was well over $50k, but the local dealer here was selling them for $32k. (I think he's selling quite a few at that price!) The deals are definitely there if you find the right dealers and make the effort to negotiate. Good luck! --- --- Mark - did you buy from Woods Piano Company?

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Anne Marie To: Mark Warren Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 07:58:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mark, Thanks for your reply. This gives me some hope at least, although I may have to do some traveling to find a price I can afford. I, too, was looking at the Model 4 in mahogany (I don't like ebony finish for the home) and it was $59+K. The dealer seemed pretty inflexible. I thought about compromising and buying the Model 6, but preferred the sound of the Model 4. I'll keep looking. Thanks for your encouragement.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Mat D. To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 08:12:57 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Anne Marie, The difference in the price of the Bluethner and the amount of money you have to spend is approx. 27%. I think that is well within what should be expected as a discount, so keep your chin up and go for it! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Anne Marie To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 09:52:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Mat, Thanks for your reply, too. This is the first time in my life I've bought a piano(I'm replacing the family Wurlitzer purchased in the 1940s), and I've got to admit that this journey I've embarked on seems strange and sort of scary. I assume that the retail price of a new piano is probably twice the amount that the dealer paid for it wholesale?? Any discount he gives represents a reduction of his profit. So if my Bluethner dealer paid $30K for the piano I'd like to buy, and would discount it 27%, he would make only $14K profit on it instead of the $30K he planned on. Can dealers do this and stay in business? Certainly retail prices must be calculated to some extent upon overhead expenses and the cost of doing business. I realize that my analysis of the piano business is pretty simplistic...as I said, I'm pretty naive in these matters. But the more I think about it, the more amazed I am that the retail piano business works at all. The Bluethner dealer I visited sells only imported German pianos: Schimmel, Seiler, Bosendorfer, Bluethner. On the two occasions I visited his store, I was the only customer. I can imagine that there may be weeks when no sales at all occur. How do dealers stay in business? Sorry I rambled so...the more thought I give this, the more perplexed I become and the more sympathy I have for the dealer.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: David Burton To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Sat, Dec 11, 1999 at 01:14:15 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Anne Marie, I'm glad anyone has any sympathy for the retailers of anything anymore and understands that what they are trying to do is to bring the goods worth considering closer to potential customers. As far as consumers frequently wondering about the profit a retailer makes, it seems to me that few are aware of the risks retailers take which more than justifies the high mark up on their goods. Pianos and cars have similar things going for them except that most people buy many more cars in their lifetimes than they ever will pianos. Nevertheless the question you raise is interesting; how can they afford to stay in business? They pay around 50% for a sticker price on a piano. If they can move it for 10% to 15% less than the sticker price on it they're usually happy enough since that same space in their store is free for something else and over the long run time is money. If someone moves 3 pianos a month for 10% to 15% less and someone else who moves only 1 piano for full price, if all the pianos are similar in price and value then the first retailer is going to make more money. Of course there comes a point where too much of a discount doesn't pay and if you suspect that it may mean that the retailer acquired the goods for cheaper than you think and yes it might have been a special for him too which he can pass on. The reason most piano dealers stay in business is 1) they usually have only one location (They aren't over-extended) and btw the best locations for piano stores are away from big shopping malls, 2) they sell the right quality product for the community they serve and 3) they are involved in the whys, wherefores and so ons of piano playing including piano teachers and technicians. They become good citizens of the communities they serve.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Jonathan To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 15:45:26 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Some dealers do well and some don't do as well. That is a fact of life. I may be a piano neophyte, but I do understand business quite well. As the others have said, make the dealer an offer. If it is worth it ot him or her, the offer will be accepted. If is is not worth it, it won't be accepted. One thing which may make you feel a little better, though, is that the sooner a piano moves, the higher the dealer's profit margin. Most dealers have essentially borrowed the money to get the piano on the floor, and they are paying interest on this money. On an expensive piano, this could easily be an added expense of $500-$600 per month. So if a piano has been sitting on the floor for any length of time, the dealer would be more apt accept a lower offer just to keep from having to pay that interest. You both win. You get a good price, and the dealer gets not only the benefit of being able to stop paying the interest and get the profit into his or her pockets, but the dealer may also be able to negotiate a better price from the factory based on his or her ability to move more pianos.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Jim To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 04:00:11 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: Anne Marie: It would be useful to know how much the dealer is charging for some of the other brands of pianos. Do you have any of this information, including model and finish? Are you set on buying a Bluthner? Are you willing to buy outside your area (or at least shop outside your area)?

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: ryan To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 10:39:54 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I wouldn't worry about how the dealer is doing. There is a local dealership here that sells expensive pianos that I wondered the same thing about. However, while visiting the store weekly for the last several months I see that he actually sells a LOT of pianos, even the expensive ones. I now believe that he is doing better than I am! So, I wouldn't worry about making an offer. The dealer will decide whether he wants to take the offer or not, and the worse he can say is 'no', or give a counter offer. There are a lot of dealers that mark up their pianos 30% and then put them on 'sale' for, you guessed it, 30% off. It's worth getting Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' and order the annual supplement to find out what the 'real' retail price is for various pianos. Also, there are some dealers that will do lot of prep work and factor this into the price, while other dealers don't do any prep work and offer deeper discounts. You will wind up paying close to the same in the end, though, when you buy the deeply discounted piano and have to keep calling in your technician to fix things.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Mat D. To: Anne Marie Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 23:07:11 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Anne Marie, I am not an expert in retail either, but I would not concern myself with the retailers finances--he's probably doing better than either of us; the very worst that can happen is he says no, i would take a deep breath and go in (after you find the piano you want, that is) and make my offer. That is what I did-- and a couple of others here on the Piano forum, and we ended up getting the pianos we loved for a price we could afford. Anne Marie, I'm trying to encourage you because I tend to have the same feelings you do about the retailer, but once I realized that the worst that could happen is that he would say no, I stopped worrying about it--I wanted a piano & made a fair offer and he took it --- everybody is happy!!! Let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Piano prices & discounts From: Rob S. To: Mat D. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 12:43:22 (EST) Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com Message: Anne Marie, Don't agonize over the dealer's profit margin or cost factors. You don't - and won't - have the information to calculate how much the dealer has in this piano, and how much of a profit margin he/she needs. On the other hand, you do have the information necessary to calculate how much YOU are willing to pay, and this is something the dealer won't know until you are ready to tell him/her. You should not be concerned you're going to hurt his/her feelings with an offer. Think of it this way, you have ventured out on more than one winter day to come to his store. Any offer you make, even his cost, should be well received, even though it may not be accepted. It may give you a starting point of strength. Offer cost, when he/she says, 'No', ask how much over cost does he/she need to make a deal. You'll be surprised how difficult it will be for him/her to mouth 15 or 20 thousand dollars as a profit. So tough, he/she will do everything possible not to say anything, but be persistent - you know your botton line, you are just trying to find theirs. Mat D. is right. Ultimately all they can say is no. If they do, you move up until you've hit your price, if there is still no deal, then you move on. You won't feel good makeing a bad deal, and sometimes the best deal is the one you don't make. A last point. Keep in mind there is a factory in Germany making these pianos. You are not bidding on the last one. They aren't Doritos or Fords but they'll make more. If he/she makes $8,000 on yours, he/she will hope to make more on the next one that comes in. Best of luck.

Subject: Steinway Artist From: N.P. To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 13:27:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: First of all I 'd like to say that this is a very informative forum. I learned so much about how to buy a piano. I have a question for you all. When I was looking at the Steinway web page I came across the rosters of 'Steinway Artists'. What does that mean? When Abby Simon came to give a master class at the U of Minn last summer he performed on a Baldwin. Is he a Baldwin artist? And how does Steinway get its roster? Any one?

Subject: Re: Piano teachers at colleges & universities From: Joy To: N.P. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 02:27:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do you know which liberal arts colleges or universities have the best piano instructors? My son is currently a high school junior. Knows he wants to major in physics, but wants to be surrounded by liberal arts AND minor in music, getting as much piano instruction as his schedule allows. N.P: Looks to me from your postings you might have some ideas, having been through the college research track. We know where some of the best physics departments are (ie UC Berkeley, Cornell, Princeton, Yale, U of Chicago). But ...piano performance, too? I've heard some of these schools are better for composing or theory, but not necessarily piano performance. Ideas, anyone?

Subject: Re: Piano teachers at colleges & universities From: N.P. To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 13:02:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, Most of the well known artists who also teach, are concentrated on the East coast and in conservatory environment. However, most of these schools allow cross registration, for example, John Hopkins with the Peabody Conservatory, Julliard and MSM with Barnard Columbia, the Cleveland Institute of Music with Case Western, Oberlin Conservatory with Oberlin College and if I remember correctly,New England Cons. with Tuft.I don't know very much about schools that are strong in Physics or Science and Technology. But Northwestern University has a strong piano performance as does U of Michigan in Ann Arbor. And both of these schools have high academic standing as well. I believe Yale has excellent rep. for post grad. music and theater programs but not for undergrad. Generally, the HYPS don't have strong music performance program for undergrad. Those schools' music depts. lean heavily towards academically oriented reseach in musicology for post grad works. Oh, Boston U is another one that you should check out. You and your son have plenty of time to do your research. It can be very overwhelming. At times you will feel so loss and confused. He should start learning and decide on the audition pieces now. Old pieces can be brought back and polished. Most schools have a list of the required pieces on their web sites. And don't forget his talent as a pianist may well earn him scholarship money. Make a good quality audio tape of his playing(unedited) and have several copies ready to go in the event that he can't be at the audition in person. Have fun. N.P.

Subject: Re: Piano teachers at colleges & universities From: Joy To: N.P. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 17:55:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: N.P., Thanks for your reply. It's much appreciated. In your research, did you come across Lawrence University? They appear to have a fine physics department as well as an excellent School of Music. And Bard College? I must say I'm impressed with the director of that school, the conductor Leon Bottstein. A music conductor leading a liberal arts college, what a concept. You are right: Reviewing all the available information is quite daunting. Funny thing is, I feel all the energy we've invested into looking for the best piano we could find was a practice run for our upcoming intensive research into colleges! Thanks for sharing what you've culled from your music studies/college search! Is your daughter happy with life overall at U Mich so far? All the best, Joy PS: I don't think they have physics at the Ann Arbor campus; perhaps at the other two. What does HYPS stand for?

Subject: Re: Piano teachers at colleges & universities From: David Burton To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 00:54:21 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Joy, I know that the kind of college setting that 'works' really has to be a good fit with the kind of person the student is, but I really like the Boston area as an environment for both physics and music and if at all possible I'd consider trying to get him into MIT. There are any number of wonderful music programs that are available in the Boston area that are accepted by MIT. Of the schools you mentioned I like UC Berkeley the best. They still do have an excellent physics program although I think MIT and the whole Boston area surpass them, UC's music department is still pretty good. For what it's worth.

Subject: Re: Piano teachers at colleges & universities From: Joy To: David Burton Date Posted: Fri, Dec 10, 1999 at 02:01:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, Boston will be on our itinerary in our campus visit blitz, beginning next spring, along with NYC, Chicago, and a few other whistle stops, like Appleton (Lawrence U) and Oberlin. We've visited Berkeley several times, and it's high on my son's list -- he loves S.F. However, he wants to explore all possible options. My son is balking at the idea of attending a techie school (ie MIT, CalTech). Doesn't want to attend a music conservatory either. Says he wants to be surrounded by other students studying liberal arts, which I think is probably a healthier approach. It's interesting to find so many physicists are also musicians -- not surprising really. I know we will have to visit the schools themselves and talk directly with students and faculty to get a real 'feel' for each place. I want to get a good list together, given my son's criteria. It's not difficult to discover which schools have the best physics programs, but it's harder to discover which ones have inspiring piano instructors, aside from the ones with music conservatories. Famous performers are not necessarily good teachers! We met a piano instructor who transferred from UC Santa Barbara to UCLA when she found out an exceptionally good piano instructor taught there -- but this was quite some time ago. My son visited UCLA recently.Good physics dept, but the music dept seemed more geared toward eletronic music, theory and composition -- the entertainment industry, you know. I guess what I'm looking for are insider tips. Names. Other people you piano professionals and piano-lovers out there might have encountered in your piano activities who might know. . . .

Subject: Re: Piano teachers at colleges & universities From: N.P. To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:09:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, Lawrence University in Appleton, Wisconsin is a good private liberal arts school and yes they have a very good music department. Don't know about Bard. My daughter is at the U of Minnesota Twincities, her home turf, not U of Mich. She has been at U of M full time since her senior year,participateing in Post Secondary Enrollment Option. It's a program in Minnesota where any qualified high school junior or senior can take college courses and recieves credits toward the high school dip. and college credits and it's paid for by the state. She wanted badly to go out East in a conservatory setting and I can understand that. So this year is a bit of an anti climax for her after all the hard work we did last year. I'm sorry, too lazy to type out the whole thing. HYPS are Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Standford. N.P.

Subject: Re: Steinway Artist From: David Burton To: N.P. Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 11:24:24 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: If N. P. is asking whether some concert artist's have sold their names for use by Steinway in their ads, the answer is yes, certainly they have. Most other piano companies have not ventured to use this technique. Baldwin has, a few others. If I had any name as a concert artist and let's say I owned a Mason & Hamlin BB, would that qualify me to be a Mason & Hamlin concert artist? I tend to think that there is advertising on one hand and then there are pianos, which can only be explored on a personal level. If I walk into a piano store and happen to fall in love with the Schultze-Pollmann, does that make any difference to any of these Steinway concert artists? Why many of them would do the same. Steinway, like many things that emanate from New York City, has been very successful based on its advertising and distribution network which is all superb. But as we all know, those of us who have played many Steinways, and at this point I've lost count how many I've played, can all tell you that the experience of playing a Steinway that's in top form is a beautiful experience. Steinway pianos are the ACME, everything else that IS a piano can be judged based on them. So, LOL, do the artists who have sold the rights to their names through this or that trade off to Steinway disagree with what so many of us have felt playing Steinways? By no means. They are associating themselves with The Best. Now, why don't thousands more just rush out there and put themselves in a lot of hawk to buy Steinways if they're The Best? Well, one is of course the cost of a Steinway. The best is never cheap. But the other is that there are a lot of very interesting pianos out there that aren't Steinways and can offer their own unique experiences. Half a dozen or more of these are thrilling experiences; Mason & Hamlin, Baldwin (artist series), Forster, Grotrian, old Chicks and Knabes, Ivers & Pond, Schulze-Pollmann. The artists are just acknowledging what most of us have recognized all our lives concerning pianos, that Steinway certainly had the name, sound and touch characteristics to be reckoned with by all comers.

Subject: Re: Steinway Artist From: N.P. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 12:58:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you Macduff and David. I suspected as much but wasn't sure. I have seen Steinway ads with different artist names but became curious when I saw my daughter's teacher's name on their roster on the web page. David, in your list of grands, even though the S&S,as you say, the best, is not the most expensive. Why would any one want to get,say the Fazioli, the most expensive one on your list instead? Is this a silly question? Please bear with me for I'm not a player. My daughter who is a freshman in piano performance absolutely adores the S&S, a particular one at Borden Hall at Manhattan School of Music. She played it at her audition for admission last March. Ever since then THAT S&S has been her bench mark. When the piano that she started on,an old Acrosonic spinet "died" five years ago,my husband got a hold of Larry Fine's Piano Book and decided to get a 52" Petrof for her. Then she got a new teacher.Came to find out that her new piano teacher prefered her students to have a grand at home. Oh well. She praticed on that Petrof and came to love it till this summer we decided to reward this kid who uses her head and heart to deny herself her dream,a chance to study with Ruth Loredo at MSM, to save us and herself from a huge student loan. She tried Petrofs, S&S's, Yamaha's but none came close to the S&S in New York. She came close to decide on a Yamaha 6'10 but wasn't sure about the bright sound when we found a restored 1893 Bechstein for a little less than the brand new Yamaha which the dealer wanted $23K+ her Petrof+tax),so we got it. Her present teacher (the S&S artist) loves it. But now that I've stumbled on to this forum and discovered that there're a lot more in the market than just what's in my area I wish we had explore some more. But the horse is out of the barn. I just hope that we did her right. Her Bechstein plate has 'B' and a 'CBechstein Berlin' on the right hand corner closest to the keyboard and E1 on the left corner on the other end of the piano. What ever do they mean? Am I correct in assuming that B is the model size.What does E1 signify then? It has a plain satin ebony case with plain music desk that was beautifully refinished. Comment please. Thank you. An interesting occurance, if my daughter's last spring auditions for colleges were of any indication, classical music may be on the upswing with young people. MSM had to arrange two days of auditions for piano undergrad alone, for the first time. N.P.

Subject: Re: Steinway Artist From: Joy To: N.P. Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 20:17:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: N.P says:'An interesting occurance, if my daughter's last spring auditions for colleges were of any indication, classical music may be on the upswing with young people. MSM had to arrange two days of auditions for piano undergrad alone, for the first time' --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- Hope so! That's a good sign! Nice to read other parent's stories on their choice of piano and its effect on their child's musical education. Your daughter is very lucky that you are so supportive.

Subject: Re: increased interest in classical music for young people From: Joy To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 15:22:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just an afterthought to this theme: I feel that it's important for parents to encourage and cultivate their children's interest in music (for any of the arts, for that matter). I enjoyed reading of your search for the best piano you could reasonably obtain for your daughter, which in turn fosters her own musical exploration. I only mention this because I run into too many parents who, when push comes to shove, will short-change their kids midway in their music education -- they think pianos are 'too expensive', and cannot make the great leap from a keyboard to a decent piano. Getting a high quality piano definitely elevated not only my son's playing, but his appreciation of a wider variety of music. Having a good instrument does make a difference. No wonder your daughter's teacher prefers grands for her students. I do believe there are more parents and more parents on the same wavelength as you however, and collectively this influence has to have a positive effect on an increase of interest in piano performance studies and classical music. I think my son would envy a jump from a 52" Petrof to a fine rebuilt grand.

Subject: Re: increased interest in classical music for young people From: N.P. To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 11:27:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, You are right. I have noticed that my daughter ventures into more complicated music and her pianism improves each time she gets a new piano. Now I understand what her first piano teacher meant when she told me that we had to find a new teacher and a new piano because she's outgrowing both. I wasn't very happy with the news because that year my daughter started high school. She had been in a small private school till then. Needless to say she was nervous and didn't need to deal with one more change. But she came through it. We are very fortunate that we happened on a fine first teacher with a beautiful spirit. She recommended a few names and even called them to introduce us. Her subsequent teachers are as equally outstanding. They are so nurturing. They would call to wish her luck the night before a competition for example. When she had her senior recital all three came. She is one lucky girl but she is not perfect. A typical teenager, she pushes and test us. I hope your son has a good experience with his teacher(s) and is enjoying his new piano. I know mine is.

Subject: Re: Steinway Artist From: David Burton To: N.P. Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 19:29:42 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: N.P. Well you couldn't have gone very wrong choosing a Bechstein B, that would normally be a 6' 10' grand or thereabouts for your daughter. As for the MSM and that Steinway there, if it's the same one I played, the one in the auditorium, yes that's a great one. But hats off to you for getting Ruth Laredo to be her teacher as I truly hold her in highest regard both as a pianist and a teacher. Your daughter must be pretty good.

Subject: Re: Steinway Artist From: N.P. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 21:27:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Yes, the Steinway was in the auditorium. After the audition she came out and said to me that she had just found the piano of her dream. It was a very emotional time at our house last spring when she had to decide which school to attend. New York City seems to have a magnet that pulls her. Having been accepted into Ruth Laredo's studio was an icing on the cake. But the cost of going there is to us astronomical. I have no doubt that she will try again for post grad work. Thank you for your reply. N.P.

Subject: Re: Steinway Artist From: MacDuff To: N.P. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 14:35:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think this means that they use the Steinway piano as their personal piano for 'home practice,' and that they participate in a program where Steinway provides pianos for their concert and recital appearances through the nearest local dealer for the cost of moving the piano only, with no other rental fees. I don't think this procludes using other 'exsisting' pianos at performance venues. As a youngster, I participated several years in a competetion sponsored by Baldwin and ended up actually playing on Baldwin, Steinway, and even Kimball, depending on the venue of the competition.

Subject: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Dave and Anne To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 14:37:08 (EST) Email Address: anniemd@earthlink.net Message: We've been shopping around for new uprights and have narrowed the search to a 50-inch Petrof and a 49-inch Schulze Pollmann, the latter of which we know less about. The Schulze Pollmann comes with Renner action, but we'd have to go the next size up to get that on the Petrof. Could anyone give us a comparison of the two, including sound quality vs. price?

Subject: Re: Schulze Pollman From: David Burton To: Dave and Anne Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 14:25:35 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I just added a page about Schulze-Pollman with a link on my webpage at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ Under 'The Piano'. They have an excellent website at http://www.schulzepollmann.com/. But you can't get the estimated prices from there. You can get the latest supplement to Larry Fine's book if you want to know more. The 190F 6' 3' grand, which is the size of a Baldwin L but sounds quite different, runs between $27,900 and $31,900 depending on which finishes you order.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: David To: Dave and Anne Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 21:36:47 (EST) Email Address: dhallmd@mindspring.com Message: We've been shopping around for new uprights and have narrowed the search to a 50-inch Petrof and a 49-inch Schulze Pollmann, the latter of which we know less about. The Schulze Pollmann comes with Renner action, but we'd have to go the next size up to get that on the Petrof. Could anyone give us a comparison of the two, including sound quality vs. price? --- Did you make any decisions? I have been looking at the Schulze Pollman 190F grand and have been very impressed. However, I can't find anyone who is familiar with it except the dealer, which makes me nervous. The piano seems to be in a different league than Yamaha, which I'm also looking at.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: David Burton To: David Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 01:03:08 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: David says, 'I have been looking at the Schulze Pollman 190F grand and have been very impressed. However, I can't find anyone who is familiar with it except the dealer, which makes me nervous. The piano seems to be in a different league than Yamaha, which I'm also looking at.' I tried to explain this in an earlier post; the 190F IS in a different league from Yamaha, they're in the same league with Forster, Bechstein, Ibach, Grotrian, almost Fazioli. They use the same kinds of wood for their soundboard as Fazioli. They have a German piano making tradition behind them. I've played one and I might say that it was one of those pianos that looked, sounded and played expensive so I never really thought about mentioning them here, but yes these pianos are above average for sure. I wouldn't bother about dealer service anyway. If I could get a good deal on one, which would be anything less than $28K I'd go for it. They are one of the best new pianos in the world right now.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Larry To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 22:33:27 (EST) Email Address: Lfletc6143@aol.com Message: David says, 'I have been looking at the Schulze Pollman 190F grand and have been very impressed. However, I can't find anyone who is familiar with it except the dealer, which makes me nervous. The piano seems to be in a different league than Yamaha, which I'm also looking at.' I tried to explain this in an earlier post; the 190F IS in a different league from Yamaha, they're in the same league with Forster, Bechstein, Ibach, Grotrian, almost Fazioli. They use the same kinds of wood for their soundboard as Fazioli. They have a German piano making tradition behind them. I've played one and I might say that it was one of those pianos that looked, sounded and played expensive so I never really thought about mentioning them here, but yes these pianos are above average for sure. I wouldn't bother about dealer service anyway. If I could get a good deal on one, which would be anything less than $28K I'd go for it. They are one of the best new pianos in the world right now. --- If you're still interested in a Schulze Pollamnn, send me an email. I'm a dealer. I will sell you the grand in ebony polish for 23K plus minimal freight charge, 24K for inlaid Mahogany style, new, in the crate. Larry

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Larry To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 22:30:54 (EST) Email Address: Lfletc6143@aol.com Message: David says, 'I have been looking at the Schulze Pollman 190F grand and have been very impressed. However, I can't find anyone who is familiar with it except the dealer, which makes me nervous. The piano seems to be in a different league than Yamaha, which I'm also looking at.' I tried to explain this in an earlier post; the 190F IS in a different league from Yamaha, they're in the same league with Forster, Bechstein, Ibach, Grotrian, almost Fazioli. They use the same kinds of wood for their soundboard as Fazioli. They have a German piano making tradition behind them. I've played one and I might say that it was one of those pianos that looked, sounded and played expensive so I never really thought about mentioning them here, but yes these pianos are above average for sure. I wouldn't bother about dealer service anyway. If I could get a good deal on one, which would be anything less than $28K I'd go for it. They are one of the best new pianos in the world right now. ---

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Larry To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 22:30:09 (EST) Email Address: Lfletc6143@aol.com Message: David says, 'I have been looking at the Schulze Pollman 190F grand and have been very impressed. However, I can't find anyone who is familiar with it except the dealer, which makes me nervous. The piano seems to be in a different league than Yamaha, which I'm also looking at.' I tried to explain this in an earlier post; the 190F IS in a different league from Yamaha, they're in the same league with Forster, Bechstein, Ibach, Grotrian, almost Fazioli. They use the same kinds of wood for their soundboard as Fazioli. They have a German piano making tradition behind them. I've played one and I might say that it was one of those pianos that looked, sounded and played expensive so I never really thought about mentioning them here, but yes these pianos are above average for sure. I wouldn't bother about dealer service anyway. If I could get a good deal on one, which would be anything less than $28K I'd go for it. They are one of the best new pianos in the world right now. ---

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: David To: Dave and Anne Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 21:34:21 (EST) Email Address: dhallmd@mindspring.com Message:

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: David Burton To: Dave and Anne Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 23:40:35 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Shulze-Pollmann, a combination of two German piano companies operating out of Italy since the end of the second world war makes first class pianos. The upright models 126E and 117E are respectable in every aspect; sound, touch, appearance and come in a variety of finishes. They have fallboards and music racks like Yamaha U series uprights. Their grand, the 190F is a stunning 6' grand that compares favorably to the best in the world, the one I played felt similar to a Mason & Hamlin A but maybe even a bit more suave in tone. If Renner is 'the magic bullet' some people seem to think it is, then all these pianos are Renner throughout including Renner Mahogany core hammers. I haven't made a big deal out of this company since I thought they were fairly rare, like Fazioli, and expensive, also like Fazioli. For the record, if I was offered a Schulze-Pollmann upright for the same price as a Petrof I'd take the Schulze-Pollmann.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Dave & Anne To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 11:05:46 (EST) Email Address: anniemd@earthlink.net Message: Thanks for the information--very helpful. The 126E 49-inch Shulze-Pollman was marked down from $14+k to $8.5K at a 'liquidation sale' held at a piano dealer that seemed questionable, so I'd be concerned about follow-up service after purchase. The 50-inch Petrof is offered by a much more reputable dealer, for about $7.5K, and I'd have fewer worries about follow-up service. I've since heard the new 50-inch Petrofs have the Renner action, though I suppose that will jack the price up. As for what difference it makes to me, I found the pricier ($10+k?) 52-inch Petrof with Renner action a more responsive instrument, but could it be from the larger piano's size as much as its action? The salesman (from the more reputable dealer) said he found Renner action vs. Petrof's own action to be comparable. I grew up playing a Baldwin grand, and wonder if this is coloring my judgement on the pianos' actions. Any thoughts?

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: DSSR To: Dave & Anne Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:31:32 (EST) Email Address: DS1@jhu.edu Message: The price of the 50' Petrof sounds a bit high. I was quoted about same amount for the 52' delivered, 100 miles away. I thought the Petrof had a great sound and felt very confident about the dealer, located in Philly. He prepped the instruments beautifully.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Joy To: DSSR Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 14:00:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ditto on DSSR's comment. The prices he mentioned is about the same in my neighborhood (so CA) -- bargained down from what was displayed on the price tags. Seems to me dealers mark up these pianos a lot.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Joy To: DSSR Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 14:00:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ditto on DSSR's comment. The prices he mentioned is about the same in my neighborhood (so CA) -- bargained down from what was displayed on the price tags. Seems to me dealers mark up these pianos a lot.

Subject: Re: Petrof v. Schulze Pollman From: Mat D. To: Dave and Anne Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 16:50:47 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Dave & Anne, I don't know too much about Schulze Plllman but new Petrof 50' now have Renner action. Check with your dealer, if he has a new Petrof 50' upright , it should have full Renner action.

Subject: Trayser From: M. Miles To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:55:16 (EST) Email Address: m-r-miles@msn.com Message: A co-worker has a Trayser piano for sale ($250.00)-mfr by Trayser Piano Co., Richmond, Ind., Oak, #106126, style #31. I can find absolutely nothing on this-history,value,good,junk? Any info appreciated.

Subject: History of Kohler and Campbell's piano From: Maki To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:24:19 (EST) Email Address: msmaki@aol.com Message: Hi, I have purchased a mini grand piano by Kohler and Campbell. I was wondering if anyone out there would know anything about this piano. The only thing I know about is that they are assembled in Korea. Thanks

Subject: Proud New Parents of a mason & Hamlin From: Jonathan To: All Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 19:38:28 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Well, our Mason & Hamlin was delivered last night. You can see it and Irina at http://www.jbiinc.com/piano/irinapiano.htm . She was on it for about four hours after it arrived. The price was very good on it (less than ($30k), and since we loved the piano so much, that made the choice of it over the Bosendorfer easy). We had help in getting such a good price, so we are making a contribution to the Weissenfluh Fund (6401 Marjory Lane, Bethesda, MD, 20817). The fund provides for piano lessons for disadvantaged children. Thanks to Joy, Cork, Jim, and all others who helped us in this evolution. We are pretty happy about this. Irina's Mason & Hamlin www.jbiinc.com/piano/irinapiano.htm

Subject: Re: Proud New Parents of a mason & Hamlin From: JK To: Jonathan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 07:32:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jonathan, Congradulations!! I've been following your search. Enjoy :) JK

Subject: Re: Weissenfluh Fund From: Joy To: Jonathan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:10:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Where can I get more information about the Weissenfluh Fund? How did you learn about it? How do they distribute funds and to whom? Disadvantaged children: would that include kids with learning disabilities? My son and some friends are looking for ways to promote learning music to kids with no access to music lessons. That's why I was curious about this fund. Joy PS: I did a search through Yahoo, AltaVista and Webcrawler, and couldn't find anything about it.

Subject: Re: Weissenfluh Fund From: Jonathan To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:58:51 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: I got the information from Jim. He helped me out a lot here, and this is one of his favorite charities. Jim, can you enlighten us more? You asked for Irina's favorite piece so far which she has played. It is Beethoven's 'Fur Elise.' Art at Artistic Pianos, though, played Chopin's '7th Waltz ' at her request. This is her favorite piece of all, and this is what she is going to learn to play. As for me, I can barely plink out 'Ode to Joy' and 'When the Saints Go Marching In.'

Subject: Re: Weissenfluh Fund From: Rich To: Jonathan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 20:07:37 (EST) Email Address: RicDfenbek@aol.com Message: I often help Jim find pianos, mostly for private parties looking to upgrade or purchase a piano for the first time. As mentioned Jim charges no fees except for a contribution (usually $100) to the Weissenfluh Fund. It's great fun for us since we get a chance to play different pianos and it provides I believe, a helpful service to those in the market for a piano. I should point out that neither of us are piano techs nor pretend to be so we always recommend a qualified tech inspect the piano being considered.

Subject: Re: Weissenfluh Fund From: Jim To: Jonathan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 03:48:09 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: The Weissenfluh Fund is run by the Mongtomery County (MD) Music Teachers Ass'n. It provides music lessons to children who cannot afford them. I raise money for the Fund by helping people find the pianos that they want at a good price. As you know, this is sometimes difficult because of the local monopolies for each type of piano. All proceeds (I ask for a $100 contribution for the assitance) go directly to the Weissenfluh Fund. Judging from the amount that Jonathan (and others) have saved on their pianos, I believe that the assistance can be quite useful. Please let me know if you know of anyone who may be interested in this service, as it saves money and is for an excellent cause.

Subject: Re: Weissenfluh Fund From: Joy To: Jonathan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:44:39 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jonathan, I didn't realize the owner's name was Art, thus 'Artistic Pianos'. Makes sense. I've always liked 'Ode to Joy'.

Subject: Re: Weissenfluh Fund From: Jonathan To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 12:36:25 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Maybe not when you hear me play it!

Subject: Re: Proud New Parents of a mason & Hamlin From: Mat D. To: Jonathan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 23:49:20 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Jonathan, Congratulation and welcome to the Mason & Hamlin family!

Subject: Re: Proud New Parents of a mason & Hamlin From: Joy To: Jonathan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 23:09:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Wow, Jonathan. What a lovely photo. What a lovely piano! Hey, it's a MASON & HAMLIN!!! I must say, I still get a kick when a fellow pianophile gasps when you utter the phrase "Mason & Hamlin". Gawd, what an elitist I've become -- but who cares. It's a wonderful instrument! I'm really happy and thrilled for you both. Boy, you did good price-wise! Can my son call you some time in the future to bargain on his behalf when he upgrades to a grand? :) What a wonderful way to start the millenium. Hmmmm, I can hear that Chopin Prelude now. . . . Best, Joy PS: Just curious: what are Irina's favorite pieces so far on your new M&H?

Subject: Re: Proud New Parents of a mason & Hamlin From: Jon To: Jonathan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:52:27 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Jonathan: I tried to see your new baby on the website. It would not let me in. I checked the address 2 times. Maybe we are too far away in Utah!! Jon

Subject: British pianos From: Dean To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 13:08:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Like many Forum readers, I'm currently trying to track down the 'perfect piano.' I've done some traveling and played many pianos already, and will probably play many more before I 'sign on the dotted line.' One thing I'm curious about is the fact that I've never seen any reference to/recommendation for or against/or inquiry about any of the pianos manufactured in Great Britain. According to the Piano Book, there are a number of brands: Broadwood, Welmar, Knight, Woodchester, etc.; apparently these are all available in the U.S. I've never seen or heard any of them myself. A recent discussion of the tonal quality of American and European pianos caused me to wonder about the tonal quality of these pianos. Where are they marketed? Should I try to locate and play some of them before I make my purchase? What is the general quality of them? Any answers out there?

Subject: Kawai Sales Statement re bostons From: J Campbell To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:34:28 (EST) Email Address: jcampbell Message:

Subject: August Forster vs Baldwin R From: Curt To: All Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 20:35:32 (EST) Email Address: appledaddy@webtv.net Message: I got thrown a curve today as I continued my search for the best price on a Baldwn R. I was speaking by phone with a dealer who told me that if I am considering the R (which he stocks), I owe it to myself to try out the 5'7' August Forster 170, which he also stocks. I quickly flipped to the August Forster listing in the 1999-2000 Annual Supplement to THE PIANO BOOK by Larry Fine to discover that the 'standard' list price is about $10,000 more than the same finish Baldwin R. I questioned the dealer about this and he said he was familiar with the list and it was wrong....not even close...and that when I came in he would quote me the actual selling prices. He said the Forster would be more than the Baldwin, but in the same 'ballpark'. My questions: Is the August Forster in the same league as the Baldwin R as far as quality goes? Any other reason to stay away from this instrument? The dealer told me to expect a significant difference in tone and touch between the two. I just want to be sure that if I prefer playing the Forster, and if I can swing the price, that it is a sound instrument from a reputable manufacturer. The insigts I gain here have invaluabe to me in this process. Thanks in advance for your comments.

Subject: Re: August Forster vs Baldwin R From: Charlie To: Curt Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 18:36:45 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Unquestionably the Foerster is in a much higher league than the Balwin, not to say that Baldwins are at all bad. The dealer may be able to give you a better price for a number of reasons, including having stock that hasn't moved. If people are buying Baldwins--or any other brand--today (for whatever reason) he may want to free up his inventory dollars to invest in stock that moves. No business can afford to have stock that sits around. As far as the 'list price', you can never be sure with imported products. Dollar/mark fluctuations change daily. And if the mark is high, the importer may have to sacrifice profit in order to sell any units. It's that or not sell them, and reduced profit is usually better than no profit. Good luck in your search, but I think you would probably have to be crazy not to at least play the Foerster and find out the actual selling price.

Subject: Re: August Forster vs Baldwin R From: Niles Duncan To: Curt Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 04:06:04 (EST) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: 'Is the August Foerster in the same league as the Baldwin R as far as quality goes?' No. It's in a much higher league. The August Foerster is a very high quality German piano comparable to such things as Bechsteins, Grotrians, etc. It is however a European sounding piano, and if a Baldwin R is your ideal you may not like the sound of the Foerster. I've owned a Foerster 215 (7'2') for the last 10 years. It is a beautiful concert quality piano and has served me very well. Owing to access to the west (they are made in eastern Germany) they have become better since 1989 when I got mine. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles, CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: August Forster vs Baldwin R From: Curt To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:30:01 (EST) Email Address: appledaddy @webtv.net Message: Niles, Thanks for the insights. You used the term,'european sounding piano'. While I would never want to attempt to describe sound myself, would you mind explaining that a bit. I do recognize the difference in sound/tone between comparably sized Baldwins, Yamahas, Kawaiis, Petrofs and a few old rebuilds that I have recently played. A Baldwin L was the most exciting thing that I have played. I don't even go near the higher end stuff because I can't afford them. In fact, I'll probably be maxxed out at around the Baldwin R. But hey, if that August Forster does it for me, and the price is within reach, I might dig a little deeper. So, can you take a shot at characterizing a European sound?

Subject: Re: August Forster vs Baldwin R From: Mat D. To: Curt Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 09, 1999 at 00:03:27 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Curt, Europeen vs. American sound... It all has to do with overtones and complexity of tone. One is not better than the other, just different. The reason these pianos have a different tone is in thier scale design. The 'American' sound is a very complex (lots of overtones) sound, with the Steinway and Mason & Hamlin having the most complex tone. Baldwin has a similar tonality but not quite to the degree of these other two. The 'European' tone is a less complex--leaner, cleaner tone--some call it 'thinner'. Bosendorfer, Schimmel, Bechstein, Grotrian etc fall into this category. Petrof pianos fall somewhere in between these two tonalities, generally. This is all a matter of personal preference, but it is very important to recognize what you are looking for before buying. These are generalities, of course, because most good pianos can be voiced one way or the other to a certain degree. Hope that helps, Mat D.

Subject: Morel Piano From: Dean McLaren To: All Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 21:54:06 (EST) Email Address: mclaren@kyneton.net.au Message: G'day, I was wondering if anyone could enlighten me to the history behind a Morel upright piano that we have just purchased, so far I have been given 3 'Professional' opinions, none of which collaborate with each other! The 1st; being that Morel's were made in Europe. 2nd; that they were made in America. And the 3rd that they were made in Australia. It has an action made by "The Otto Higel Co Ltd" and the only other markings are the numbers 464 on the two far left keys and the numbers 3460 on top of the left hand panel. It also has an 'Allans' emblem on the frame, who are an Australian music shop, that I believe these pianos were made for. If anyone was able to fill in the blanks I would be most grateful. Regards Dean McLaren

Subject: Kohler &Campbell Upright (KC 118) any opinions? From: Kelly S. To: All Date Posted: Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 13:29:30 (EST) Email Address: kellyschutz@prodigy.net Message: I was looking at a Baldwin or Kawai console. Now I'm looking at a 46.5 Kohler & Campbell upright. It seems to be a bigger sound for less money. The Kawai and Baldwin consoles run 3500-4100. This K&C runs 3500. The sound is great. The only negative is the less attractive casing. Also the action is firmer on the K&C. Does anyone have any opions/experience on this particular piano. I'd really like your input.

Subject: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: Jon Young To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 20:35:07 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Hi Guys & Gals: I am the guy who announced acouple back that I was having a 1890 Knabe grand restored. One of the good suggestions that came back to me was to replace the old keys( not ivory) with either new ivory or the false ivory by Yamaha called ivorite. Can anyone tell me where a good source would be and the approximate cost for a set of each so I can make a decision on which to go. Can the ivorite be purchased from a parts store or do I need to contact Yamaha direct? Your comments would be appreciated. Jon

Subject: Re: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: Jon To: Jon Young Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 21:17:23 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: This is an update on my search for a GOOD key covering for the 1880-85 Knabe that I am having rebuilt. I contacted the main service center of Yamaha to inquire about the available of their 'ivorite' material. I finally recieved answer this P.M. that it was not available for sell for a non-Yamaha brand piano. I have looked into using bone and have recieved some good and negative reports on color, porosity and durability of bone. Also another individual memtioned that Schaff Music Center has a product that is suppost to be a good quality comparible to the Yamaha 'ivorite'. I do not know if it has a product name or not. So if anyone out there was had any experience with Schaff key covering, I would appreciate hearing for you. I have not given up on the 'ivorite' yet, but it does not look good. Any other suggestion? I think I am having FUN!! Jon

Subject: Re: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: Cork To: Jon Young Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:13:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Just wanted to point out that keytops made of bone (a natural, renewable resource) are available for less than ivory, and have many of the characteristics of ivory. More expensive than Ivorite-type substitutes. Again, your rebuilder will know where to get it. Cork

Subject: Re: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: Jon To: Cork Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 09:54:30 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Cork: I hate to bother you again, but my rebuilder does not know of a source for bone replacement keys. Can you give me a name and I will pursue it. If you rather not mention on the Forum, just pass it on via my e-mail address. Thanks again! Jon

Subject: Re: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: Cork To: Jon Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 10:24:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: (Jon, Tried to send a message to your e-mail, but it failed to be delivered. Below is text:) Jon, Here's a couple messages from Pianotech re: Bone keytops. (By the way, the fact that your rebuilder is forcing you to find this information, or doesn't know how to get it himself bothers me. Is he or she a Registered Piano Technician, or an associate member of the PTG?) Anyway, this will get you started. Rgds, Cork Subject: Re: bone keytops You can get them from Nelson Wookworking,Inc., 601 West Main Rd., Little Compton, R.I. 02837. Phone: 401-635-4733. The price is about $40.00 per octave. He is the largest producer of this in the world. We use it for our harpsichords and fortepianos. We also use 'Crazy glue' to glue in onto the keyblanks as this does not warp the bone like water based yellow glues will. Let us know if you have any other questions. Good luck! John Lyon Lyon Keyboard Instruments --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- -- Nelson's bone is ok, but the 'antique grade' he sells is too porous and quickly will pick up shit from the player's fingers, chocolate, etc....gets dirty fast. Pay for his best if you are taking the trouble to re-bone a keyboard. Calling the shitty stuff 'antique' is a crock...the highest quality bone is pure white, like you find on antique pianos, and looks almost like plastic...it seems this is a function to some extent of the H2O2 used mostly nowadays, vs the liming of old bone. Also the old stuff didn't yellow like the modern bleached stuff does. For gluing bone use a high quality hide glue, something like the stuff used for sticking labels on glass bottles (120/360), mixed medium strength. Tooth and size the bone plates prior to gluing them on. Heat them on an upturned iron on min., put glue on the key, then the bone cover, then water on top of the bone, then a small clamp 1 hour. Shouldn't have any trouble with warping using that method and they stay put. No need for crazy glue - I wouldn't trust that stuff to last anyway. You'll get good at sharpening your plane blades when you work with bone. Stephen Stephen Birkett Fortepianos Authentic Reproductions of 18th and 19th Century Pianos

Subject: Re: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: Jon To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 14:11:31 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Cork: Thanks for all the trouble you went to in getting this info to me. My tech. has not never worked with bone, so I hesitate in springing this on him. It also may be hard to kept the bone looking good. Another individial ask me if I had looked at the Schaff Piano material that competes with Yamaha's ivorite. I have not even heard of it. Have you had any experience with the Schaff? Thanks again for your help! Jon

Subject: Re: New Ivory or Yamaha Ivorite From: David Burton To: Jon Young Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 21:20:15 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Ivory vs. Ivorite. OK: first one is at least three times more expensive than the other. New Ivory can only come from things like old ivory statues which are cut up. The cost is staggering and for me not worth it. Ivorite is something you specify from someone whose work you have examined beforehand. They will get the ivorite from wherever they can get it, including Yamaha directly. I really do think that the difference in this case is inconsequential and the high cost of ivory not justified. All you really want is a nice playing surface, one that fits the quality of the piano. By the way the piano you are having rebuilt (I hope that's the case) is regarded by at least one other poster on this board, as well as me, as being among the best of the vintage years, so please keep us informed of the progress of your project.

Subject: Golden Age? From: Young S. To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:33:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! Many people on the forum talk about the Golden Age. When is the exact time period considered as the Golden Age? My church has a Mason & Hamlin AA that was built in 1926 as I checked with the serial #. Is it considered a Golden Age vintage piano? And I wondered about the model name. It is AA not A. Any thought on this? I'm just curious. :) ?! Young

Subject: Re: Golden Age? From: Cork To: Young S. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:09:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Young, You'll get a slightly different answer depending upon who responds. A broad definition would encompass the period 1880 to 1940. Keep in mind that the North American market was undergoing great consolidation during this period, and as a result the quality of some instruments began to suffer as their firms were absorbed by larger companies. I would add the caution that one must not think that a piano from 1902 is necessarily better than one from 1999. Indeed, the quality of a 1902 grand today is probably more dependent on the quality of the rebuild it has received than its original state out of the factory. However, innovation in the industry (at least in terms of improving the instrument, not reducing the cost of building it) has pretty much stagnated since the very early years of this century. Thus, today's builders, (with a few small exceptions) having forfeited the path of innovation, are better described as manufacturers of historical instruments than as new piano makers. This means that there is no compelling musical reason to desire a new Steinway B over one made in, say, 1920, that has been rebuilt by a master. For me, instruments from the Golden Age offer a greater variety of tone styles (compared with the limited number of N.Am. manufacturers today), and some incredibly lovely cases with beautiful woods and interesting designs. The fact that many of the options in today's new piano market are look-alike shiny black polyester is a bit on the boring side, at least in my opinion. I'd say an M&H AA from 1926 definitely meets the time criteria. The AA is the model between the 5'8' A and the 7' BB; my memory is failing me, but I think it is 6'4'. Interestingly, this model is considered by many to be the quintessential Mason & Hamlin. Regards, Cork

Subject: 1928 M&H CC From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 23:11:01 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Cork, I have a friend who used to own a M&H AA and traded up in the 1970's for a 1928 CC (9'). His CC is a lovely piano but he chose my BB to record for a new project we will start this coming week --- it will be a CD of 12 Granados dances that were original scored for solo piano and have been arranged for cello & piano by my friend (the M&H CC owner) Bernard Katz. The cellist is Marcie Chanteaux, who is first chair cellist for the Detroit Symphony orchestra. Anyway, the point was that in the 'old vs. new' discussion, it doesen't make a lot of difference--each individual piano has its own character (depending on how it is voiced etc.) and new is just as good as the old. regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: 1928 M&H CC From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 10:51:47 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Mat D. - 'a CD of 12 Granados dances that were original scored for solo piano and have been arranged for cello & piano by my friend (the M&H CC owner) Bernard Katz. The cellist is Marcie Chanteaux, who is first chair cellist for the Detroit Symphony orchestra.' WOW! I'd sure like to buy one of those when it comes out! I bet half the Piano Forum would too. Please let us know when it's released and where we can order ours.

Subject: Re: 1928 M&H CC From: Andrew To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 09:37:51 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Since David touched upon CD, I'd like to mention one by American pianist (unknown to most music lovers out there). His name is Eric Himy. He has this Piano Transcriptions CD that includes Bizet/Horowitz 'Carmen' Fantasy. It can only be ordered through the pianist himself. The performances are breathtaking. The recording sound is as good as any major label. Just thought someone might be interested. Andrew

Subject: Re: 1928 M&H CC From: Mat D. To: Andrew Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 14:29:10 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Andrew, thanks for the info. Do you have an e-mail or other # to contact Mr. Himy? Thank you, Mat D. BTW, I had my first recording session this morning for the Granados Dances for Piano & Cello --- everything went well & it's going to be a very nice package. These arrangements that my friend Bernard Katz did are really wonderful, as is the Cellist Marcie Chanteaux (Detroit Symphony).

Subject: Re: 1928 M&H CC From: Mat D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 01:50:24 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: David, I certainly will let you know when we're done with these recordings. I start on Tues. and we'll probably try to get takes on 2 or 3 of the pieces. It might be a couple months in the making because Marcie is very busy w/the symphony and rehearsal time for this project is at a premium. As it is, Bernie & Marcie are prepared to start w/ 3 of the dances this Tuesday. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Golden Age? From: David Burton To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 22:27:20 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Thanks Cork and Jon. I was inspired to write an article on the Golden Age. Hope you enjoy. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/F991205.html

Subject: Thank you, Cork! From: Young S. To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 16:42:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Mr. Cork, Thank you for the detailed reply. Now I understand why people love old rebuilt piano so much. Actually at a dealer, I tried a couple of Mason & Hamlin and Steinway rebuilt grands that were originally built during the Golded Age. They were absolutely gorgeous. Being a layman, I didn't even realize they are rebuilt ones until the salesperson explained. I'm so gald I found this forum. :) Warm regards, Young

Subject: Charles Walter 1500 Upright, Fandrich and Sons 130 Upright and Petrof 125/131Upright From: Roger Smith To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 16:31:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am interested to hearing anyone's opinion on the Charles Walter Studio 1500, the Fandrich and Sons 130 Upright (made by Pearl River Pianos in China) and the Petrof 125/131 Uprights. My wife and I are beginning piano students and want a upright piano that we can grow into as well as a piano children can easily learn on. This will probably be our first and only piano we buy. I want a piano that will sound great playing either a classical or jazz repetorie. Any Advise in sorting out the good, the bad and the ugly would be greatly appeciated. Thank you in advance for your replies. Roger

Subject: Re: Charles Walter 1500 Upright, Fandrich and Sons 130 Upright and Petrof 125/131Upright From: Danika To: Roger Smith Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 18:28:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I purchased a new Charles Walter Upright in April and love it! I did not get the studio, though. I felt the Upright I got still had a wonderful, rich sound and wanted something a bit fancier looking. I ended up with the Cherry satin Traditional. As they say it is best to buy a piano that is more than what you think you deserve so that you can grow into it. I, too, am an adult beginner, or perhaps more of an intermediate now. Anyhow, my piano has never failed me! The action is wonderful, the sound is very rich and not bright, tunes wonderfully~I had the damp chaser installed. I mostly play classical music, but where I take lessons they use the exact same piano and I know Jazz and just about anything else sounds great! If you have not purchased Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', I highly recommend it. He rates Walters pretty high and I feel it was worth every cent! It is definately a beginner friendly piano, but I also know someone who has played for 36 years who just purchased one and she loves it too!

Subject: Re: Charles Walter 1500 Upright, Fandrich and Sons 130 Upright and Petrof 125/131Upright From: ryan To: Danika Date Posted: Tues, Dec 07, 1999 at 10:30:49 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I have played the Walter pianos, but not the other two. I really liked the action and the tone of the Walter. They have a very pleasing tone that isn't harsh, but has an 'American' flavor to it. I think the Walter piano would be great for beginners and would last for many years before you would be able to outplay it, if ever. One note is that both models, even though they are different sizes, are the exact same piano on the inside. So there is no 'penalty' for buying the smaller or larger piano, it's just a matter of preference. Even though I have played the Walter and can recommend it, I would also recommend that you try out the other two as well, just to compare tone, action, and other features, if any.

Subject: Schulze Pollmann piano From: Mel To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 14:29:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been shopping for a piano for a long time, comparing touch and sound, and comparing prices too. A friend who lives on the West Coast told me I should play a Schulze Pollmann piano before I make up my mind. I've never heard of this make of piano and wonder if anyone else has. Are they a good piano? What price range (I want to buy a grand)? Where do they sell them? I'll appreciate any help.

Subject: Re: Schulze Pollmann piano From: Jonathan To: Mel Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 22:35:07 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: The gorgeous grand Joy saw can be had for less than $25k. As an old furniture maker, I can tell you this is one fine-looking piano. The detail work on the inlaid wood is fabulous. As a music lover, the piano has a very sweet sound. My wife has basically decided on the Mason & Hamlin, but I sure would not have been upset had she chosen this fine piano.

Subject: she made an excellent choice-M&H! From: Mat D. To: Jonathan Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 23:48:30 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message:

Subject: Re: she made an excellent choice-M&H! From: Joy To: Mat D. Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 19:56:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ditto! Congratulations, Jonathan!!! Glad all that shopping culminated with such a happy holiday present. Welcome to the M&H club!

Subject: Re: Schulze Pollmann piano From: Joy To: Mel Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 21:05:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been shopping for a piano for a long time, comparing touch and sound, and comparing prices too. A friend who lives on the West Coast told me I should play a Schulze Pollmann piano before I make up my mind. I've never heard of this make of piano and wonder if anyone else has. Are they a good piano? What price range (I want to buy a grand)? Where do they sell them? I'll appreciate any help. --- If you live in the San Diego area, you can sample a selection of Schulze-Pollmans at Artistic Pianos (they just had their grand opening last week!) in the Lumberyard Center on 2nd Street in downtown Encinitas.They have uprights and one GORGEOUS grand. The grand sings! Check out David Burton's website for more details and a beautiful photo: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ Incidentally, if you are looking at grands, he has a terrific Mason & Hamlin BB, just two pianos away from the Schulze-Pollmann grand. It's interesting to hear both of them. Different type of sound, both divine.

Subject: Re: Schulze Pollmann piano From: Kerrie To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 22:47:58 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the Seattle area you can get a grand for around 27K, I've heard the upright and it is as smooth as chocolate. Good luck

Subject: Re: Schulze Pollmann piano From: Joy To: Kerrie Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 23:07:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: In the Seattle area you can get a grand for around 27K, I've heard the upright and it is as smooth as chocolate. Good luck --- The asking price for the grand in Encinitas was about 35k, I believe. This particular model had the most incredibly beautiful inlaid woodwork on the outer case -- a combination of burled textures, high-gloss finish, truly fine. As if it needed such a sumptuous casing with that incrediblly visual exposed soundboard. Not your typical black grand. Asking price of the wonderful M&H BB, in basic black is 47k -- just to give you a comparison.

Subject: Re: Schulze Pollmann piano From: David Burton To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 21:38:15 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: And you see why I liked it? The Schulze-Pollmann 190F is one of the great sleepers, a true rare diamond. The one I played was basic black. And that comes cheaper than the wood inlayed one. And at better than 12K less than the BB, really quite a deal.

Subject: Carpet, concrete, etc. floors From: R.K. To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 16:24:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been away from the Forum for a couple of weeks but have been reading with interest the exchanges on floor types and their effect of pianos. I just signed a contract several weeks ago to have the carpeting taken out of my music/family room and ceramic tile installed. The room is 18x20 and has a vaulted ceiling. Maybe ceramic tile wasn't such a good choice for a room with a grand (6'10') piano. Any thoughts? Hope I didn't make a mistake.

Subject: Re: Carpet, concrete, etc. floors From: janine To: R.K. Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 19:55:46 (EST) Email Address: jfornarola@mindspring.com Message: I've been away from the Forum for a couple of weeks but have been reading with interest the exchanges on floor types and their effect of pianos. I just signed a contract several weeks ago to have the carpeting taken out of my music/family room and ceramic tile installed. The room is 18x20 and has a vaulted ceiling. Maybe ceramic tile wasn't such a good choice for a room with a grand (6'10') piano. Any thoughts? Hope I didn't make a mistake. --- My experience is that it will make an enormous difference. We moved from a house with carpeting, floor to ceiling drapes and cathedral ceilings to an old house with hardwood floors, hard plaster walls and no drapes. My 5'11' grand is deafening in the new room. I've already installed drapes, a throw over the lid and an oriental rug, and still had to have the piano voiced so that I could stand to play it. In fact, I'm ready to have it voiced again because it still hurts my ears. Am I overly sensitive? Anyway, you always have the option of area rugs! Or lots of velvet paintings.

Subject: Baby Grand From: Dan To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 13:41:49 (EST) Email Address: dlackner@hotmail.com Message: We are looking at baby grands in the 5'2' to 5'4' range. Considering the Petrof and Reiger-Kloss. Any recommendations from all of you? The Reiger uses Renner actions, but not the Petrof in the 5'2' model. Also, what about the Estonia?

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Charlie To: Dan Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 17:43:00 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: I looked at most of the 'suspects' Cork mentioned. I couldn't find a dealer for Estonia. Shulze -Pollman was a little too mellow for me. Petrov sounded great as did RK. After a long search I bought a 6'1' R-K. It boiled down to the dealer. I got the piano for $15k in the San Franciso CA area, which is a pretty good price for this class piano. A Petrov would have been a few thousand more, and I would probably have bought it (I liked the finish better), but that dealer ran more of a 'mill' operation (move lots of pianos throuh in a hurry), and the RK dealer didn't seem to take that approach. His technician spent 3 hours on his first visit and did all the adjustment I wanted, so I was right about the dealer. I got the rarest of deals: a bargain price and full service. I really like the instrument, but I have one caveat: I broke the music rack the day after I got it. I've been waiting since May to get the replacement part from the factory. It was supposed to have been put on a boat 4 weeks ago. (Probably the importer ordered from RK, who ordered it from YC.) I know Baldwin would not have taken as long. Ask your dealer how long it takes to get replacement parts. Then call the builder or importer and verify the answer.

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Cork To: Dan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 21:19:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: One other thought: you might look at the Baldwin Artist series. Nice instruments, and I think they have a small model. Cork

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Cork To: Dan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 16:09:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We are looking at baby grands in the 5'2' to 5'4' range. Considering the Petrof and Reiger-Kloss. Any recommendations from all of you? The Reiger uses Renner actions, but not the Petrof in the 5'2' model. Also, what about the Estonia? --- (Just lost the first response I typed to this when the message board server burped; I hate having to repeat myself!!!) Okay. Let's see if I can recall what I typed. First, the only reason for looking at grands in the size range you are considering is if you are incredibly space-constrained. Otherwise, I'd strongly recommend you step up to the 5'8' pianos and above. Having said that, and moving under the assumption you are still interested, here are a couple of thoughts on the instruments you mention. The Petrof Model V (5'3') now has Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof action frame, a system that has worked quite well on the Model III (6'4') for years. In my opinion, this is one of the few tiny pianos with decent tone, probably as a result of Petrof's conservative low-tension scale design philosophy. The R-K grands are an interesting amalgam: rim and other case parts plus the plate are made by Young Chang in Korea and are the same as the YC grands of the same size. Renner actions, Abel hammers, the rest of the stuff comes from the Czech Republic. R-K thus uses inexpensive Korean labor and materials to hold down costs, while Petrof employs less expensive Czech labor to assemble the action. Same strategy, different tactics. Estonia: nice tone in the larger grands I've played (9' and 6'3', I believe), Renner action, Abel hammers. Very inexpensive labor in Estonia. The cautionary note I'd make is that they seem to have designed the action geometry to produce an exceptionally light touch. The 9' concert grand felt as light as an upright to me. Be sure you like the touch. Frankly, I think all three are pretty decent manufacturers. Select the one whose tone and touch appeal most to you. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Dan To: Cork Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 16:36:46 (EST) Email Address: dlackner@hotmail.com Message: We are looking at baby grands in the 5'2' to 5'4' range. Considering the Petrof and Reiger-Kloss. Any recommendations from all of you? The Reiger uses Renner actions, but not the Petrof in the 5'2' model. Also, what about the Estonia? --- (Just lost the first response I typed to this when the message board server burped; I hate having to repeat myself!!!) Okay. Let's see if I can recall what I typed. First, the only reason for looking at grands in the size range you are considering is if you are incredibly space-constrained. Otherwise, I'd strongly recommend you step up to the 5'8' pianos and above. Having said that, and moving under the assumption you are still interested, here are a couple of thoughts on the instruments you mention. The Petrof Model V (5'3') now has Renner action parts assembled on a Petrof action frame, a system that has worked quite well on the Model III (6'4') for years. In my opinion, this is one of the few tiny pianos with decent tone, probably as a result of Petrof's conservative low-tension scale design philosophy. The R-K grands are an interesting amalgam: rim and other case parts plus the plate are made by Young Chang in Korea and are the same as the YC grands of the same size. Renner actions, Abel hammers, the rest of the stuff comes from the Czech Republic. R-K thus uses inexpensive Korean labor and materials to hold down costs, while Petrof employs less expensive Czech labor to assemble the action. Same strategy, different tactics. Estonia: nice tone in the larger grands I've played (9' and 6'3', I believe), Renner action, Abel hammers. Very inexpensive labor in Estonia. The cautionary note I'd make is that they seem to have designed the action geometry to produce an exceptionally light touch. The 9' concert grand felt as light as an upright to me. Be sure you like the touch. Frankly, I think all three are pretty decent manufacturers. Select the one whose tone and touch appeal most to you. Rgds, Cork --- Thank your for the advice below. Given that you have pretty well talked me into stepping up in size to a 5'8' or 6', what pianos might you recommend in the Petrof/Reiger price range? thanks

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Cork To: Dan Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 10:12:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Thank your for the advice below. Given that you have pretty well talked me into stepping up in size to a 5'8' or 6', what pianos might you recommend in the Petrof/Reiger price range? thanks' Dan, The usual suspects. Baldwin's Model R is nice, Petrof Models IV and III, look at Estonia, R-K, Kawai, Yamaha, Boston, Schulze-Pollmann. Every manufacturer serving this middle price range has at least one model in the 5'8 to 6'4' size. I think you'll find that shopping for pianos in this range will be a great deal of fun! Enjoy. Cork

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Lewis To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 23:30:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: About the action, is the 'Butterfly Hertz' action better than a renner action?

Subject: Re: Baby Grand From: Cork To: Lewis Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 12:27:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: There is very little difference in general design of modern grand actions, they all use the same concepts. Renner's actions tend to be higher quality in materials and execution, and small details of the design are more refined. Don't let a salesperson get you lost in some arcane discussion of actions.

Subject: Tried Schulze-Pollmann 126 and Baldwin Concert Verticals this weekend... From: ryan To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 14:11:03 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Here is a brief review. I really liked the sound of the Schultze-Pollmann a lot. I thought it had a nice full, round tone that was nice to listen to. The cases seemed to be very well constructed. They did not have some of the features that the more expensive verticals have, but that's to be expected at their price point of $10,000 to $12,000. For instnace, they do not have aggraffes for the bass and lower tenor notes. There is some cost-cutting in choice of woods. Also their action is a standard upright action, although I believe the parts are made by Renner. The action was very good for an upright, but had the same problem found in all upright pianos, when you play a note you can't play it again until you raise the key to about 1/3rd keydip. This may not a problem unless you are playing very demanding music and need the keys to be able to repeat faster and at deeper keydips. Also, their sound quality, though very good, was not quite as rich and singing as some of the more expensive sounding verticals I have played. I did not like the two Baldwin Concert Verticals that I tried. Their action felt very loose, and felt like you could not repeat a note reliably unless you raised a key to 1/2 keydip or more. Their tone was all right, but I didn't think it was anything special. Of course the two I found may well have been out of regulation. An interesting side note, I also tried some Weber, Wurlitzer, and Baldwin baby grands (I really went slumming this weekend:-)) and noticed that their actions did not feel any better than the Schultze Pollmann upright, and perhaps a tad worse. Their repetition speed was not any better. So, here is another plug for those thinking about getting a baby grand to think about a medium to high quality vertical instead for the same money or less.

Subject: A New Twist on Rebuilding From: Curt To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 00:36:18 (EST) Email Address: appledaddy@webtv.net Message: Some of you may recall that I mentioned in a couple of posts here over the past month or so that I have been struggling with the decision to either have my 1916 Sohmer 5'7' grand rebuilt or to buy new. Today I came across a new kind of offer (at least for me) from a piano dealer in my area. I would like to hear comments, cautions, and advice from the regulars, or anyone else who has an opinion or advice on the subject. Their offer was first, to have them (at their store workshop) rebuild my Sohmer to whatever extent that we agree is necessary for a specific price agreed to up front. Then, I select another piano from their iventory as a back-up purchase, again at a specific agreed to price, in case I am not satisfied with the rebuild which they would then take as a trade-in on the back-up. For example (as I understand it) we might agree on $8000 worth of rebuild work on my Sohmer. At that point, I select a back-up from their inventory, say a Boston with a negotiated price of $18,000. We then agree that if I am not satisfied with the work when the Sohmer is completed, I will pay an additional $6,000 and purchase the Boston. In other words, a total of $14,000 cash ($8,000 for the rebuild work + the $6,000 additional for the Boston) plus my Sohmer,for which I have been offered $2,000 a couple of times as a trade on various instruments at other dealers. The Boston is then delivered to my home while the Sohmer is being rebuilt. Ultimately, I get my Sohmer back for the price of the rebuild work or ante up another $6,000 and keep the Boston and let them keep the rebuilt Sohmer. So what do you think? Seems like a no-lose proposition for me as long as I am satisfied with the deal(s) I am able to negotiate up front. A couple of additional points: First, the example above is just that, an example. I have not talked numbers with them. Secondly, I used Boston because they carry the brand, along with Steinway and Young Chang. This dealer is very reputable and has been around for decades. FYI, my new instrument of choice would be a Baldwin R (or L if someone sends me an extra 5 grand). Although they are not a Baldwin dealer they do have a couple of used/rebuilds on the floor that I could select as my back-up. Finally my budget. When I started out, I was hoping to get by with what I could get out of my Sohmer plus $10,000. If I have to, I can scrape up a couple more grand. So, what do you think of the above deal? Other suggestions are welcome. Sorry for the lengthy post.

Subject: Re: A New Twist on Rebuilding From: Cork To: Curt Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 10:18:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Curt, Sounds pretty reasonable, as long as: 1. they have an instrument you really want as your backup, and 2. the actual numbers are roughly what you've given in your example, (i.e., the $4,000 trade-in on your core instrument.) Cork

Subject: Re: A New Twist on Rebuilding From: Curt To: Curt Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 23:01:57 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Janowsky piano From: L.E. Nohr To: All Date Posted: Mon, Dec 06, 1999 at 04:29:02 (EST) Email Address: leifnohr@hotmail.com Message: A couple of months ago I bought an old piano named 'M. Janowsky'. The seller thinks it's about 60 yrs old, but she knew nothing of the instruments history. The instrument is in fairly good condition, and it sounds really nice after I got it tuned. But do any of you know anything about the brand M. Janowsky? I've looked for it on the internet, without success, and this is kind of my last hope... Many thanks in advance LEN

Subject: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Steve To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 00:40:02 (EST) Email Address: radmall@infowest.com Message: Have read Larry Fine's book and have been shopping for pianos in the 5'8' range for about the last two months. Have narrowed the choice down to a Baldwin Model R and a Yamaha C2. I really like the Baldwin sound. The first Baldwin I played was the 5'2' Model M because it was the only one the dealer had in stock. When I first heard it I felt that it competed well with the Yamaha C2. Then I went to another store of the same dealer on the other side of town and they had a 5'8' Baldwin. Of course, the 5'8' was even better. Don't get me wrong, I really like the Yamaha too. It's just that I like the Baldwin better but the issue is price. The Baldwin is about 20k and the Yamaha about 15k. I'm not sure if I like the Baldwin 5k better. All of this background is leading to the following questions: 1. Anybody had any experiences, good or bad, with Baldwin? 2. What do you think, is Baldwin worth the extra money? 3. The 5'2' Baldwin is comparably priced to the Yamaha C2. If I can't come up with the extra 5 grand, do you think it would be a mistake to buy a smaller piano? Your comments will be appreciated.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Jim To: Steve Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 17:17:28 (EST) Email Address: eileenjim@erols.com Message: Before you buy either piano, I suggest that you consider buying a used piano. For $15,000, you could own a rebuilt Mason and Hamlin A or Steinway M, both of which will be worth more in five years than the new Baldwin and both of which should sound just as good. Even less expensive are rebuilt Knabes and Chickerings. You even can get a Steinway M from the 1980s in the 18-20k range. I keep an eye out for good deals on grand pianos in the DC area. Let me know if you would like more specific information. Jim

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: David Burton To: Steve Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 02:57:32 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Steve, The Baldwin is by my accounts a more durable piano and one that more of the really good voicing techs like to work on. By contrast far fewer like to revoice a Yamaha, although that is changing with their latest S series pianos making their appearances here and there. I have been told at least half a dozen times that many techs would prefer leaving a Yamaha's hammers alone. They admire the way a Yamaha sounds and wont want to ruin it. The Baldwin is capable of probably a wider variety of revoicings. I like to see Baldwins voiced down a bit. Then they can sound as sweet as you like but maintain that Baldwin 'foundation' in its tone that Yamaha seems to me to lack. Nevertheless I like the way the Yamaha plays, though some have been too light for my liking. Since you seem so enthusiastic about the Baldwin, I'd say you should strike the best deal for any that you can find around the country or say within a distance of 250 miles from your home. The Baldwin R is a great 5' 8' grand piano, but it isn't as powerful as the Baldwin L. And I think that it would face stiff competition against the Mason & Hamlin A. Of course the M & H is another $10K more than the Baldwin R. Could you tell the difference? Yes, I think you could. You'd probably love the M & H A too. But $10K more than the Baldwin R? And above that M & H A, is a piano whose rarity makes it something to look for; as to see if you can play one in your lifetime kind of thing, whose asking price is better than three quarters of a million dollars! And so it goes. I have played many of these 'unaffordable' pianos and have learned a lot; like being grateful for the piano that I do have. Some can be had from the right dealer for 10 to 15% below the suggested retail price, but as I said in my article on Upright Pianos on my website, as you climb up the piano value scale the makers begin to become limited production producers whose pianos are subject to a scarcity factor. The prices are high simply because the right buyer will buy at that price. Strike the best deal you can on a piano you can afford and then a bit more and you'll be happy.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Paul To: Steve Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 08:13:25 (EST) Email Address: p.redante@drmachine.com Message: Steve, I bought a Baldwin 'R' in the gloss black finish about 5 months ago from a local dealer for abot 15k. I don't know where you're located but they can make shipping arragements. contact: Altenburg Piano House 1911 Brunswick Pike Lawrenceville, NJ (609) 599-2700 Frank Bossman

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Curt To: Steve Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:18:38 (EST) Email Address: appledaddy@webtv.com Message: Steve, I'll leave it to the experts to answer you more technical questions, but make sure you read the earlier posts regarding the Yamaha C2 prices. I thought that I was doing well with a quote of $13,800, but folks are talking prices in the $12s. I am having a more difficult time with pricing on the Baldwin R. The best price I have gotten is in the low $17s, and that is on a piano (satin ebony R) that had been 'loaned' out to a summer musical festival but was being sold as 'new'. Good luck and please post what you end up paying, if you don't mind. This kind of info is very hard to come by.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Paul To: Curt Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:16:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Curt, I don't know if you saw my post, but we were able to buy a Baldwin R in gloss black for about 15k. This was not a demo or used piano. I am told this is the dealer's normal discounted price.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Curt To: Paul Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 22:48:42 (EST) Email Address: appledaddy@webtv.com Message: Curt, I don't know if you saw my post, but we were able to buy a Baldwin R in gloss black for about 15k. This was not a demo or used piano. I am told this is the dealer's normal discounted price. --- Paul, thanks for the heads up. I had missed that post. The best I have done so far on the R is $!7,300 for the satin ebony which should be about $1000 less than the high gloss. I'll definitely give these people a call. Check out the latest 'deal' that I have come across in my 12/5 post 'a new twist on rebuilding'. Thanks again.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Cork To: Steve Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 22:59:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the Baldwin Artist grands are among the least appreciated fine instruments on the market. They have vastly more potential than their Japanese competitors. The SF-10 is superb, the L is one of the finest instruments on the market in that range, and the R is one fine 5'8' piano. However, I would not consider buying a 5'2' piano regardless of the manufacturer. Keep in mind that the only real opinion that matters is your own. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Ben To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 10:11:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hey cork, i think you guys are juz prejudiced against grands that aren't bigger than 6' foot.I dunno why u guys ALWAYS turn ur back on a baby grand..does this mean that a 5'5 grand Always loses out to a 6 'foot grand regardless of the manufactuerer??if u guys have this thinkin that 'Buying grands below 6 foot are juz a complete waste of $$,,'then i think you should change ur biased mentality..read my post on 'WEIRD' and u would know wat i mean..does it mean that a well-made baby grand thagt is 5'5 is far more inferior than a lousy-made 6 foot ??I went to my dealer recently to test out their newly arrived WEINBERG 6'1 grand made in korea. after playing it,, i was speechless.i went over to a 5'5 KAWAI KF-1 and played the same song..and my god!!!the baby grand sounded far more powerful in the bass and the tonal quality was far more superior than the 6'1 WEINBERG..action was also better..So i dun see why a baby grand is more inferior to a 6'1 gtrand 'REGARDLESS OF THE MANUFACXTUERER'Does this means that baby grands are junk left only to 'Furniture Collectors''??i Think the value of a baby grand sholud be appreciated by more ppl instead of them condemning it..And i doubt that baby grands are lousier than grnads..

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: David Burton To: Ben Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 04:40:19 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Well there may be exceptions but I'll stick to my prejudices against baby grands. Of all of them I think Kawai makes a good one, but I also think Baldwin's is a good one. A fair comparison between the Kawai and Weinbach would be the Kawai RX-3 which is a 6'3' grand and yes I expect that the Kawai would still beat it.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: ryan To: Ben Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 14:56:39 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I think Cork mentioned that he would never buy a 5'2' piano a rule I agree with. As far as finding a 5'5' grand that is better than a 6' grand, it happens. However, your comparison is only between two pianos, and could be effected by a lot of things. Perhaps one piano was thoroughly prepped and the other one wasn't. Perhaps the bad piano was a 'furniture' brand that was never meant to be good. Also, there are many brands of pianos out there, some of which you might like better than the Kawaii. I am purchasing a 52' Sauter vertical that blows away both the Weinbach and Kawaii grands in playability, tone, and power in the bass and tenor. It has a much richer tone than many 6' grands and is a fantastic instrument. Just for reference, this particular 52' vertical has strings that are as long as a 6'1' grand. Ryan

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Dennis Qiu To: ryan Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:54:52 (EST) Email Address: dqiu@dpw.com Message: Ryan: I am about to buy a 5'2' Baldwin Concert Vertical 6000. It seems that you guys are all against 5'2'. Would you please be more specific about the reason. Thanks Dennis

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: ryan To: Dennis Qiu Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 13:25:24 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Dennis, we have been talking about 5'2' grand pianos, not 52' vertical pianos. 52' vertical pianos have a lot going for them. Their strings are as long as typical 6' grands, they have full size keys and actions, and are usually quite a bit cheaper than an equivalent grand. I haven't played one of the Baldwin Concert Verital pianos yet, what do you think about it?

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: Dennis Qiu To: ryan Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:50:52 (EST) Email Address: dqiu@dpw.com Message:

Subject: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: Ben To: ryan Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 05:38:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ryan,, i think it is quite unfair to compare a baby grand to a upright.u mentioned that the SAUTER u r purchasing is 52' in height,and u said that the strings are comparable to a 6'1 grand.Which in some cases, 'blows' aways many 6'0 grands like IN TONE,PLAYABILITY,ETC....If that's the case,,does a baby grand AlWAYS loses out to a 52' vertical that has strings that are longer or comparable to a 6'1 grand?? Does this mean that Kawai grands which are bigger than 6 foot also loses out to a 52' SAUTER because of shorter strings???I don't think so..a 5'5 grand has MANY advantages over the 52' upright and vice versa.. Grands have better actions than the upright and no matter how good an upright is,,AN UPRIGHT WOULD NEVER HAVE THE GRAND'S ACTION.The strings of an upright may be bigger than a baby grand but the sound DOES NOT NECESSARILY be better than the baby grand.Yes, the upright might have a better tone but i DUN agree with it having a bigger and more powerful sound..U can't change the fact that a grand PROJECTS the sound across the room.where esle the sound of the upright is reflected BACK to the pianist.. On the Subjectn 'WEIRD' 1)Ryan,, u mentioned that PERHARPS the 'WEINBERG' 6'1 grand WAS made from a furniture brand..I don't think it is.. although it is made from Korea,, this brand has been around for 15 yrs+.. 2)When i tested it out,, it was NEWLY arrived from the manufacturer and proper prep was done.. 3)Lastly,, PLEASE DON'T BE MISTAKEN BUY THE BRAND: IT IS 'WEINBERG' NOT 'WEINBACH'..(Lame manufacturer trying to make the piano sound 'GERMAN')

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: ryan To: Ben Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 18:37:27 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Ben made the following points: Point #1. It is unfair to compare a baby grand to a upright. My response: Why? Curious, you jump all over Cork because he states that a 6' grand is always better than a 5'2' grand, but then you wade right in with baby grands are always better than verticals. Point #2. A 5'5 grand has MANY advantages over the 52' upright including action, which will never be as good as a grand. My response: This is incorrect for a number of reasons. First, many grands 5'5' and smaller do not have full size keys. This really makes for poor touch and dynamic response, and in my opinion makes the action feel worse than a full size single blow vertical action. Second, there have been some recent innovations in upright action technology that make the action virtually indistinguishable from that of a small grand. For example, Sauter has added a repetition spring that keeps the jack under the hammer after a key is played, making the key available to be replayed almost immediately without having to raise the key above 1/3 keydip. To my fingers, this makes their action as fast as any action in a grand piano under $50,000. Fandric has also redesigned the vertical action, and his results are supposed to be even better than the Sauter. Steingraeber also has a new mechanism that is supposed to be good. In case you are wondering what I tested the Sauter with, here is a list of some of the music I have played on it: Bach's Partitas Nos. 1, 2, and 4 and book I from the Well Tempered Clavier, Beethoven's Sonatas Op. 2 No. 3, Op. 7, Op. 22, Op. 53, Op. 57, Op. 101, Schumann's Kreisleriana and Humoresque, Selections from Chopin's Op. 10 Etudes, Chopin's Ballades Nos. 1 and 2, many Rachmaninoff preludes (it really excelled with these, always giving more volume and power when I needed it), Ravel's Ondine from Gaspard de la nuit and Mirrior, Debussy's Images no. 1, Clair de lune, L'Isle Joyeuse, and some other selections that I can't recall off hand. I didn't have any difficulty playing any of these selections, and in fact the tone, power, and response were downright inspiring. Much more inspiring, I might add, than the 6' Kawaii, Baldwin, Young Chang, Yamaha, etc. etc. offerings. Point #3. The upright might have a better tone but it doesn't have a bigger more more powerful sound. My response: Wrong again. True, a vertical is not a good choice for concert piano duty, but neither is a 5'5' grand. No grand under 7' is good for concert duty, except in very small venues, and I would still rather have the 7 footer because is adds a whole new dimension of expression over a 6 footer. As to sound volume comparisons, I did side-by-side comparisons of the Sauter vertical against some 6' and smaller grands, and the Sauter had more power and volume. If you don't believe me, try it yourself, but don't try to tell me I am mistaken; I heard it with my own ears, as did others who were with me. As to the piano being new, it is still possible that it was 'dead on arrival'. I have heard of Korean pianos arriving with dead sound boards, or with sound boards that die shortly after arrival.

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: BEN To: ryan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 02:57:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: BEN To: ryan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 02:55:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ben made the following points: Point #1. It is unfair to compare a baby grand to a upright. My response: Why? Curious, you jump all over Cork because he states that a 6' grand is always better than a 5'2' grand, but then you wade right in with baby grands are always better than verticals. Point #2. A 5'5 grand has MANY advantages over the 52' upright including action, which will never be as good as a grand. My response: This is incorrect for a number of reasons. First, many grands 5'5' and smaller do not have full size keys. This really makes for poor touch and dynamic response, and in my opinion makes the action feel worse than a full size single blow vertical action. Second, there have been some recent innovations in upright action technology that make the action virtually indistinguishable from that of a small grand. For example, Sauter has added a repetition spring that keeps the jack under the hammer after a key is played, making the key available to be replayed almost immediately without having to raise the key above 1/3 keydip. To my fingers, this makes their action as fast as any action in a grand piano under $50,000. Fandric has also redesigned the vertical action, and his results are supposed to be even better than the Sauter. Steingraeber also has a new mechanism that is supposed to be good. In case you are wondering what I tested the Sauter with, here is a list of some of the music I have played on it: Bach's Partitas Nos. 1, 2, and 4 and book I from the Well Tempered Clavier, Beethoven's Sonatas Op. 2 No. 3, Op. 7, Op. 22, Op. 53, Op. 57, Op. 101, Schumann's Kreisleriana and Humoresque, Selections from Chopin's Op. 10 Etudes, Chopin's Ballades Nos. 1 and 2, many Rachmaninoff preludes (it really excelled with these, always giving more volume and power when I needed it), Ravel's Ondine from Gaspard de la nuit and Mirrior, Debussy's Images no. 1, Clair de lune, L'Isle Joyeuse, and some other selections that I can't recall off hand. I didn't have any difficulty playing any of these selections, and in fact the tone, power, and response were downright inspiring. Much more inspiring, I might add, than the 6' Kawaii, Baldwin, Young Chang, Yamaha, etc. etc. offerings. Point #3. The upright might have a better tone but it doesn't have a bigger more more powerful sound. My response: Wrong again. True, a vertical is not a good choice for concert piano duty, but neither is a 5'5' grand. No grand under 7' is good for concert duty, except in very small venues, and I would still rather have the 7 footer because is adds a whole new dimension of expression over a 6 footer. As to sound volume comparisons, I did side-by-side comparisons of the Sauter vertical against some 6' and smaller grands, and the Sauter had more power and volume. If you don't believe me, try it yourself, but don't try to tell me I am mistaken; I heard it with my own ears, as did others who were with me. As to the piano being new, it is still possible that it was 'dead on arrival'. I have heard of Korean pianos arriving with dead sound boards, or with sound boards that die shortly after arrival. ____________________________________________________________ My Replies: (I hope none of u guys are offended by my rep,lies..i have NO intention of pointing fingers and criticising anyone,,i'm juz trying to prove my point) Point #1. Don't you think it is unfair to compare a baby grand to an upright??? Of course, in many cases , when buying a piano, comparing a baby grand and an upright is fair enough..But when comparing it technically,,it is really unfair. why? Think abt it. 'he states that a 6' grand is always better than a 5'2' grand, but then you wade right in with baby grands are always better than verticals.' I was juz trying to say that some 6' grands may and maynot be better than baby grands..i then waded in with baby grands are better than uprights becoz some one said that uprights are better than many small grands and even 6' grands..again,,i was trying to prove my point..(i did not say that baby grands are always better than uprights,, did i??) (This is getting really confusing!!) (Sorry Cork,,my intention wasn't really to jump all over you over this matter, i was juz trying to prove my point that baby grands aren't as bad as u guys think) Point #2) '' A 5'5 grand has MANY advantages over the 52' upright including action, which will never be as good as a grand.'' Did i say that it will never be as good as a grand?? Point#3) I agree with you..but the sound produced by an upright is affected because the sound is 'contained' iside the piano, making the sound being refelcetd back to the pianist wherelse the grand's sound is 'projected' across the room. By the way.. the piano is completly BRAND NEW,, with proper prep ,, including voicing,,tuning,,etc...done..i dun think the sound board is dead... (Ryan,,i hope that no offence would be taken,,becoz i'm merely trying to voice out my comments and hope to learn something new that i dun know from u guys..)

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: Cork To: BEN Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 16:34:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Fascinating exchange. Don't worry about me -- I have a thick skin! I suppose I would summarize my views thus: Given equivalent condition and quality (in materials, design, etc.), grands of 5'8' or more are better than small grands (5'6' or less). As Ryan points out, this is because the drastically shortened scale of the small grand requires bass strings that are too short and thick, thus producing unacceptable tone in the bass section. The transition from the tenor to the bass section is also much more problematic in these tiny grands. Note, though, the assumption of EQUIVALENT CONDITION AND QUALITY. A Steinway L is a better piano by far than a Steinway S. When crossing from one quality class of piano to another, it's very possible that the smaller, higher-quality instrument might outperform a larger, cheaper instrument. For instance, despite my comment above, I'd take a Petrof V (5'3') over any 6' Chinese or Indonesian instrument I've played to date. So your 'weird' comparison in the other thread did not surprise me. Frankly, because our preferences for tone and touch are such an personal choice, it's possible to prefer a mid-size grand in one brand to ANY instrument in another brand, even in the same quality class. As for baby grands vs. uprights, it is again a question of tone quality (particularly in the bass & tenor sections), which generally will be won by the upright, vs. such intangibles as the touch of the action & keys, una corda vs. 'soft' pedal, and sostenuto mechanism which could be won by a 'quality' small grand. Unfortunately, most small grands are constructed to be furniture in Yuppie living rooms, not musical instruments, and as such the manufacturers put even less time and effort into their design and construction. Keep in mind that it's hard to build a bad-sounding 7' grand, but it is exceptionally hard to build a good-sounding small grand. If you were a piano maker designing your baby grand, would you build a cheap furniture grand for a $10,000 price point to sell like mad, or a very nice $20,000 grand that few people would buy because they can get your 5'8' grand for $21,000? That's the problem in the baby grand market: the instruments are either crap built to be decorative, or they are virtually the same price as the (better sounding) mid-size grand in the company's line. So I recommend quality small grands only to accomplished pianists (who can appreciate the una corda and sostenuto) who are space-constrained. Rather that write all of the above every time, I just shorten it to 'Don't buy grands smaller than 5'6', and preferably larger than 6'.' Hope that clarifies things a bit. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re:Cork gives great responses From: Joy To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 22:36:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What an eloquent explanation! Now I'm REALLY chagrined by my impatience. Hope Ben reads this posting -- Cork's, that is, not mine.

Subject: Re: Re:Cork gives great responses From: Ben To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 23:17:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cork's responses were correct.Straight to the point. 'If you were a piano maker designing your baby grand, would you build a cheap furniture grand for a $10,000 price point to sell like mad, or a very nice $20,000 grand that few people would buy because they can get your 5'8' grand for $21,000? ' Bravo Cork!! U finally knocked some sense into me!!! But u suggested that buying a grand that is 5'6 or bigger. What if the grand's 5'3? does 15cm of 'string' make any difference??

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: ryan To: BEN Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 19:23:38 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Ben, no offence taken, and I hope none given; this is a good discussion. I honestly don't think it's unfair to compare an vertical to a grand, even a 6' grand. A really good vertical really can be better than a baby grand and even some 6' grands. While it's true that sound comes out through the top and the bottom of grand pianos, it doesn't mean that a similar sized vertical won't project. Sound also comes out of the back of an upright. Grand pianos project much better when they are on a stage because the stage becomes another sound board. In the same manner an upright next to a wall can cause the wall to become a second resonator. We played around with the spacing between a vertical and a wall, and found that a 2-3' gap on the treble side and a 1' gap on the bass side really caused the sound to project quite well and really fill the room. When I was out of the room, somebody else started playing the piano and I mistook it for a grand. I believe that in most home applications where you have a normal sized living room or piano studio, a grand just isn't going to make that much difference in the way different pianos project. What matters to me is the sound quality of the bass and tenor notes. In pianos that are too short, the bass strings have to be really thick to compensate for the short scale, which causes them to sound more like a solid bar than a piano string. I like a very resonant sounding bass and tenor section.

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: Joy To: BEN Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 16:31:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ben, as a poster who has read and re-read and printed-out and scrutinized the well-reasoned and well-written postings by Ryan, David B, Mat D., Cork, and Mr.Granholm, I've enjoyed digesting all their views, -- yes, sometimes they may disagree with each other, but not really, since they obviously know what they are talking about. They've enabled me to make well-informed decisions.I had a wonderful conversation with the owner of a piano store that just opened near me. I went straight to the back of his vast showroom and played both a Mason & Hamlin BB and a Schultze- Pollman. WOW. He seemed to enjoy sharing information on them. "So you KNOW about Schultze-Pollman!" he said, amazed. You seem to be skim-reading the information that's being shared, retaining some minutiae here-and-there, magnifying them, and jumping to hasty conclusions, judging from the form of your written responses and your spelling. Still, if it wasn't for your dogged persistence, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to read Ryan's elaboration on actions. Wish I could sample a Sauter! And the next time my son and I visit our relations in Seattle, I look forward to visiting the Fandrich showroom. Ryan, are you a teacher when you're away from this site? Man, I admire patience and skill of teachers!!!

Subject: ??? From: Ben To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 23:24:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, 'well-reasoned and well-written postings by Ryan, David B, Mat D., Cork, and Mr.Granholm,'-This,, i agree with you fully. 'You seem to be skim-reading the information that's being shared, retaining some minutiae here-and-there, magnifying them, and jumping to hasty conclusions, judging from the form of your written responses and your spelling. ' Wat do u mean by judging from the form of my written responses and my spelling? I normally use short forms for words as it is a habit when i'm on the net...As for my responses,,they are merely comments that i voiced out ,out of my own opinion,,my intention wasn't to jump to hasty conclusions,,but to at least,, find out whether my thinking on certain pianos was correct,,if they are not,,i'll be very happy becoz at least i know that my post was incorrect,,with ppl telling me the justified information of the piano..from there,, i would have learned something new that might come in handy when i'm shopping from pianos.. 'Still, if it wasn't for your dogged persistence, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to read Ryan's elaboration on actions.' I suppose ur sentence is phrased wrongly.. if i'm not wrong,,this should be the sentence u r trying to form: 'Still, if it wasn't for your dogged persistence, we WOULD have had the opportunity to read Ryan's elaboration on actions.' Guys,,i'm utterly unaware that i'm a 'PEST' in this forum that keeps ppl from learning new things in this forum..if that's the case,,i would like to apologise to ppl here trying to read Ryan's post on Actions..(Many thanks to him as well becoz from his postings,,i was able to see some light on baby grands)Joy,, i was totally unaware that my postings would deprive u of learning new things...apologies...apologies......

Subject: Re: JOY??? From: Ben To: Ben Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 05:18:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, 'well-reasoned and well-written postings by Ryan, David B, Mat D., Cork, and Mr.Granholm,'-This,, i agree with you fully. 'You seem to be skim-reading the information that's being shared, retaining some minutiae here-and-there, magnifying them, and jumping to hasty conclusions, judging from the form of your written responses and your spelling. ' Wat do u mean by judging from the form of my written responses and my spelling? I normally use short forms for words as it is a habit when i'm on the net...As for my responses,,they are merely comments that i voiced out ,out of my own opinion,,my intention wasn't to jump to hasty conclusions,,but to at least,, find out whether my thinking on certain pianos was correct,,if they are not,,i'll be very happy becoz at least i know that my post was incorrect,,with ppl telling me the justified information of the piano..from there,, i would have learned something new that might come in handy when i'm shopping from pianos.. 'Still, if it wasn't for your dogged persistence, we wouldn't have had the opportunity to read Ryan's elaboration on actions.' I suppose ur sentence is phrased wrongly.. if i'm not wrong,,this should be the sentence u r trying to form: 'Still, if it wasn't for your dogged persistence, we WOULD have had the opportunity to read Ryan's elaboration on actions.' Guys,,i'm utterly unaware that i'm a 'PEST' in this forum that keeps ppl from learning new things in this forum..if that's the case,,i would like to apologise to ppl here trying to read Ryan's post on Actions..(Many thanks to him as well becoz from his postings,,i was able to see some light on baby grands)Joy,, i was totally unaware that my postings would deprive u of learning new things...apologies...apologies......

Subject: Joy replies to Ben :) From: Joy To: Ben Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 14:50:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Didn't mean to get you all flustered, Ben. No need to apologize, either. I blame myself. So I appreciate your concern. Actually, I am the one who speed-reads as part of the tools of my trade (bookmaking). I actually soak in much more textual information as a result of this acquired skill. Paradoxically, it's effective only as long as every word is spelled fully and completely, and punctuation is used reasonably. So if I'm reviewing text again and again and again, I'm speed-reading and speed-reading and speed-reading, and I love it. Paradoxically, I actually have to S L O W D O W N to read blocks of abreviated material, translating word-by-word as I go along, which gives me a HUGE headache, especially on a computer monitor where all default typefaces on websites read 2-3 sizes smaller on a MAC than on a PC. It's like reading footnotes in doggerel! Sorry if it all came down sounding much too critical, Ben. I was growing impatient, getting a headache, and that makes me very grumpy!!! Especially those double-commas (,,) of yours. GRRRRRR!!!!! AAAAGGGGHHHH!!!! So I apologize for my utter impatience. I'm glad you want to know, I mean REALLY KNOW about the intricacies of the piano, one of the most truly wonderous musical instruments in the universe (my other fave is the gamelan). This is the best forum in the universe, too. ;) Warmly, Joy

Subject: Re: Ben replies to Joy :) From: Ben To: Joy Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 23:12:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, Very sorry for my horrendous punctuation mistakes and already hopeless spelling.I promise not to use (,,) double commas again in the future.( I honestly just can't get enough out of pressing the (,) key once, so i press it twice.) ;) Joy, thanks for reminding me that those double commas of mine were irritating,, or else ur head might blow up just by reading those horribly phrased and mistakes full post of mine. Cheers to this wonderful forum. :)

Subject: JOY replies to BEN From: Joy To: Ben Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 14:34:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: :) :) :)

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: ryan To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 19:30:03 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Joy, yes I teach piano part time, although I haven't since we moved to a different state last May. I always admired the patience and skill of my teachers and took a lot of that for granted until I started teaching myself. What a learning experience it has been! Thanks for the positive comments! I never really disagree with David B, Mat D., Cork, Niles, and Mr.Granholm, and others, although when you start talking about the really high-end pianos, everybody has a slightly different taste preference:) I've enjoyed reading your comments as well as many others that post. This is a great forum! Ryan

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: Joy To: ryan Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 01:22:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, yes I teach piano part time, although I haven't since we moved to a different state last May. I always admired the patience and skill of my teachers and took a lot of that for granted until I started teaching myself. What a learning experience it has been! Thanks for the positive comments! I never really disagree with David B, Mat D., Cork, Niles, and Mr.Granholm, and others, although when you start talking about the really high-end pianos, everybody has a slightly different taste preference:) I've enjoyed reading your comments as well as many others that post. This is a great forum! Ryan --- Sigh -- I could never be a teacher.I'm far too impatient! Teachers have the most important role on this planet, so they earn my utmost respect. I never tire of subjective opinions based on seasoned experience. Sorry I neglected to list Mr. Niles Duncan in my informal homage/thank you. Got a big laugh out of his Kranich & Bach accessment. We've sampled one of those,too. Worst grand we ever encountered.

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: David Burton To: ryan Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 23:14:17 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Ryan says, 'I would still rather have the 7 footer because is adds a whole new dimension of expression over a 6 footer.' Does this mean you'd like to see a survey of 7' grands?

Subject: Re: WEIRD AND BABY GRANDS From: ryan To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 23:27:26 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Absolutely! Again, it would be interesting to see if there is a crossover point between 6' and 7' grands in terms of quality and price. Are there any 6' grands that are better than any of the 7' grands? You did a really cool job on the 6' grands and verticals. I still think you should try to play some of the Sauters:-)

Subject: New 7 footer vs. Used Concert Grand? From: MacDuff To: ryan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 16:22:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A related topic: are there 7-foot grands better than 9' grands? I recall playing in a recital hall that had a highly touted new 7-foot Steinway, which I found to have a rather 'tubby' sounding bass. This was a small, very resonate hall and the logic had been to go with a 7 footer so that it would not overpower the space. I think this was a mistake, and that a used (for economy sake) 9-foot piano (perhaps having 'chamber music voiced' hammers) would have been a better choice.

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: David Burton To: ryan Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 04:47:23 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Ryan, would that by any chance be the Sauter 130?

Subject: Re: Baldwin Model R vs. Yamaha C2 From: ryan To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 18:05:51 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Ryan, would that by any chance be the Sauter 130? --- Why yes, as a matter of fact, it is the Sauter 130. Have I mentioned it before:-)

Subject: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Jim DiCaudo To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 19:42:41 (EST) Email Address: jrd_1462@email.msn.com Message: I'm looking to purchase a piano/keyboard as an adult beginner. Though I haven't had lessons since age 6, I have a very good ear for music, tastes favoring classical, and little tolerance for poor tone. After making the round of stores, the choices are wide-ranging, and include: 1) A local store in which the entire rental costs ($30/month) on a used instrument can be fully applied to the purchase price of any new acoustic or digital instrument within the first year, free tuning and delivery. Had a decent selection of used consoles, including a nice Janssen, for under $2000. Also had a selection of Roland digitals with very realistic (and adjustable) key action for $2500. 2) A high-end Steinway dealer with new Kohler & Campbell verticals ranging from 2700-4900, along with a 13-yr-old bright-sounding Yamaha for $2200 and an amazing older black Chickering vertical not yet priced (this one had SO much personality). 3) A local music store with only leasing (not renting) available with new Knabe (Pianodisc's Young Chang verticals), $3990 for a black KN-46, $5800 for a 48' KN-480 upright that included the GT-360 'Quiet Time' MIDI system and mute rail factory installed (this sounds like a steal). I've read Larry Fine's books (but don't have the most current supplement), and realize you can't appraise a used instrument over the Internet. But, overall, I'm having trouble deciding whether the low price/low maintenance and voicing versatility offered by today's digitals with heavy key action outweighs their low resale value, whether the low cash-flow requirements of a $30/month rent-to-own makes the most sense (though I'm committed to learn), or if the acoustic/MIDI best-of-both-worlds provided by the Knabe makes an under $6k new upright with Quiet Time a no-brainer. After plunking keys all over town, I've decided I hate the action on Baldwin's, and love the key action on Yamaha's, Kawai's and the old Janssen. Yet my preference for Classical makes me wonder if the bright tone of aging Asian pianos will offend if I ever get to the point of playing Rachmaninov (perhaps 7 yrs from now). On the other hand, I love Bach above all else, so the inclusing of pipe organ and harpsichord voicings on digital or MIDI instruments may come in handy. Ah, decisions . . . any help on the Knabe pricing, opinions of older Janssens or other thoughts comments welcomed . . .

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Danika To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:00:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I am a 36 year old adult beginner and was in your same shoes 6 months ago! First of all, I decided, after much discussion with piano-pros, not to go with a used piano. I did not want the expense of keeping it up and never really knowing how it was treated in the past. I knew a Grand was out, being too pricey. I also have some background in organ and love classical music; Bach, Beethoven, etc. I heard lots of pianos; Knabe, Kawai, Yamaha and Walters. I completely fell in love with the Walter. I loved the action and the rich sound to it. They are so well made, much better than any Baldwin. I did not care for the bright sound of the Yamahas and I honestly could not be happier with my choice. Like a previous poster said, we each have our own tastes and you have to get something that you will be truly happy with. I kept having the salesman go back to the Walter and if I had the money, I would buy the Grand in a flash! Buying a new piano is an expense, but I decided it was worth it. Take good care of your piano and it will last you a lifetime! We took out a loan to pay for it...it was worth it. And if you are willing to come to Mass., I know a place that will be having a sale on Walters soon!! Let me know!

Subject: Thanks for the input - bought a Kawai From: Jim DiCaudo To: Danika Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 19:39:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I am a 36 year old adult beginner and was in your same shoes 6 months ago! First of all, I decided, after much discussion with piano-pros, not to go with a used piano. I did not want the expense of keeping it up and never really knowing how it was treated in the past. I knew a Grand was out, being too pricey. I also have some background in organ and love classical music; Bach, Beethoven, etc. I heard lots of pianos; Knabe, Kawai, Yamaha and Walters. I completely fell in love with the Walter. I loved the action and the rich sound to it. They are so well made, much better than any Baldwin. I did not care for the bright sound of the Yamahas and I honestly could not be happier with my choice. Like a previous poster said, we each have our own tastes and you have to get something that you will be truly happy with. I kept having the salesman go back to the Walter and if I had the money, I would buy the Grand in a flash! Buying a new piano is an expense, but I decided it was worth it. Take good care of your piano and it will last you a lifetime! We took out a loan to pay for it...it was worth it. And if you are willing to come to Mass., I know a place that will be having a sale on Walters soon!! Let me know! --- Thanks, Danika. While I agree that a poor instrument can dampen the learning process (and student enthusiasm), I'm not sure the word 'used' equates to 'poor' in all instances. I assume you are referring to the practice of buying a beat-up 20-yr Baldwin with mushy keys for a beginner. You can find dozens of these for $700 in any moderate sized city. On the other hand, there are quality older instruments with good tone and many years of life remaining. Though I could afford a new Walter or Petrof, today I purchased a used Kawai 802-I (circa 1980) for $2500 delivered, one tuning, free first lesson book. It had a single owner, was used for a child's lessons for around 6 months and, despite the lack of use (the occasional X-mas carol), was tuned every few years, with no visible scratches or marks. The hammers were worn less than new Story & Clark floor models, with grooves barely visible. The soundness of the construction (and the quality of the woods, such as the soundboard) is higher than the new Kawai CX-5H's and equal or better than the new 505's selling for twice the price. Further, the store offered a 5-yr full warranty (due to the mint condition), a 90-day satisfaction guarantee (permitting a trade for any similarly-priced piano if I don't like it, with no additional delivery charges), and a lifetime full equity trade-in on another instrument (which equates to zero depreciation costs as long as I keep playing). I'll admit I was lucky to find a mint used Kawai (at least in my area, where they're rare). Can't wait 'till it arrives Saturday!

Subject: Re: Thanks for the input - bought a Kawai From: David Burton To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:38:15 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Congratulations Jim. I too think you made a sensible choice. Many wonderful hours for you are ahead.

Subject: Re: Thanks for the input - bought a Kawai From: Charlie To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 20:46:34 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Congratulations on your purchase. With a deal like that, I don't see how you will ever regret it. Enjoy your new instrument.

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Charlie To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 14:57:16 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: My background: I took a year of piano lessons in 4th grade, got sick for 4 months and never took them up again. I had two years of trombone in school band, and hated it. (Just not my instrument.) Took 3 years of organ in high school, loved it, and played organ for 25 years before I got disgusted with the sound of digital organs, and switched to acoustic piano. I couldn't be happier about that decision. My opinions: 1. Don't rent a piano unless its a really good instrument. Nothing will put you off practicing & playing like a poor instrument. 2. Don't go digital. If your ear is at all good, you will soon tire of the sound. 3. The digital harpsichord and organ sounds are pathetic and you won't like them after a bit. 4. The acoustic piano is the way to go. They keep a good percentage of their value, and can be so expressive it is almost unbelievable. In just a couple of years I have learned so much about playing the piano just by practicing, listening, and adjusting my touch. As far as specific brands, you will probably find the Yamaha excessively bright. I thought the touch was too light for me as well. Kawai's are a nice compromise. Charles Walter, Petrov are worth considering if you like a heavier tone (which I do). I started with a Baldwin Hamilton console and was very pleased with it. I traded it in on a Rieger Kloss 6 ft. grand a few months back. The RK has Renner action, which is a joy to play. I would have bought a Petrov if I hadn't gotten such a good deal on the RK. Very similar sounds. Best of luck.

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Dan To: Charlie Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 22:20:50 (EST) Email Address: dlackner@hotmail.com Message: My background: I took a year of piano lessons in 4th grade, got sick for 4 months and never took them up again. I had two years of trombone in school band, and hated it. (Just not my instrument.) Took 3 years of organ in high school, loved it, and played organ for 25 years before I got disgusted with the sound of digital organs, and switched to acoustic piano. I couldn't be happier about that decision. My opinions: 1. Don't rent a piano unless its a really good instrument. Nothing will put you off practicing & playing like a poor instrument. 2. Don't go digital. If your ear is at all good, you will soon tire of the sound. 3. The digital harpsichord and organ sounds are pathetic and you won't like them after a bit. 4. The acoustic piano is the way to go. They keep a good percentage of their value, and can be so expressive it is almost unbelievable. In just a couple of years I have learned so much about playing the piano just by practicing, listening, and adjusting my touch. As far as specific brands, you will probably find the Yamaha excessively bright. I thought the touch was too light for me as well. Kawai's are a nice compromise. Charles Walter, Petrov are worth considering if you like a heavier tone (which I do). I started with a Baldwin Hamilton console and was very pleased with it. I traded it in on a Rieger Kloss 6 ft. grand a few months back. The RK has Renner action, which is a joy to play. I would have bought a Petrov if I hadn't gotten such a good deal on the RK. Very similar sounds. Best of luck. --- Sounds like you are happy with the RK. What should one expect to pay for a new 6'1' RK? How does the price compare with the 5'8' Petrof? Thanks

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: David Burton To: Charlie Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:35:56 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Charie says, 'I started with a Baldwin Hamilton console and was very pleased with it. I traded it in on a Rieger Kloss 6 ft. grand a few months back. The RK has Renner action, which is a joy to play. I would have bought a Petrov if I hadn't gotten such a good deal on the RK. Very similar sounds.' Yes, I believe the Rieger Kloss and Petrof are very close in every respect, maybe even made in the same factory. Anyway I'm certain it's a great instrument. This is the normal progression for someone getting into pianos, the course of action (pardon the expression) that I usually recommend; buy a cheaper console or upright until they're really committed to serious piano playing, then trade up to a 'real piano'; a better than 5'7' grand.

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Jim DiCaudo To: Charlie Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 18:23:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for all the responses. It's funny, but as I think more about the purchase decision then visit this board, your replies fit exactly with my thoughts. I was leaning toward Yamaha, then visited a dealer for the second time today and decided that, though their quality control is terrific (especially compared with the used Samicks they had), I don't enjoy the tone of the smaller Yamaha uprights, and am starting to lean toward a heavier key action. I haven't come across many used Kawais, but there are a few nearby I'll check out. The new Kohler & Campbells sold by the Steinway dealer had a nice tone and modest price, but the Samick connection makes me leary. The sound and touch of the new 46' Knabe (Young Chang) wasn't bad, but don't always hear positive comments on this brand. So, maybe a used Petrof or Walter would work, but they're still pricy and harder to find. Though I agree renting a clunker would be discouraging to the learning process, isn't it possible to find a 20-30 yr. old well-maintained instrument, not overplayed, good felt remaining, for under $2000 that would suffice as a rental or purchase for 2 yrs. until enough knowledge and technique can be developed to decide which $8000 upright to trade up to? Honestly, that Janssen blew away all the old Baldwins, Schuberts and Samicks they were renting for $30, but that's not saying much. At least 3 different 'truckload' and 'liquidation' sales around town this weekend (funny how they all copy the same dates), which may provide opportunities for plunking lots of keys (though I know to avoid buying at these 'road show' piano events - just for research). Anyway, this is much more fun than car-shopping ...

Subject: Re: Not all Schuberts are the same From: David Burton To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:47:03 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Jim says, 'Honestly, that Janssen blew away all the old Baldwins, Schuberts and Samicks they were renting for $30, but that's not saying much. At least 3 different 'truckload' and 'liquidation' sales around town this weekend (funny how they all copy the same dates), which may provide opportunities for plunking lots of keys (though I know to avoid buying at these 'road show' piano events - just for research). Anyway, this is much more fun than car-shopping ...' Well it can be, but the reason I'm responding is that I own a Schubert that's not like the latest ones I've tried, not at all. The newest Schuberts are made in CHINA by Pearl River. Mine was made in Belarus at the Borisova plant there and is totally different in sound and touch. If you have any doubts look inside and along one or both sides should be some paper with cyrilic lettering; Russian. If you see Chinese characters, steer clear.

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: David Burton To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 02:28:33 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Jim, This was quite a post with a lot of information in it. First of all you classify yourself as a beginner with a classical bent, toward Bach. You've been around a lot of stores. Here's how I'd view the same stores if I were tagging along with you. The local store in which the entire rental costs ($30/month) on a used instrument can be fully applied to the purchase price of any new acoustic or digital instrument within the first year, free tuning and delivery is something I really like. The rental is reasonable. Of their selection I guess I'd prefer the Janssen over the Rolland. You see I have a digital keyboard as well as an acoustic piano. You know which one I play more? The acoustic gets played every day. It's real, I can even play it when all the lights are out; power failure or during a thunderstorm. Can't do that on a digital. The high-end Steinway dealer with new Kohler & Campbell verticals ranging from $2700-$4900 is making a lot of money on those K & C's since they come from someplace in Asia like Singapore or Malaysia. Yamaha uprights are good pianos. You get one and usually keep it a long time, til you get tired of how bright it is. In some houses they really hurt your ears. You can get a tech to voice it down a bit but I've been told that voicing a Yamaha is something most techs don't want to do for some reason. The prices of the pianos in this store seem a bit high to me but.... And how about that Chickering? Was it really old or brand new? How well did you really like it? Has it been priced yet? The local music store with only leasing (not renting) probably means more money per month. Their pianos are all Asians too, wouldn't really thrill me even with the features, but hey you're just starting out right? Still don't like leasing over renting with option to buy though. Yeah I'll have more comments on Larry's books soon. But to cover your question about acoustics vs. digitals it's really quite simple, they really are fundamentally different kinds of musical instruments. Digitals, even the best of them, play more like electronic organs than real acoustic pianos. All the gismos and gadgets they have will not make you into a better pianist. The acoustic piano offers the student the opportunity to exercise and develop their finger muscles as well as their ears and brains in the time honored way to produce competent keyboard playing. If you can play an acoustic piano well, you'll be able to play any digital piano well. The reverse is not true. I presume that any price differences with used digitalis over used acoustics reflects the reality that a digital piano is basically just another piece of electric equipment, subject to the usual vagaries of use. OK, I'm going along with you on your action preference, plunking keys all over town, you've decided that Baldwins suck and that Yamahas, Kawais and that old Janssen feel nice. I sense what you mean. Now, you'll probably absolutely love playing Bach on a Yamaha or Kawai. A Janssen is probably out of the Elkhart, Indiana plant that has gone over to Charles Walter from Conn. I've played a few Conn pianos, consoles and a Janssen here and there, never that impressed, but.... I think that you really should concentrate on learning to play an acoustic piano and avoiding gadgetry that will only get in your way. To that end, I'd suggest a rent to buy of a piano you would like playing every day. My guess is that it will probably be a Yamaha.

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Jim DiCaudo To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 08:54:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, Thanks for your reply. After thinking about it overnight, I agree with your suggestions. The prices at the Steinway dealer appeared to be list, though we didn't seriously talk price as it was my first-ever visit to a piano store. They had new Charles Walter's that sounded wonderful, but of course you pay the price. After reading more and seeing what happens to Sammicks (and their cast of 1000 brands) as they age, I'm not sure a Kohler & Campbell makes sense. (Also, a recent post on this board complains about a new K&C purchase). The Chickering looked at least 70-80 yrs old and had a dark tone color. Informed piano folks may have salivated over it, but a novice should probably avoid vintage instruments for a first purchase. It had just come into the shop and wasn't yet worked on or priced (but appeared to be in tune). I also agree about the distraction of gadgetry. If I become proficient, I could always add a Quiet Time or similar device to get an organ or harpsichord sound. I've never seen a Young Chang in person and have read the disclaimers, but the new Chang Knabe's had surprisingly good tone and action, though the poor finish made them appear used. Long term, a Yamaha or Kawai will likely be a better buy, despite the initial higher price. Thanks again for your input.

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: ryan To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 11:50:11 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I wouldn't rule out the Walter. These are very well made, and are great sounding instruments. I really like the feel of their full size keys. The tone is much more pleasing to me than the Asian pianos, more round and singing instead of bright and harsh. You might try negotiating to see if you could get the price down. I have heard from one or two people that there is pretty good negotiating room on Walters, but I tell you for sure if that's true. If you liked them, it wouldn't hurt to try:-) Good luck! Ryan

Subject: Re: Piano for 37-yr old beginner: new vs. used vs. digital From: Roxanne To: ryan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:11:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, I suggest you to go with your instincts! Buying a piano is like getting a dog! Is a lifetime purchase, so go with what your first feeling is! That is, if you feel very comfortable with a Chickering, than go for it. But if you feel at ease playing a Yamaha keyboard than buy it. One thing of a difference between acustics and digital, acustic pianos are the REAL thing, while digital will always be an imitation. This limits the freedom of expressions! However good it may be! Nonethless, follow your heart! And happy piano playing!!!!!!!!

Subject: Re: Harpsichord and Organ sounds From: David Burton To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 11:43:44 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Harpsichord and organ sounds: I am going to make the following comments based on my own deep personal experience with the subject. In my youth, I built two harpsichords, from scratch, with a friend. A harpsichord is again a completely different instrument from a piano; it sounds and plays completely differently. So does an organ. The idea that a digital instrument with these sounds having anything to do with learning to play Bach better is completely erroneous. I can even imagine that had the modern piano been around in Bach's day he would have welcomed it and it would have changed his style, broadened his horizons, etc. That's no cut on Bach. What I'm saying is that every composer has been influenced by the instruments at his disposal and was able to create more based on the new dynamics of a modern piano. And for that matter so are performers. In this day and age we have the best acoustic instruments available to play a huge variety of music. It all gets down to getting one and making the time to practice, finding a piano teacher that you can work with regularly; a lesson of 1 hour duration, no more no less once every TWO weeks. This is how I prefer to deal with piano teachers. A good piano teacher is going to cost you serious money too. Funny how we feel about paying piano teachers compared with say chiropractors; most people who hire a piano teacher don't mind paying them up to $50 for a lesson! Will paying a piano teacher turn you into a pianist? Will he or she make you able to play Bach? No. The only way to become a pianist is to PRACTICE and practice takes TIME. Music is a time bound experience as for that matter is sports. To become good at it, one has to apply oneself to the effort. There are no shortcuts. The rewards are from my point of view entirely worthwhile.

Subject: Yamaha W106B From: Simon To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 17:59:36 (EST) Email Address: simon_fsliu@hotmail.com Message: Can anyone help me to find more information on Yamaha W106B upright. I've just put a holding deposit on one of them S/N 3651603. It's an import from Japan.

Subject: Lion & Hialy? From: Leo To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 05:30:17 (EST) Email Address: leograuman@nevsky.net Message: Please,who can tell me,what kind of a piano is this 'Lion...'

Subject: Re: Lion & Hialy? From: Granholm Bros To: Leo Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 11:12:53 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Please,who can tell me,what kind of a piano is this 'Lion...' --- I believe you're asking about Lyon & Healy, which was a large Chicago-based music retailing company. They had musical instruments, pianos included, built for them with their company name (called 'stenciling') so they could sell them in their stores. Otherwise, Lyon & Healy pianos were very ordinary instruments. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Now Mason & Hamlin, too! From: Mat D. To: Jonathan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 20:08:23 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Jonathan, you sound like a smart man; You won't regret buying buy 'up'--let's face it, you'll have it for the rest of your life. You might as well love it--and you will! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Now Mason & Hamlin, too! From: Cork To: Jonathan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 19:36:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jonathon, You don't play; this is (or should be) a once-in-a-lifetime purchase; you're considering many of the finest instruments made; and, finally, the difference among them is simply which one does the pianist prefer. Buying one of them to 'surprise' her could be a tragic mistake. Let her decide. Go with your idea of a cardboard piano, or buy a music box shaped like a grand piano and put a note in the box that is redeemable for the grand of her choice. Don't pre-select the piano for her. Let her do it, after weeks of playing and considering and playing some more. Rgds, Cork

Subject: what about Knabe? From: Elise To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 15:43:31 (EST) Email Address: egerstenberger@hotmail.com Message: You have mentioned that the Petroff is decent for a baby grand. What is your opinion on the quality of Knabe or the Kawai baby grand?? (Yes, keeping in mind that baby grands are not comparible to grands! If only I had the money...) Elise

Subject: Re: what about Knabe? From: Elise To: all Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 15:48:46 (EST) Email Address: egerstenberger@hotmail.com Message: You have mentioned that the Petroff is decent for a baby grand. What is your opinion on the quality of Knabe or the Kawai baby grand?? (Yes, keeping in mind that baby grands are not comparible to grands! If only I had the money...) Elise

Subject: Re: what about Knabe? From: JK To: Elise Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 06:58:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Elsie, If you are looking at a new Knabe,the name Knabe is now owned by Music Systems Research aka Piano Disc.The piano is made in Korea by Young Chang.In fact it is a Young Chang piano.It is not the original Knabe.Kawai makes a decent piano.There are many 'Stecil' piano names out there ie Kohler&Campbell made by Samick, Wurlitzer,made by Samick D.H.Baldwin,made by Samick now discontinued.Stick with an orginal manufacture ie Yamaha 'C' series, Baldwin Artist Series, Kawai, Petrof etc. Good luck in your search, JK

Subject: Excellent advice from Cork! From: Mat D. To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 20:10:39 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message:

Subject: Confused in Characteristics of different PIANO Brands From: Anita CHAN (from Hong Kong) To: All Date Posted: Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 01:33:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Do anybody knows the tone/characteristics in the choice of piano from the following brands? Yamaha, Ottostein, Petrof, Bosendorfer, Boston, Pearl River, Sauter, Weinbach, Steinway & Son? Including the pricing.. Thank you very much.

Subject: For Ben: More on Small Grands From: Cork To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:49:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I decided the other threads are getting a bit too long, and we are a bit off-topic, so . . . 'But u suggested that buying a grand that is 5'6 or bigger. What if the grand's 5'3? does 15cm of 'string' make any difference??' Ben, actually I was simply hedging things a bit. Frankly, I think 5'8' is a reasonable minimum, but with the knowledgeable and opinionated folks on this forum [ big wink ] I'm sure someone would come up with a current-production 5'7' piano that 'sounds like a Steinway D'. In general, 5'8' to 6'4' pianos are a good starting point, with a number of good pianos that can satisfy the needs of most people at a relatively reasonable price. For serious musicians with more cash and space available, I think the 7' instrument represents the next 'great leap' forward, but that's another discussion. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: For Ben: More on Small Grands From: Ben To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:20:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that some of the exceptions of baby grands are the Petrof V and Kawai RX-1 (My own personal opinion) Heard that Steingraber is higly rated, but the price is costing a bomb. Went round looking out for Sauters, but couldn't find any.By the way, Comparing uprights and baby grands,does any one feels that there is a sure winner in the top range uprights and baby grands?

Subject: Re: For Ben: More on Small Grands From: Kelly To: Cork Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 17:08:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Back in the old days, there were plenty of small grands around 5'6' or so that were very nice, including models from Baldwin, Krakauer, and Sohmer. Not exactly Steinway D's, but still good pianos. So there are exceptions to every rule! [ wink back ]

Subject: Re: Especially for Cork & Jonathan From: Joy To: Kelly Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 18:04:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Cork, what grand piano do YOU have? And did you say you were thinking of getting another one? Which one? Dying to know. ;) --- --- --- - A totally unrelated aside for Jonathan: Piano movers just picked up my other upright (aka Ol' Reliable). While balancing the 1200-lb behemoth, they both noticed my M&H. One of them gasped 'Wow, a Mason & Hamlin!'; the other turned his head to me and said 'WHERE did you find THAT?? Great piano!' Just to give you an idea how rare any M&H is to come by in San Diego county.

Subject: Joy From: Cork To: Joy Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:21:09 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, 'Cork, what grand piano do YOU have? And did you say you were thinking of getting another one? Which one? Dying to know.' Well, when we bought our grand nearly five years ago, we could barely afford $20-25,000. In the end, it came down to a 7' A.B. Chase (1889) in the process of being rebuilt, a new Baldwin SF-10, and the Petrof II. My wife knocked out the Chase, deciding at that time she wanted a new piano. I chose the 7'9' Petrof II over the 7' Baldwin SF-10. Since both have a concert Renner action, the decision was strictly on tone. No instrument is perfect, but though it's only a lowly Petrof there are times that the music it produces brings tears to my eyes. A sensitive instrument suitable to a variety of styles. And yes, earlier this year there was a chance I might have made a considerable sum of money on a specific deal; unfortunately, that didn't happen. My wife had seen an early 20th century Steinway D, and decided that she would indeed like to have a beautiful piano from the Golden Age; had the bucks showered down on the family, I'd have looked for a Knabe, M&H, Steinway, or equivalent from that time period. Now you know my deep, dark secrets. Hope you're not too disappointed! Regards, Cork

Subject: Re: Joy From: Joy To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 15:33:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Now you know my deep, dark secrets. Hope you're not too disappointed!' Are you kidding??? Now I want a Petrof 7'9'!!! Thanks for sharing your very-real-life reasoning behind your choices and final selection. It was intersting for me to see you DIDN'T include Chickering in your Golden Age list. Early in my quest for a piano, with only $4,000 to spend and champagne taste, I came across a 1905 5'7' Chickering grand in good condition that came just within my paltry budget, and I posted a query asking what I might have to spend to rebuilt it. This produced a series of rich responses from the forum regulars -- great stuff! I smiled when I came to your concise evaluation: that golden age Chickerings you've encountered had strong bass but weak treble sections. That was that! I wonder how many of us neophytes will stampede out to check the Petrof 7'9' nearest them.... All the best, Joy

Subject: Re: Joy From: Jon Young To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 11:44:36 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Joy, 'Cork, what grand piano do YOU have? And did you say you were thinking of getting another one? Which one? Dying to know.' Well, when we bought our grand nearly five years ago, we could barely afford $20-25,000. In the end, it came down to a 7' A.B. Chase (1889) in the process of being rebuilt, a new Baldwin SF-10, and the Petrof II. My wife knocked out the Chase, deciding at that time she wanted a new piano. I chose the 7'9' Petrof II over the 7' Baldwin SF-10. Since both have a concert Renner action, the decision was strictly on tone. No instrument is perfect, but though it's only a lowly Petrof there are times that the music it produces brings tears to my eyes. A sensitive instrument suitable to a variety of styles. And yes, earlier this year there was a chance I might have made a considerable sum of money on a specific deal; unfortunately, that didn't happen. My wife had seen an early 20th century Steinway D, and decided that she would indeed like to have a beautiful piano from the Golden Age; had the bucks showered down on the family, I'd have looked for a Knabe, M&H, Steinway, or equivalent from that time period. Now you know my deep, dark secrets. Hope you're not too disappointed! Regards, Cork --- Cork: I read your comment to Joy about your search for a 'golden age' piano to rebuild. Acouple weeks ago , I posted my project of a 1890 Knabe,5'10'', that I am just starting to rebuild. You responed also to my string regarding using bone inlieu of ivorite. Do you feel that the 1890 model fits the qualifications for the prime era of design for the rebuilding investment? Be candid with me. Jon

Subject: For Jon From: Cork To: Jon Young Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 16:59:15 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'Cork: I read your comment to Joy about your search for a 'golden age' piano to rebuild. Acouple weeks ago , I posted my project of a 1890 Knabe,5'10'', that I am just starting to rebuild. You responed also to my string regarding using bone inlieu of ivorite. Do you feel that the 1890 model fits the qualifications for the prime era of design for the rebuilding investment? Be candid with me.' Jon Jon, That's an easy answer. ABSOLUTELY! Knabes were massively overbuilt and the scales were excellent. The 5'10' piano you have should turn into a fabulous instrument. I'm jealous! Cork

Subject: Re: For Jon From: David Burton To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 22:15:19 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Thanks Cork and Jon. I was inspired to write an article on the Golden Age. Hope you enjoy. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/F991205.html

Subject: Re: For David Burton From: Ben To: David Burton Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 23:21:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Your market analysis of the 6' grands and uprights was simply fascinating.Information right to the point and accurate. I enjoy reading your many articles. Why not try to write an article titled 'Getting the best out of your 15k budget'. I would think it would be great because rather than comparing grands and uprights, why not try writing something for what you can get out of your 15k Anyway, nice website. Well done!!

Subject: Re: Especially for Cork & Jonathan From: Jonathan To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 20:36:09 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: We're looking at the one at Artistic Pianos tomorrow! We'll see what she thinks.

Subject: Re: Especially for Cork & Jonathan From: Ben To: Jonathan Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:26:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Re: Cork's suggestion? From: Ben To: Jonathan Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:29:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think that some of the exceptions of baby grands are the Petrof V and Kawai RX-1 (My own personal opinion) Heard that Steingraber is higly rated, but the price is costing a bomb. Went round looking out for Sauters, but couldn't find any.By the way, Comparing uprights and baby grands,does any one feels that there is a sure winner in the top range uprights and baby grands?

Subject: New Steinway B or 30yhr old Steinway D From: Julie M To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 23:50:38 (EST) Email Address: Russ879@aol.com Message: So happy to find this site. I'm looking at 2 Steinways . One is brand new and is the B model, the second is a 30 year old performance piano that has been well taken care of. Space and price is good. I would also like to have it retrofitted with a digital player. The dealer said that is becoming a comman thing with recent purchases. When a salesman of Yamaha's heard of this, I was left a lengthy message trying to discourage me from retrofitting one of these piano's. Any info or advice would be appreciated. Thanks, Julie

Subject: Re: New Steinway B or 30yhr old Steinway D From: Cork To: Julie M Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:25:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Most houses probably cannot handle the volume a Model D can project. Those instruments are designed for a large hall. The Model B is still a very strong instrument, but is a better choice for a home. Steinways are very strongly built, and thus are good instruments for the modification you are considering. If done by a knowledgeable, reputable technician, you should have no problem. Cork

Subject: Re: New Steinway B or 30yhr old Steinway D From: Julie M To: Cork Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 11:13:21 (EST) Email Address: russ879 @aol.com Message: Dear Cork, Thanks for the fast response. My room is 34ft x 18ft. The ceilings are 9 1/2 feet high. Do those demensions change any of your considerations? The other question that I am concerned about if the model D is still a possiblity is the price. The cost is 47,000 befor being retrofitted. Im trying to find sources that can help me evaluate the fairness of the asking price. Any advice? Thanks for everything!!!

Subject: Re: New Steinway B or 30yhr old Steinway D From: Mat D. To: Julie M Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 15:50:34 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Julie, a new S&S model D is reatail: $83,000. Even considering your rather large room , the model B IMO is still the best instrument for that size room; remember the D is meant for concert halls of up to 3500 or morer seats. As for the digital player, be absolutely sure you have a highly qualified installer. You would not want to hack up such a fine instrument as a Steinway B. Be sure you have had some training on the software & features of the digital player before commiting to it. There are a 2-3 doff systems that can do a decent job (pianodisc/Yamaha diskclavier/Baldwin) , get it right the first time! let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Re: New Steinway B or 30yhr old Steinway D From: JulieM To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 16:44:08 (EST) Email Address: russ879@aol.com Message: Mat, thanks for the help. I have decidedto go with the Model B. The dealer has offered it to me for 47,000 new. Do you think this is reasonable? I appreciate the advice. Could you let me know if I should continue to shop around or not. Thanks Julie M

Subject: Re: New Steinway B or 30yhr old Steinway D From: Mat D. To: JulieM Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 23:15:22 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Julie, I think that price is fair for a Steinway B. Steinway is very tight on their prices and it sounds like you got approx 20% off; that is better than what I have heard others getting. If you love the piano (and why wouldn't you) buy it, it's one of the finest instruments made today! Best regards, Mat D. Play your piano in good health!

Subject: carpet versus wood floors for piano From: Jeanne To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 19:23:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently bought a Petrof 50' upright piano, thanks to all your good advice! I would appreciate any advice about whether it really makes a difference, in the sound, tuning, or longevity, whether the piano is on hardwood or carpet. The piano will not be delivered until just before Christmas, and will be in our living room (away from heater) --- -a roome that really needs new carpeting. I am considering getting the floor redone before the piano arrives, and am not sure if I should get hardwood floor or carpet. I might like hardwood floor anyway, but will take longer and is more expensive. I saw somewhere (Fine's book) that the carpet can cause more humidity build up under the piano. Any opinions? Thanks

Subject: And how about marble? From: Jonathan To: Jeanne Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 14:40:45 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Man, this place is a treasure chest for the neophyte! We are building a new house. The piano room is about 16' by 16' with a one foot cabinentry on one side. It is two stories high and open to the foyer (which is also two stories) as well as the family room (open only on story). The side wall is windowless and the back opens up to a SSW direction with a fairly steep hill. The foyer will be marble. I had planned on running that into the piano room. Is that OK? Or should I consider other flooring? I've posted what pianos I am considering, but all are 6' or better grands.

Subject: Re: And how about marble? From: Cork To: Jonathan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 15:05:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Marble should be fine from an acoustic perspective, but you might want to consider the loading on that surface; you are considering some very fine, heavy instruments, and that weight will be concentrated in three relatively small points. Something to bounce off your architect. Cork

Subject: Re: carpet versus wood floors for piano From: David Burton To: Jeanne Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 21:58:52 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I prefer wood floors, less humidity problems in the loacal area around your piano. Better sound too.

Subject: Re: carpet versus wood floors for piano From: ryan To: David Burton Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 22:32:11 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Another issue with uprights is that if you don't have them up on coasters, as the piano sinks into the carpet it can interfere with the pedal function. I don't remember if this can cause any damage or if it's just a temporary interference. I would think the piano would sound better on hardwood floors.

Subject: What about a concrete floor? From: Joy To: ryan Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 03:44:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm planning to remove my ratty wall-to-wall carpeting, exposing the bare concrete, polishing and giving it a fashionable stain-color. I can see wood floors being ideal for an upright, but what about a concrete floor? My trusty M&H upright is 4 inches from the wall, in a room with a vaulted acoustic ceiling. Will the outcome be too harsh sound-wise? The room is big enough to place an Oriental rug in front of the piano,if need be. Any advice?

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: David Burton To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 20:09:43 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Joy and Cork, I read your little exchange about Joy's concrete floor and her son's new encounters with the M&H and how it has stimulated his pianism in new directions. There was no better description that could have crystallized the arguments against electronic keyboards than this; not that electronic keyboards don't have their place, but that they are really no substitute for the real thing. And the comments about an upright making everything sound like a rag was interesting too. Cork's favorite things also interesting. Want to know what the Baldwin SF-10 and SD-10 are about? Get a hold of Ruth Laredo's Scriabin set. It was recorded on a Baldwin SD-10. I tell you all, when you get the right one of these Baldwins and then have it voiced so that it sounds eloquent when played, these Baldwin pianos are right up there with the best. It's just that we have always tended to give the Steinway sound the edge in our estimations. And yes I think Baldwin is a superior jazz piano too; if your primary interest is jazz, I think Baldwin really merits your serious consideration. Other favorite things; Beethoven on a Bechstein, Chopin on a Hamburg Steinway model C, LOL. I liked Schubert on a Bosie too, a LOT, LOL. Made it sound like it was spun from ethereal pearls. But to get back on topic, I think Joy should polish the concrete but leave it whatever color it is and yes put a rug down, WITHOUT A BACKING that tends to grab and hold moisture. I would also stand up in the room and look around at eye level and below for acoustically absorbent surfaces and perhaps hope that there are enough of these to help balance sound from what will probably be a very nice live, clear sounding piano sitting on a bright, hard, acoustically reflective floor. Some people hang modern art pieces made from course yarns and fabrics which usually hang up to two inches out from the wall and are mounted on something that has the consistency of wood or even cork. These panels can be shifted around for optimum sound attenuation; selective deadening to counteract the brilliance of the floor. I would experiment with these before diving in to revoice your piano just yet. After your son has played on it for a year or so, he will then get to know the instrument through its yearly cycle and perhaps some areas needing voicing will appear to him; an octave or one or two notes that seem either a little brighter or duller than they need to be. He'll sense it. Then you can have your piano technician with voicing experience come in and do a revoicing. It sounds like you're having a good time with your piano. Mason & Hamlin are 'teacher' pianos. Every time I play one I learn something.

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: Joy To: David Burton Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 21:55:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Always appreciate your perspectives on previous postings, David.You really round them out! Your advice on what to listen for in terms of acoustics is sound advice (I couldn't resist, ho-ho). I like the idea of experimenting with hangings, though my plan was to keep this to a minimum. I have a lot of framed pictures to choose from, but none of them contain fabric except for one long Chinese silk scroll. What I do have are two area rugs: oriental wool one and a tightly woven (no pile) Escheresque one. There's already a low-lying velvet sofa, chair and ottoman nearby, which will probably help absorb some of the hard reflection of the concrete. This will be fun to fool around with. Thanks again! Best, Joy

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: Cork To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 15:18:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, Hard to tell what the outcome will be, but some adjustment will be available through voicing. From an acoustic perspective, Concrete is a hard, reflective surface that should not materially differ from wood floors, and in fact may have the benefit of not creating a buzz, as some old wood floors (with loose boards) can. Cork

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: Joy To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 15:27:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, Hard to tell what the outcome will be, but some adjustment will be available through voicing. From an acoustic perspective, Concrete is a hard, reflective surface that should not materially differ from wood floors, and in fact may have the benefit of not creating a buzz, as some old wood floors (with loose boards) can. Cork --- Thanks Cork. It didn't occur to me to adjust the piano, but that makes sense! I seem to recall when they did that major renovation at Carnegie Hall, they discovered there was extra concrete reinforcement under the existing stage. They removed the concrete and lo & behold, reviewers say it made a huge difference. But perhaps I am too overly concerned. My home ain't no Carnegie Hall. I'd have wood floors if I could afford it, but now I think it may be a blessing that I don't after all. I hate buzzing.

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: Cork To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 15:38:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, That's a very different situation. A wood stage with space beneath it will have different acoustic characteristics than one with concrete below the wood, and a stage is part of an overall room design to project sound out to the audience. You don't need (or want) a 'stage' in your house, and if you put wood in it would simply be resting on the concrete anyway, right? So you would be putting a hard, reflective surface on a thicker hard, reflective surface . . . point being that you'll end up with more volume from your piano once the ratty old carpet is gone, whether the M&H is sitting on wood OR concrete. And the sound might seem a bit crisper, or carry a bit more of an edge . . . Enjoying the M&H? Cork

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: Joy To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 16:05:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, That's a very different situation. A wood stage with space beneath it will have different acoustic characteristics than one with concrete below the wood, and a stage is part of an overall room design to project sound out to the audience. You don't need (or want) a 'stage' in your house, and if you put wood in it would simply be resting on the concrete anyway, right? So you would be putting a hard, reflective surface on a thicker hard, reflective surface . . . point being that you'll end up with more volume from your piano once the ratty old carpet is gone, whether the M&H is sitting on wood OR concrete. And the sound might seem a bit crisper, or carry a bit more of an edge . . . Enjoying the M&H? Cork --- Cork, I LOVE OUR M&H!!! I can't believe what an wonderful effect it's had on the quality of my son's playing. His tempo, variations in tone, loudness, softness; how having that potential built into the instrument encourages him to be more expressive and his fingering to be more articulate. He used to play a Grieg Sonata the same way he'd play a Joplin rag, if you can believe that were possible! Not anymore. He swears he couldn't help it, our much-older upright was made for rags, so everything comes out sounding like a rag. His Bach now sounds so clean,intellectual,fresh and crisp. He plays the Grieg sonata as though he's in love. Chopin, too. Maybe he's not telling me something (!), but I do know a big part of it is the piano! I think if he ever acquired a grand, he'd still hold onto this upright. Much appreciate your advice and good sense. Joy PS: When work projects lighten up, after holiday shopping (UGH), and fixing my floors, re-positioning all the furniture, etc, etc., maybe just MAYBE I'll attempt to learn a Beethoven Bagatelle I've always loved.

Subject: Re: What about a concrete floor? From: Cork To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 16:52:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Joy, 'I can't believe what an wonderful effect it's had on the quality of my son's playing.' I can. When I moved up to my large grand from my nearly dead vertical and my MIDI system, it heightened my sensitivities and forced me to redevelop my touch. I can't say everything I played sounded like Joplin; Cole Porter, perhaps, but not Joplin. ;-) I had to pound on the vertical to get any volume out -- with the grand I had to re-learn how to play pianissimo. Oh, Lord, how I love fine instruments. Each one I play is a treasure trove of hidden strengths and weaknesses. The power of the mighty B, the finesse of the wonderful BB, the boogie-woogie bass of the SF-10 . . . Bach on a Bechstein, Mozart on a Bosie -- these, indeed, are a few of my favorite things. 'PS: When work projects lighten up, after holiday shopping (UGH), and fixing my floors, re-positioning all the furniture, etc, etc., maybe just MAYBE I'll attempt to learn a Beethoven Bagatelle I've always loved.' To paraphrase the great Yoda, 'No! Do not 'attempt'. 'DO'!' You've certainly got the instrument for it! Rgds, Cork

Subject: Any info on Schaeffer's Piano ? From: Xavier To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 17:42:57 (EST) Email Address: xavier@routeduchampagne.com Message: Hi, I'm supposed to go and look at a Schaeffer PIANO and I was wondering if any of you have heard of this kind of piano. (it's supposed to be a 55' upright). Any info appreciated... thanks.

Subject: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: Lewis To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 23:52:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently posted a post on 'GOOD DEALS' with all the pianos that i'm interested in including the price. I recently drove up west, and visited a huge piano warehouse. It was the authorize dealer of 'PETROF','STEINWAY','SAMICK','KAWAI','SCHIMMEL', 'YAMAHA'and 'SCHIMMEL'.Boy, it was a huge warehouse with more than 15,000 sq.ft! A friendly and honest salesman came and helped me in the selection of my piano. 1)I'm taking my diploma this year and currently has a 'SAMICK' 121cm upright. I've long wanted a baby grand and after reading some of the posts here persuading people not to buy grands below 6 foot,i've straightened out my thinking and included top-of-the-line uprights onto my list also.(I just hope that i can get a very good baby grand that topples all the rest.) 2)My budget is SG$20,000.I have limited space just enough to squeeze a 5'7.I'm not ready to look into refurbished pianos except used ones that are below 5 years of age. 3)Below are the list of pianos that i favour most among all the other brands.Hope you guys can help me make a selection because i'm getting a real headache hunting around for pianos for the past year. The list __________ PETROF 1)5'3 baby grand (i think it's PETROF 5) $15,300 2)131cm upright (top-of-the-line with renner action) $12,000 KAWAI 1)5'5 RX-1 Baby Grand $18,800 2)5'5 KF-1 Baby Grand $16,000 3)5'0 GM-2 Baby Grand $12,250 4)131cm 'Upright Grand' (K-60) $12,650 YAMAHA 1)5'3 GP1 Baby Grand $13,300 2)5'3 C1 Baby Grand $18,000 3)131cm 'U1' Upright Grand $15,800 SAMICK 1)5'3 Baby Grand $13,500 (I'm not really fond of samick uprights) SCHIMMEL(They are expensive!!) 1)131cm (top-of-the-line with pianodisk) $16,260 (I can't afford the grands,moreover,they are too big) Steinway is definetly out of the question unless i can find a used one.I'm looking out for used MASON & HAMLINS but suprisingly, the salesperson has never heard of the brand before.The Ibach 7 footer grand really took my head off.I loved it among all the rest except for it's price : $43,000.I liked the sound of the 5'7 STEINGRAEBER when i heard it in my church. Does any one has any idea on the price of this piano?? This piano hunt is driving me nuts!!!But it was quite fun though.Guys, help me make a choice.Is there any other brands that i can consider? Thanks in advance

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: ryan To: Lewis Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 14:08:39 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I agree with Cork. I would probably lean toward the vertical, see if I could negotiate a better price, and save a couple of thousand dollars. The 5'7' Steingraeber is a fantastic piano, that lists for the low, low price of $50,000 in the basic ebony. I played one recently in ebony and burled walnut that I believe had a $66,000 sticker on it. $43,000 for the 7' Ibach sounds like a great price for that particular piano; was it new?

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: Lewis To: ryan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 04:23:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The 7 footer Ibach is a used 2 year old.It was in imaculate condition when i viewed it.It was in ebony polish.Just tuned up, and with voicing done when it was new.$ 43K is certainly a steal but i'm not willing to stretch my budget that much.Besides, i don't think i have that much space to fit a 7 footer.But i've not played a Steingraeber so i don't know how good it is.I've heard it-it sounds fantastic with a very big sound equavilent to a 6 footer!!The price seems to be very steep___way beyond my price range. What about the Petrof,Kawai,Schimmel and Yamaha baby grands??they are within my limit but i'm not too sure which is the best. I personally liked the Kawai but does anyoner has any comments on these brands?? Thanks alot

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: ryan To: Lewis Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 10:20:10 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: It's hard to recommend a baby grand, especially these which I haven't played in recent years. I have heard that both the Kawai and Petrof are pretty good pianos, even at that size, but can't comment from experience. The Kawai seems to be priced pretty high, so the Petrof might be a better value. However, if you liked the Kawai better, that will be more important. What did you think of the Petrof and Kawai uprights? I am in the same boat: I have very little space, I need/want a killer piano, and am cash constrained to less than $20,000. I played a few baby grands, but I just can't seem to like them in terms of tone and touch. I am not trying to sway you, that's just my preference. The smallest grand one I liked was the Steingraeber, which is WAY out of my price range. Everything is a compromise: small grands have compromises in scale, tone, action, key size, etc. Uprights have compromises in action, pedal function, and case design. However, I think I have a found an acceptable compromise for my situation . I am purchasing a Sauter 130 vertical and am very impressed with this piano. The action is very fast and articulate, and doesn't seem to have any problems with repetition speed, and the tone is gorgeous. I would put it up against most grands that are 6' and under, especially for the money. The 130 is around $15,000. The cheapest grand that I would consider as a replacement is the Charles Walter, which is priced around $30,000. That means that I would have to pay twice as much for a new grand piano that I like as well, which makes this seem like a great deal. I get to practice on a piano I really like, and get to save toward my long term goal of owning a fine 7' grand some day. Hope this helps, Ryan

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: Cork To: Lewis Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 13:52:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lewis, Given your space and $ limitations, my first and second choices from that list would be the Petrof V and the Petrof 131. The RX1 price seems high relative to the Petrof V, as does that of the C1. The other grands are not worth your consideration. As for the uprights, any of the large ones you mention would be fine. Good luck, Cork

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: John C. To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 11:41:20 (EST) Email Address: jcampbell@mofo.com Message: Jumping in, in the sub-$20,000 area are also the 5'10' Boston and the Yamaha C-2 or C-3 (that is in this market, Northern California, anyway). The Yamahas are 5'8' and 6'1' respectively. Any views on those from this group?

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: ryan To: John C. Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 12:40:46 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I think any of those mentioned would be worth checking out. The 5'10' Boston is almost good:-) I didn't realize, though, that you could touch them for under $20,000. Ryan

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: Lewis To: ryan Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 23:25:12 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ryan, i decided to drive up to the piano dealer again sometime this week to check out the SAUTER. When i called them, they also recommended me to check out on the 'August Forster' piano.He rated this more higly then the SAUTER. Not too sure about his comments but i'm starting to keep a look out on Good and top of the line uprights. Any thoughts about Kawai's upright grands and Yamaha's U5? The U5 was simply fantastic.I just wanted some comments from you guys. I really preffered the fallboard of the upright piano to be like that of the grand. Only the U5 and kawai upright grands have that feature. Aother feature that was the most attractive was the Fake ivory heys which KAWAI called them Neotex while Yamaha called them Ivorite. The most interseting was the 'soft-fall fallboard'. I heard that Yamaha produces a kind of piano that is 'GRANTOUCH' .It is a digital piano but not too sure wheteher this could be considered into my list. Any comments?

Subject: Re: On My Recent Post On 'GOOD DEAL' From: Lewis To: Lewis Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 09:27:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: Check out Schulze Pollmann 126E! From: Young S. To: Lewis Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 13:43:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Dear Lewis, Why don't you check out Schulze Pollmann 126E (upright)? Inspired by some postings in the forum, I tried one myself. And I fell in love with it right away! I was searching for a piano myself and tried several including Kawai professional uprights, Yamaha U-series, Petrof 125 and grands, Charles Walter, and even Steinway grands, just to check out. (I haven't met Sauter yet unfortunately.) Among uprights, I liked Walter and Petrof for their touch and sound. And I LOVED SCHULZE POLLMANN for everything. Guessing from your last posting saying 'Any thoughts about Kawai's upright grands and Yamaha's U5? The U5 was simply fantastic.', I think you like a little brighter tone rather than mellow ones. Schulze Pollmann's tone is not too mellow. Not that it sounds bright as Yamaha or Kawai (Sorry I personally don't care for bright sound.) S. Pollmann sounds so clean and pure but still retains 'the feel'. I don't know how to describe. You should try it. I play Mason & Hamlin A (grand) all the time and tried several high good grands during the search. Don't get me wrong. I love the Mason & Hamlin and I know those grands are great. But Schluze Pollmann upright (126E-50') is NO inferior to most grands. It's that good. By the way it's within your financial reach. My local dealer marked down it to $8,500 for its sale. Depending on local condition, probably you can get it around $9,500 - $10,000. Of course, for much less if you are lucky! Good luck! Young

Subject: Re: Am i correct? From: lewis To: Young S. Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:26:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would think that for $14,000, the Petrof V should be the best bargain around the baby grands. Kawai's Upright grands were also not too bad, has the sostuneto pedal, grand piano fallboard, music rack, and fake ivory keys. But for $16,000, i don't think i could consider one. Am i correct to say that in the baby grand market, Petrof takes the clear lead with Kawai trailing behind??

Subject: Piano buzzes From: Lawarence To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 16:50:24 (EST) Email Address: lstringer@uniserve.com Message: I have a buzzing noise in my piano which neither my tuner technician nor myself have been able to locate. It sounds like a small mettle object was left on the cast iron frame and rattles when a note is played. It is most noticible on the first A above middle C. If I play this note several dozen times the buzzing noise will sometimes dissappear or shift up or down half a tone. Sometimes it will shift up a fifth to E. It comes and goes disapearing for a couple of weeks at a time but always returning again. I use the piano daily and keep it in a proper room away from heat vents and windows etc. The temperature and humidity is kept constant. The piano is a 6' Kawai grand (GS-40) nine years old. The buzzing noise is in the middle treble area of the piano. It is not originating from any loose parts of the piano such as the piano lid or music stand nor is it a result of vibrations from any objects in the room. The noise is not coming from any part of the key assembly or action as far as I can tell. This little problem has been frustrating as I live in a remote area where piano tuner technicians visit only twice a year and the rattle is not usually present when the tuner technician is. This is like a pebble in your shoe which sooner or later must be dealt with. I thought if I described this problem it might be something that someone else has experienced or perhaps this is something that tuner technicians come across sometimes. If you could offer any advice reqarding this it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Subject: Re: Piano buzzes From: Sue To: Lawarence Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 07:32:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Lawrence You have done a wonderful job describing the buzzing creature that also lives inside my piano. The sporadic and traveling nature of it is really most puzzling and frustrating. However the last time my technician visited we discovered the most likely culprit. I shared with him that if I played the soft pedal the buzz completely disappeared. As it turned out that was the key to the source. I have climate control in my 52' upright, and the water bucket must be suspended because of the way the pedal system runs. It is a tight fit and occasionally the bucket was close enough to the knee board to begin vibrating. When I would press the soft pedal the bucket was lifted by the pedal mechanism and the sound would quit. He adjusted the bucket and suggested that I glue felt to the outside of it...which I haven't yet done. Now when I hear a buzz I can tell whether it is the bucket vibrating...and guess what...sometimes it isn't. But unlike the pebble in my shoe which I can easily solve by removing my shoe and dumping the irritant, I will call my technician and when he arrives, like a ghost there will be no buzz. As a long time reader of this forum I am sure it has been said before that buzzes are among the most frustrating of problems to solve, which is further complicated by your rural location. I am really in a similar situation and am currently searching for a top notch technician who would be willing to travel the two plus hours to put my piano in top condition. I think with winter approaching Spring might be my earliest hope. I am sure I have not solved your problem, but maybe I have given you a little hope. If your lucky maybe Mr. Granholm or Cindy will respond. Good Luck! sue

Subject: Prices for Bostons From: John C To: All Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 00:36:25 (EST) Email Address: jcampbell@mofo.com Message: I can tell that this group plays at a level well above a boston piano, but if any of you know I'd like to get a sense of pricing for their 5'10' model, which is quoted to me at a 'firm' 'nonnegotiable' $20,600 before I have even made an offer. I gather that these are priced like steinways since there aren't many dealers or competition for sales. This seems high to me. Any experience out there?

Subject: Re: Prices for Bostons From: JK To: John C Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 06:38:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: John, I'm with Cork.Check out the Kawai RX series or better still the Yamaha Conservatory C2 5'8' or C3 6'1'.The Boston is made in Japan by Kawai for Steinway.Steinway dealers don't normally discount.They don't have to.There are only 80 or so dealers and they are highy discourged from doing so.Your price is high.Every price is negotiable, at least where I'm from.Good luck John. JK

Subject: Re: Prices for Bostons From: Cork To: John C Date Posted: Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 01:33:35 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: 'I can tell that this group plays at a level well above a boston piano . . . ' LOL! Haven't heard me practice, obviously! John, some dealers discount less than others. Your options are to attempt to bargain the price down, accept the price and buy the piano, consider alternatives (the Kawai RX series is an obvious place to start), or contact other Boston/Steinway dealers in other cities. I'm sorry, I'm not up on the current pricing for Bostons, but that seems high to me, too. Some Steinway dealers are less inclined to discount than others. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Baby Grand Piano From: Alex Krebs To: All Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 13:29:37 (EST) Email Address: alexkrebs@usa.net Message: Can a Baby Grand Piano fit through a doorway that is 27" wide and 70" high? The doorway is clear on both sides--these dimensions are the only potential obstacle. I have a prospective tenant who needs to know. Please help! thank you! Alex Krebs

Subject: Re: Baby Grand Piano From: David Burton To: Alex Krebs Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 20:37:07 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: You should have no trouble getting a grand piano on its back on a dolly through a 27' doorway. The problems usually occur when there is an angle around a corner that people sometimes try to get a heavy and inflexible thing like a piano around. If the entrance is straight through into another room without any corners then you should be fine. ALWAYS GET AN EXPERIENCED PIANO MOVER TO MOVE A PIANO.

Subject: Steinway pianos & others From: Allen To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 14:25:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Reading through the questions/answers/comments in the Forum, it seems that many contributors don't hold Steinway pianos in very high regard. I own a Steinway Sheraton (studio) piano that I bought several years ago and like very much. I will admit that it took lots & lots of work & tuning to bring its tonal quality to the point where it is now and where I'm satisfied with it. I recently added a 16'x20' room onto my home and planned to trade my Sheraton for a Steinway grand (Model L or B, though I'm afraid the B might be too large for the room). Now I'm starting to think that maybe I should keep the studio piano and consider some other makes of grand. In this part of Ohio where I live, people think of Steinway automatically and pretty exclusively when they think of 'good' pianos. Apparently that isn't necessarily the case in other areas. Comments and opinions are appreciated. Thanks to all.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Cork To: Allen Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 17:41:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Another great thread. I'll reiterate a few points that others have made in various messages: 1. Steinways are excellent instruments, but there are alternatives. When you are spending that much money you owe it to yourself to explore those other alternatives. Still, Steinway remains the standard by which all others are measured. 2. Once you move into the top tier, anything you buy will be an excellent instrument, and your choice should come down to your personal preference in touch and tone. YOUR preference; not mine, not the other contributors', not the salesman's . . . it's your money, it's your choice. 3. Your room is definitely large enough for a B. Finally, I'll disagree with some of my friends and say that I'd never consider a Steinway L. In my opinion, it cannot hold a candle to the B or to other fine instruments in it's price class. You'd be far better off finding a used Steinway A that's been rebuilt. Cork

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Allen To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 10:05:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for your reply, Cork. As usual, you condensed a great deal of wisdom into few words. Too many people have spoken out against the Steinway Model L and in favor of the B. I've pretty much dismissed the idea of buying the L. You speak of 'exploring alternatives.' I'd be curious to know what new piano alternatives you yourself would explore if you were considering the purchase of a Steinway B. Many thanks again to all.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Cork To: Allen Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 17:43:44 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Allen, That's a question I've given a great deal of thought, since earlier this year there was a chance my financial situation might enable me to make just such a choice. Unfortunately, things did not work out quite the way I'd planned. ;-) First, I'd say that I would not limit myself to 'new piano alternatives'. Some of the finest instruments available are rebuilt/remanufactured grands, particularly those from, say, 1895 - 1925, depending on the builder. From the early end of that period, for instance, I'd seek a 7' or larger Knabe, builders of some of the finest instruments ever made. It's been said that Knabe is the only designer that actually terrified Steinway, his pianos were that good. Mason & Hamlin BB's from prior to the Crash are the basis of the M&H legend. There are a large number of other brands that could provide similar examples. Of course, pre-war S&S B's would be on the list without doubt. Buying an older instrument is somewhat more risky, but the rewards can be incredible. Anyone that's played a number of Steinways will tell you that each one has it's own 'personality', and I think that is largely true of many of the great pianos, particularly those from the Golden Age above. Many of these older instruments have beautiful woods and designs you cannot match today, as well. I'd also consider Del Fandrich's 'Killer B's', Steinway B's rebuilt and rescaled by Del. Many people consider that a travesty to change the scale on a Steinway, but frankly maintaining the integrity of Steinway's historical design to protect their name isn't high on my priority list: buying the best instrument for my tastes and abilities is. If the Killer B's are as good as I've been told by friends in the Northwest, I sure as heck want to have the chance to try one. And on the list of older instruments, I'd seek a Steinway Model C; I've only played two of them, but they left indelible impressions on my memory. Moving on to new instruments, I'd include the Hamburg Steinway B, considered by many to be better than the New York product. I'd also consider buying a new Model C, still made by the Hamburg factory, I believe. The new Mason & Hamlin BB is a must to audition; it deserves the rave reviews you constantly read here. I've already considered and bypassed the Baldwin SF-10, but it is worth considering if you haven't played one. Moving to Europe, the number of excellent brands is staggering. Bechstein, Bluethner, Boesendorfer, Fazioli, and Grotrian spring to mind; I have friends who are ardent admirers of each of these brands except Fazioli (none of my friends are that rich!), which is famous enough to warrant a trial. One step down in reputation, but perhaps still worthy of consideration, are Seiler and Sauter. Given a 7' limit, that probably is the extent of the list. No mass-produced instruments on the list, a wide variety of tone styles and prices, but all deserving of consideration. Hope there is something of interest to you in the rambling above. (I sure had fun writing it!) Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: ryan To: Cork Date Posted: Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 11:23:50 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Cork, just one more plug. The Sauter 7' grand might be a step down in reputation, but it's definately worth consideration. I played one again last night and some of what I played was breathtaking. Right now I think it nudges out the Steinway B in my opinion, and it's less money. Talk about tuning stability. It spent at least 6 weeks in a crate, yet when it arrived it was in tune and in pretty good regulation.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: CC To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 23:19:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been away from this forum a few days, and just wanted to say what great information you guys had in this post. I know someday I'll want to upgrade - I sure hope you guys are still around!

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos ARE From: David Burton To: Allen Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 08:26:17 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Every pianist remembers their first encounter with a Steinway and all the other encounters that follow. I have encountered as many Steinways that I couldn't play simply because they were owned by people who killed them through terrible abuse. The ones that I have been fortunate to play have been at least good and always memorable and occasionally sublime. There's nothing quite like the certain very personal tug one gets from playing a Steinway. You know down deep inside that you are playing 'The' piano and that no matter how exotic or expensive others might be that Steinway, under the right circumstances, would be your piano. Now, someone has said that 'they aren't the only game in town'. While that's certainly true, you can't usually play in the same league as Steinway without shelling out Steinway dollars. That's what eveyone's been trying to do for the longest time; break some of Steinway's incredible monopoly over what we have all sort of come to expect a great piano should feel and sound like. I do not think that Baldwin has done it. I do not think the Japanese have done it. Mason & Hamlin have perhaps come the closest. Take a look at my article The Six Foot Grand on my website and you'll see all sorts of possible games. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ Whether any of them are Steinway's game for half the money I don't know. I kind of doubt it.

Subject: Great list! From: ryan To: David Burton Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 13:55:07 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: David, great list of 6' grands. It really puts the pricing into perspective. You really can't get something for nothing; if you want something that's in the same league as Steinway you are going to pay for it. Interestingly, I may actually like the Sauter 185 better than the Steinway L. It would be interesting to create a list of uprights over 50' and see if there is a cross-over in terms of quality. In other words are there uprights that are better than some of the grands? It would be a pretty good indicator of value. It's my opinion that you can get uprights that are as good as or better than many grands on this list for much less money.

Subject: Re: Great list! From: David Burton To: ryan Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 08:06:00 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Ryan said, 'It would be interesting to create a list of uprights over 50' and see if there is a cross-over in terms of quality. In other words are there uprights that are better than some of the grands? It would be a pretty good indicator of value. It's my opinion that you can get uprights that are as good as or better than many grands on this list for much less money.' Oh, I'm sorry, I just had to take you up on it except that I let the 48'ers in and even some shorter ones where I thought they were interesting or just had to be included. So, go check out my website at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ I learned quite a lot, about just what you can buy with various kinds of money in serious upright pianos. There is a lot to choose from that's serious out there. The $10K break sure is interesting. Astin-Weight's 50' sits right there. The big Petrof 131 52' is cheaper but not by much. Right between them is Fandrich's own piano. So right there you have the 2 American innovators; Astin-Weight and Fandrich in company with the other big innovator of a different kind; Petrof. Of course for $4K cheaper you can by a Charles Walter, the shortest piano on my survey at 45', but my reports are that this is quite a piano. It comes with a full size, single blow action, so it fits the entrance criteria in other ways. And check out those huge Story & Clarks. Has anyone actually seen them? Check out all the strange stuff going on in Asia. Check out all the machinations with Petrof and others over on the eastern front. For instance, I can recommend Bohemia/Rieger-Kloss as worth checking out. They make a 48' piano for $5,200. That's not too bad. If they need prep, give it to them, they'll turn out to be great pianos. I played a Bohemia once, it was very, very nice. I'll also want to find out about the Baldwin 248A 48' piano since it's a new model for them. It's loaded for bear too and aimed at the Yamaha U1. Have to check one out soon. Some pianos may be available only on the East Coast for a while too, like a German hybrid called Mechlenburg and a French designed piano called the Blondel which are built by Petrof as well as almost a half dozen English brands, Knight being the most famous. The English pianos are often bright sounding and have a lot of punch, but nevertheless are capable of great subtlety. Some of them are being offered in limited runs to see how well the American market responds to them. It's getting pretty interesting.

Subject: Re: Great list! From: ryan To: David Burton Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 20:23:43 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Another cool list. Both of these lists are great references, especially if you are looking for a new piano. Where did you get the price data? Also, the vertical Sauter I've been talking about is the 130, which you show at 14,900. That's basically the same as what I will have to pay for it. I went out and played some of the Steinway uprights this weekend, and the Sauter has it all over them in touch and tone. Not to mention the Steinway sales guy was about the most arrogant Steinway snob I have ever encountered. He went so far as to state that Bosendorfer was really nice furniture! Whatever... Anyway, thanks for putting together these lists! Ryan

Subject: Re: Great list! From: Mat D. To: ryan Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 23:39:03 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Ryan, I've had the same experience with some Steinway sales people. They are so upset that I bought a Mason & Hamlin, all they can do is try to slam the M&H in an indirect way--I just go home, play my piano & smile! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Great list! From: David Burton To: Mat D. Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 04:29:18 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: You know, probably most of my desire to see some of the stuffing kicked out of Steinway has to do with the arrogance of their salespeople. You'd better look rich if you walk into Steinway Hall in New York or they treat you like dirt. I've always liked Steinways but I'm hoping some day to meet what has seemed to me to be an oxymoron; a humble and kind Steinway salesman.

Subject: Steinway salespeople: From: John D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 15:26:26 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You know, probably most of my desire to see some of the stuffing kicked out of Steinway has to do with the arrogance of their salespeople. You'd better look rich if you walk into Steinway Hall in New York or they treat you like dirt. I've always liked Steinways but I'm hoping some day to meet what has seemed to me to be an oxymoron; a humble and kind Steinway salesman. --- I certainly cannot comment on every salesperson at Steinway, however the one I had late last year was certainly not arrogant. On my first visit to Steinway Hall in NYC, I did not look rich - blue jeans/flannel shirt. I was promptly greeted and stated I was interested in their model B. The salesman spent a lot of time with me without asking anything even remotely to do with my financial situation. He didn't even know if I had a job! I did not 'fall in love' with any piano during my first visit and made 4 more visits - each time the salesman was just as pleasant. When I mentioned other pianos that I was looking at, he did not make any negative comments about them. However, he certainly did push Steinway as a wonderful piano - can't blame him... Anyway, I did not buy a Steinway but got what is, in my opinion, a nicer sounding piano - for a few thousand less than a new B. When I told the Steinway salesman I had purchased a piano, he wished me the best. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Steinway salespeople: From: Bruce To: John D. Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 02:07:29 (EST) Email Address: peano86381@aol.com Message: John: Nice to hear your comments. It's refeshing to hear some nice comments on salespersons for a change!:-) Bruce

Subject: John's piano-I think?? From: Mat D. To: John D. Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 23:44:54 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: John, You've got the Falcone 7', right? Nice piano! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Giselle To: Allen Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 06:55:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Don't worry Allen. I live all the way over in Australia and only today I asked my music teacher which was the best brand of piano. I think you will be pleased to note that the first thing she said was that steinways are the 'rolls royce' of piano and told me how lovely they were to play.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: ryan To: Allen Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 15:47:57 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I actually love Steinway pianos and hold them in high regard, it's just that they aren't the only game in town. I really like the power and dynamic range you get with a good Steinway piano and have always enjoyed performing on many model D concert grands. Steinways are in a class where the differences between them and other brands can often boil down to personal preferences. Steinways are notorious for requiring a lot of work to get into optimal shape as you noted, but lots of the world class pianos seem to improve with age, use, and work. At any rate, it wouldn't hurt to look around at other world-class pianos to get an idea of what the competition has to offer, which can help you make a better informed decision.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Allen To: ryan Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 16:40:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Ryan, thanks for your reply. Would you mind specifying some of the other 'world-class' pianos that you yourself would consider before making a piano purchase? Thanks in advance. Allen

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Mat D. To: Allen Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 22:30:11 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Allen, There is certainly nothing wrong with a good Steinway, but do yourself a favor & check out the Mason & Hamlins. A fellow Piano Forum reader recently bought one on my suggestion & he is ecstatic about his piano. He is from the Cincinnati area (I don't know where in Ohio you are from) so there are dealers there somewhere; he had to drive 2 hours from home, but bought the piano on the spot!! If you have any specific questions regarding Mason & Hamlin, contact Cecil Ramirez (M&H National sales Mgr.) cecil@pianodisc.com He will be happy to inform you --- tell him Mat D. from Detroit, Michigan sent you. I am not a M&H rep, I'm just a very happy enthusiastic M&H BB owner. Check it out, you'll be glad you did. Regards, mat D.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: ryan To: Allen Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 17:50:11 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Here is a list of 'world-class' pianos that I have played and enjoyed very much, in no order of preference: Bosendorfer, Steingraeber, Steinway, Mason & Hamlin, Stauter, Bechstein and Grotrian. There are some other pianos that are considered to be in the same class that I have not played: Ibach, Fazzioli, and possibly Schulze-Pollman. Another grand that I really liked, although I haven't yet had the chance to give it a thorough shakedown is the Charles Walter. In my brief encounter I really liked it's touch and it's depth of tone. Of the ones that I have played Bosendorfer and Steingraeber were probably my favorite, although they are VERY expensive. I recently played a Sauter 7' and was amazed at the power and singing tone of this piano. It's very explosive and sounds more like a concert grand than most 7' pianos. It really turned my head. It's action feels more like a Steinway to me than the traditional 'German' action. I am going to try to get to a Steinway B this weekend to compare it to the Sauter, but I think I may like the Sauter better. I also played a Grotian 7' recently, which had a beautiful, complex tone quality that was different than almost any other piano I have played, but this particular piano didn't have the power that the Sauter had. A lot of people REALLY like the Mason & Hamlin grands. I have played some, and thought they were really good pianos, but I just didn't fall in love with them like others have. Too many years playing Steinways I guess:-) I don't need a 7' grand yet, and don't have a place to put one, but someday I am going to want one and right now the Sauter looks very interesting. You made a comment about a 7' grand being too big for your room. If you can afford it and if you have room, I would personally go for a 7' grand over anything smaller. It seems like you get a lot more piano with 7' vs. something smaller. The tone improves a LOT, as does the expressiveness and dynamic range. I am currently buying an upright that has the same size strings as a 6'1' grand. Someday when I have room I will probably keep the upright and get a 7' grand to complement it.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: MacDuff To: ryan Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 01:25:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: On the logistics side of it, having an upright in a more 'private' area of a house for hashing new notes or practicing those ever-so-dull-for-the-listener scales and Hanon can create more family harmony. A grand could be in a more public area and, if you play a great deal, having both a grand and upright could save some wear on the grand's hammers over the years.

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Cork To: MacDuff Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 17:31:49 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: These are excellent points. The sound of a 7' grand will permeate the furthest reaches of all but millionaire's mansions. I do my scales on my 88 weighted-key Korg MIDI keyboard, with headphones on. Cork

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Joy To: Cork Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 20:14:27 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How much do one of those typically go for?

Subject: Re: Steinway pianos & others From: Cork To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 21:28:53 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Gosh, Joy; haven't really priced one lately. The one I own is considered something of a classic pro MIDI piano: the Korg SGX-1D. You can find them used for around $900; I think I paid $2,500 ten or eleven years ago. Here's a sort summary I found on it: 'The SG-1D and SGX-1D (an updated Steinway sample that came out in '87) was about the only decent sounding sampled piano for years. It is far outclassed by others now, and even the new Korg SGproX has a sample of this old beast in it. But if you look in the July 1995 issue of Keyboard magazine, there is a box on page 82 that tells all about this guy. It even wound up beating one of the newer pianos in a blindfold test in a couple areas, and came very close to Kurzweil, Roland, and Yamaha piano in the quality of sound dept. I've used this piano for years as a controller. It is pretty light in the master controller area, but has a good, solid feel and is dependable as anything. It's only been in the shop once in 7 years, and that's because it fell while being transported in a gig bag! Nice, bright sound for cutting through in band settings, and you can always MIDI it up to one of the great sounding, cheap boxes out there. HEAVY, by today's standards, but would make a great 88 ke! y weighted controller for a studio or home MIDI environment. A very playable, if somewhat dated, piano.' It's great limitation, in my mind, is that it can only play about 12 notes simultaneously . . . but for practice purposes, that's not too much of a limitation. There are others: Roland RD-600, A-90, and A-90EX, for instance; several from Yamaha; Kurzweil PC-88 & K2500EX; Ensoniq KT88; Alesis QS8. I think the Yamaha, Kurzweil, Ensoniq, and Alesis units all use the same 'action' (keys and weighting system) made by Fatar; I think it's a bit on the soft side, not very piano-like. Many people like the Roland action; I don't find it any better than the Korg, and I like Korg quality and I think they sound better than Roland. If I were to replace this axe, I'd probably get a Korg SGProX (or Korg Trinity, which is really more of a synthesizer work station). Cork If you are really interested, let me know and I'll do a quick search on the Internet for prices for you.

Subject: On quiet practicing From: Joy To: Cork Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 00:27:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thanks for offering to do a quick search for current prices on MIDI pianos. I think we will pass for now. I showed the information you generously shared to my son, who read it all carefully, then said, 'That's OK. I don't think I'll need one just yet, but it's good to know what the possibilities are for practicing silently if I had to.' Funny thing is, we recently got a DVD-TV with surround sound speakers, which seem to resonate through the beams of the house.I can FEEL it. I suspect once we remove the carpeting in the living room where the M&H is,the piano will resonate too. Given the acoustics in our house, even with 2 stories, the M&H and the DVD will have to take turns. Should be even more interesting with the concrete floors! So when I saw your comment on using earphones, well . . . . I think my son is simply enjoying how his new M&H sounds in our home too much to consider going electronic. Maybe I'd better look into earphones for the DVD!

Subject: 1904 Kohler & Campbell From: db To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 18:48:21 (EST) Email Address: dburke@cwis.net Message: I am looking for information about a 1904 kohler & Campbell baby grand piano. I need to Know if anybody has a name or Phone number where I could call to get information about this piano. Any help would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: 1904 Kohler & Campbell From: Cork To: db Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 21:18:00 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am looking for information about a 1904 kohler & Campbell baby grand piano. I need to Know if anybody has a name or Phone number where I could call to get information about this piano. Any help would be appreciated. --- There really isn't much info available on specific instruments within a line, beyond what little info previous owners might have passed on to you. If you are interested in learning about the condition or value of the piano, contact a local professional piano technician to evaluate it for you. The value is completely dependent on the condition, and only an on-site inspection by a tech will reveal the latter. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Este Pianos From: Kelly To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 11:06:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What is an Este piano ( Made in 1889) worth nowadays?

Subject: Re: Este Pianos From: Cork To: Kelly Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 16:11:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: That depends more on the condition of the piano than the name on the fallboard. No one can determine it's value over the Internet; consider having a local piano technician evaluate the instrument and give you an idea of it's worth. Cork

Subject: General Information From: Piano To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 10:28:15 (EST) Email Address: Ariasdream@webtv.net Message: I am a private piano instructor who has a clientele of ages 6 and up. I was curious if there were any other piano instructors out there and what techniques you use. Also, what methods do you use to keep young children interested. Thanks!

Subject: Re: General Information From: Andrew To: Piano Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 13:49:21 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Are you familiar with a magazine 'Clavier'? There are myriads of answers to your question. That magazine, IMHO, should be required reading for all piano teachers. It will be tough to answer on this board considering the space it will probably need. Andrew

Subject: General Information From: Sheryl To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Dec 02, 1999 at 10:28:42 (EST) Email Address: Ariasdream@webtv.net Message: I am a private piano instructor who has a clientele of ages 6 and up. I was curious if there were any other piano instructors out there and what techniques you use. Also, what methods do you use to keep young children interested. Thanks!

Subject: Baldwins & Kawais From: Kelly Schutz To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 19:15:48 (EST) Email Address: kellyschutz@prodigy.net Message: I'm looking at a Baldwin Console and a Kawai console (model 503 or 505) I'd like to hear imput from other about quality of the two makers and which is a better choice and why.

Subject: Re: Baldwins & Kawais From: Cork To: Kelly Schutz Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 14:28:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'm looking at a Baldwin Console and a Kawai console (model 503 or 505) I'd like to hear imput from other about quality of the two makers and which is a better choice and why. --- Kelly, Pick up a copy of 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine, an excellent resource for piano shoppers. I'd agree with David; the console-size instrument is too small. Cork

Subject: Re: Baldwins & Kawais From: David Burton To: Kelly Schutz Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 22:00:01 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: They'reprobably both too short.

Subject: Yamaha 5'3'' difference between GP1 and GH1B From: Ben To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 17:11:57 (EST) Email Address: btse@c3smail.monmouth.army.mil Message: I want to purchase a Yamaha 5'3' for my kids who just started learning a few months ago. I am not a player myself and that's why I am having trouble to make a decision between a GP1 and GH1B. I understand that GH1 costs a little more than GP1. But why should I pay a higher price if the two models are basically the same as my dealer told me. He did tell me the differences on the physical appearance. But what about material and quality between the two models? Does the GH1B have a much better sound than the GP1. Any information for helping me to make a wise choice will be appreciated. Thanks Ben

Subject: Re: Yamaha 5'3'' difference between GP1 and GH1B From: Cork To: Ben Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 14:23:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The material differences between the two are relatively minor, do not affect tone, and should not affect longevity. As for making a 'wise choice', my recommendation would be to shift your focus to larger grands (at least 5'8') or large uprights (at least 48' tall). The GP1 and GH1B are not great instruments. Frankly, you'd be better off with a U1. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Yamaha Grand From: George To: All Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 14:02:59 (EST) Email Address: georgeb@thezone.net Message: I am seeking information on a Yamaha Grand Piano 5,3 serial number 918159 . I am not sure of the model its either C1 or GH1B. I would like to know what to look for in this model, how good is it ralatively speaking and what is the current value of this instrument. If you have any info please drop me a line. George

Subject: Help-Howard Baby Grand Information From: Susan Haslet To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 17:08:15 (EST) Email Address: shaslet@longwood.lwc.edu Message: I am considering placing a bid on a Howard Baby Grand at an estate auction this weekend. Unfortunately, I am unsure what kind of condition it is in, its age, etc. My only information is that it is mahogany. Can anyone give me information on the Howard's quality, perhaps the age range it falls into, and most importantly the potential value of the piano? I realize that any value estimate would be a 'guesstimate,' but a range would be helpful. Thanks in advance for you assistance!

Subject: Re: Help-Howard Baby Grand Information From: Jim K To: Susan Haslet Date Posted: Wed, Dec 01, 1999 at 07:40:19 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Susan, Many things to look for. No cracks in the soundboard, bridges or pinblock. The Howard was built by Baldwin and is an average piano. Measure the piano from the end of the keys to where the piano curves in the back.Also get the serial #,remove music rack should be by the tuning pins. This will tell me the age.Ask where the piano came from, the last time it was tuned, does it hold tune? does the piano have a matching bench? Good Luck Jim :)

Subject: Yamaha C2/3 and Boston From: John C To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 01:46:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I've been looking at a Yamaha C2 or C3 in the San Francisco area. Prices being quoted, after some negotiation, are in the $14,700 range for the C2 and $20,000 for the C3. If anyone has experience with pricing in the California region on these I'd love to hear it--elsewhere on this board it looks like these are pretty high. Have just started considering a Boston piano instead, probably the 5'3' one as the 5'8' isn't available in the near future. This is priced at around $18,000. I'd be interested in views about the quality and longevity of the Boston vs. the C2 and C3, particularly, as well as the Boston pianos (smaller ones) generally. Thanks

Subject: Re: Yamaha C2/3 and Boston From: Jim K To: John C Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 07:40:24 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: The prices you have are not way out of line.Make a serious offer and see what happens. The piano business is extremely competitive. The Boston, currently made in Japan by Kawai for Steinway,is not a bad piano either.The prices on the Boston will be higher because of the association with Steinway.The piano is designed by Steinway and has some different features than the Kawai, although their sizes are similar. Both are very good piano's. You might take a look at the Kawai RX series also, if your considering a Boston. Good luck in your search.

Subject: Re: Yamaha C2/3 and Boston From: Andrew To: Jim K Date Posted: Tues, Nov 30, 1999 at 08:02:28 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Yes I agree that Kawai RX-PD.. series are quite serious pianos that worth your attention and consideration. Andrew G.

Subject: New Piano-Looking at a 5'3' Yamaha? From: Jonathan To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 04:36:51 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Hi, I know this has probably been asked over and over again, but I am new to this forum and could sure use some help. I really don't know much about pianos. My wife is a good casual pianist. She is not a professiona, nor does she perform outside the housel, but she has fun with it. She is Russian, and learned on a Petrof. We are building a new house, and we are putting an alcove suitable for a piano. However, after putting up 20% up-front money for the contruction, funds are not unlimited. My wife wants a piano both to play and also as furniture (reading previous posts, I know this last one is frowned upon). But that takes us out of the upright market. We looked at Yamaha, Young Chang, Boston, and a few others. The Yamaha, which she liked the feel, was a 5'3'. Reading the previous posts, I'm getting the feeling we are making a big mistake. I have three questions: 1. Is Yamaha an OK piano? I'm not reading here than anyone thinks much of them. 2. Is a 5'3' a complete waste of time? 3. Does one of those electronic players which plays the piano while you are eating dinner or whatever detract from the sound or perfomance of a piano in any way? We are in San Diego, and the places we visted were heavy on Steinway, Young Chang, and Yamaha. Any help will be appreciated. I'd hate to waste my money buying something with which we would not be happy. Thanks!

Subject: Re: New Piano-Looking at a 5'3' Yamaha? From: Bruce To: Jonathan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 09:46:08 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Jonathan:My first question to you would be; what size Petrof did your wife learn on? I had played uprights my whole life, now I have a 5ft3 piano and it suits my budget and space considerations. But if she is used to playing on a 6ft grand or more, she probably won't feel comfortable. You stated she likes the feel of the Yamaha. I can't blame her, I have one myself. But I have been playing them for many years, and it just fits my style of play. I have talked with many local piano techs and they always give Yamaha very high marks, so when I decided to finally buy a new grand, Yamaha was my logical choice. In answer to your 3 questions, I don't feel that the techs here dislike them, it's just that many of them have seen and played some German pianos along with other fine brands, and they have their preferences which everyone is entitled too. But Yamaha is recognized as one of the finests brand names in pianos without a doubt. As far as length, if you can afford the larger grands and have the size then go for it. But will the 5ft3 be a waste of time? Of course not. It all depends on the perspective your coming from. If you have played consoles all your life, and then have a 5ft3 to play, I believe you will be impressed. On the other side, playing 7ft grands then having to play the smaller grands, leaves one frustrated. In answer to your last question, Yamaha's player unit is built right into the piano at construction, so no it does not affect the performance of the piano. What you have heard is probably the Diskclavier. The other systems out there are 'after market' products and are put on the piano after it's initial construction. All in all do read Larry fines 'The Piano Book' and get as much info as you can, talk to local techs, other players. Also make sure you are comfortable with your dealer, in regards to warranty info, tunings, will the bench be included? And don't be afraid to haggle, have some fun with the experience, I know I did:-) Good luck stay in touch, and do read the posts on this sight, these folks here offer a wealth of info and I learn new things all the time. Regards Bruce:-)

Subject: Re: New Piano-Looking at a 5'3' Yamaha? From: Jonathan To: Bruce Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 13:00:05 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Thanks, Bruce. She learned on a Petrof upright. I 'accidently' took her by a piano store yesterday using a nearby store as an excuse and after listening to a public radio program about a piano player (the radio was a fotuitous coincidence.) She is not expecting a piano this Christmas, but said that when we do get one someday, she does not want an upright. She loved a $50k Steinway, but that is out of our budget, at least for this year. But the dealer did say he would give full credit on a trade up for up to 10 years (I have spoken to the dealer on numerous occasions before we 'just happened to drop by.' My wife did ask the dealer about Petrofs, but he dismissed them as 'plebian.' I wouldn't mind checking them out, but I can't find any around here. I had previously spoken with

Subject: Re: New Piano-Looking at a 5'3' Yamaha? From: Joy To: Jonathan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 20:24:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jonathan, Have you gone to the Piano and Organ Warehouse in San Marcos? Of all the piano stores I visited in San Diego county -- and I visited them ALL -- they were the classiest, very understated and honest in their sales approach, -- and most reasonable to work with -- and they didn't pull that fake 'I'll check the warehouse stock' phone call act two other dealers did on me when I went shopping for a piano. But I digress. I think you'll like their stock. They are the authorized dealership of Petrof, Charles Walter, Schimmel, and Yahama, so your wife can compare them all under one roof!!! The salespeople are very patient and knowledgeable. They use an excellent technician on the premises, too. I ALMOST bought a new piano there, until a wonderful used one came along through a private owner. They have a website: http://www.pianowhse.com. It'll nice to get it AFTER Christmas. You'll probably be able to work out a better deal. It was the Steinway salesperson who said the Petrof was 'pleibian', right? I wouldn't take that too seriously. I suppose that analogous to a Mercedes dealer calling the top-of-line-Honda Accord 'pleibian' -- 'tho most of us know the Accord is a good reliable car. I have a friend who is totally enraptured by her Petrof 6'1' grand -- after owning a Kawai for 15 years. She simply fell in love with their sound. Anyway, good luck!

Subject: Thanks! From: Jonathan To: Joy Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 21:41:24 (EST) Email Address: jonathan@jbiinc.com Message: Thanks for the tip, Joy. I'll drive up and check it out.

Subject: Re: New Piano-Looking at a 5'3' Yamaha? From: Joy To: Jonathan Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 20:06:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Postscript to my previous post: See if the P.O.W. has any Weinbach grands left. It's not a bad piano to consider for the price. Both my son AND his piano teacher liked the sound and feel of the one that was on their sales floor 3 months ago.

Subject: piano From: Jay Whelan To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 19:03:01 (EST) Email Address: jowhela@msn.com Message: I recently acquired a Anton Stelzhammer Piano dated 1884 serial # 4193. Has anyone ever heard of this manufacturer? Please let me know. Thank you.

Subject: square grand From: Ellen To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 11:42:36 (EST) Email Address: lelacey@hotmail.com Message: I need to know how much a square grand 1852 (A.H. Gale and Co.) piano is worth and is it worth restoring?

Subject: Re: square grand From: Granholm Bros To: Ellen Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 18:50:38 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I need to know how much a square grand 1852 (A.H. Gale and Co.) piano is worth and is it worth restoring? --- We can't give actual values for any piano without seeing it, but in general the following information is true with regard to square pianos: If it has a nice carved rosewood case, it may be worth something as a piece of antique furniture. As a functioning musical instrument its value is most likely zero compared to any modern piano. Squares were an inferior piano design compared to today's instruments. Restoration is possible, but very expensive. Whether or not this investment is worth it depends on many factors, sentimental value being one of the most important. We have restored some pianos of questionable quality that were nonetheless treasured by their owners because of historical family connections. That call is always up to the piano's owner. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Ellington Upright From: Charlie To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 13:47:14 (EST) Email Address: Hilliard@cswnet.com Message: Does anybody know the worth of a Ellington oak Upright piano or about when it was made?

Subject: Re: Ellington Upright From: KJ To: Charlie Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 18:30:35 (EST) Email Address: bestoil@aol.com Message: Does anybody know the worth of a Ellington oak Upright piano or about when it was made? --- Charlie, What a coincidence!! I am also looking for any information regarding Ellington uprights. The only information that I con offer you now is that I ws once told that if you look under the foot pedals with a Mirror and Flashlight you would be able to determine the manufacture date of the piano. When I tried this the left and right Foot pedals each had a 19. I surmised that this would date the piano to somewhere around 1919. I later found out that that date does not correspond to the family history that dates it back even longer. I would be interested to fing out what yours shows. Feel free to contact me directly by E-mail. Thanks KJ

Subject: Re: Ellington Upright From: Granholm Bros To: KJ Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 19:51:36 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: Does anybody know the worth of a Ellington oak Upright piano or about when it was made? --- Charlie, What a coincidence!! I am also looking for any information regarding Ellington uprights. The only information that I con offer you now is that I ws once told that if you look under the foot pedals with a Mirror and Flashlight you would be able to determine the manufacture date of the piano. When I tried this the left and right Foot pedals each had a 19. I surmised that this would date the piano to somewhere around 1919. I later found out that that date does not correspond to the family history that dates it back even longer. I would be interested to fing out what yours shows. Feel free to contact me directly by E-mail. Thanks KJ --- You can't tell the age of a piano by sticking a mirror under the pedals and reading what's under them. Locate the piano's serial number near the top of the plate by the tuning pins, usually in the open area between the tenor and bass sections. Then post the number here, or go to the 'How old is my piano' section of this website. Ellington pianos were made by Baldwin. There's no way you're going to get a reliable estimate of the piano's value over the internet. Call a local piano technician to come to your home for an inspection and appraisal of the piano. The tech can also give you the piano's manufacture date if you don't get it here. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Ellington Upright From: KJ To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 15:05:55 (EST) Email Address: bestoil@aol.com Message: I wasn't sure about how reliable that mirror test was. Thanks for setting me straight. The serial number 1382. It was manufactured in Cincinnati OH. Any info you could pass along would be appreciated. Just curious. Thanks KJ

Subject: HELP! Any1 knows about HOFMANN WIEN? From: UPS To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 29, 1999 at 10:30:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am interested in a brown baby grand piano labelled 'HOFMANN WIEN'. Does anyone know about this brand? History, quality, value, links... It is not the Hoffmann belonging to the Bechstein family (spelled with double f). The piano changed owner in the early 80's, so the piano should be from the 70's or earlier. BR/UPS

Subject: New piano From: Kerrie To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 03:18:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My husband and I are looking to purchase our first piano. I learned to play when I was young but have not had the chance to really play since I got married ten years ago. We have four children 8yrs-5mo and want them to learn as well. What would be a recommended piano? We have been looking at a variety of types (Steinway, Schulze-Pollman, Boston, Walter just to name a few)and realize this is a lifetime investment. If space and money are not a huge concern what would you recommend?

Subject: Re: New piano From: David Burton To: Kerrie Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 04:19:20 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Kerrie, If space is no issue how about money? If you have money enough to buy a grand and have the space for a nice sized one, 5'7' or larger, have you seen my page on this subject yet? http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/F991124.html That will give you some ideas. You mentioned Steinway, Schultze-Pollmann, Walter and Boston. There are others you should at least see if you can; Yamaha and Kawai if you like Asian pianos, Baldwin to compare against the Walter, others to compare with the Schulze-Pollmann although that's one of my favorites. You should probably see a Fandrich 185 if you live anywhere in or around Seattle. You should also try and find a Petrof to look at. Petrof might be an incredible piano with the right technical attention; tuning and sometimes voicing. Steinways are expensive but they're Steinways. Anyone who sees that you own one will at least hope that you have kept it up rather than let it get run down. Steinways require lots of tuning early on and need to be kept in a special place away from direct sunlight and especially away from heating ducts, radiators and air conditioning vents. All pianos deserve this but it's amazing what I've seen people do to mistreat their Steinways, it's atrocious! If you can afford one get one. They really are the best but I don't think they're the only piano game in town.

Subject: Re: New piano From: Kerrie To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 19:08:34 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: David, I actually was able to spend time reading and learning from your wonderful website after I sent this message. I also e-mailed you directly so there may be a little repeat there. Even though we have the space (looks aside) what questions do you ask to determine whether to purchase an upright or a grand? We can spend about 40K. Or we could spend less for our first piano and upgrade later. Your thoughts? Seattle is VERY near my hometown and I will try to find a dealer that carries the Fandrich. I was first leaning toward the Schulze-Pollman after hearing the quality of sound off their upright. I haven't heard the sound from the grand, however, I am told it is wonderful. Are the Yamaha's and Kawai's mass produced? The 16 X 24 room we will put our piano in has hardwood floors, two walls of windows, a fireplace and four floor heat vents. It sounds like the Steinway would not do well in this very open space.? The piano wouldn't get any direct sun and would have a fairly constant temperature and then I do have four children under 8. Any other thoughts as to the best piano match for our situation?

Subject: Re: New piano From: Mat D. To: Kerrie Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 23:40:18 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Kerrie, If you have $40k to spend, and I can see you have the space, check out the Steinways & then check out the Mason & Hamlin grands. In the Mason & Hamlin line you can afford the best piano they make (one of the best pianos made by anyone BTW) which is the model BB (7'). In the Steinway line you can afford a little less piano for that money, but you should look anyway. I would look at the Steinway B (more $ than you are spending--about $57K) for reference, then look at the Mason & Hamlin BB--I think you will see that the Mason & Hamlin is quite a wonderful instrument comparing favorably to the Steinway B. If you are serious and want to make this decision only once, the Mason & Hamlin is worth a look, but be sure to compare it to these other top pianos that are recomended because only then will you fully appreciate this incredible value. For more info & availability of Mason & Hamlin pianos you can e-mail Cecil Ramirez (National sales director--M&H) cecil@pianodisc.com BTW, I am not an agent of M&H. I am an owner of a M&H BB and love to share my good fortune and experience. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: New piano From: David Burton To: Kerrie Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 23:02:27 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Kerrie, I'm going to jump around a bit and hopefully answer all your questions. I think you should go have a look at that Fandrich grand in Seattle. Their model 185 6'1' grand is probably a piano they had made in Asia, but to their own scaling and other features that are their design, since they are also piano designers. I would give that one a good look over if I were you and that goes for any serious pianists in Seattle or even in Portland. They're at Fandrich & Sons Pianos 12515 Lake City Way N.E. Seattle, WA 98125 Phone Toll Free: 888.460.9198 Phone: 206.361.1221 Fax: 206.361.0232 E-mail: fandrich@oz.net Since Darrell Fandrich has just been named Technical Design Consultant for perhaps the largest piano factory in the world in China, I think his pianos deserve serious consideration. Now you asked a very important question, one that a lot of people are probably thinking about but perhaps don't know quite how to ask; I'm looking at uprights but at what point do I consider buying a grand? I think the answer to that question is how much money would you have to spend to get an acceptable grand; a grand piano that in tone and quality satisfies your criteria? I decided that since I would consider buying a Petrof III, that being the least expensive 'acceptable' grand piano for me, that if I couldn't afford at least one of those, then I'd just as well stick with an upright. And there are any number of at least good new upright pianos out there. I'm somewhat concerned about how some upright pianos do not have scaling appropriate to their size, but in any case a larger piano has that much more soundboard, etc. I surveyed acceptable uprights on my website and any one of those, particularly the ones I highlighted on the survey. In my own case using the model the break is in the $18K-$21K neighborhood; that means that I have to ask myself whether I'd prefer owning a Steinway K-52 an awesome but finicky piano or a Petrof III and even if I can't answer that there are any number of first rate uprights under that level including the Mason & Hamlin 50 which I might even prefer to the Petrof. I'd look at Yamaha uprights, stick to the U series and see if you find any difference between a U3 and a U5. If you can get a good deal on a U3 maybe that's your piano for your situation. Mass production; all the pianos you mentioned including Schulze-Pollmann have some mass production elements to them. The Japanese pianos are really mass produced unless you buy into one of the new Yamaha S series grands which are supposedly completely handmade. The Steinway is the most hand made of all of them and it is really the best when brought into itself by a great piano technician. Steinways frequently improve with age too, if they're not horribly mistreated as some I've seen have been, whereas the Asian pianos are made to sound and perform a certain way, forever, or until they break down, which ever comes first. This philosophy has tremendous virtues and has earned the Asian piano makers great respect all around the world, particularly so, the Japanese, and particularly so, Yamaha. So if I were considering spending good money on a grand, I'd include the Yamaha C3 in my list. It is a very nice piano.

Subject: Re: New piano From: ryan To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 23:45:44 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: If you can find one to play, I wouldn't overlook some of the German pianos. Sauter (again!) seems to come in at a pretty good price point in their 6' grands and 51' verticals. I played a 6' Sauter recently that had been completely regulated and voiced, and it was fantastic. I liked it better than the Steinway L. Not to knock the Steinway, because it's a fantastic piano. Sauter grands are made in limited production runs; I believe they made 200 grands last year and maybe 2000 verticals. I don't know how they can be the 'cheapest German piano', but they certainly aren't the least! The Mason & Hamlin A is also a very nice piano, but in my own preference list I would place it slightly below the Steinway. Another piano that I have spent a little time with is the Charles Walter grand. It's a very nice piano, at a nice price that makes it very attractive. It also has the advantage of an extra 4' at 6'4', and really takes advantage of this extra length. Of course if you want the very best, the Steingraeber and Bosendorfer 7' grands are the best I have played. Both have to be experienced to be appreciated, but their tone is breathtaking and their action is among the best I have played. I have played several Yamaha C3s, but could not fall in love. They seem to lack some sustain and don't quite have the full singing tone that I like in classical music, at least not the ones I've played. On the other hand, they are pretty fantastic for Jazz. Not least, if you decide to go the vertical route for now, the Sauter 130 is a supurb instrument. I recently compared one that I am purchasing to a couple of Steinway uprights (which I have always liked), and I really thought the Sauter outperformed the Steinways in terms of tone, action, and response. Your best bet is to dig up as many different pianos as you can and play them, or get somebody else to play them. You really have to experience them for yourself to know what you are really going to like. I can rave about Sauter or Walter or whatever, but when it comes down to taste we are all different.

Subject: Schimmel uprights 125 Vs 130 From: SK Hui To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 06:30:50 (EST) Email Address: gskhui@home.com Message: I am considering a new Schimmel upright. I like the deep and more balance tone of the 130T. But the saleman keep steering me to a 125 DP. He said it's a very special piano with 'DUPLEX' scale, etc etc. I found the 125 has nice and lively middle tones but the bass is weak. Anyone can offer an opinion? Schimmel web site doesn't offer much info.

Subject: Re: Schimmel uprights 125 Vs 130 From: ryan To: SK Hui Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 22:08:31 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: If I am not mistaken, I believe the DP model is Schimmel's 'Diamond' series. According to Larry Fine, the Diamond series mostly differs in the cosmetics and not so much in the actual workings of the piano. You might check out The Piano Book to double check this. It seems like it would be hard to get the 125DP just on the salesman's recommendation if you actually like the 130T better. How it plays and sounds to you is the most important factor. Even if the DP was different, the main purpose of 'duplex scale' and other design factors are to give the piano a certain sound and response. They don't necessarily make one piano better than another. So if you don't like the way the piano sounds or responds with a certain 'feature', you certainly don't have to buy it. Did that make sense? Ryan

Subject: anybody know about H.P. Nelson pianos?? From: nelson To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 19:24:22 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I recently bought this type of piano and cannot find any information about it.have you heard of them? nelson

Subject: Kimball upright From: Kelly Kinzey To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 14:33:26 (EST) Email Address: kekker@hotmail.com Message: I was wondering if you could tell me where I can look to fine the history of a piano I just inherited. It is a Kimball upright and there is an inscription on the inside that says it was 'patented Sept. 24, 1895' It's No is 146398. Thank you very much for your help. N/A

Subject: Age of my Piano From: Greg de Freitas To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 18:06:44 (EST) Email Address: gregd@ancc.com.au Message: I am trying to find out the age of my piano. The book we looked it up in did not cover it's serial number. If we calculate backwards it would suggest the piano was manufactured in about1890. This does not make sense as the style suggests it is not that old. The serial number is 16900. It is a Gors and Kallmann. The book started with a serial number of 40000 in 1908. Can anyone help? Thanks, Greg.

Subject: Re: Age of my Piano From: Mike P. To: Greg de Freitas Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 14:03:23 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: There is a separate section on the main page called 'How old is my piano' where they will research the age of your piano for $3.

Subject: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: Jim DiCaudo To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 21:13:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: For an adult beginner's first piano, I've narrowed my brand choice to Kawai verticals, as they seem to offer the best blend of high quality/resale, medium key action, reasonable price, and a tone that's less bright than Yamaha. I realize you can't appraise used instruments over the Internet, but I would like opinions from those knowledgeable about this manufacturer. Here are some local choices: 1) New Kawai consoles: CX5 for $3500 (polished ebony); 505T for $3750 (mahogony). Should I assume the innards are identical, and the only difference is in the furniture design on the 505? Also had UST-8's for $4400, a little above my price target. 2) An older Kawai continental style console (serial #K583331, said to be from 1972-3) with keys and hammers in immaculate condition (better than most 1-yr old instruments!) and slight nicks in the walnut finish. It just came in, wasn't yet tuned, and they thought $2200 would be the price. Seems a bit high for a nearly 30-yr old instrument, but it was in unbelievable playing condition. 3) A 10-yr old 802-1 (or perhaps 802-I)console with a grand-style lid, said to be immaculate (will see it tomorrow) for $2500. Also had a professional 48' BL-12 from 1976 for $4000. Assuming all the above were in primo condition, can someone give me the pros and cons of Kawai's manufacturing or tonal qualities for new vs. 10-yr vs. 30-yr old instruments? I understand Kawais constant model # changes can be a bit confusing. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: David Burton To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 21:46:30 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Your CX-5 is about $1,000 off new maybe. The 505T is too short, forget it. You don't want to go smaller than the CX-5. The UST 8 is the best of the lot and if you like it you should bargain to get it. It's priced about $600 off new already. Can't tell you anything about the continental, but yes they can play well even that old, but if it's 46' tall or more, buy it at that price if you like it. I like Kawai's workmanship, and they seem to hold up as well as Yamaha over the long haul. They've both gotten better over the years. But these are still by the rest of the world's standards, 'industrial pianos'. They are cranked out to sound a certain way and you really have to prefer that sound to that of other more mellow toned instruments. The Japanese piano is made to a standard and there is very little difference form one to another, especially at the level of the mass produced upright piano, which these are. There are places I have been, rooms full of black ebony Japanese pianos, both Kawai and Yamaha. It's like being in the presence of some finely tuned army. I played one after another down a row, maybe seven or eight pianos. They were all the same. Amazing! And most amazingly they were all pretty much in tune too!

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: Kelly Schutz To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 19:13:06 (EST) Email Address: kellyschutz@prodigy.net Message: Jim where did you get the quote for the 505 model. I was looking at one of those today and was quoted $4100 (and that was 'supposed' to be a great sale. I'm interested to know what the going prices are for the Kawai 503 & 505

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: David Burton To: Kelly Schutz Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 21:51:48 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: TheCX-5 in Oak is a better piano for the same money. Why bother with the 505's. Too short.

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: Jim D. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 08:24:07 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: TheCX-5 in Oak is a better piano for the same money. Why bother with the 505's. Too short. --- Thanks, David. Actually, the CX-5H has a smaller scaling (41'), but it is placed into a 45' cabinet (I assume to fool people into thinking they have a 'studio' piano, or to allow those with spinet/console budgets to make the world think they have a studio). The 505 is 43' (I assume the scaling follows), so it's actually 'taller' where it counts. The CX-5H has tone ports which may account for it's big sound (compared favorably with the 505 in the store). To confuse matters further (thanks, Kawai), the model 504 (which is harder to find) is a furniture-styled CX-5, with the same 41' scaling. You'll have to decide if differences in sound, appearance, soundness of construction are worth any price differences. Good luck.

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: Jim D. To: Kelly Schutz Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 21:17:42 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jim where did you get the quote for the 505 model. I was looking at one of those today and was quoted $4100 (and that was 'supposed' to be a great sale. I'm interested to know what the going prices are for the Kawai 503 & 505 --- It was at Sumwalt's, in a southwest suburb of Cleveland. I thought the 503's had been discontinued, but 504's exist, at about $500 cheaper in list price than the 505's. I ended up going with a used Kawai 802 from another store which, after delivery, had a key action that was quite noisy and stiff in most of the low-to-middle octaves (the noise was after striking, as the hammer returns). I don't recall any problem when I tested it in the store. I have the store's technician coming to check it on Monday. They said they'd cover the extra work (normally only the first tuning is free). I also noticed an odd, ringing dissonance when a G-major chord is struck and held, as the notes decay. Also found a sluggish key in an upper octave. Thankfully, they have a 6-month satisfaction agreement which allows a trade for any similarly-priced instrument (I paid $2,500), plus lifetime full equity on a trade-up to a better instrument. Hopefully, the problems can be corrected without extensive work, which I doubt they'd cover.

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: David Burton To: Jim D. Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 21:56:24 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: For the money you spent you should expect that initial inharmonicities would be cleared up by the store. However, this is a piano that will probably require the extra attention of a skilled piano technician who can get that 802 up to spec and keep it there. I think a damp chaser system might also be a good idea.

Subject: Re: Kawai's - New vs. Used From: Jim DiCaudo To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 21:53:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Correction, the 802-I was from circa 1980, in absolutely mint condition - the hammers barely had grooves. Also, revisited the other used Kawai, which had great bass (better than the new CX-5's). So, we're talking a 20-yr-old Kawai console with legs and a grand-style lid versus a 27-yr-old continental with personality (but with a few nicks and a surface marred somewhat by frequent Lemon Pledge use), both for $2500 delivered, one tuning, both in unbelievable mint playing condition. The decision will be tough ...

Subject: Wurlitzer piano From: Amy Harris To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 11:30:39 (EST) Email Address: lotsaspotts@blairpc.com Message: I am thinking of purchasing a wurlitzer piano that is about 20 yrs old. Not used very much basically a piece of furniture. Can anyone give me any information?

Subject: Re: Wurlitzer piano From: David Burton To: Amy Harris Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 04:53:27 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I am thinking of purchasing a wurlitzer piano that is about 20 yrs old. Not used very much basically a piece of furniture. Can anyone give me any information? --- I wouldn't if I were you.

Subject: Baby Grand as a Surprise From: Harry C. To: All Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:33:38 (EDT) Email Address: cardile@ibm.net Message: Thanks for the posts in the other threads - they've provided plenty of insight, but I still need to ask some specific questions. I've just started looking for a baby grand for my wife as a big surprise. She hasn't played in years, but she's longed for a baby grand for at least the ten years I've known her. So here are the particulars and questions: 1. prefer to stay in the $10,000 range; a baby grand is the target since that's been her dream 2. our formal 11'x16' living room will become a piano room a. any preference on wood floors vs. carpeting for sound quality? 3. player feature: a. effective as a teaching tool for the beginner (me) and/or the more experienced? b. preference in make/model? 4. what are the differences in purchasing new vs. used vs. refurbished, in terms of: a. price? b. size? c. preferred manufacturers? d. retaining value? e. maintenance? f. installation of player feature? 5. I've heard mixed reviews on the Korean and Chinese manufacturers - any significant differences for our needs? Lots of questions, but what recommendations would you make? Thanks, Harry C.

Subject: Re: Baby Grand as a Surprise From: David Burton To: Harry C. Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:09:22 (EDT) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: OK Harry, We understand the term 'baby grand' to refer to a grand piano less than or equal to five feet three inches in length from the keyboard straight back to the end of the curve of the piano. The next sizes up are either called 'parlor grands' or 'standard grands'. The so called 'professional grands are anything longer than six feet. My comments refer to the definition of 'baby grand' and are subject to change as the piano gets larger. '1. prefer to stay in the $10,000 range; a baby grand is the target since that's been her dream.' Right, well you can probably negotiate something close to that if you're careful. '2. our formal 11'x16' living room will become a piano room a. any preference on wood floors vs. carpeting for sound quality?' My preference is for hard floors, wood is good with area rugs, not wall to wall carpeting. The wall to wall carpeting does dampen the sound all right, it also tends to dampen the soundboard and other wooden parts of the piano more quickly by creating a micro-climate under the piano. This is least of a problem in the dry southwest. '3. player feature: a. effective as a teaching tool for the beginner (me) and/or the more experienced?' Not really sold on it for that. Some are. More for entertainment than anything else. 'b. preference in make/model?' Of the player feature? Go with pianodisk and have an authorized pianodisk dealer install it. '4. what are the differences in purchasing new vs. used vs. refurbished, in terms of: a. price?' If you're really going for a true baby grand you are probably better off buying a new one. 'b. size?' If you're really going to buy a grand piano that's a true 'baby grand' there isn't much difference, but I guess longer is still better, try to get a 5'2' at least. 'c. preferred manufacturers?' Petrof, Baldwin and its sub brands, Chickering and Wurlitzer. My preferences would be in that order. After that, Steck and last Knabe. 'd. retaining value?' Forget about retaining value in a grand piano that small. If you are concerned about retaining value you have to think about spending a lot more than $10K on a much larger piano and the best deals are in the used or better rebuilt markets. 'e. maintenance?' Same as any piano; at least two tunings a year, three or four the first year. IF YOU KEEP YOUR PIANO IN TUNE IT WILL GET PLAYED MUCH MORE OFTEN and that's still the point in owning any piano. 'f. installation of player feature?' Covered above. '5. I've heard mixed reviews on the Korean and Chinese manufacturers - any significant differences for our needs?' Yeah I don't like em much. But Yamaha or Kawai are fine for baby grands. Young Chang out of Korea sells a lot but my reputable sources turn thumbs down on them. 'Lots of questions, but what recommendations would you make?' Don't buy a baby grand. Buy a bigger grand, at least 5'7' in length it will do everything better including hold its value. The best deals are in the used or rebuilt markets. This requires the help of a good tech if you don't know what you're looking for. The best buy in a new piano of this size would be among the Baldwins or Petrofs depending on availability and preference. Have heard good things aboutCharles Walter too but never played one. Best of luck, your wife is lucky too no matter what you are able to find for her.

Subject: Re: Baby Grand as a Surprise From: Harry C. To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 01:09:29 (EST) Email Address: harry.cardile@ctg.com Message: Thanks for David's thoughtful reply. In considering his recommendations, I have been busy looking on the used and rebuilt market for possible buys in the 5'8" to 6' range. Though I've loved some of the rebuilt Steinways O's that I've seen, that price range is out of bounds. I've recently come across a 1911 Mason and Hamlin 5'8" that was rebuilt by a well-known rebuilder in Atlanta some 16 years ago. Though I haven't looked at it personally yet or had a tech evaluate it, I'd like to get a sense as to worth if it's "right". The asking price is $12K. Your thoughts on that make/year and its worth? Thanks, Harry

Subject: Re: Baby Grand as a Surprise From: David Burton To: Harry C. Date Posted: Sun, Nov 28, 1999 at 04:25:45 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 1911 Mason & Hamlin is certainly 'classic' vintage territory. That's not a bad price for it either if the pinblock has been replaced. I'd expect to see a piano that looked, felt and sounded like a 16 year old piano, not a 90 year old piano. It sounds like an M & H model A. If so that's a very nice piano. Sure some Steinway O's out there are outstanding and yes they probably are worth the money in most cases.

Subject: Very Weird From: BEN To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 13, 1999 at 05:54:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I found out some thing weird when i went to a piano store.. i tried out a 'WEINBERG' 6'1 grand and compared it with a 'KAWAI RX-1' 5'5 grand and discovered that the kawai sounded much more powerful in the bass and had a much nicer tone and sound then the weinberg which was longer than the kawai by 6 inches!!!By the way,, the weinberg is made in S.KOREA.. aNYONE has experienced this b'fore??

Subject: The lesson: Don't judge a book by it's cover! From: Mat D. To: BEN Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 23:35:33 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: This is not at all suprising. There are so many variables--scale, voicing, quality of brand. Another thing to consider is the relative levels of bass vs. treble. Even between (2) very good brands--say Schimmel and Mason & Hamlin--booth very good pianos, the M&H 5'8' has a very big, warm low end, where the Schimmel has a thinner sounding bass (not smaller sounding, but thinner). IMO the Bosendorfer has (in general from my experience) a very bright sound, but the bass, although bright, is very BIG sounding--the bass notes on a big piano have a certain 'metalic' sound to them when you strike the key hard--this gives it that deep (not neccesarily full) sound. Too many variables to judge from a verbal description--you need to hear it & feel it. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Very Weird From: David Burton To: BEN Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 21:28:10 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Theories about what I'm going to describe differ, but basically the 6' piano you describe has suffered a premature death somewhere. My guess is that the soundboard is without crown or that the string to bridge contact is defective, sloppy or both. The design of the bridge itself can sometimes affect the way sound is transmitted around a piano. You know there's just no lying about some things; inferior quality sounds it in any size. I bet that 6' grand was full of inharmonicities, those little irritating muffled sounds that seem to cloud over a clear tone. I've played concert grands that were dead. I'm sure that the Kawai was quite alive and fine, I know them. Kawai is probably one of the best bets in the low end piano market. The RX-3 is a great piano if you like the Asian sound. Their baby grand, while not a piano I would be interested in buying, is nevertheless for the right person a nicely made piano. At this size and price range I'd think you should also check out the Yamaha which I'd probably prefer over the Kawai.

Subject: Re: Very Weird From: Charlie To: BEN Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 18:09:14 (EST) Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com Message: Ben, What Sam described is very real and true. Size does, of course, matter when it comes to the sound of a piano, but though a major component, other things matter just as much. The sound you describe does not surprise me at all, considering the two brands you are comparing. Compare a 6' Kawai against the same size Weinberg (give or take a couple of inches) and you will likely be astounded.

Subject: Re: Very Weird From: SAM LEWIS PIANO To: BEN Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 04:26:54 (EST) Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com Message: Hey Ben- what you heard was very real; I am not familiar with the Weinberg, but am very familiar with Kawai. What you heard has to do with scale design and a high qua;ity manufacturer. Plus simply the difference in pianos. That's why you shouldn't buy a piano without playing it: even 2 of the same kind can sound different.......Sam

Subject: Re: Very Weird From: Ben To: SAM LEWIS PIANO Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 09:40:41 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: As a matter of fact,,6' grands ARE supposed to be far more superior than a 5'5 baby grand,,in terms of sound and tonal quality ,shouldn't they??the 6' grand has strings that is a full 5 inches longer than the baby grand,,so i should not see why the 5'5 was bettter than the 6..Yes, maybe kawai pianos are on a higher quality scale than a Weinberg which is made in Korea,,but the quality should not affect the sound..at the most,, a lousy quality grand has a more inferior action , cabinet , etc..than a 5'5, but the SOUND should have been better!!

Subject: Re: Very Weird From: ryan To: Ben Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 20:33:03 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: This is not necessarily true. There are a lot of things that effect sound quality. The materials that are used in the soundboard, bridge, and rim can really make a piano sound good or bad. Some pianos have rims that absorb certain frequencies which can make the piano sound tinny, hollow, or plastic. Poorly constructed rims can contribute harmonics to notes that make notes sound harsh, or make notes not blend well. Cheap hammers or hammers that are mis-allined to the strings will not strike true and will cause the piano to sound muffled or purcussive, and can effect sustain. Poorly designed scales will cause there to be weak registers or rough transitions between registers. Improper down-pressure of the strings on the bridge, loose bridge-pins, or dead soundboards will also kill the sound. Soundboards in bad designs or made out of poor materials have a reputation for dying early. I think I thought of everything. Some or all of these factors will appear in cheap pianos. You really get what you pay for. People who think that you can get a great piano for cheap are fooling themselves; poor materials and poor construction will get you sooner or later, and then you will be stuck with a useless piano that's also worthless. Ryan

Subject: Henry Miller Piano From: Lisa To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 18:21:52 (EST) Email Address: bergeron4@aol.com Message: Hello, I've been looking for a used spinet or console piano for my children to learn on. I just came across a Henry Miller Piano but I have not been able to find any information regarding this brand. I beleive it is 17 years old and being offered for $850 and has had minimal use. I don't know where to begin to know if this is a reasonable price. Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks - Lisa

Subject: Re: Henry Miller Piano From: David Burton To: Lisa Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 22:04:41 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: If any of the pianos you're lookingat are under 46' you should forget about them unless they have full sized single blow actions.

Subject: Bornhardt upright grand From: Paula Brown To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 13:47:15 (EST) Email Address: paulajo@ev1.net Message: Has anyone ever heard of a Bornhardt? A friend purchased an upright iron grand. We don't know how old it is or have ever heard of the make. Supposedly, it's from London.

Subject: Wurlitzer piano From: Amy Harris To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 11:28:11 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message:

Subject: advice needed about Kimball Piano From: Lyli To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 22:47:25 (EST) Email Address: Lyli@ucdavis.edu Message: We are looking for a piano for my daughter. Just saw one (Kimball, model# 4437) asking for $900. sounds good and looks good too. We are quite ignorant about piano. Is this worth to buy. Give me your thoughts if you can help. Appriciated very much. Lyli

Subject: Re: advice needed about Kimball Piano From: SAM LEWIS PIANO To: Lyli Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 04:41:37 (EST) Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com Message: cant help you with specifics, but generally speaking, if you dont have the knowledge to evaluate it yourself, call a tuner to do so. It's worth the money, especially if he uncovers a serious problem. I often tell my clients that even a free piano may be too expensive to accept. You probably wouldnt buy a car without having it checked out. A piano in need of extensive (and sometimes not obvious) repair can be very costly too. Don't know a tuner? Ask at your local college or call some teachers. Good Luck....Sam

Subject: need advice From: cabrina To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 00:59:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, I have recently acquired a JC Truelson upright piano for free. It seems very old and the wood cabinet is in very poor condition. My question is how much should I expect to pay to have it tuned and possibly refinished and is it worth it? Any info would be greatly appreciated...Thanks

Subject: Re: need advice From: David Burton To: cabrina Date Posted: Sat, Nov 27, 1999 at 01:42:06 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: 'Hello, I have recently acquired a JC Truelson upright piano for free. It seems very old and the wood cabinet is in very poor condition. My question is how much should I expect to pay to have it tuned and possibly refinished and is it worth it? Any info would be greatly appreciated...Thanks' Well Cabrina, an old piano for free may or may not be worth it. Larry Fine seems to imply that a gift piano is probably worthless. Nevertheless a technician may determine that the case can be a wreck and the piano can basically, miraculously remain functional enough to give some service. My guess is that by this time basic tuning stability will probably be a problem. That means in plain English that the pinblock is shot. That's sort of the equivalent of having a cracked engine block or worse on a car. You'd probably consider it totalled. Many of these old pianos are by this time going the way of firewood with bailing wire. Their plates out to be melted down to make new plates. JC Truelson means nothing either. Besides, LOL, it's probably really a J. G. Truelsone out of New York City. You most probably can do a lot better than this.

Subject: Gray Market Yamahas From: Michael To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 08:12:16 (EST) Email Address: mkvrnr@aol.com Message: I'm in the market for a piano for my home. I've been looking at Yamaha uprights and have learned that some are sold to the North American market and others are 'gray market' instruments imported from Japan and to one extent or another cleaned, adjusted and repaired (usually just cosmetic) prior to sale. I have heard the 'seasoned for market' argument. Is there really any REAL effect to this? I am told pianos for the Japanese market have a higher moisture level left in the wood as compared to those made for the North American market? After all, average humidities vary wildly from Arizona to Louisianna. Is the hardware within the instrument simply unavailable in this country? If anyone has the 'low down' or an educated opinion, I'd be very interested in learning more...

Subject: Re: Gray Market Yamahas From: Bruce To: Michael Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 22:23:03 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Michael: With these pianos it's 'Buyer Beware' for sure. These well-used imported pianos were made for use in Japan...a much more humid enviroment than the average American home. As a result these pianos may develop serious problems such as loose tuning pins, cracked sound boards and bridges. Also action problems as warping, misalignment of parts, glue joint failures, sluggish response, and keys that stick. Since Yamaha makes different models for different markets, many models made for Japan are not sold in the states, therefore getting parts for these pianos here in the states is very difficult. So while one can get these used pianos at a very good price....your really taking a gamble from what I have been able to determine. Of course another aspect of why our market is getting glutted with these used pianos from Japan....is that their custom frowns upon buying a used piano...so when these pianos have seen their best days....they need a market....oh well if you do buy one, I wish you good luck. Bruce PS..here is the Yamaha parts number and service if you want additional info 1-800-854-1569, about a year and a half ago..I almost bought one of these used pianos from an importer from Georgia...but started doing some research and shyed away....bought a new C1 and am very satisfied, and having a full Yamaha warranty helps as well, again Good Luck Bruce:-)

Subject: Starck piano From: Steve Shafer To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 22:00:36 (EST) Email Address: shafersa@mindspring.com Message: In about 1985, my wife purchased a P.A. Starck piano, restored by a Mr. Cappelli in Chicago. The piano is a 5-foot baby grand, dark cherry or mahogany finish. It has six unusual fluted legs, all straight and quite thin and absolutely vertical, in three pairs. On a metal bar inside (I don't know what the piece is called), the following is actually forged into the bar: 'New and improved capo d'astro bar'. We cannot find any serial number anywhere. Does anyone know anything about this instrument and the P. A. Starck manufacturer?

Subject: piano bench height From: janet chaudhry To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 12, 1999 at 13:23:16 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I think the piano bench I have is too short for my piano. The keys are 31 inches high, and the bench is 19 inches high. Certainly my kids have to sit up on a cushion or something, but perhaps even the adults. What are the typical guidelines?

Subject: Re: piano bench height From: rajuncajun To: janet chaudhry Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 20:46:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My piano keys are at 29 1/2 andI have two benches and both benches I have are at 20 1/2.

Subject: Re: piano bench height From: Cork To: janet chaudhry Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:11:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: When sitting properly, finger on the keys, the pianist's forearms should be flat or slightly sloping down to the hands. Adjusting with pads/pillows/telephone books is appropriate.

Subject: Re: piano bench height From: Andrew G. To: janet chaudhry Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 14:54:16 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Your bench is the standard height of the non-adjustables. You are fine. It's common practice and nothing wrong with it to have children using 'boosters' or cushions. My daughter also uses these. You might want to consider having your children using Pedal Extender. This is a booster for their young and short legs. Andrew

Subject: Player Piano Price From: Roland To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 14:11:54 (EST) Email Address: jroland@pkns.com Message: I found someone who is selling their player piano. Before I start negotiations, I wanted to know if this piano is priced reasonably and if it a good model to buy. It is a Aeolian 'Sting II' model player, oak w/ stained glass, piano bench and 60 piano rolls. She said it is in great condition and is asking $1750. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Re: Player Piano Price From: RAJUNCAJUN To: Roland Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 20:41:22 (EST) Email Address: SCHLEGEL@INFOCOM.COM Message: Have you seen it yet? What year is it? Is it the original cabinet and guts or has it been refurbished? Does it play? Don't worry about tuning, you'll have to do that anyway, I paid about $100 for that. 60 rolls--I've paid anywhere from $1 to $14 a roll depending on condition. New ones cost the higher side and do not sound as good as older ones. Rolls probably worth $180 average. I purchased mine in Colorado in 1991 for $1,100 at an auction (no rolls). The rolls sold separately and I purchased them for $350 for 250 rolls back then. Since I have picked up rolls all over while traveling--used ones average $4; I got luck and purchased 160 at $1.00 each of which I picked up some really nice antique ones. Back to the player, mine is now valued at over $9,000. You want to find one in good shape that works, it is quite expensive to get repaired unless you do some of the work yourself. These mechanical wonders having unbelievable moving parts and I am always amazed at how they play. I do not think the price is out-of-line at all...you're lucky if you can find an old one that is in original shape and plays. Good luck, let me know when you get one and you enjoy it!

Subject: Re: Player Piano Price From: Granholm Bros To: Roland Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:29:12 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: I found someone who is selling their player piano. Before I start negotiations, I wanted to know if this piano is priced reasonably and if it a good model to buy. It is a Aeolian 'Sting II' model player, oak w/ stained glass, piano bench and 60 piano rolls. She said it is in great condition and is asking $1750. Any input would be greatly appreciated. --- These little players work well enough if they've been cared for properly. You should know, however, that you'll pay big bucks if you ever need repair or regulation work done on this piano. I just worked on one of these 'Sting II' machines, and correction of some minor action problems, a routine job taking less than two hours on a standard upright piano, became a major task on the Aeolian. On this piano the valves and pneumatics are located under the keybed, and they are tubed through to the tracker bar, which is located above the keybed. To get the piano's stack and action out, all the tubing had to be disconnected and then reconnected again, a job which took hours. I passed the considerable cost on to the customer. Any player will cost extra for piano-related repairs, but this model is especially notorious. Expect also to pay more to have the piano tuned, because many techs will charge you extra for the time it takes them to move the air motor and mandolin rail out of the way and put them back when the tuning's done. Any reliable advice on the piano's condition and value would have to come from a local piano technician. I strongly advise you to hire one to check the piano over, and listen carefully to his/her advice before purchasing. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Chesterfield From: Kelly To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 18:34:22 (EST) Email Address: Kellythepict@worldnet.att.net Message: I am interested in finding out the history of a Chesterfield piano I own. Thanks in advance.

Subject: Harps From: Roxanne To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 09:01:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, I know this a sight for pianos and pianists only, but I am curious to know more about harps. I always wanted to learn how to play the haarp, but had no clue where to start looking, how much it would cost and how big it is! I only know that it will expensive. Thank you.

Subject: Mozart's Piano From: Chantel To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 16:21:27 (EST) Email Address: ccarre@ameritech.net Message: I recently took my young son to a concert at the Detroit Orchestra Hall called Mozart In Vienna. It was a young peoples concert to interest children in music. With all the mix and mayhem of all the children around us I couldn't understand the speaker. They had a young woman play Piano Concerto in D major, but she was not playing on a regular piano. They stated it was the type of piano used in Mozart's time. My question is do you know the type of smaller piano it was? I really enjoyed it's sound. And are these pianos available for purchase or are they a thing of the past? Thank You for any information. C Carre

Subject: Re: Mozart's Piano From: David Burton To: Chantel Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 02:13:23 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Here's a very good description of what you are describing. http://www.music.sjsu.edu/Beethoven/Description/fortepiano.html Maybe you'll be able to see the keyboard and confirm that this instrument, and most of them I assure you, had a keyboard compass of exactly 5 octaves from FFF to f'''. This is enough for all the keyboard music written before about the 1790's.; all of Bach, Haydn, Mozart and most early Beethoven. They are like harpsichords in terms of their power; they're lightweights barely capable of much volume over an orchestra. They have very light actions which are very fast and give you more control within a vastly more limited range of dynamics. The modern grand piano is like an orchestra compared to it. Nevertheless you can learn a lot from playing one of these. I have not yet investigated the availability of these. When I do, I'll report it on my website under THE PIANO.

Subject: baby grand From: Urban To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 00:47:53 (EST) Email Address: Urban7777@aol.com Message: I recently purchased a baby grand piano with the manufacturer name of j.Burger, I have not been able to find complete information on the name. Found what might be Jacobi.Burger manufacturer, no # yet, I am still working on that. Any help would be appreciated. thank you, Urban

Subject: baby grand From: Urban To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 26, 1999 at 00:47:50 (EST) Email Address: Urban7777@aol.com Message: I recently purchased a baby grand piano with the manufacturer name of j.Burger, I have not been able to find complete information on the name. Found what might be Jacobi.Burger manufacturer, no # yet, I am still working on that. Any help would be appreciated. thank you, Urban

Subject: Petrof 52' vertical From: John To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 16:41:03 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can anyone tell me what a reasonable price is for a new 52' Petrof vertical with Renner action. I haven't been able to find Larry Fine's 1999-2000 annual supplement. Thank you.

Subject: Re: Petrof 52' vertical From: David Burton To: John Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 25, 1999 at 08:14:11 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: For the Petrof 131? Around $9,400. Negotiable.

Subject: Re: Petrof 52' vertical From: DSSR To: John Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 09:13:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I did a lot of shopping prior to my recent Weinbach purchase and my wife and I saw the 52' Petrof for around $7500 by a reputable dealer in Philly. IMHO I beleive it to be a great value, sound and price.

Subject: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Jim K. To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 00:11:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am searching for a first piano for my whole family. I have checked out used and new. Most of the used need much work or they cost +$1500. I decided to go for a new one. I hope someone can break my stall so I can buy and start playing. We have been using a Yamaha PSR300 keyboard for years and want to get a REAL instrument. After visiting a few area shops and comparing prices and quality this is what I came up with, the Samick is priced around $2500 and the Kawaiis priced at $2695. Both seem to be well made. The big difference is the Samick uses wooden 'elbows' that are connected to the 'key rods' while the Kawai uses plastic. Is there some reason I should choose the Samick over the Kawai or the Kawai over the Samick? PLease help me. Guitars I know, pianos are a new direction.

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Giselle To: Jim K. Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 06:50:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am searching for a first piano for my whole family. I have checked out used and new. Most of the used need much work or they cost +$1500. I decided to go for a new one. I hope someone can break my stall so I can buy and start playing. We have been using a Yamaha PSR300 keyboard for years and want to get a REAL instrument. After visiting a few area shops and comparing prices and quality this is what I came up with, the Samick is priced around $2500 and the Kawaiis priced at $2695. Both seem to be well made. The big difference is the Samick uses wooden 'elbows' that are connected to the 'key rods' while the Kawai uses plastic. Is there some reason I should choose the Samick over the Kawai or the Kawai over the Samick? PLease help me. Guitars I know, pianos are a new direction. --- to be truthful, i am no expert on the subject. However, only today I asked by piano teacher which piano manufacturer was best, as only recently my own family aquired a new piano. Her responce was that the Steinways were the 'rolls royce' of pianos. However, in the affordable range she recommended either the Kawai or Yamaha.

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Andrew To: Giselle Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 07:36:07 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: I think Steinways are more like 'Cadillacs' while Fazioli or Bosendorfer are 'Rolls Royces'. Andrew

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Jim K. To: Jim K. Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 22:50:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Well it seems that the Samick is off my shopping list. Now I must check out the Yamaha's also. Thanks for the info. I have tried a few different types and manufacturers over the past week. One piano really stands out against the others, the Steinway. If I had the money that would be my choice. Even though I don't play very well I sat down and played a bit. The action and sound were what a piano should be. I do know now what to feel for when I play. But for now I'll have to settle for a Jap piano. Thanks again for your input! Jim

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Chip S. To: Jim K. Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 20:43:09 (EST) Email Address: syech@pb.com Message: I am looking for piano right now, I heard some people said the sound of Yamaha piano is too 'mechanical' and it is difficult to show your 'emotion'. I would like to hear about your opinion! Thank your very much for your information.

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Andrew To: Jim K. Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 09:33:42 (EST) Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: May I surmarize it in a few words. Buying Yamaha or Kawai is like buying Toyota or Honda. You know you are getting very reliable products. Buying Samick is like buying a Daewood car. Hopefully you can figure that out. Chow! Andrew

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Ben To: Andrew Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 06:21:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Daewoo??? Why not a hyundai!! (lame joke)

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Tom To: Jim K. Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 16:07:24 (EST) Email Address: t.m.awessel@freeler.nl Message: Hello Jim, If you did`nt buy a Japanese piano yet in stead of a Korean one, I will give you some reasons why you should. Yamaha was established in 1887 and Kawai in 1927, while the Korean piano`s are only for just a few decades on the market We have been able to judge the quality and durability of Japanese piano`s over a long period of time an they have proven themselves to be excellent. In a home, under normal conditions Japanese piano`s stay in a perfekt condition for many,many years.They only need some adjustment in the regulation every 10 or 15 years and you do not have to be afraid of expensive repairs for at least 40 years. But if you are lucky, you have a piano for a lifetime without any major repairs. Korean piano`s which are imitations of Japanese piano`s still have to prove that they can match that. I have never tuned a relatively young Japanese piano ( say 20-30 years old ) with one or more loose tuning pins, neither have I been confronted with a piano that was practically untunable because of too tight pins. From the few Samicks compared to the Japanese piano`s that I have tuned, at least 30% had those problems and they were 6-10 years old. Once when I was trying to tune a Samick, the pins were so tight that the whole piano moved while I was trying to get the pins in th right position. I`m very curious how durable Korean piano`s prove to be, the coming decades, I have my doubts. What I know about Japanese piano`s is: The chosen materials are of very high quality ( felt,leather strings, wooden parts etc. ) There are things about the quality of a piano you have to await, but there are also things you can hear (strings/ soundboard) feel (action) or see (soundboard and the quality of other wooden parts) It would cost me quite at lot of lines more to get into specific details but believe me : I hear, feel and see that Japanese piano`s are at least 2-3 classes better and that they belong to the sub-top right under Steinway, Bechstein etc. Make your choice Jim, greetings Tom. P.S. I have nothing to do financially or otherwise with the Japanese pianoindustry I merely tune and/or repair their piano`s in Europe (Holland)

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Cork To: Jim K. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:08:32 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Kawai is generally on a higher quality plane than Samick. The 'plastic' to which you refer will outlive both you and the equivalent wood in the Samick. Get Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', research like crazy and play a ton of pianos. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai, which to buy? From: Tom To: Cork Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 03:12:25 (EST) Email Address: t.m.awessel@freeler.nl Message: I fully agree with you, the same goes for Yamaha only the sound is sharper-but more brilliant- than the sound of Kawai but they are both quality piano`s that are at least two to three classis better than the Korean piano`s. I would strongly advise Mike to buy a Japanese piano they are the sub-top among the piano`s. Greetings Tom

Subject: Upright piano From: Liz K To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 12:26:40 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We recently acquired a Beckwith upright (old) piano - it looks like it used to be a player piano I wanted to find some info on this piano & if it can be restored to a player piano again.

Subject: Re: Upright piano to player From: Max To: Liz K Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 15:20:50 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: We recently acquired a Beckwith upright (old) piano - it looks like it used to be a player piano I wanted to find some info on this piano & if it can be restored to a player piano again. --- I'd love to find out about this, too. I have a fine 1912 upright. Still sounds good, though the action is quite light. I understand it was made to be a player piano, but the player mechanism was never installed when it was first acquired brand-new, so it doesn't have any of the normal wear-and-tear you often see on heavily-used players. Is it possible to install something like DiskPlayer or similar into it -- mind you, I know NOTHING about the new technology of current player pianos.

Subject: Re: Upright piano to player From: chasmike To: Max Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 14:28:44 (EST) Email Address: chasmike@swbell.net Message: We recently acquired a Beckwith upright (old) piano - it looks like it used to be a player piano I wanted to find some info on this piano & if it can be restored to a player piano again. --- I'd love to find out about this, too. I have a fine 1912 upright. Still sounds good, though the action is quite light. I understand it was made to be a player piano, but the player mechanism was never installed when it was first acquired brand-new, so it doesn't have any of the normal wear-and-tear you often see on heavily-used players. Is it possible to install something like DiskPlayer or similar into it -- mind you, I know NOTHING about the new technology of current player pianos. --- I've been searching for the best solution for me. Because of this I have found several websites that might help you. Try http://www.pianodisc.com/ and http://www.pianomation.com/ I was planning on getting the pianodisc system but then found another made by QRS music. In my opinion the pianomation by QRS is much better.

Subject: where did Stelzner come from? From: Giselle To: All Date Posted: Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 06:44:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: My family just aquired a piano of the brand 'Stelzner'. As I take piano lessons I was interested to know of it's history. If you have any information on the company or perhaps my piano's history, please contact me.

Subject: Well then, tell me about a Yamaha WX7S From: Michael To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 23:36:17 (EST) Email Address: mkvrnr@aol.com Message: I ran into a Yamaha WX7S the other day. It's a 52' upright similar to a U3 but with some obvious structural differences (truss-like laminated bracing instead of the vertical bracing on a U3). There are also differences in the styling of the cabinet at each end of the keyboard. It is a unique looking instrument as compared to a U1 or U3 -- apparently more massive. Touch is very '6ft grandish'. Does anyone know anything about this model? Is it rare? It's a 1977 model from Japan? Your answers and expertise are much appreciated.

Subject: RD 100 hammermechanic From: José Alberto Silva To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:54:43 (EST) Email Address: jassilva@clix.pt Message: I recently bought a Roland RD 100 by mail and I wish to know if is there a way of puting more weight on its keys. The action is ok but I could do beter with heavier keys. Thank you.

Subject: pianos From: geniemutt To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 21:09:08 (EST) Email Address: geniemutt@aol.com Message: could anyone please give me some information on a new york piano company square grand piano , its history, value, and any available resources. it's a serial number 10353, possibly 1855. thanx

Subject: Uprights From: Roxanne To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 09:00:28 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, Yesterday I went to my piano teacher's studio to practice. He has a Knabe upright, it was made in the 80's. While I was practicing, all the keys would start to feel mushy! And would get stuck all the times. Now, I have Knabe professional grand, made in 1919, and I have not had such a problem with it. My question is, 'How come the uprights have this problem, and the grands don't? After all it is the same company, it should be made in the same way. Right?'

Subject: Re: Uprights From: ryan To: Roxanne Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 12:18:02 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Upright and grand actions are different designs, so they will never feel the same even in the same brand of piano. A basic difference is caused by the fact that in a grand the hammers strike the strings from below, while in an upright they strike the strings from the side. Despite the differences in actions, upright actions can be very good and very close to the action in grand pianos. Some upright actions have design features that give them better performance and feel. That said, it sounds like the upright you played is in very bad shape and in real need of regulation and repair. No action should have sticky keys. Also, better upright actions should not feel mushy.

Subject: Re: Uprights From: Patti To: Roxanne Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 10:22:14 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I cannot address the problems with the piano, but IMHO if your TEACHER has such a poor piano, maybe you should find a different teacher.

Subject: Re: Uprights From: Roxanne To: Patti Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 18:52:13 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, It is not his fault! He works in a piano store where the pianos he is using is nof the owner of the store, he just works there. However, i will tell him of the problem. Thank you both.

Subject: Weser Brothers Cabinet Grand From: Stockman To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 14:44:17 (EST) Email Address: brian_barb@prodigy.net Message: My inlaws are ready to throw out an old Weser Brothers Cabinet Grand (serial #7506) that I would consider to be poor condition. About a dozen of the hammers are broke and the piano could use a good cleaning/restoration. Does anyone have any input regarding this piano and if it is worth keeping?

Subject: Regent player piano info? From: Hilary To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 14:30:45 (EST) Email Address: EJfan@excite.com Message: Hello, I would like to know where I can get some information on Regent player pianos. We have one in our basement and I want to look into possibly getting it restored. The piano's not in great shape. We brought it with us when we moved from our old house to here and it's been in our basement for almost 26 years. Some of the keys stick (broken wire or hammer maybe?), the soft pedal is broken (the sustain works fine), the ivory is deteriorating, the player part doesn't work (it may not be badly broken, I don't know anything about it), and is badly out of tune. I believe it was made in Philadelphia. I tried to find a website but was unsuccessful. Any help or information would be appreciated. I'm learning to play the piano and would like to use this one if it can be restored. (Right now I'm using an 11 year old Casio MT-520 keyboard, but am looking into a digital piano especially if the piano in the basement can't be fixed.) Thank you. Hilary

Subject: Re: Regent player piano info? From: Steve A. To: Hilary Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 12:53:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would have thought that someone more knowledgeable than I would have come to your aid, but I'm not shy. From what you've described, I would doubt that you'd want to put anywhere near the amount of $ into your old piano that it would probably take to make it playable. And then you still might not have a real good piano. Read Larry Fine's book, about which you can find info on this site. If you're considering a digital piano, you can probably afford a good used acoustic piano. Most people on this forum will overwhelmingly tell to get a 'real' piano. If you can affort $2,000 or so, you can buy a good used piano, especially a Japanese. We purchased a 14-yr old Kawai two years ago and it's the best money I ever spent (to hear my wife and daughters play)! We also looked at new digitals. They have their advantages (apartment dwellers, etc), but there's nothing like the real thing. If you spend less than $2,000, you can still do it, but you need to educate yourself and get the help of a professional technician to evaluate pianos. Beware the new inexpensive Koreans. Of course this is all easier if you're located in/near an urban area. Hope this helps. Good luck, Steve

Subject: Parts of the Upright Piano From: C. Patterson To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 19:04:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: How would you describe the an upright piano and it's basic parts to a child (6 and up). I have access to pictures of the basic parts of a Grand Piano, but is there a site in which I can find pictures and diagrams of the Upright?

Subject: Re: Parts of the Upright Piano From: Patti To: C. Patterson Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 10:57:37 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Click on 'Piano World' above and then 'Piano Actions'.

Subject: 1893 Bechstein 's action From: P P To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 10:15:02 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I wish I had come across this board when we were looking for a grand for my daughter. I learned so much from the posts. Anyway, we got a 6'8 Bechstein made in 1893 that was partially restored. It has the original sound board and action, all new strings,new pinblock,hammers,hand-rubbed satin ebony finish. It looks and sounds just beautiful. Best of all,my daughter loves it. Can any one tell me what kind of action does a Bechstein of this vintage have? I can't find the info anywhere. Thank you very much.

Subject: 1905/6 Bluethner uprights From: StephenP To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 07:04:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Okay this is probably dead in the water but I'll ask anyway. I will soon listen to a new 50' Petrof and if I like it I'll buy it. My one niggle is that I like old pianos, and I made a last-ditch attempt last week to find one. Three hours' drive away, I found two Bluethners of about 1905/6 vintage, both big overstrung, underdamped Rosewood models - I don't know why but this make does pop up occasionally in Ireland. I almost regret to say that they they sounded nice. Neither was as dark in tone as I expected, and they really sang, particularly the first. Okay, so that first one seemed good in many respects bar the action, which was uneven. It had had a whole new set of strings and pins, about 10 years ago according to the dealer. He claimed the pinblock was fine, something I couldn't check, but there was still plenty of room between the coils and the block. I checked big things like soundboard, bridges, bridge pins etc and these seemed perfect. But the hammers looked uneven in arrangement at rest even though they moved smoothly, and a few hammer-heads were loose. The heads were worn, occasionally skewed, but there was plenty of felt left to work with. One hammer shank was broken and had only a temporary repair (tape!), and 6 or 7 keys had set-off and repetition problems. Certain keys were pretty noisy, even if they played well. A few of the lowest bass strings buzzed. The dampers worked but looked uneven... etc etc. Perhaps it was due to regulation problems, but although the piano had a fairly light (worn!?) action, it was quite hard to play well - a bit obstinate and often a key would get stuck (fail to play) where the adjacent one had just been played. Inspite of these problems, the thing sounded lovely! The second piano was more original, having its original pins and strings, more even dampers and hammer arrangement, and it sounded nice if less enticing than the first. Problem was, it was tuned a whole semitone down. This surprised me, as there was apparently plenty of room from the coils to the plate covering the pinblock. Hmmm. I couldn't detect signs of doping. But that tuning anomaly bothered me. And the thing was 94 years old. I did not have access to an independent technician, and that's why I'm seeking an informed guess. By the way, the pianos were stickered £2,800 and £3,500 respectively. Quite a lot, even though the seller promised he'd regulate and tune the things fully etc etc after purchase. My feeling was: that's not good enough - there may be expensive problems here and it might be that they'd prefer to sell these things to uninformed people who like the beautiful cabinets (and the name). A pity this is the case IF these instruments really do have potential. INcidentally, temperature and moisture changes are far less extreme here in Ireland (and Britain) than in the US, and that may explain the consistency of the wooden parts. Having said that, many dealer pianos histories are suspect. Dealers like the one I went to buy their pianos in Britain or Europe and so these may have been in the wars, so to speak. Anyway, it seems heartbreaking to pass over a chance at a high-class vintage piano which has a nice tone. However, I am a late learner with developed musical tastes so although tone is important, a good, consistent action is equally so if a satisfactory technique is to be mastered. I am seeking to enjoy playing music, not to win bargain-hunter of the year. Is not caution the best route here?

Subject: Re: 1905/6 Bluethner uprights From: David Burton To: StephenP Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 08:37:26 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: I'm sorry but that's a lot of money for an old piano, Bluthner or otherwise. Pianos of that vintage are ripe for complete rebuilds if their wooden parts other than actions are in good condition. But even so they have to be priced way down to make the proposition worthwhile and then in Ireland you would have to know of someone with a suitable reputation who would be willing to take on a project like this. The result could be quite wonderful of course. But then again there are newer pianos out there, especially as you are so close to the continent. I'm still wondering if it wouldn't pay you to go directly to a piano factory in Germany and get some kind of deal. After all presumably being in the EEC matters somewhat when it comes to shipping.

Subject: Re: 1905/6 Bluethner uprights From: StephenP To: David Burton Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 10:43:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Thank you David Burton. I think you're right about the cost. That level of cash indicates that the furniture aspect is taking precedence over the musical one, which is a pity. To tell you the truth, I'd love to do a piano technician's course and maybe, after some experience, end up saving some of these old pianos. As a private buyer, however, the phrase caveat emptor springs to mind! I never thought about travelling to Europe and seeking to buy direct. Though the idea is highly appealing, frankly right now I hardly have any time to spare and that would still cost a bit; and I'm not sure the net result would see me in the modest money which Petrofs occupy. I think that I may begin a longer-term hunt AFTER I buy that 50 inch Petrof! If the playing goes well and my priorities evolve, I might even end up considering a grand. Many thanks again for your kind help.

Subject: Re: 1905/6 Bluethner uprights From: David Burton To: StephenP Date Posted: Tues, Nov 23, 1999 at 04:29:02 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: My current thinking on some of what you said is here. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/F991123.html

Subject: Young Chang PG From: Philippe H To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 12:42:38 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I am planning to buy a Young Chang PG-185 piano (Pramberger signature). I have tried it and was happy with what I have heard. Any thoughts/experience with that you could share with me would be appreciated. I have read mixed review on Young Chang piano's. However this was based, I believe, on a long term view. Since then I would believe it has improved. Especially since Mr Pramberger, formely from Steinway, has joined the company. Also the fact that Steinway has announced that they will build a model with YC makes me think that after all YC is not a bad company. Finally I have negociated my piano for less than 12,000 US $: is it a fair price. Thank you for your help

Subject: This may be the one! Schaefer & Sons From: Sheila To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 22:23:20 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: A reputable tech has led me to a 9 or 10 year old Schaefer & Son, 5'8'. It was hardly ever played by the woman who left it to her nephew who happens to be a professional piano mover. It was appraised at $10,000, but the asking price is $6,000. The tech and I know S&S could have been made by almost anyone, but he says the sound is the best he's heard in a very long time. Says its a wonderful piano. We're going to look at it tomorrow night. Any thoughts on a S&S? Am I crazy? Sheila

Subject: Re: This may be the one! Schaefer & Sons From: Niles Duncan To: Sheila Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 05:57:26 (EST) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: A reputable tech has led me to a 9 or 10 year old Schaefer & Son, 5'8'. It was hardly ever played by the woman who left it to her nephew who happens to be a professional piano mover. It was appraised at $10,000, but the asking price is $6,000. The tech and I know S&S could have been made by almost anyone, but he says the sound is the best he's heard in a very long time. Says its a wonderful piano. We're going to look at it tomorrow night. Any thoughts on a S&S? Am I crazy? --- Mediocre Korean piano. Whoever appraised this at $10,000 is out of his mind or trying to pull a fast one. The typical asking price for a used Schaeffer & Sons grand in my territory (Los Angeles) is about $4500. I think they sound thin, tinny, and cheap. If your tech thinks this is the best sounding piano he's heard in a long time I would wonder whether he ever services good pianos, or whether there is a conflict of interest here and he is saying whatever it takes to sell the piano because there is something in it for him. Maybe you should talk to some other technicians in your area and get more than this guy's opinion. If you have a daughter that's been playing for 9 or so years and is pretty good, she deserves something with more expressive capability than one of these. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Kranich & Bach From: Sheila To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 09:13:10 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What can you tell me about the Kranich & Bach Grand? I will read Larry's Atlas when I can get to the library, but in the meantime I hope you may have some opinions. Of course I'll have a tech look at it, but in general what do you know about K&B?

Subject: Re: Kranich & Bach From: Granholm Bros To: Sheila Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 14:11:34 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanwb.net Message: What can you tell me about the Kranich & Bach Grand? I will read Larry's Atlas when I can get to the library, but in the meantime I hope you may have some opinions. Of course I'll have a tech look at it, but in general what do you know about K&B? --- Niles Duncan discussed K&B grands recently on this forum, and you might want to go look for his comments. He and I have both rebuilt these pianos, and I believe I can safely say we share the following opinions: --Not great pianos to start with. --Actions of unique and somewhat strange design, making K&B grands difficult at best to repair and a nightmare to regulate. --You'd do best to avoid this one and look for another piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Old Grand Baldwin From: Sheila To: Granholm Bros Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 19:19:54 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What can you tell me about the Kranich & Bach Grand? I will read Larry's Atlas when I can get to the library, but in the meantime I hope you may have some opinions. Of course I'll have a tech look at it, but in general what do you know about K&B? --- Niles Duncan discussed K&B grands recently on this forum, and you might want to go look for his comments. He and I have both rebuilt these pianos, and I believe I can safely say we share the following opinions: --Not great pianos to start with. --Actions of unique and somewhat strange design, making K&B grands difficult at best to repair and a nightmare to regulate. --You'd do best to avoid this one and look for another piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR --- Thanks for the great advice. Much appreciated! I've now come across a Baldwin Grand, 5'6', 1918, totally rebuilt on the interior, etc. just a couple of years ago. Plan to have a tech look at it this week. CAN A PIANO SO OLD GIVE GOOD RESULTS WHEN REDONE? Asking price is $4200. If it's in good shape might be perfect for my daughter that's played for 9 years. I would have preferred a 5'8' or 5'9' but 5'6' still might be OK.

Subject: Re: Old Grand Baldwin From: Niles Duncan To: Sheila Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 05:39:52 (EST) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: The 5'6' Baldwin is one of my most recommended pianos for someone having less than $10,000 to spend on a used or rebuilt piano. If it's a good rebuilding job, $4200 is an excellent price. I'd get your tech out to see it fast, and if it's good grab it before someone else beats you to it. The last 5'6' Baldwin that I rebuilt I sold for $8000. Yes, a piano that old can be rebuilt to be an excellent instrument. It all depends on the original condition and the thoroughness of the rebuilder. Forget the Kranich & Bach - they're a mediocre piano - and check this one out. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Old Grand Baldwin From: David Burton To: Sheila Date Posted: Mon, Nov 22, 1999 at 01:12:06 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Yes, if a piano has been competently rebuilt and it was good to begin with it should be perfectly fine. A 5'6' is an odd size, just on the border but for a bit over $4K that's a good price. I'd have a tech look it over though. If you like it, ask him how he might voice it if he or she can do that. I have tended to like the older rebuilt Baldwins better than some newer ones.

Subject: shulze pollman pianos From: dhall To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 21:26:31 (EST) Email Address: dhallmd@mindspring.com Message: Does anyone know anything about the quality of Schulze Pollman pianos? They are made in Northern Italy.

Subject: knowledge From: kimberly To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 19:05:19 (EST) Email Address: patchco@msn.com Message: we ahve a penny owsley co. piano denmark making numbers found on and in 9153 a1603 36724 3 sets of numbers

Subject: Cable Nelson Piano From: Judy To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 16:37:48 (EST) Email Address: jtelgenhof@yahoo.com Message: My husband and I are looking for a used piano for our kids. We're really clueless about pianos and have found a Cable Nelson spinet for $500.00. It sounds good and looks okay. Is it a good piano? We'd also like some info on how to move a piano. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Cable Nelson Piano From: Granholm Bros To: Judy Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 14:05:45 (EST) Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net Message: My husband and I are looking for a used piano for our kids. We're really clueless about pianos and have found a Cable Nelson spinet for $500.00. It sounds good and looks okay. Is it a good piano? We'd also like some info on how to move a piano. Thanks! --- Judy, a Cable-Nelson spinet would not be put into the category of great pianos. Some rules of thumb: 1. A student piano need not be the best piano in the world, but it must tune reliably and be stable at standard pitch, and it must be in good repair and properly regulated. You'll defeat your purpose if you buy a cheap junky piano, because the piano's poor performance and lousy sound will frustrate your kids and they will quit. 2. Buy the biggest piano your budget will allow. Assuming overall initial quality to be about the same, a 40-inch console piano is better than a spinet, and a 48-inch studio piano is much better than both of the others. A bigger piano plays better, sounds better, tunes better, and will meet your musical needs for a longer time if your kids continue with the instrument. 3. Be patient in your search, and always, always consult with a piano technician when looking for a used piano. The small amount you spend for professional advice will pay big dividends when you finally write the check, and hopefully the tech can help you find a piano you and your children can enjoy for many years. 4. Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', available elsewhere on this site, is a great resource for people who are clueless about pianos. It may also be available in your public library. 5. To move your piano: Don't. Spare yourself possible serious injury and the piano possible damage and hire a professional. Pianos are very dangerous objects for the inexperienced to move. Hope this helps. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: 50's Hamilton babygrand by Baldwin From: A To: All Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 09:32:53 (EST) Email Address: martinez@rica.net Message: As I do not have access to the Pierce Piano Atlas, could someone tell me what is known of Hamilton labeled baby/grands ('by Baldwin')? The serial number is somewhere in the 2xxx,xxx range which I was told makes it mid to late 1950's. I came across the piano while looking at Asian studio uprights! It seems to have a very nice sound and a lot more 'personality' than the typical Kawai/Yamaha :> Asking price is around $3k in good condition. Any comments would be welcome.

Subject: Re: 50's Hamilton babygrand by Baldwin From: A To: A Date Posted: Sun, Nov 21, 1999 at 09:34:17 (EST) Email Address: martinez@rica.net Message: As I do not have access to the Pierce Piano Atlas, could someone tell me what is known of Hamilton labeled baby/grands ('by Baldwin')? The serial number is somewhere in the 2xxx,xxx range which I was told makes it mid to late 1950's. I came across the piano while looking at Asian studio uprights! It seems to have a very nice sound and a lot more 'personality' than the typical Kawai/Yamaha :> Asking price is around $3k in good condition. Any comments would be welcome. --- oops I meant S/n around 2xx,xxx !!

Subject: H.P. Nelson piano From: nelson To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 20, 1999 at 14:30:21 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I bought a H.P. Nelson concert grand piano at an estate auction, I would like some information on its history and value serial # 88418 nelson

Subject: Samick Grand From: Nells To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:21:01 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I assume the pianos you are talking about are uprights. What's your opinion on the Samick Grand, either 5,7' or 5'9', NEW. I've read enough to know they don't rank at the top, but are they a good quality? Is buying one a mistake? They are more affordable than the Kawai. Your opinions and experiences with this piano will be appreciated. P.S. My mistake, I meant to add this to thread about "Samick vs. Kawai that Cork answered! Nells

Subject: Knabe grand From: Andrea Carter To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:16:22 (EST) Email Address: andrea@meyerassociates.com Message: I have a 1872 Knabe square grand in excellent condition. Needs to be retuned. All original except for a small portion of the sound board which we had reconstructed about 20 years ago. I am interested in selling. What would be a reasonable and realistic price to ask.

Subject: Re: Knabe grand From: Cork To: Andrea Carter Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:16:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Andrea, A piano's value is related to it's capability as a musical instrument (with rare exceptions like Steinway). Unfortunately, your square grand is not worth particularly much as a musical instrument. It's possible some period instrument nut or museum would be interested; otherwise, it's value is dependent on its furniture value. Sorry . . . Cork

Subject: F. Geiger Antique Upright From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 09:44:43 (EST) Email Address: j.chapma@radium.ncsc.mil Message: I want to sell an F. Geiger upright piano (circa 1880). Has anyone ever heard of this brand of piano? I purchased the piano in Germany 25+ years ago and would now like to sell it. It will need serious tuning! Any information would be apreciated.

Subject: Re: F. Geiger Antique Upright From: Cork To: Jim Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:12:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: You should have it tuned and inspected by a professional piano technician. He or she can help guide you on value.

Subject: Charles R. Walter grand pianos From: Ray To: All Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 14:45:46 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Can anyone tell me anything about the quality of Charles R. Walter grand pianos as compared to Baldwin, for example? In The Piano Book, Larry Fine places the Walter verticals in Category 5 in his qualitative comparison of pianos. I'm wondering if the Walter grands would also be in Category 5. Anyone familiar with them?

Subject: Re: Charles R. Walter grand pianos From: Mat D. To: Ray Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:05:59 (EST) Email Address: antmaril@aol.com Message: Ray, I have played a couple of Charles Walter grands & found them to be excellent, in fact on one ocassion there was a Steinway B (rebuilt) next to the Cahrles Walter & the Charles Walter stood up very favorably. The tonal quality (voicing) is similar to other American pianos (Steinway/Mason & Hamlin-my personal brand-/Baldwin), a complex, warm tone as compared to the more fundamental (thinner) tone of the German pianos. --- Another bonus is their very nice 'hand rubbed' lacquer finshed woodwork. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Charles R. Walter grand pianos From: ryan To: Ray Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:38:11 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: I have breifly played the Walter grands, and really like them a lot. Given that they are priced below the expensive tier of grand pianos, yet they give you so much more than the next tier down (e.g. Young Chang, Yamaha, Boston, etc.) I would look very hard at getting a Walter grand, if I were looking for a grand piano. Of course I would need to spend many more hours on one to see how it reacts to different music, but my initial impressions were vary favorable. Ryan

Subject: Re: Charles R. Walter grand pianos From: Danika To: Ray Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 15:19:30 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi! I own a Walter Upright and love it! The Grands are spectacular and sound so rich! Fabulous action. The best I can do is give you a name and number of a store that sells Walters along with other various pianos. (They have great experience with old Steinways.) What state are you in? This number would be in Mass.

Subject: mellow? ... pianodisc From: ChasMike To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 23:40:50 (EST) Email Address: chasmike@swbell.net Message: I am hoping to soon purchase a piano (vertical) to replace the Young Chang I sold several years ago. I really like the action of the YC. I've been reading the posts here and have seen some 'not-so-friendly' reviews of YC, that's fine with me, I'm more interested in getting a piano that 1) has action simular to my old YC; 2) has a very mellow sound; 3) will easily accept a pianodisc retrofit. The purpose for this purchase is to rebuild a midi studio I used to have. I want the centerpiece of the studio to be acoustic, but I am mostly familiar with digitals. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please when responding check the 'Send a copy of your reply to recipients email'. Again, thanks in advance. The quality/quantity of knowledge here is amazing. ;)

Subject: Re: mellow? ... pianodisc From: cork To: ChasMike Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 23:05:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I would just recommend you buy another YC, which are pretty good value for the money, but your 'mellow' sound sort of blows that away. For a mellow sound in a (structurally)well-built vertical, consider Charles Walter, Petrof, and Baldwin, and look at instruments that are at least 48' or taller. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike Parks To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 21:54:46 (EST) Email Address: mikeandgina@webtv.net Message: Does anyone have any info on the Bechendorff line of pianos? Looking at one for sale and can find no info. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Tom To: Mike Parks Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 04:36:55 (EST) Email Address: t.mawessel@freeler.nl Message: Source:Piano Atlas by Bob Pierce P.O.Box 20520 Albuquerque,Nw. Mexico 87154-0520. Bechendorff: Name used by Young Chang. See Young Chang My opinion: obviously a combination of the two worldfamous brands : Bechstein and Bosendorfer. No thanks, Tom

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike To: Tom Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 17:23:53 (EST) Email Address: mikeandgina@webtv.net Message: Source:Piano Atlas by Bob Pierce P.O.Box 20520 Albuquerque,Nw. Mexico 87154-0520. Bechendorff: Name used by Young Chang. See Young Chang My opinion: obviously a combination of the two worldfamous brands : Bechstein and Bosendorfer. No thanks, Tom --- Thanks for the info Tom. Appreciate your insight and opinion on the origination of the name Bechendorff. It sure does make sense! Do you find pianos by Young Chang objectionable? I could find no info on the brand in Larry Fine's book. Thanks again, Mike.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: MikeP To: Tom Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 14:25:51 (EST) Email Address: Parkefamily@netscape.net Message: On Yahoo Auctions, fivestarmusic of Glendale, CA is selling two new Bachendorff pianos (sic), an upright and a grand. Their 'great price' for the upright is because of their volume of business with the 'famous Bachendorff Pianos'. They are also aggressively selling Thomas Pianos. When I asked them out of curiosity who makes the pianos they deleted the question.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Niles Duncan To: MikeP Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 16:20:08 (EST) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: On Yahoo Auctions, fivestarmusic of Glendale, CA is selling two new Bachendorff pianos (sic), an upright and a grand. Their 'great price' for the upright is because of their volume of business with the 'famous Bachendorff Pianos'. They are also aggressively selling Thomas Pianos. When I asked them out of curiosity who makes the pianos they deleted the question. --- As Glendale CA is right in my backyard I'm tempted to go visit 5 Star Music, pose as a naive buyer to check out the Bechendorff, and see how they try to pass this thing off. It might be amusing. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles, CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: David Burton To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:55:17 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Niles says, 'As Glendale CA is right in my backyard I'm tempted to go visit 5 Star Music, pose as a naive buyer to check out the Bechendorff, and see how they try to pass this thing off. It might be amusing.' Oh please do and report back to us. Try asking them how their Bechendorff (with 2 f's LOL) compares with the Baldstein you played across town or the Broadwood & Mehlin you might have played last month in another city. See if they piak up on your experiences.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: David Burton Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:24:42 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: 5 star music replied to my e-mail about Bachendorff. It is a 'high end piano made in China'.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: David Burton To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:50:23 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Bachendorff; a 'high end piano made in China'. Is this an oxymoron? All it says in the Pierce Piano Atlas is thatit's a name used by Young Chang. Young Chang is out of South Korea even though they sound Chinese. Maybe they really are Chinese.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: David Burton Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 13:16:37 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: Check my question and their reply under the Yahoo auction for a 5'4' Bachendorff Grand (note not Bechendorff) with 7 or 8 days left to run. They started the auction at $10,750.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 14:49:24 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: Their 'Bachendorff Grand' is listed as 5'4'. Shouldn't that be a baby grand? Are there some labelling standards that music stores are expected to follow when advertising?

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: John D. To: Mike P. Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 15:09:06 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Their 'Bachendorff Grand' is listed as 5'4'. Shouldn't that be a baby grand? Are there some labelling standards that music stores are expected to follow when advertising? --- Aside from the name, which may or may not intend to mislead, I don't believe that calling a 5'4' piano a 'grand' is misleading. I have a 7'4' grand that people constantly refer to as a 'baby grand'! I've even heard it refered to as 'a very big baby grand'!!! To be accurate, my piano is technically a 'quarter concert grand' - a term rarely, if ever, heard. Personally, I call any piano with horizontal strings a 'grand'.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 16:50:18 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: I guess I'm just oversensitive to selling techniques. I've asked them twice who makes their Bachendorff pianos without reply. I posted here originally because I noticed the other Mike was using WebTV and therefore may have been looking at this auction. As for myself, with the great help of people on this forum, I think I've gotten a really nice used entry level piano for my daughter. Plus this morning when it was delivered I received as a bonus a special moment. Just after my daughter had lifted the fall board from the side to look at the keys, my 21 month old son walked into the room. The look of astonishment, joy, delight, and rapture on his face was beautiful. After a moment of looking at the piano he crawled onto the piano bench, sat down with perfect posture, and started playing the piano (a one note at a time rythmic melody - but still using both hands). He's never seen a piano before, just his sister's $70 keyboard (that she's been putting across the arms of a chair to practice on until we could find/afford a piano for her). When we picked him up so that my daughter could play her piano he cried miserably. When we then took him to the living room and tried to interest him in the keyboard (and let him understand that it's now his) he rejected it and headed back for the 'real' thing. He hasn't forgotten either, since I just talked to my wife while writing this and he's spent the entire day trying to get back into the room with the piano.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: ryan To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:19:31 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Right now I just have a digital piano, but when I visit a piano store with my 21 month son I can't get him away from the 'real' pianos. He plays like you say, one finger in each hand with rhythm, trying to pick out melodies. He also likes to play two notes at a time and listen to their sonority. He always likes it when he hits an octave, but doesn't like dissonant intervals. I will be bringing home a new upright in the next month or two, and anticipate the same look of joy. The only thing is that I am pretty sure I won't be able to get him off of it in order to play it myself! Ryan

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: ryan Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 14:16:13 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: My daughter had her first full practice on her piano and for most of it she had to share with our son who sat beside her and played duet. He seems fascinated with the highest note on the piano for some reason though. My daughter wants to 'play a concert' this evening and has already placed chairs in anticipation.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: ryan To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 17:04:52 (EST) Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com Message: Mike, That is so cute, and wonderful! It must be awesome to see your kids enjoy the new piano so much. If both of them stay with it, I bet it will be very rewarding to watch them grow and improve. Congratulations on your find and I hope it provides years of enjoyment.!

Subject: upcoming Parke family concert From: Joy To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 16:13:51 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Sounds like a wonderful evening ahead. Priceless Kodak/VCR (non-MasterCard) moments.Enjoy it! Kids grow up way too fast. Can't believe my own piano-playing son will leave the nest in less than 2 years. I learned a great deal from reading about your piano shopping, Mike. Sounds like you truly did your homework and none the worse for the wear. Tom gave eye-opening observations -- buyer beware!! -- on poor piano specimens. Fascinating, the histories of pianos. Best of all, it's fun to find out about pianos from the European perspective of a Dutch piano technician! I remember an interesting conversation with a studio musician who had a used M&H for sale. She had been trained in Russia, spoke with a lovely accent.Someone else had beat me to her M&H -- and she had bought a Steinway grand.I told her of a used Petrof I planned to look at, and she sighed,"Petrof?? Petrof?? I grew up playing Petrofs!! They are so common where I come from. You want a PETROF???" And in between, all the helpful feedback, with comic relief from the Yahoo Auction (high-end Chinese piano indeed) in progress. You learn so much about pianos from this Forum!

Subject: Re: upcoming Parke family concert From: Mike P. To: Joy Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 17:02:13 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: That's a nice story. You're also very right that the most important people in all of this are the kids.

Subject: What did you get? From: Joy To: Mike P. Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 18:55:04 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: What a wonderful story. Children teach us so much. It will be interesting to watch if these siblings get competitive when they start lessons. My son's piano teacher has stories about that. So if you didn't get the famous Bechendoff, can you tell us what you got -- that is, what delighted your children?

Subject: Re: What did you get? From: Mike P. To: Joy Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:52:02 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: They're seven years different in age, so I hope they never really get competitive. It was the other Mike looking at a Bechendorff. I bought a six year old J. Becker 45' upright built in St. Petersburg, Russia for $800. The sound is wonderful. The price was low because the pianos made in St. Petersburg since the fall of the Soviet Union have been very inconsistent in quality, the dominant problem being loose tuning pins (costing maybe $500 to fix). It used to be that things made for export were excellent and only things for the internal markets were badly done. We seem to have been lucky, though, and have found a piano that is both beautiful outside and in good condition inside. Much better than a used low-end spinnet or the '20 year old Baldwin with mushy keys' somebody else posted about.

Subject: Re: What did you get? From: Tom To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:08:21 (EST) Email Address: t.m.awessel@freeler.nl Message: Hello Mike, After re-reading your message about the purchase of your Russian Becker piano I realized that I misunderstood it and that your piano has no loose tuning pins, maybe I was blinded by reading the name J. Becker and I read your message too quickly. So you`re not in such a bad situation as I thought at first. But my opinion about those Russian piano`s stays the same, maybe you were so lucky to get one that`s less bad than the average Becker. Every now and then, when the workers are happy ( when they get paid )they produce such a piano but it`s like looking for a needle in a haystack if you trie to find one. Good luck and much pleasure with your piano, Tom.

Subject: Re: What did you get? From: Mike P. To: Tom Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 14:00:33 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: I apologize that I wrote the other post while you were writing this one. However it does seem to me that you got scammed on the shipment of pianos you got. They sound just a little too bad in quality for it not to be deliberate. Also, maybe the piano I got is really older - I don't know how to check. The piano was imported five years ago. It does seem like a minefield though to buy from Eastern Europe because quotas were (and maybe still are) more important than quality. I'm also minded of a quote I saw elsewhere referring to rebuilds that the name on the fallboard is more important than the quality of the piano. For this reason I expect the resale market to be depressed for the forseeable future. For us it doesn't matter as long as the piano proves over time to be a good one. We're setting up a regular maintenance schedule for it and are hopeful. To my naive ear it sounds similar to a Weinbach. I've only read one or two posts about pianos that were initially wonderful and later junk (even with maintenance). I think that, like most who post on this forum - it is critical to get any piano checked out before buying it. I think you've made a lot of very helpful posts for people on this forum and wish you all the best. I hope I haven't come across as critical.

Subject: Re: What did you get? From: Tom To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 07:42:01 (EST) Email Address: t.m.awessel@freeler.nl Message: Hello Mike, I`m very sorry that I cannot congratulate you with your purchase. I know those Russian Becker piano`s from St. Petersburg all too well, to my regret. If you look inside the piano you will probably finf the name Bellarus, which means White Russia, if not then the piano is older than six years. My expieriences with those piano`s are : - an irregular and heavy action - it`s impossible to regulate (is this the right word?) them properly. - The base strings are unstable and/or dull - All the used materials are bad and cheap - The piano is extremely sensitive to weather (moist)changes - The wood that is used is not properly dried and of bad quality. About n ot properly dried wood used in piano`s one of my teachers used to say : ' if you open such a piano and you listen carefully, then you can still hear the birds sing.' And loose tuning pins after 6 years, that is ridiculous! A good constructed piano with the right materials can be tuned at least 30-40years without any problem. I even tune piano`s that are over 80 years old and still have the original tuning pins. I must strongly advise you to trie to get your purchase undone. You bought a bad piano for too much money. About six years ago those Becker piano`s ( exported from St. Petersburg ) were sold here in Holland for about $1400 (Dealers cost price incl. transport about $375. Sorry again Mike I hate to be a messenger of bad news and I do not want to insult people, but I thought you had to know. What you do is your bussiness but I would at least trie to demand a cost free repair. The tuning pins have to be replaced by bigger ones. I hate dishonest salesmen who take advantage of their clients in situations like this. I hope the matter will be solved to your satisfaction. Good luck Tom

Subject: Re: What did you get? From: Mike P. To: Tom Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:21:04 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: Belarus is a different country than Russia, situated north of Ukraina. I have read elsewhere about the horrible pianos made in Belarus. This piano was checked out by a tech who I trust and does not need new tuning pins. Even if it did we would still have a piano that is much better than the others we've seen at the higher combined price. A local concert pianist who learned in the Soviet Union on a Becker said 'You may be buying trouble, but the piano is well worth any trouble you may have'. She felt that we could not find a better piano for a beginner in this price range because of the sound and feel. We've been warned elsewhere that good pianos usually start at $1500 and even then one should get it checked out to make sure. The action is neither heavy nor irregular. There is no sign of improperly dried wood. I won't know about stability until we've had it for a while, but the bass is strong and lively. Since it seems fine now, we're hoping for many years of good use. Down the road when we can maybe afford it better we'll look at getting a top end piano. If your pianos were made in Belarus, it sounds like somebody was pulling a scam on you. If the price is extraordinary even for the Soviet Union then there's probably something wrong somewhere. I've heard of companies showcasing the finest Crimean wines and then shipping vinegar. Some years back there was a big scandal in Italy for exporting dyed fermented potato juice as wine (they figured Americans couldn't tell the difference anyways). Inconsistent means some bad and some good depending on who made it and when, plus the consistency of the parts used. A bad reputation will keep prices down, but we got this piano for our daughter (and maybe later son) to learn on and don't care much about resale value. I read in the Larry Fine supplement (on line) that Baldwin stopped putting their name on their low end pianos because this confused people about the quality of Baldwins. I'm sure the resale market reflects this, since my daughter's piano teacher voiced the opinion 'stay away from Baldwins'. Irregular quality was true during the time of the Soviet Union and afterwards. During the last years of the Soviet Union their products were high graded for cash export and the quality of the export products was usually good. The bad ones were saved for the monopoly internal markets. Now it's pot luck for everybody. All the above is why I said we seemed to be lucky in the piano we found. This is probably true of any country really, but if you're going to import from Eastern Europe from a company that you don't have any long standing relationship with - then you need to inspect individually everything you're buying and insure that substitutions can't be made before you receive it. Locally during the past three months I could have bought a beat up, dead sounding, twenty year old (?) Kimball spinnet for $1200, a thirty year old low end Baldwin console for $1200, another thirty year old Baldwin for $1350, or a low end thirty year old Yamaha console for $1200. This last was at least interesting, but I didn't like the sound - I think there was something wrong with it. I've since read that used Japanese market Yamahas are being brought into this country and sold in this price range (caveat emptor) - maybe this was one. I also could have bought several one hundred year old off-name pianos needing complete rebuilds for anywhere from $100 to $700.

Subject: Re: What did you get? From: David Burton To: Mike P. Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 13:17:03 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Mike P. reports concerning his J. Becker upright piano, 'I have read elsewhere about the horrible pianos made in Belarus. This piano was checked out by a tech who I trust and does not need new tuning pins. Even if it did we would still have a piano that is much better than the others we've seen at the higher combined price. A local concert pianist who learned in the Soviet Union on a Becker said 'You may be buying trouble, but the piano is well worth any trouble you may have'. She felt that we could not find a better piano for a beginner in this price range because of the sound and feel.' Otherwise he seems to have done his shopping pretty well. My comments are gathered from the techs in New England and New York whom I have talked with concerning 'Russian' pianos and yes their quality varies all over the map from pretty good to really bad. Is there anything one could say based on brand? Well those named Belarus were considered the worst although some pianos made there were outfitted with better actions and hammers, notably larger than average whippens, weighted keys and French hammers that were made for Pleyel uprights. Many of these were named Schubert, like mine which was made in 1993, after the collapse of the Soviet Union. You can see a picture of it on my website which is at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505 I like mine though I have and will continue to put money into makingit more than it started out to be. In the Spring I'm going to go for a revoicing. I already replaced the pedals. But I like the tone and the action very much. The Becker piano company is really a family owned business that was one of those islands of private enterprise in an otherwise completely collectivized society. They supposedly manufactured their own pianos back in the late 19th century; read Czarist times. They are the notorious low tension grands, big low toned, long sustained, etc. Very few are left around that haven't been smashed up or burned by revolutionaries, etc. Scriabin played one. After the revolution Becker functioned as dealers, putting their name on the best they could find being manufactured in Russia. This is still the case, which may or may not mean much in terms of reliable quality.

Subject: Re: History of Becker? From: Mike P. To: David Burton Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 14:39:39 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: Thank you for sharing this information. It sounds like it would be difficult to impossible to figure out where a given piano was actually made.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: John D. To: Mike P. Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 18:31:25 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Mike, Congratulations on your piano purchase! I think music, in the form of a piano, is one of the greatest gifts a parent can give their children. I'm forever grateful to my parent's for buying me my first piano. It sounds like your son is a natural! I'm sure you and your family will have many years of happiness ahead with the most beautiful musical instrument ever invented! John D.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: John D. Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 21:58:06 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: Thank you. I'm looking forward to watching and listening while both of my children learn.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike P. To: Niles Duncan Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 17:47:12 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: I wonder if Bachendorff is a takeoff on the name Bechendorff? If so, why not Bachstein or Weinbech or Steinwey?

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Tom To: Mike P. Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 13:29:45 (EST) Email Address: t.a.mwessel@freeler.nl Message: I do not know how things are in the U.S., but here in Europe ( I`m Dutch ) a lot of the cheaper piano`s are sold under what I call fantasy names. Most af the time the names are constructed by using parts of famous names f.i. Steinbach ( Steinway/Ibach ). Also names of composers are used such as bruckner, wagner or cherny. For the cheapest piano`s that arrive mostly brandless at the dealers, good sounding German names are in- vented, such as Rosler, Rosenblatt,because German piano`s are considered the better ones in Europe. Those names are mostly used for Russian ( The worst piano`s I know ), other East-European piano`s or Chinese piano`s. But also for the somewhat better piano`s made in Korea. To me Bechendorff is just another Korean piano that probably is sold under another name in Europe or in other parts of the world. Korean piano`s are not bad for their price and a lot better than Russian or Cinese piano`s and I would not call them objectionable but they cannot compete with brands as Yamaha Kawai, Schimmel, Ibach, Grotrian Steinweg, Seiler or Sauter Let alone Steinway, Bechstein or other top-brands. All this from the point of vieuw of a pianotuner/technician, I`m not much of a player. If you want more info about Young Chang, look it up at page 388 from the 10th edition of the Pierce piano atlas Greetings Tom.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Mike To: Tom Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:38:55 (EST) Email Address: mikeandgina@webtv.net Message: Tom, Thankyou again for your input as I try to wade through this jungle of names and varying qualities. I'm interested in purchasing a grand and am in that rut between being frugal and getting what I really want. Do I get more piano for the money by buying Korean or stick with a used Japanese. By the way, did you hear that Steinway's contract with Kawai to make their Boston brand has expired and they are now going to use Young Chang? Should be interesting. Thanks again, Mike.

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Tom To: Mike Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:26:09 (EST) Email Address: t.m.awessel@freeler.nl Message: Mike, If you can buy a Japanese Grand that is not older than 10 years ( which is practically new )for the same price or less than a new Korean you definitely will be better off and I would advise you to do that. You`re welcome Tom

Subject: Re: Whats a Bechendorff From: Paula To: Mike Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 08:18:29 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hello, I would suggest you to buy a piano that is in good shape and that does not cost you too much money! As with which one is the best to buy? This you would have to figure it out. Some pianos are have a very light action, some others have a heavy action. Thus, you have to know what type of action you prefer. I hope this has been of help!

Subject: Re: Steinway and Young Chang From: Mike P. To: Mike Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 21:44:28 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: On the Young Chang web page (there is a link under manufacturers either here or on the piano tech's page), there is a press release announcing that Young Chang will build a new low end line of pianos separate from the Boston line. They haven't decided what to call it yet.

Subject: Two Mike P's From: Mike P. To: Tom Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 15:40:27 (EST) Email Address: parkefamily@netscape.net Message: Just to clear up any possible confusion, there are two of us posting on this thread. No doubt we are distantly related some many hundreds of years ago in Britain but we are different posters. My understanding is that a snooty group (my ancestors) used an e on the end of their name while others used s, er, es, or no ending.

Subject: Anyone heard of this From: Brian Lounsbury To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 22:58:00 (EST) Email Address: lounsbry@sover.net Message: I ran into a new one. I was in a clients home and saw what looked like a toy piano. It is only a three 8va keyboard, Full width, but only half length keys. The maker is Zoghanin & Fairchild. It is old, how old, not certain. Any insights?

Subject: Re: Anyone heard of this From: David Burton To: Brian Lounsbury Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:37:05 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Zoghanin & Fairchild? Well, the Pierce Piano Atlas knows no such name which is worth something since they usually list even the most obscure names. There is no Zoghanin listed by itself either, however there are three Fairchilds listed though not with much information. 1) A Fairchild with no other marks of identification, 2) A Fairchild & W. Dwyer made in New York in 1870 and 3) A Fairchild made for Thos. Goggan & Bros. by Foster - Armstrong, read a factory in E.Rochester, New York which was later the big flagship factory of Aeolean-American. In summary, it is at least a 90% chance that that old piano was made in New York State, probably in E. Rochester but perhaps in New York City and that it was probably made for some retailer perhaps named Zoghanin by someone with the Fairchild name. Something you might try is looking inside and seeing what you can find on the plate or on the sides inside the case. I'm assuming this is an old upright. Trying to figure out where an old piano came from can be a lot of fun. It doesn't mean that the piano in question is very special or worth any money however.

Subject: When is the best time for tuning? From: Elizabeth To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:50:40 (EST) Email Address: poetique@yahoo.com Message: Hi people, Hope you can help me. winter is coming and I live in the North Midwest. The humidity is decreasing and I can hear my piano 'twang' at the higher notes slightly. Is this a good time to tune the piano or should I wait till december when the weather is a little more harsh? As for the summer time when it gets more humid....when's the best time to retune it? Thanks for your help Elizabeth

Subject: Re: When is the best time for tuning? From: David Burton To: Elizabeth Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:03:48 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Hi people, Hope you can help me. winter is coming and I live in the North Midwest. The humidity is decreasing and I can hear my piano 'twang' at the higher notes slightly. Is this a good time to tune the piano or should I wait till december when the weather is a little more harsh? As for the summer time when it gets more humid....when's the best time to retune it? Thanks for your help Elizabeth --- You can have your piano tuned now, then wait until late next spring when the humidity has changed back into the usual summer pattern to tune it again.

Subject: Estate Sale/Piano From: LeAnne Boldenow To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 11:49:49 (EST) Email Address: leanne_boldenow@bradycompany.com Message: I'm working the Estate Sale of my Great Aunt in Albany, OR this Saturday. Can you give a value of the following: Storey & Clark Mahogany Color with Mahogany Sounding Board Style 49 Purchased in 1960 with rounded cheeks & legs. Excellent condition Thanks for your assistance. We currently have it marked as $1250. Regards, LeAnne Boldenow Account Executive BRADY & COMPANY leanne_boldenow@bradycompany.com Phone: 907-276-5617 Fax: 907-276-6292

Subject: Re: Estate Sale/Piano From: David Burton To: LeAnne Boldenow Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 12:00:59 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: LeAnne Boldenow, Please be advised that your price of $1,250 may be considered a high but acceptable price for this piano but that no piano has a 'Mahogany Sounding Board.' All piano soundboards are made of slid quarter-cut Spruce, usually Sitka spruce from Alaska or some form of laminate which is itself usually made of spruce. The Story & Clark probably uses one of these laminates. The model is correct.

Subject: F. Geiger Antique Upright From: Jim To: All Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 09:44:04 (EST) Email Address: Olblackdog@aol.com Message: I want to sell an F. Geiger upright piano (circa 1880). Has anyone ever heard of this brand of piano? I purchased the piano in Germany 25+ years ago and would now like to sell it. It will need serious tuning! Any information would be apreciated.

Subject: Astin Weight input From: DSSR To: All Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:36:35 (EST) Email Address: ds1@jhu.edu Message: I am looking into the Astin Weight. I have spoken with both owners and want to solicit some 'unbiased' opinions. To those who have played and/or tuned them, what do you have to say about the sound, workmanship, serviceability, etc.? All comments requested. TYIA.

Subject: Re: Astin Weight input From: Steve To: DSSR Date Posted: Fri, Nov 19, 1999 at 00:46:39 (EST) Email Address: radmall@infowest.com Message: I haven't ever seen or played an Astin Weight, but my technician tells me that the Astin Weight name is now being used on Korean grand pianos (the uprights are still the real deal). This raises the question: is any brand name safe?

Subject: Re: Astin Weight input From: Bruce To: DSSR Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 13:56:29 (EST) Email Address: peano86381@aol.com Message: I went to Salt Lake City to see them last year to visit the factory. Had a rather unpleasant experience. Email me if you want the details. Bruce

Subject: 1977 Knabe Upright From: Jon Young To: All Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 18:08:35 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Hi Guys I recieved some good information on the 110 year old Knabe grand that I an currently having restored. Now, I have another question. We purchased new a Knabe upright back in 1977 for my wife to play. With the grand coming soon, I will need to sell the upright, it likes like the day we purchased it. Want should I ask for it? Thanks Jon

Subject: Re: 1977 Knabe Upright From: Jon To: Jon Young Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 17:07:42 (EST) Email Address: jonyoung@infowest.com Message: Hi Guys I recieved some good information on the 110 year old Knabe grand that I an currently having restored. Now, I have another question. We purchased new a Knabe upright back in 1977 for my wife to play. With the grand coming soon, I will need to sell the upright, it likes like the day we purchased it. Want should I ask for it? Thanks Jon --- By not recieving a response on the price of this 1977 Knabe, does that mean I should give it away!! help!! Jon

Subject: Re: 1977 Knabe Upright From: John D. To: Jon Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 18:41:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Hi Guys I recieved some good information on the 110 year old Knabe grand that I an currently having restored. Now, I have another question. We purchased new a Knabe upright back in 1977 for my wife to play. With the grand coming soon, I will need to sell the upright, it likes like the day we purchased it. Want should I ask for it? Thanks Jon --- By not recieving a response on the price of this 1977 Knabe, does that mean I should give it away!! help!! Jon --- Jon, Unfortunately no one can access the value of a used instrument without seeing it and knowing market conditions in your area. Your best bet would be to ask your technician how much s/he thinks it is worth. One thing I feel fairly safe saying is that the piano is worth more than $1. How much more is something a tech should be able to tell you. John D.

Subject: beginner needing help From: sharon To: All Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:47:35 (EST) Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com Message: I have always dreamed of having a baby grand piano...I cannot read music and cannot play the piano. But for my 50th birthday, my family is buying me a baby grand piano. I have begun to shop and it is very confusing. What do you recommend as far as a brand of piano for me to buy? I have repeatedly been told to buy a Samick by various salepersons at various stores. Before I began to shop, I had never heard of this brand. What would you recommend? Forever greatful

Subject: Re: beginner needing help From: Niles Duncan To: sharon Date Posted: Tues, Nov 09, 1999 at 03:32:17 (EST) Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com Message: Since you can't read music or play the piano, perhaps another plan would be to rent a piano for a year, get a piano teacher, take piano lessons, and practice diligently. If you discover that you enjoy the piano and are making satisfactory progress at learning to play then have your family get you the grand piano for your 51st birthday. At that point by being able to play somewhat yourself, you would be in a better position to choose a piano that will please you instead of going on someone else's tastes and opinions. If on the other hand you find that the piano doesn't provide the enjoyment that you thought it might they can buy you an excellent stereo system instead. Niles Duncan

Subject: Re: beginner needing help From: Cmul To: sharon Date Posted: Mon, Nov 08, 1999 at 09:47:18 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Both David & CC are on point in their replies. If however, by 'Baby Grand' you simply mean a piano smaller than what you might see in a concert hall, you should consider a piano in the 5'-8' range. Pianos of this size are sometimes classified as 'medium grands' and would have generally better tone and are considered more 'serious instruments.' In the less expensive price range (with some haggling $8000 or so) Wurlitzer, Samick and Young Chaing (Korean NOT Chinese)all make 172/173 (cm) sized pianos. Petrofs, Baldwins etc. would be more money but also better pianos. good luck

Subject: Re: beginner needing help From: David Burton To: sharon Date Posted: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 13:36:25 (EST) Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com Message: Sharon, I read your entry on here very carefully a few times and here's what I have to say about it for what it's worth. 1) Baby grands are in the range of 5'3' or shorter. Some I notice are making 5'4' grands now. You have always dreamed of having a baby grand piano. By 'baby' grand do you mean as short as possible? 2) You cannot read music and cannot play the piano. So do you intend to learn to play or would you prefer the piano to play itself for you? This is not as flip a question as it seems. If you don't intend to play it, you might want a piano equipped with a Pianodisk player. 3) Your family is buying the piano for you as a birthday present. Have they got a budget? Yes shopping for a piano can be confusing if you don't know what you are looking for and what you're looking for might just be a new baby grand outfitted with a Pianodisk player. If so, you want to find the best possible piano-pianodisk combination for the money. If that happens to be a Samick then so be it. Samick is made in South Korea. They are better than they used to be as can be made abit better by a piano tech. But we're talking a baby grand here. Frankly my dear, grand pianos classed as 'baby grand' that is 5'3' or shorter, as has been pointed out on this forum many places by many people, are just not very serious pianos. Does that matter to you? Matter enough to spend lots of money? I doubt it. If you didn't want the Pinaodisk, and you probably DO want one, you'll have to check them out somewhere close by where you live, I'd say just find a good used baby grand and save yourself a lot of money. Of course get a tech to evaluate any used piano you are seriously interested in buying BEFORE you buy it. If I were really looking to buy a true baby grand, I really would have little choice between the Petrof V and the Baldwin M. I might get a ConcertMaster system installed on the Baldwin. If I didn't want a player mechanism on the piano I'd opt for the Petrof which has a different sound than the Baldwin. If I was concerned about furnature more than sound I'd check out the little Chickering baby grands. These are made in Korea now to Baldwin standards. Ifyou don't like the models in eitherof these you can perhaps get a Wurlitzer. They make a couple models of baby grands too including a white one. Baldwin, Chickering and Wurlitzer are linked. Mason & Hamlin which doesn't make a baby grand is linked to Knabe and George Steck. These are like the Samick or like the Chickering, the Wurlitzer, etc. They are all made in Korea and are pretty much the same. There are subtle differences but I dare anyone to find any significant differences between Korean baby grands.

Subject: Re: beginner needing help From: sharon To: David Burton Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 14:36:58 (EST) Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com Message: Davis, I thank you for the advice. I am stil confused. I have room for a larger piano but they get very expensive. I was hoping to stay within the $8 - 10,000 price range. I doesn't sound like Samick gets good reviews in your eyes. I will look into the Baldwin and Petrof. I did consider buying a used piano but I am afraid because of my lack of knowledge. Where can you find a tech to come with you to see used pianos? How much do they usually charge? Also...what do you think of the lacquered white pianos...do they turn yellow? Should I stick to a black lacquar or a white wood piano instead? Part of my goal is to have the piano as a piece of furniture but I don't want it soley for that reason. I really want to take lessons but I don't have any delusions of being a concert pianist. I want to do it soley for my own pleasure and as a means of relaxation and as a hobby. Once again, thank you for your advice. Sharon

Subject: Re: beginner needing help From: CC To: David Burton Date Posted: Sun, Nov 07, 1999 at 15:42:05 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I'd suggest purchasing 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine. It's an excellent source of information about making a piano purchase. Also, if you're looking at a new piano, I'd suggest getting the '1999-2000 Annual Supplement to the Piano Book' by Larry Fine.

Subject: Price for Kawai 604-T From: JohnK To: All Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 09:02:31 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Does anybody have a copy of the 1998-1999 Supplement to Larry Fine's book which would have the 'list' price of the Kawai upright 604-T? Apparantly they don't make this model anymore but the dealer in my area still stocks this model# as opposed to the new 605's. If anybody has purchased this model recently, I would love to know what price they paid. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Price for Kawai 604-T From: Jim DiCaudo To: JohnK Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 17:03:52 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: From the 1997-98 supplement, it lists at $5370.

Subject: Re: Price for Kawai 604-T From: Patti To: Jim DiCaudo Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 13:39:08 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: I paid about $4500 a year ago; nothing close to $5370, and it didn't even involve any negotiation. Actually, I ended up getting the 605 for that price because after they delivered the 604 to my home, I discovered that a leg had been broken and glued back together, which was not disclosed to me. So, I insisted on a replacement and that was the last 604, so they replaced it with the 605. You should have a lot of room for negotiation since they don't make that model anymore & probably want to get them out of the store.

Subject: Piano/Guitar Duet From: DB To: All Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:10:55 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Would like to have recommendations on the approach that should be used with combining music from piano/keyboard with guitar. My objective is to enhance my musical skills in piano playing by being accompanied by another instrument. My first experiment was about 4 months ago with my brother-in-law who lives a long way off. Although we sounded good for most of the song, I discovered where my weak areas were real fast. Brother-in-law has played guitar for about 20 years and I have played piano for about 6 years. I really want to continue this with another person in my area. I believe that it enhances your playing ability beyond playing solo or being briefly accompanied by the piano teacher. I plan to meet with another person next week whose level is about mine or a little less. Plans are to start out with a simple piece written in C, slow tempo and progress to whatever tempo can be achieved. Please provide comments.

Subject: Re: Piano/Guitar Duet From: Andrew To: DB Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:41:43 (EST) Email Address: Andrew.gan@prodigy.net Message: Two piano music can be ideal for you since you have found another pianist who might share the same interest with you. The best music you can find will be in Mozart and Schubert. Both composed substantial amount of two-piano music and music for 4-hands meaning two pianists playing on the same piano. You will find more than enough music that are technically manageable while musically stimulating or challenging. From there on you can progress onto Brahms and Rachmaninov. With these composers the music will be more technically demanding. This is by no means saying that Mozart and Schubert are 'easy'. Have fun and let us know what happens. Andrew

Subject: Yamaha ques.#2 From: Anne To: All Date Posted: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 00:31:34 (EST) Email Address: ravd6545@aol Message: Missed one question on other message posted- Price we are getting on Yamaha P2 and T121, both in poly ebony is $4400. Can we expect to bring price down any?

Subject: Re: Yamaha ques.#2 From: Antonio To: Anne Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 09:06:59 (EST) Email Address: martinez@rica.net Message: Missed one question on other message posted- Price we are getting on Yamaha P2 and T121, both in poly ebony is $4400. Can we expect to bring price down any? --- Why not one of the Japan U3's which seem to be avail for 3500-4000 in A1 condition instead? I am in the same league, so I would like to hear the criteria for going with a T121 instead... regards, A

Subject: Re: Yamaha ques.#2 From: Bruce To: Antonio Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 14:07:05 (EST) Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com Message: Antonio, Used U3's for 3500-4000 in A1 condition, have to be the 'grey' market ones not 'seasoned' for the USA market, so be carefull you get what you pay for. Bruce

Subject: Re: Yamaha ques.#2 From: A To: Bruce Date Posted: Mon, Nov 15, 1999 at 18:06:46 (EST) Email Address: martinez@rica.net Message: I have picked up bits of the 'seasoning' discussion here an there. Is there a FAQ or some other place where I can read the facts? I almost plunked down $3800 for a U3 last Sat, and now I am perhaps glad I did not! The dealer was open in saying that these were indeed Japan market used pianos. However, the dealer appears to be both knowledgeable and reputable, suggesting that perhaps they think otherwise. Help! A

Subject: Re: Yamaha ques.#2 From: Rob S. To: Anne Date Posted: Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 14:40:29 (EST) Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com Message: Anne, I think a question about the T121 (new model) came up a short while back. If so, it's a new model which incorporates much from the previous U1. The current U1 incorporates scale design and other features from the discontinued WX1, and has the Slo-close fallboard (good for kiddies fingers). My copy of Larry Fines Supplement for 1998-99 (a year old) gives $5,890 as the suggested retail for the 45' P2F, which is in Continental Polished Ebony. I don't think this is the same model you are looking at. The newer T121 isn't listed in this supplement. Fine says discounts are the norm from these prices. Keep in mind, size counts, if the T121 is 48' and the P2 is 45', the T121 is better all other things being equal. Price? Several posters state they have paid $4400/$4500 for a U1. I paid $5500 this past January for a U1. If I had known of these other claims I would have pushed for a deeper discount. Of course I don't know that I would have gotten one. I hope this helps. Good luck. Best - Rob S.

Subject: Re: Yamaha ques.#2 From: Chip S. To: Rob S. Date Posted: Sun, Nov 14, 1999 at 19:57:47 (EST) Email Address: syech@pb.com Message: Rob: Could you tell me that the price you paid- $5,500 for a new U1 or the price is for a used one? Thank You for you infor. Chip

Subject: Re: Price of NEW U1 From: Rob S. To: Chip S. Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 12:14:52 (EST) Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com Message: Chip, I paid $5500 for a new 1999 U1 in January. It has the newly incorporated 'Slo-close Fallboard' which is a sure sign it's a 1999 or later model. I had originally been offered a 'new' U1 for $4500, but it turned out to be one that had been used as a practice room piano in a local university for a year. It was badly nicked up, showed condiderable impact wear on the hammers and did not have the 'slo-close fallboard' but was considered 'new' because the warranty had not been registered. I decided to spend more for the current model. Several other posters have claimed to have paid $4400 - $4500 for a new U1. I have no reason to believe this is not true, and the difference may have more to do with competition, or local sales patterns. If you do buy a Yamaha, make sure you get the full benefit of the Yamaha Security Bond warranty (2-3 in home tune ups, etc.) They advertise it, but its up to their dealers. Make sure you know about it, and get it when you buy. (Check Yamaha's web site for details www.yamaha.com). Good luck, Rob

Subject: Re: Price of NEW U1 From: Jeanne To: Rob S. Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 22:03:56 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Concerning the cost of the new U1 (with slo-close fall board etc.), the price I would have had to pay is $5100 (including delivery and two tunings)--for polished ebony. I believe this was a low-end price, because my son's teacher knows the owner of the music store and he worked out the lowest price with him directly. At first he said we could get it for $4900, but I think he raised it a bit because I made the mistake of running into my piano tuner working in the store, so it added a 'middleman'. Also, my understanding is that if you buy in a nearby city in another state (if you can) you can avoid sales tax. I'm not sure if this is legal, but everyone makes it sound like it is. Anyway, I didn't buy the U1 because I got attached to a 50' Petrof, which I got for $5600 (plus tax). I think that was a very good price (tag said $8,500) for the 'Elegance' model with more expensive cabinet trim, because the dealer was not going to carry Petrofs anymore (they were out competed by Steinert piano Co.). Good Luck, Jeanne

Subject: So you got the Petrof! From: Joy To: Jeanne Date Posted: Tues, Nov 16, 1999 at 23:27:36 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Concerning the cost of the new U1 (with slo-close fall board etc.), the price I would have had to pay is $5100 (including delivery and two tunings)--for polished ebony. I believe this was a low-end price, because my son's teacher knows the owner of the music store and he worked out the lowest price with him directly. At first he said we could get it for $4900, but I think he raised it a bit because I made the mistake of running into my piano tuner working in the store, so it added a 'middleman'. Also, my understanding is that if you buy in a nearby city in another state (if you can) you can avoid sales tax. I'm not sure if this is legal, but everyone makes it sound like it is. Anyway, I didn't buy the U1 because I got attached to a 50' Petrof, which I got for $5600 (plus tax). I think that was a very good price (tag said $8,500) for the 'Elegance' model with more expensive cabinet trim, because the dealer was not going to carry Petrofs anymore (they were out competed by Steinert piano Co.). Good Luck, Jeanne --- Congratulations on your new Petrof, Jeanne. It was smart of you to grab it, too. You and your son got a wonderful piano at a nice price. It's pretty too -- I saw it at the Petrof website. May you enjoy it for many years to come.

Subject: Thanks! I got the Petrof! From: Jeanne To: Joy Date Posted: Wed, Nov 17, 1999 at 23:19:29 (EST) Email Address: jbl@ids.net Message: Thanks Joy, and thanks to all who gave their advice on this forum. The piano hasn't been delivered yet, but we are very happy we got the Petrof. I did check out the possibilities for Mason and Hamlin, and just missed a good upright for $3,500, but figured that was unlikely to happen again. We were first drawn to this Petrof because of the sound (over Yamaha or Kawai), but you may remembere I had 'admitted' I felt drawn to the wood trim. After we put the deposit on the piano, I found out this was more important to me than I had realized. The wood looked unusual and I looked it up in my husband's forestry books and found out is black burl walnut, a very expensive wood. Then I realized that this was the same wood that was in a special music box my husband had given me about three years ago. My husband originally was a forester and had really liked this particular kind of wood in the music box, but I didn't register it was the same in the piano until after I bought it. Anyway, the point of all this is that my husband died of cancer about 20 months ago, and whenever I make a big decision I always want to know what his opinion would be. So, it probably sounds silly, but I was very happy to realize he would have really liked this particular one too. So in this case, I guess there is an emotional component to the cabinet, as well as the music! Thanks again for you comments! Jeanne

Subject: Re: Thanks! I got the Petrof! From: Joy To: Jeanne Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 18, 1999 at 12:22:43 (EST) Email Address: Not Provided Message: Jeanne, sounds like you picked the perfect piano for your family. What a bonus that your instrument has musical integrity -- any serious musician would be proud to have a Petrof -- PLUS a touch of enchantment. I'm so happy for you. -- Joy