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Jeanne -:- Schimmel 52', Model 130T -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:34:50 (EST)
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Joy -:- Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:42:23 (EST)
_ Jeanne -:- Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:41:24 (EST)
_ Jeanne -:- Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:36:42 (EST)
__ Mat D. -:- Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:39:53 (EST)
___ jeanne -:- Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 20:49:54 (EST)
____ Jeanne -:- Re: Schimmel 52' versus 50' Petrof -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:54:16 (EST)

sharon -:- beginner needing help -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:47:35 (EST)

Loretta -:- Type of Pianos -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 20:13:30 (EST)

Andrea Carter -:- Knabe grand -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:16:22 (EST)

pianobuyer -:- knabe purchase -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:57:41 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: knabe purchase -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:20:15 (EST)
__ pianobuyer -:- Re: knabe purchase -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 11:13:02 (EST)

ryan -:- Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:25:41 (EDT)
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David Burton -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 02:55:13 (EST)
__ Alex -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:39:22 (EST)
__ ryan -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 12:05:38 (EST)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 17:46:11 (EST)
____ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:36:58 (EST)
____ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 01:25:03 (EST)
_____ David Burton -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 04:52:01 (EST)
_____ ryan -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 09:48:08 (EST)
____ ryan -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 18:20:20 (EST)
_ John D. -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:45:41 (EDT)
__ bobb -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 18:55:27 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 19:19:55 (EDT)
____ Alex -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 17:43:53 (EDT)
_____ Andrew -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 08:05:41 (EST)
____ bobb -:- Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O' -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:09:47 (EDT)

Pianoman -:- Ronisch Upright Piano -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 18:12:42 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Ronisch Upright Piano -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:18:10 (EST)
__ Pianoman -:- Re: Ronisch Upright Piano -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:08:50 (EST)
___ Pianoman -:- Re: Ronisch Upright Piano -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:14:43 (EST)
__ Pianoman -:- Re: Ronisch Upright Piano -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 09:58:49 (EST)

Brian Graham -:- Gulbransen 1951 Spinet -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 00:43:14 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Gulbransen 1951 Spinet -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:11:02 (EST)

Ann -:- Hardman upright -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 23:07:15 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Hardman upright -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:09:13 (EST)

Jamie B -:- My adopted piano -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:52:23 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: My adopted piano -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:03:19 (EST)

Martha Musselman -:- Fischer -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 06:54:10 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Fischer -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:50:33 (EST)

Paul Rochon -:- Piano -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 18:00:15 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Piano -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:44:40 (EST)

Geoff -:- Heintzman Grand -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:26:31 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Heintzman Grand -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:38:15 (EST)

Jeff Brower -:- H.B. Cable & Milton (New York) -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:27:35 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: H.B. Cable & Milton (New York) -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:27:04 (EST)

Michael -:- Mason & Hamlin Uprights...NO MORE! -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 10:36:47 (EST)
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Mat D. -:- Re: Mason & Hamlin Uprights...NO MORE! -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:07:29 (EST)

dan rothenberg -:- mason&hamlin upright -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:44:42 (EST)
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dan rothenberg -:- Re: mason&hamlin upright -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:03:32 (EST)
__ Mat D. -:- Re: mason&hamlin upright -:- Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:03:04 (EST)
_ Joy -:- Re: mason&hamlin upright -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:23:15 (EST)
_ Joy -:- Re: mason&hamlin upright -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:57:48 (EST)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: mason&hamlin upright -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:16:12 (EST)
_ Joy -:- Re: mason&hamlin upright -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 23:11:27 (EST)

Todd -:- Advice on Buying Petrof? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:58:06 (EDT)
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Cork -:- Re: Advice on Buying Petrof? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:54:44 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Advice on Buying Petrof? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:14:06 (EDT)
_ Joy -:- Re: Advice on Buying Petrof? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:32:20 (EDT)
__ Todd -:- Re: Advice on Buying Petrof? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 16:57:58 (EST)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: Advice on Buying Petrof? -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:26:31 (EST)

Kim -:- Petrof Dealers -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 20:21:43 (EST)
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Brenda -:- Re: Petrof Dealers -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:05:47 (EST)
__ Mat D. -:- Re: Petrof Dealers -:- Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:21:58 (EST)

Kim -:- Knabe - Opinion -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 13:08:04 (EDT)
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Mary -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:44:19 (EDT)
_ John -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 06:26:24 (EDT)
__ Cindi -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:07:12 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 12:08:42 (EDT)
__ Kim -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 15:33:41 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:19:03 (EDT)
____ Kim -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 07:59:08 (EDT)
_____ John -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:06:27 (EDT)
______ Kim -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:01:45 (EDT)
_____ Mat D. -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 15:10:53 (EDT)
______ Kim -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 19:37:28 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:23:06 (EDT)
________ Kim -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:14:31 (EDT)
_____ Andrew -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 09:20:49 (EDT)
______ David Burton -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 01:09:01 (EDT)
_______ Kim -:- Re: Knabe - Opinion -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 20:02:10 (EST)

laura -:- UPRIGHT piano help & best buys -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 15:53:27 (EDT)
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laura -:- Thanks everyone! A purchase has been made -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:11:22 (EST)
__ Joy -:- Re: Thanks everyone! A purchase has been made -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 17:22:22 (EST)
_ John D. -:- Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 16:49:08 (EDT)
__ Pianoman -:- Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 18:07:22 (EST)
_ ryan -:- Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 16:37:46 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:32:35 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 00:15:56 (EDT)
____ Joy -:- Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys, and 'scaling' -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:06:52 (EST)
_____ David Burton -:- Re: SCALING -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 06:50:50 (EST)
______ Joy -:- Re: SCALING -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 19:45:32 (EST)

Gary -:- August Forster pianos -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 13:18:37 (EST)
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Andrew -:- Re: August Forster pianos -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 14:12:30 (EST)
__ Mat D. -:- Re: August Forster pianos -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 16:16:38 (EST)

Lorna -:- Heinzman -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 18:44:04 (EST)
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Lorna -:- Re: Heintzman -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 09:33:12 (EST)

Martha Musselman -:- Fischer Piano -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 11:27:22 (EST)
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Niles Duncan -:- Re: Fischer Piano -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:02:51 (EST)

Michael -:- Mason & Hamlin -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:26:19 (EST)
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Mat D. -:- Try:800 566-3472 ext.108...more -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:45:32 (EST)
_ Robert J. -:- Re: Mason & Hamlin -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 11:17:19 (EST)

Chris Wright -:- 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 11:13:55 (EDT)
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Chris Wright -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 14:37:18 (EST)
_ David Burton -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:40:25 (EDT)
__ Chris -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 05:22:29 (EST)
___ Cindi -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 19:24:34 (EST)
____ Chris Wright -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 15:35:45 (EST)
_ Cindi -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:15:38 (EDT)
__ Chris Wright -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 05:06:54 (EST)
_ Andrew -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 13:03:46 (EDT)
__ Chris Wright -:- Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 17:31:47 (EDT)

Sue -:- Bass strings resonating with Middle C -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 08:59:25 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Bass strings resonating with Middle C -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:43:06 (EST)
__ sue -:- Re: Bass strings resonating with Middle C -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 06:05:55 (EST)
___ David Burton -:- Re: being a fast learner etc. -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 11:19:16 (EST)
___ Andrew -:- Re: Bass strings resonating with Middle C -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 10:49:34 (EST)

Lewis -:- Good deal?? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 00:25:55 (EDT)
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Joy -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:42:11 (EDT)
_ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:20:06 (EDT)
__ Andrew -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 13:15:25 (EDT)
__ Tom -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 22:51:08 (EDT)
___ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 03:30:29 (EDT)
____ Tom -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:46:03 (EDT)
_____ Mat D. -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 10:34:44 (EDT)
______ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:42:39 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Niles answer... -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:18:48 (EDT)
_______ Tom -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 22:08:10 (EDT)
______ Tom -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:22:54 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 19:48:47 (EDT)
________ Tom -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:57:50 (EDT)
_________ Mat D. -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:26:24 (EDT)
__________ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:57:04 (EST)
___________ Mat D. -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 09:38:01 (EST)
____ David Burton -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:04:56 (EDT)
_____ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:34:48 (EDT)
______ David Burton -:- Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles. -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 22:16:20 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 06:43:43 (EDT)
_ John Mason -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 06:25:52 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 05:19:23 (EDT)
__ Mat D. -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 23:47:28 (EDT)
__ Lewis -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 23:35:02 (EDT)
___ Andrew -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:07:31 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 10:37:54 (EDT)
____ Andrew -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 13:00:38 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Good deal? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 23:57:14 (EDT)
____ Lewis -:- GOOD DEAL?? -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 05:04:05 (EST)

Eva Lundin -:- Billberg -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:39:35 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Billberg -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 06:10:33 (EST)

Stephen J. Presley -:- McKannon Piano -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 07:06:23 (EDT)
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David Burton -:- Re: McKannon Piano -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:56:37 (EST)
_ Cork -:- Re: McKannon Piano -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:19:44 (EDT)

Dani -:- Hardman, Peck & Co. -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 19:58:12 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Hardman, Peck & Co. -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:38:29 (EST)
_ Cork -:- Re: Hardman, Peck & Co. -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:37:10 (EDT)

Minnie Gator -:- Everett Piano Co. -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 21:19:21 (EDT)
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David Burton -:- Re: Everett Piano Co. -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:18:50 (EST)
_ fletch -:- Re: Everett Piano Co. -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 12:24:25 (EDT)
_ fletch -:- Re: Everett Piano Co. -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 11:57:03 (EDT)

Yaron -:- Alexander Bogs -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 16:22:55 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Alexander Bogs -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:07:25 (EST)

Mike -:- Ludden and Bates -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:44:09 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Ludden and Bates -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 04:52:01 (EST)
_ M&M -:- Re: Ludden and Bates -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 00:14:33 (EDT)

Eric -:- Pleyel pianos -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 20:29:13 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: ERARD -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 04:32:42 (EST)
_ Sue -:- Re: Pleyel pianos -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 06:24:25 (EDT)

Jim Chapman -:- F. Geiger piano info -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:28:43 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: F. Geiger piano info -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 04:04:44 (EST)

StephenP -:- Petrof uprights -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 13:12:49 (EST)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Petrof uprights -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:55:33 (EST)

Karl N -:- Need info Clarendon Uprights -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 15:39:15 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Need info Clarendon Uprights -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:37:48 (EST)

Regi -:- Old Chickering Grand (Opinions) -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 00:48:05 (EST)
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David Burton -:- Re: Old Chickering Grand (Opinions) -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:16:49 (EST)

Curt -:- Replacing my Sohmer Grand -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 23:50:41 (EDT)
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David Burton -:- Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:20:11 (EST)
__ Curt -:- Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 22:20:36 (EST)
_ Andrew -:- Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 09:51:09 (EDT)
__ Andrew -:- Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:23:11 (EDT)
__ Cork -:- Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 10:04:16 (EDT)

Jason -:- Need people's input. Please read and respond. -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 19:58:22 (EDT)
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David Burton -:- Re: Need people's input. Please read and respond. -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 18:35:33 (EST)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Need people's input. Please read and respond. -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 00:12:21 (EDT)

Marian -:- Stultz & Bauer -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 07:52:10 (EST)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Stultz & Bauer -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 17:57:02 (EST)

george r hancock -:- piano -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 22:27:45 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: piano EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 03:22:42 (EST)
__ Andrew -:- Re: piano EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 13:59:49 (EST)
___ Mat D. -:- ditto nt -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 17:56:26 (EST)

sue -:- Piano Tech Thoughts Needed -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 15:57:20 (EST)

sue -:- Piano Tech Thoughts Needed -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 15:57:06 (EST)

C. Simopoulos -:- Meister Piano -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 15:44:53 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Meister Piano -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 02:08:36 (EST)

Phillip Henderson -:- THE Piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:07:21 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:59:38 (EST)
_ Cork -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:58:18 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:19:14 (EDT)
__ Lewis -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:09:27 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 12:23:04 (EDT)
____ ryan -:- By the way... -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 13:54:57 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:27:39 (EDT)
____ Lewis -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 01:34:33 (EDT)
_____ Andrew -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 08:34:36 (EDT)
______ Lewis -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 02:35:26 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 15:23:42 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: THE Piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:58:31 (EDT)

Pat -:- Westermayer baby grand piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 11:02:10 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Westermayer baby grand piano -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:50:29 (EST)

Matt L. -:- Hallet & Davis -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 11:54:30 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Hallet & Davis -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:05:44 (EST)
_ Granholm Bros -:- Re: Hallet & Davis -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:21:00 (EDT)

Sandy -:- Story & Clark pianos -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 12:25:05 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Story & Clark pianos -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:45:23 (EST)

Carolyn -:- Used- N.W. Nelson Piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 11:09:21 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Used- N.W. Nelson Piano -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:27:54 (EST)

Rick -:- Grand Piano:help! -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 21:36:30 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Grand Piano:help! -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:09:48 (EST)

Pierce Keating -:- Yamaha G1R -:- Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:04:40 (EST)

Brent Warren -:- Old Church Piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 21:24:39 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Old Church Piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 23:56:01 (EST)

ghiggins -:- Gossl piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 22:44:15 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Gossl piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 23:45:16 (EST)

Lalia -:- Buy a Weber Piano? -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 15:44:44 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Buy a Weber Piano? -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 23:29:34 (EST)

Joy -:- Finally bought a piano! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:42:48 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 13:32:32 (EST)
__ Joy -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 21:16:11 (EST)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:51:34 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:38:02 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 10:59:05 (EDT)
____ joy -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 14:47:09 (EDT)
_____ Mat D. -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:31:26 (EDT)
______ ryan -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 10:41:46 (EDT)
______ Joy -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:39:08 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: Finally bought a piano! -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:47:50 (EDT)
__ cork -:- Congrats! -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 10:08:24 (EDT)

onesha -:- can anyone help me. -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 20:04:27 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: can anyone help me. -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 15:29:07 (EST)

Brian Littleton -:- I Need Your Help -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 21:03:24 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: I Need Your Help -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 15:16:31 (EST)

Lea -:- The Used Piano Maze -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 00:39:38 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: The Used Piano Maze -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 13:14:32 (EST)
_ John D. -:- Re: The Used Piano Maze -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 17:21:35 (EDT)

Lea -:- Vose & Sons Console -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 21:00:31 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Vose & Sons Console -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 12:52:18 (EST)

CHERYL DAVIDSON -:- DATING A PIANO -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:16:54 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: DATING A PIANO: Check the Piano Atlas -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 12:35:37 (EST)

Ric -:- Baby Grand Piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 10:15:33 (EST)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Baby Grand Piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 12:11:14 (EST)

m. claymore -:- thalberg -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 11:25:10 (EST)
_
David Burton -:- Re: thalberg -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 11:54:44 (EST)

Walt -:- Aeolean Baby Grand -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:27:49 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: Aeolean Baby Grand -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:35:51 (EST)
_ David Burton -:- Re: Aeolean Baby Grand -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:32:30 (EST)
_ Granholm Bros -:- Re: Aeolean Baby Grand -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:00:02 (EDT)

mary pat -:- good deal? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 22:31:21 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: good deal? -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:16:11 (EST)
_ David Burton -:- Re: good deal? -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:16:51 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: good deal? -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:10:29 (EDT)

Kiley Joe Masson -:- Yamaha U1 concerns -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 20:52:40 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Yamaha U1 concerns -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 07:45:57 (EDT)
__ Kiley Joe -:- Re: Yamaha U1 concerns -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:50:18 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Yamaha U1 concerns -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:25:39 (EST)

Sheila -:- Cable -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:11:51 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Cable -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:11:31 (EST)

d. wolney -:- J. Baumbach in Wirn piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 10:49:28 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: J. Baumbach in Wirn piano -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:51:53 (EDT)

Steve Font -:- Chickering -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:59:26 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Chickering -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:23:04 (EDT)

Harry C. -:- Baby Grand as a Surprise -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:33:38 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Baby Grand as a Surprise -:- Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:09:22 (EDT)

Jay Milender -:- Yamaha C Price -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:13:37 (EDT)
_
alvinator -:- Re: Yamaha C Price -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 20:56:15 (EDT)

Paulfxl -:- Information on a Wilfred Player Piano -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 20:33:53 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Information on a Wilfred Player Piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:48:28 (EDT)
__ Paulfxl -:- Re: Information on a Wilfred Player Piano -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 18:06:04 (EDT)

Sue -:- Piano OR Yahamha Clavonova? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:49:16 (EDT)
_
Andrew -:- Re: Piano OR Yahamha Clavonova? -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:58:04 (EDT)

Jerry jjcarp@bright.net.com -:- piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:20:53 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: piano rating -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 07:27:48 (EDT)
_ John D. -:- Re: piano rating -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:08:45 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:13:38 (EDT)
__ D. MacDuff -:- Re: piano rating -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 19:19:03 (EDT)
_ Granholm Bros -:- Re: piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:26:24 (EDT)

Steve Mc -:- 1948 Story and Clark -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:39:55 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: 1948 Story and Clark -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:37:40 (EDT)

p legault -:- quidos -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 05:20:49 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: quidos -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:30:15 (EDT)

Steve M -:- Piano manufactured by Lurch -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:36:39 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Piano manufactured by Lurch -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:23:53 (EDT)

Jerry Carpenter -:- piano rating -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:30:12 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:16:40 (EDT)
__ ryan -:- Re: piano rating -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 10:32:46 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: piano rating -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:49:36 (EDT)
____ ryan -:- Re: piano rating -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 11:02:22 (EDT)
_____ David Burton -:- Re: piano rating -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:37:06 (EDT)
______ ryan -:- Re: piano rating -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:10:44 (EDT)
_______ David Burton -:- Re: piano rating -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 00:25:23 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:43:07 (EDT)
_ John -:- Re: piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 11:07:00 (EDT)
__ ryan -:- Re: piano rating -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 14:26:53 (EDT)
_ ryan -:- Re: piano rating -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:25:01 (EDT)
_ Joy -:- Re: piano rating -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:02:51 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Re: piano rating -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:35:08 (EDT)
___ jerry -:- Re: piano rating -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 17:46:30 (EDT)

Bruce -:- Piano Sales Forum -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:59:56 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Piano Sales Forum -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 04:03:41 (EDT)
__ Bruce Towell -:- Re: Piano Sales Forum -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 22:06:36 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Piano Sales Forum -:- Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 00:02:23 (EDT)

sw barksdale -:- tuning old bechstein -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:42:12 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: tuning old bechstein -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:07:58 (EDT)

John D. -:- Marilyn Monroe's piano... -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:50:57 (EDT)

Alan -:- buzzeeeee -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:18:31 (EDT)

SteveMc -:- 1889 Emerson Piano -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 08:57:57 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: 1889 Emerson Piano -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 05:25:24 (EDT)

Vicci -:- Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 15:54:20 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:18:03 (EDT)
_ Brian Holden -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:19:01 (EDT)
__ Vicci -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:20:18 (EDT)
___ Brian -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 02:37:18 (EDT)
___ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 01:16:35 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:35:34 (EDT)
____ vicci -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 15:31:01 (EDT)
_____ David Burton -:- Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:27:46 (EDT)

Wendy -:- saint seans upright -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:09:01 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: saint seans upright -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 00:10:23 (EDT)

Robyn -:- What Grand for $20-30k? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 22:25:08 (EDT)
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Mat D. -:- Re: What Grand for $20-30k? -:- Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 00:06:30 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: What Grand for $20-30k? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:14:42 (EDT)

Ron R. -:- W.E. WHEELOCK CO. -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 00:46:25 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: W.E. WHEELOCK CO. -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:45:06 (EDT)

virginia -:- upright piano -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 13:22:14 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: upright piano -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:33:32 (EDT)

bluesky -:- tempo -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 12:25:50 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: tempo -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:24:49 (EDT)

Christine -:- Canadian August Forster -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:11:57 (EDT)

Christine -:- Canadian August Forster -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:11:53 (EDT)

daniel -:- Otto bach -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 19:53:38 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Otto bach -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:07:52 (EDT)

Sheila -:- Yamaha G-2 -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:22:46 (EDT)
_
sam lewis piano -:- Re: Yamaha G-2 -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 21:57:19 (EDT)
_ sam lewis piano -:- Re: Yamaha G-2 -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 21:55:40 (EDT)

Bruce -:- Madison Grand -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:46:47 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Madison Grand -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:06:16 (EDT)
__ Bruce -:- Re: Madison Grand -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 10:02:08 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Madison Grand -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:39:00 (EDT)

darrell -:- Krakaver? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 16:03:40 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Krakauer not Krakaver -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:23:01 (EDT)
_ John D. -:- Re: Krakaver? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 16:32:47 (EDT)

Anusha -:- Why? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:31:43 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Why? -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 05:34:05 (EDT)
_ Charlie -:- Re: Why? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:39:11 (EDT)

Sheila -:- Older Yamaha -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 17:46:25 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: Older Yamaha -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 00:45:19 (EDT)

Sinji -:- August Forster -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 13:28:11 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: August Forster -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 00:13:56 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: August Forster -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:20:45 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Re: August Forster -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 23:58:46 (EDT)
___ Christine -:- Re: August Forster -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:29:54 (EDT)
___ Christine -:- Re: August Forster -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:25:31 (EDT)
_ John D. -:- Re: August Forster -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 19:00:48 (EDT)
__ Mat D. -:- Re: August Forster -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 00:07:58 (EDT)

Jim M -:- Palmer Piano Information Request -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 17:00:19 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Palmer Piano Information Request -:- Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 00:13:05 (EDT)

Edward Badescu -:- Old russian piano -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 06:28:27 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Old russian piano -:- Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 02:23:45 (EDT)

Moham -:- Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:36:19 (EDT)
_
Rick -:- Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:19:31 (EDT)
__ CC -:- Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 23:24:59 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:28:36 (EDT)
__ CC -:- Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 00:00:34 (EDT)

Jeanie -:- Yamaha U1 Disklavier -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 22:13:09 (EDT)

Jonathan -:- Piano -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:02:49 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Piano -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:57:34 (EDT)

W. M. Hanley -:- Gulbransen Baby Grand -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:03:02 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:26:44 (EDT)
__ Niles Duncan -:- Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 02:12:29 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:59:07 (EDT)
____ David Burton -:- Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:47:35 (EDT)

Kris -:- How many Black keys are on a piano keyboard? -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:39:52 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: How many Black keys are on a piano keyboard? -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:31:01 (EDT)

Beth -:- Newby and Evans piano co -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:56:40 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Newby and Evans piano co -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:29:04 (EDT)

long -:- Price for 60's Yamaha U1... -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:36:16 (EDT)

Steve Kotula -:- Old Farrand Upright -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 17:14:05 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Old Farrand Upright -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:35:38 (EDT)
_ Granholm Bros -:- Re: Old Farrand Upright -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:27:35 (EDT)

Darryl A -:- Baldwin 226 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 09:47:31 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: Baldwin 226 -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 02:24:32 (EDT)

Gary -:- Considering a Hamilton -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 01:12:04 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Considering a Hamilton -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:47:58 (EDT)
_ Charlie -:- Re: Considering a Hamilton -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:06:55 (EDT)

John Giotto -:- Tack Piano -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:52:01 (EDT)
_
Granholm Bros -:- Re: Tack Piano -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 19:01:14 (EDT)
__ John Giotto -:- Re: Tack Piano -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 23:13:38 (EDT)

Jonathan -:- keys sticking -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:03:50 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: keys sticking -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:58:05 (EDT)

Brian Holden -:- Two Questions -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 03:48:57 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: Two Questions -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:46:53 (EDT)

Alan -:- buzze sound from new piano -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:25:03 (EDT)

long -:- advice please... -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:26:56 (EDT)
_
Andrew -:- Re: advice please... -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:02:03 (EDT)

Roger -:- Silca pacs in piano -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 01:39:56 (EDT)
_
Brian Holden -:- Re: Silca pacs in piano -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:03:23 (EDT)

Steve Blevins -:- Italian Piano -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:49:34 (EDT)
_
Andrew -:- Re: Italian Piano -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:56:49 (EDT)

Tom Butts -:- Young Chang Pramberger -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 19:40:13 (EDT)
_
Kim -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:44:48 (EDT)
__ Tom -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:51:06 (EDT)
___ Kim -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:49:24 (EDT)
_ Robert J. -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 17:50:33 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 21:03:56 (EDT)
__ Andrew -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 09:33:17 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Young Chang Pramberger -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 10:49:18 (EDT)

Pat -:- repairing finishings -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:17:42 (EDT)
_
Granholm Bros -:- Re: repairing finishings -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:47:10 (EDT)

Ed GArdynik -:- piano playing -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:20:37 (EDT)
_
Steve Mc -:- Re: piano playing -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:10:45 (EDT)

Dave B -:- Wurtlizer -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 14:31:25 (EDT)
_
Dave B -:- Re: Wurtlizer -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:44:29 (EDT)
_ dave B -:- Re: Wurtlizer -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:39:24 (EDT)
_ Granholm Bros -:- Re: Wurtlizer -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:21:03 (EDT)

CC -:- Yamaha T116 -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:57:33 (EDT)
_
Rick -:- Re: Yamaha T116 -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:08:02 (EDT)

Becky -:- Yamaha T121 -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 12:24:21 (EDT)
_
Rob S. -:- Re: Yamaha T121 -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 13:01:12 (EDT)
__ Elizabeth -:- Re: Yamaha T121 -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 21:42:48 (EDT)
__ Becky -:- Re: Yamaha T121 -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 13:56:36 (EDT)
___ Rob S. -:- Re: Yamaha T121 -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 14:22:58 (EDT)
___ Murray -:- Re: Yamaha T121 -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 11:25:31 (EDT)
____ CC -:- Re: Yamaha T121 -:- Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 23:01:47 (EDT)

Steve M -:- Piano Purchase -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 12:06:10 (EDT)
_
John D. -:- Re: Piano Purchase -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 19:13:47 (EDT)
__ Granholm Bros -:- Re: Piano Purchase -:- Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:42:04 (EDT)

Mich -:- Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 15:11:32 (EDT)
_
Mat D. -:- Re: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:24:24 (EDT)
_ ryan -:- Re: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 11:04:11 (EDT)
_ Bruce -:- Re: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 21:09:46 (EDT)

Christi -:- What to use to clean my piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 18:31:37 (EDT)
_
sam lewis piano -:- Re: What to use to clean my piano -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:35:39 (EDT)
_ Granholm Bros -:- Re: What to use to clean my piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 21:32:32 (EDT)
__ Christi -:- Re: What to use to clean my piano -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 09:49:06 (EDT)
___ Granholm Bros -:- Re: What to use to clean my piano -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 21:05:13 (EDT)

John Mason -:- Why Ebony Finish -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 12:24:24 (EDT)
_
Sam Lewis Piano -:- Re: Why Ebony Finish -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:43:46 (EDT)
__ Charlie -:- Re: Why Ebony Finish -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 18:08:29 (EDT)
_ Charlie -:- Re: Why Ebony Finish -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 17:40:14 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Why Ebony Finish -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 15:28:24 (EDT)
_ D. MacDuff -:- Re: Why Ebony Finish -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 14:40:03 (EDT)

Donna -:- Young Chang piano -:- Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 15:00:10 (EDT)

John D. -:- Recording a piano -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 13:41:39 (EDT)
_
Mat D. -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 15:34:54 (EDT)
__ Hakki -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 16:07:37 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 23:25:07 (EDT)
____ Hakki -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 11:23:07 (EDT)
_____ Mat D. -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 18:24:24 (EDT)
__ Cork -:- May I ask a question? -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 22:22:32 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: May I ask a question? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:41:28 (EDT)
____ John D. -:- Re: May I ask a question? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:01:48 (EDT)
_____ Mat D. -:- Budget set-up answer -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:42:33 (EDT)
______ John D. -:- Re: Budget set-up answer -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 14:55:35 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Re: Budget set-up answer -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 23:31:29 (EDT)
_____ Cork -:- John -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:44:21 (EDT)
______ John D. -:- Re: John -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:40:30 (EDT)
____ Cork -:- Re: May I ask a question? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 09:54:14 (EDT)
_____ Mat D. -:- Re: May I ask a question? -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:56:13 (EDT)
______ Cork -:- Mixer Specs -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:54:10 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Re: Mixer Specs -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:59:23 (EDT)
________ Cork -:- Re: Mixer Specs -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 10:30:22 (EDT)
_________ Mat D. -:- ,,old mics/power amp -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 12:50:10 (EDT)
______ Cork -:- Additional thoughts . . . -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:56:34 (EDT)
_______ Mat D. -:- Re: Additional thoughts . . . -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:52:58 (EDT)
__ John D. -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 16:14:22 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: Recording a piano -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:46:48 (EDT)

Kim -:- Knabe - Opinions -:- Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 13:03:11 (EDT)

Rae -:- 5'10' Boston vs Kawai -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 17:08:18 (EDT)
_
Bruce -:- Re: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 21:27:39 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 11:41:00 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 08:08:11 (EDT)

Citylex -:- Piano Practise Elapsed Time indicator -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:56:09 (EDT)

Alex Tay -:- Contact Microphone for Piano?? -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:49:35 (EDT)

Frank -:- strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 02:36:02 (EDT)
_
Mat D. -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 22:55:05 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 17:35:01 (EDT)
__ Frank -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 01:29:07 (EDT)
_ Robert J. -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 15:33:07 (EDT)
_ Charlie -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 13:57:35 (EDT)
__ John D. -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 14:48:51 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: strange noise from baby grand -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 08:39:47 (EDT)

AlexTay -:- Frequent-Played keys -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 10:00:07 (EDT)
_
Mat D. -:- Re: Frequent-Played keys -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 23:46:47 (EDT)

Brian Holden -:- Temperament -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:02:45 (EDT)
_
Granholm Bros -:- Re: Temperament -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 21:14:00 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Temperament -:- Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 16:30:14 (EDT)

Tom -:- Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 16:04:36 (EDT)
_
Tom -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 22:25:52 (EDT)
__ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 11:54:13 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:36:58 (EDT)
___ Tom -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:33:50 (EDT)
____ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 13:29:19 (EDT)
_____ Tom -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:13:54 (EDT)
______ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 10:35:10 (EDT)
_ Tom -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 12:40:38 (EDT)
__ Tom -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 12:43:37 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 15:35:10 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 14:56:22 (EDT)
_ ryan -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:35:30 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:46:19 (EDT)

John D. -:- Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:31:07 (EDT)
_
Joy -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:16:13 (EDT)
__ John D. -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:15:08 (EDT)
___ bobb -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:06:50 (EDT)
____ John D. -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:15:34 (EDT)
_____ Cork -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 13:22:35 (EDT)
_____ ryan -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:26:40 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha: -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:41:48 (EDT)

David L. -:- Rosler Piano -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 14:33:07 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Rosler Piano -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:51:29 (EDT)
__ David L. -:- Re: Rosler Piano -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 18:04:47 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: Rosler Piano -:- Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 11:36:50 (EDT)

Roger -:- Kohler & Campbell string buzz -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 21:16:17 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Kohler & Campbell string buzz -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:55:48 (EDT)
__ Roger -:- Re: Kohler & Campbell string buzz -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 21:39:23 (EDT)

Sandy -:- Boston Grands -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 23:04:33 (EDT)
_
Eric -:- Re: Boston Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 12:59:02 (EDT)
__ ryan -:- A question... -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 17:35:45 (EDT)
_ ryan -:- Re: Boston Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:25:26 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Boston Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:30:50 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Boston Grands -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 00:06:20 (EDT)

teache42 -:- piano keys -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 21:23:30 (EDT)
_
D. MacDuff -:- Re: piano keys -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 16:45:48 (EDT)
_ Jason -:- Re: piano keys -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 20:07:54 (EDT)

Joel -:- Schiedmayeror Steingraber grand piano -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:49:34 (EDT)
_
ryan -:- Steingraber is still in business... -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:59:25 (EDT)
__ David Burton -:- Re: Steingraber is still in business... -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:18:49 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- I take it back! -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 10:15:39 (EDT)
___ BEN -:- Re: Steingraber is still in business... -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:59:34 (EDT)
____ D. MacDuff -:- Sweaty Flying Fingers -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 18:03:07 (EDT)
_____ BEN -:- Re: Sweaty Flying Fingers -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 08:44:42 (EDT)

Phillip Henderson -:- Steinway Grand-model B -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 23:51:27 (EDT)
_
Andrew -:- Re: Steinway Grand-model B -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:26:03 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Steinway Grand-model B -:- Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 00:20:40 (EDT)

Roxanne -:- Questions about Lester Pianos -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:10:32 (EDT)
_
Granholm Bros -:- Re: Questions about Lester Pianos -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:42:11 (EDT)
__ BEN -:- Re: GRANHOLM -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 09:35:40 (EDT)

Phillip Henderson -:- Buying a Grand -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 07:56:31 (EDT)
_
Andrew -:- Re: Buying a Grand -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:45:56 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Buying a Grand -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:35:55 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: Buying a Grand -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 08:14:26 (EDT)
__ David Burton -:- Re: Buying a Grand -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:23:39 (EDT)
___ BEN -:- Re: Buying a Grand -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 05:06:46 (EDT)

Phillip Henderson -:- Baldwin SF10 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:05:50 (EDT)
_
t D> -:- Re: Baldwin SF10 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:01:23 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Baldwin SF10 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 16:34:38 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: Baldwin SF10 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:24:52 (EDT)
__ David Burton -:- Re: Baldwin SF10 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:49:16 (EDT)

L Misko -:- Haines Bros. Grand Piano -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 18:35:46 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Haines Bros. Grand Piano -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:16:41 (EDT)

CC -:- Yamaha studios--help! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:15:47 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Yamaha studios--help! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 16:39:32 (EDT)
__ CC -:- Re: Yamaha studios--help! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 18:15:54 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: Yamaha studios--help! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:21:59 (EDT)

Suchismit Chakravorty -:- The Baldwin Continental E 100 -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:30 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: The Baldwin Continental E 100 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:41:37 (EDT)
__ Suchismit -:- Re: The Baldwin Continental E 100 -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:35:49 (EDT)
_ Suchismit Chakravorty -:- Any comments on the above, please ?? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:44:35 (EDT)

eric -:- low vs high tension -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:47:37 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: low vs high tension -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:10:58 (EDT)
__ Lewis -:- Re: low vs high tension -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:25:02 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: low vs high tension -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:30:24 (EDT)

Steve Tannehill -:- Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:09:48 (EDT)
_
Tim -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:40:56 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:55:21 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:40:53 (EDT)
__ Cork -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:35:50 (EDT)
___ D. MacDuff -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:35:04 (EDT)
___ John D. -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:03:30 (EDT)
____ BEN -:- Re: Piano Finishes -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:36:53 (EDT)

Joel -:- Shiedmayer and/or Steingraber pianos -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:20:15 (EDT)

Sil Orlando -:- Lindsay Baby Grand -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 19:22:08 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Lindsay Baby Grand -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:35:17 (EDT)

jim -:- petrof-vs yamaha -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:05:06 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: petrof-vs yamaha -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:11:27 (EDT)
__ JIM -:- Re: petrof-vs yamaha -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 12:18:45 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: petrof-vs yamaha -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:11:20 (EDT)
__ Paul -:- Re: petrof-vs yamaha -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:22:02 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: petrof-vs yamaha -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:30:18 (EDT)

Joy -:- Radial-back Yamaha uprights -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 22:24:30 (EDT)

Jason -:- Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 21:18:07 (EDT)
_
Suchismit Chakravorty -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 16:52:27 (EDT)
_ Charlie -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 20:52:46 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:45:05 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 19:39:12 (EDT)
__ Jason -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:47:50 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:39:23 (EDT)
__ Jason -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 12:49:47 (EDT)
___ David Burton -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:10:35 (EDT)
_ Eric -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 00:13:33 (EDT)
__ Andrew -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 19:33:22 (EDT)
___ Jason -:- Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:50:45 (EDT)

mink -:- new piano -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:04:38 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: new piano -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:33:23 (EDT)
__ David Burton -:- Re: new French piano -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 09:09:20 (EDT)
___ Niles Duncan -:- Re: new French piano -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:34:21 (EDT)
____ mink -:- Re: new French piano -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 13:22:57 (EDT)
___ BEN -:- Re: new French piano -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 01:37:43 (EDT)
___ mink -:- Re: new French piano -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 12:27:36 (EDT)
____ David Burton -:- Re: new French piano -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EDT)
____ Andrew -:- Re: new French piano -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 19:55:08 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: new piano -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:31:07 (EDT)

StephenP -:- Anyone heard of Kawai BS-2N? -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 09:32:48 (EDT)

carolyn -:- another request for purch info -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 00:27:12 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: another request for purch info -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 04:17:42 (EDT)
__ Joy -:- Re: another request for purch info -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:05:09 (EDT)
___ Andrew -:- Re: another request for purch info -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 06:36:41 (EDT)
_ Ben -:- Re: another request for purch info -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 01:50:34 (EDT)

Liz -:- used pianos -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 18:46:19 (EDT)
_
Niles Duncan -:- Re: used pianos -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:46:05 (EDT)
__ Andrew -:- Re: used pianos -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 06:24:47 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: used pianos -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:52:31 (EDT)
_ Andrew -:- Re: used pianos -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 19:19:36 (EDT)

Sam -:- Yamaha Console 1988 for $3300? -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 22:13:48 (EDT)
_
Bruce -:- Re: Yamaha Console 1988 for $3300? -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 00:19:49 (EDT)

Ben -:- Suggestions.. -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:53:13 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Suggestions.. -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:57:12 (EDT)

Lewis -:- Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 06:20:49 (EDT)
_
Charlie -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:51:52 (EDT)
__ Lewis -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:03:22 (EDT)
_ D. MacDuff -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:57:14 (EDT)
__ Lewis -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:05:46 (EDT)
___ Cork -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 09:50:38 (EDT)
____ Lewis -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 06:48:09 (EDT)
_____ Cork -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 09:15:19 (EDT)
______ Peter -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 02:57:39 (EDT)
_______ Cork -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:26:18 (EDT)
________ David Burton -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 19:33:52 (EDT)
________ Peter Bluhon -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:45:34 (EDT)
_________ bobb -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 02:11:51 (EDT)
______ Lewis -:- Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 05:08:06 (EDT)
_______ Cork -:- Re: Grand action vs. Upright action -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 09:37:50 (EDT)
________ Steve Tannehill -:- What about the RX1? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 19:18:24 (EDT)
_________ Ben -:- Re: What about the RX1? -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:47:33 (EDT)
________ bobb -:- Re: Grand action vs. Upright action -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 19:49:13 (EDT)
_________ Charlie -:- Re: Grand action vs. Upright action -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 20:47:59 (EDT)
__________ bobb -:- Re: Grand action vs. Upright action -:- Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 22:49:57 (EDT)
___________ Joy -:- Re:Piano study at UMich -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 14:36:36 (EDT)
____________ bobb -:- Re: Re:Piano study at UMich -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 21:20:08 (EDT)
_____________ Joy -:- Re: Re:Piano study at UMich -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 13:50:24 (EDT)
___________ Cork -:- Re: Petrof V -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 14:25:44 (EDT)
____________ jim -:- Re: Petrof V -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:10:11 (EDT)
_____________ Cork -:- Re: Petrof V -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:14:24 (EDT)
_____________ Joy -:- Re: Petrof V -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 04:40:00 (EDT)
______________ JIM -:- Re: Petrof V -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 12:15:54 (EDT)
___________ Lewis -:- Re: Grand action vs. Upright action -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 05:25:44 (EDT)
____________ Rob S. -:- Re: Bravo Cork -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 10:21:04 (EDT)
_____________ Cork -:- Re: Bravo Cork -:- Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 14:32:42 (EDT)

Jay Milender -:- Samick vs. Kawai -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:55:31 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: Samick vs. Kawai -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:24:34 (EDT)
__ Andrew -:- Re: Samick vs. Kawai -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 10:22:07 (EDT)
_ Blair -:- Re: Samick vs. Kawai -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:27:06 (EDT)
_ Charlie -:- Re: Samick vs. Kawai -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:42:12 (EDT)
_ ryan -:- Re: Samick vs. Kawai -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:17:46 (EDT)
__ Ben -:- Re: Samick vs. Kawai -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:59:24 (EDT)

Margot -:- Steinway K - 1924 -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:40:51 (EDT)
_
David Burton -:- Re: Steinway K - 1924 -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 14:25:59 (EDT)
__ margot -:- Re: Steinway K - 1924 -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 09:40:45 (EDT)
__ margot -:- Re: Steinway K - 1924 -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 09:37:57 (EDT)

Cork -:- First Draft: Value of Used Pianos -:- Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:09:09 (EDT)
_
Granholm Bros -:- Re: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:32:28 (EDT)
__ Cork -:- Re: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 09:25:05 (EDT)
___ Mat D. -:- Re: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:24:40 (EDT)
___ Rob S. -:- Re: First Draft: My 2¢... -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:32:55 (EDT)
____ Cork -:- Re: First Draft: My 2¢... -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:29:46 (EDT)

David Burton -:- A Pianist's Diary -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 09:19:58 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: A Pianist's Diary -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:21:15 (EDT)

Johnny -:- 1954 Baldwin -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:52:22 (EDT)
_
Cork -:- Re: 1954 Baldwin -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:19:35 (EDT)

Kathy -:- Player Piano Trivia/History Question -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:55:19 (EDT)
_
D. MacDuff -:- Re: Player Piano Trivia/History Question -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 14:15:23 (EDT)
__ D. MacDuff -:- OOOPS ... -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:48:00 (EDT)

kelly -:- memorize or not? -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 09:48:06 (EDT)
_
Almon -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:12:08 (EDT)
_ kelly -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:58:27 (EDT)
_ Mat D. -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:11:48 (EDT)
_ Cork -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:48:58 (EDT)
__ ryan -:- Agree -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 12:21:06 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 03:40:06 (EDT)
__ bobb -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 15:59:54 (EDT)
___ ryan -:- Re: memorize or not? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:35:36 (EDT)
_ D. MacDuff -:- I'm curious as to opinions on this, also. -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 16:36:37 (EDT)
__ Ryan -:- One opinion.. -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 18:19:50 (EDT)
___ Danika -:- Re: One opinion.. -:- Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 18:38:10 (EDT)

Christi -:- 1977 Steinway -:- Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 17:55:30 (EDT)
_
Andrew -:- Re: 1977 Steinway -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 08:43:01 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: 1977 Steinway -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:10:19 (EDT)
__ Christi -:- Re: 1977 Steinway -:- Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:22:10 (EDT)
_ David Burton -:- Re: A Survey for all piano players -:- Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 23:14:34 (EDT)


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Subject: Schimmel 52', Model 130T
From: Jeanne
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:34:50 (EST)
Email Address: jbl@ids.net

Message:
I appreciate all the good information in this forum. I would like any opinions on a Schimmel 52' upright piano. I have located one used which is 5 years old, one owner, who had it appraised at $9500. The person has to move by November 15 and wants $5000 for the piano, which he says is essentially new and sounds wonderful. I have not yet seen the piano because it is 11/2 hours from my home, so I would like any feedback on whether this sounds like a good opportunity. Taking your advise, I would have it independently evaluated by a technician, and will go and listen carefully to the tone etc. But our other choice is to buy a new U1 Yamaha, which would have a warranty and be delivered, tuned etc., for slightly less money. The reason I am considering going out of my way for the Schimmel is that I thought from my reading it might be significantly better muscially, in terms of tone. Any opinions? Thanks. Jeanne

Subject: Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T
From: Joy
To: Jeanne
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:42:23 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I appreciate all the good information in this forum. I would like any opinions on a Schimmel 52' upright piano. I have located one used which is 5 years old, one owner, who had it appraised at $9500. The person has to move by November 15 and wants $5000 for the piano, which he says is essentially new and sounds wonderful. I have not yet seen the piano because it is 11/2 hours from my home, so I would like any feedback on whether this sounds like a good opportunity. Taking your advise, I would have it independently evaluated by a technician, and will go and listen carefully to the tone etc. But our other choice is to buy a new U1 Yamaha, which would have a warranty and be delivered, tuned etc., for slightly less money. The reason I am considering going out of my way for the Schimmel is that I thought from my reading it might be significantly better muscially, in terms of tone. Any opinions? Thanks. Jeanne
---
That is a very good price. Schimmels are fine quality instruments. No comparison with the U-1 (we saw so many of them when my son and I went upright shopping, we called it Ubiquitous-1, same old same old 'bright' asian sound) in terms of quality of sound (very warm) and craftsmanship. Has full Renner action, too. Have a technician check it out first. I don't think you'll find anything new that's comparable at that price. In our neighborhood, a brand-new 52' Petrof with full Renner action costs about $6-7k. On top of that, it'll need $200-300 worth of prep when you get it home.

Subject: Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T
From: Jeanne
To: Jeanne
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:41:24 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Addendum: I made a mistake in typing- the asking price is not $5000, but $6,000. I maybe can get it for a bit less, but not much less. He said they sell for $12,000 new. I haven't yet found any Schimmel piano dealers less than 11/2 hours away.

Subject: Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T
From: Jeanne
To: Jeanne
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 14:36:42 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:

Subject: Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T
From: Mat D.
To: Jeanne
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 15:39:53 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Jeanne, I would follow up on this one (with your technician of course). Schimmel makes a fine piano and the $12k list price is probably about right. I pesonally would prefer the Schimmel over the Yamaha; I used to own a small Schimmel grand made in 1952 and when I traded it in last year, I still got about $10k for it. The workmanship & finish is first class on a Schimmel and generally they have a very nice long sustain. Let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Schimmel 52', Model 130T
From: jeanne
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 20:49:54 (EST)
Email Address: jbl@ids.net

Message:

Subject: Re: Schimmel 52' versus 50' Petrof
From: Jeanne
To: Matt D:
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:54:16 (EST)
Email Address: jbl@ids.net

Message:
Thanks for your quick and helpful responses, and sorry for the blank messages I sent by mistake. I realize the Schimmel is a good opportunity, but now I am seriously considering a new Petrof. My son and I went out to look at other new pianos in the area today. We didn't see any Shimmel dealer, but we saw a 50' (126) Petrof that my son (and I) really loved. We compared it to a Kawai and a used U1 Yamaha in the same store, and understood then the difference in tone that has been referred to so often on this forum. We much preferred the sound of the Petrof to the Japanese pianos, which sounded more 'metallic' to us in comparison. The salesman seemed to have a genuine enthusiasm for this specific Petrof over, as he put it, over all the other uprights in the store, and almost all of the grands. The model was the 'elegance' version then had nice-looking walnut trim on the front and the legs, against a polished ebony background. Beautiful. The price I could negotiate was $5,800, which I think is a good price. He said that they could go lower than other places because they were not restricted by a 'minimum' price, because they were not going to sell Petrofs in the future. When I asked him why not (since he seemed to love it so much), he said that they hadn't had sufficient demand for them, that most people want little cheap consoles. So now it seems there are two good choices at about the same price
---
-the new Petrof (which we loved) or the used Schimmel (which we haven't seen yet). Given that the distance to go see it is pretty far, I am leaning towards just saying 'yes' to this Petrof. Once it is gone, they will get no more in, and he said the price was loweer because of that. He said that they would tune the piano in our home on delivery and after 90 days. Said the technician was the president of the technician society (or something like that) in our area
---
he said the best. But honestly, to our probably insensitive ears, the 'voice' of the piano sounded lovely. So, do you think it's a mistake to pass up travelling to look at a used Schimmel and buying the new Petrof instead? Without having read this forum, I would not have know enough to even look at the Petrof, so you have already helped substantially. Jeanne

Subject: beginner needing help
From: sharon
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 21:47:35 (EST)
Email Address: sferrante1@aol.com

Message:
I have always dreamed of having a baby grand piano...I cannot read music and cannot play the piano. But for my 50th birthday, my family is buying me a baby grand piano. I have begun to shop and it is very confusing. What do you recommend as far as a brand of piano for me to buy? I have repeatedly been told to buy a Samick by various salepersons at various stores. Before I began to shop, I had never heard of this brand. What would you recommend? Forever greatful

Subject: Type of Pianos
From: Loretta
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 20:13:30 (EST)
Email Address: Lore95@aol.com

Message:
Has anybody heard of a Beele piano? I think it is made in Australia? Any information would be appreciated.

Subject: Knabe grand
From: Andrea Carter
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 19:16:22 (EST)
Email Address: andrea@meyerassociates.com

Message:
I have a 1872 Knabe square grand in excellent condition. Needs to be retuned. All original except for a small portion of the sound board which we had reconstructed about 20 years ago. I am interested in selling. What would be a reasonable and realistic price to ask.

Subject: knabe purchase
From: pianobuyer
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 00:57:41 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am purchasing a 1960 Knabe console piano from a private individual. It's the original owner who is selling, and piano is in excellent shape, both in and out. She is asking $2500 for it. Is this reasonable?

Subject: Re: knabe purchase
From: David Burton
To: pianobuyer
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:20:15 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I am purchasing a 1960 Knabe console piano from a private individual. It's the original owner who is selling, and piano is in excellent shape, both in and out. She is asking $2500 for it. Is this reasonable?
---
Yeah probably but, Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Re: knabe purchase
From: pianobuyer
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 11:13:02 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have tentatively organized a piano tech to come look at it. Glad to know the price is in the ballpark ( assuming it checks out O.K.) , before I go to all the trouble. Thanks for your input.

Subject: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: ryan
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:25:41 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I played a rebuilt 1909 Steinway model 'O' the other evening. It had been rebuiltin the last five years, with a new pinblock, new pins, new strings, many new action parts, and new key covers. The sound was very 'Steinway', and sounded great. However, I felt that the action was loose and sloppy. Also, some of the higher notes had more of a 'thunk' than a bell like tone. To compare, I walked over to a brand new Sauter 185 and the difference in feel was night and day. The action in the Sauter was 'tight' in a good way, e.g. solid, accurate, consistent, and very touch sensitive. The tone of the Sauter just blew away the old Steinway as well. Is this common in rebuilt pianos, or did I just find one that had a bad rebuild job? It was supposedly rebuilt by the authority on Steinways in the area. I have played other rebuilt pianos that just feel, well, old. It's probably unrealistic to expect an old piano to feel brand new. I know that some of you guys really champion rebuilding old pianos, and I wondered what your thoughts are on this subject. Thanks, Ryan

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 02:55:13 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I am NOT a piano rebuilder ok? But I have made it my business to find out about them because I'm terribly interested in it and in fine pianos. Question for the class: what would it take to make a 1909 Steinway O sound 'old' even after being 'rebuilt'? Hint, it has something to do with crown and downbearing. Alex comes forth with a glowing report on the rebuild of his 1911 Model A. Yeah and for $15K he should have a new soundboard in that puppy. If not, well I just won't say it, ok? A real 'rebuild' rather than a 'refurbishment' implies that the piano is taken completely apart, including removal of the soundboard. The crown and downbearing properties of an old soundboard can be restored up to a point seemingly known by very few rebuilders. It seems to me that more of them ought to take the trouble to find out how its done and do it before calling their product a rebuild. A lot of rebuilders wont bother with anything but a Steinway but in my experience I've run across as many sloppy old rebuilt Steinways as fabulous rebuilt ones and actually more successful rebuilds of pianos other than Steinway. Go figure. So there's a lot of ego and pigheadedness to contend with sometimes. Fact is some rebuilders don't even know how to properly string a piano without getting kinks and bends in the wires. I've run across so called rebuilds that break my heart because the pinblock was not replaced or replaced so badly that the piano was literally spoiled. Yeah and most of these were old Steinways too. I've run into these in people's homes where they wanted to show me their pride and joy. How do I tell them that there's no way their piano will ever hold a tuning properly? How do I tell them that their piano is dead on rebuilt arrival because certain things were not done? Then there's the actions. Oh my God! Some rebuilders use terrible cheap parts that do not belong anywhere near a Steinway and instead of replacing all the same parts with Steinway or better, they just do a spot job so the regulation is never going to work. Replacing the whole stack? No, not necessarily, but partially restoring broken or worn Steinway parts with inferior parts is an awful practice. Who does this? Sorry, mum's the word. Some customers know that they've been taken but figure that $5K was enough and they have to live with what was done to their prized piano. After all it's still a Steinway. Yeah. Well Steinway O's are real nice when done well. There aren't that many of them around. It was a great size. There's simply no excuse for a rebuilt Steinway not to be as good as a brand new one if not better. The only thing I hope for is that the pigheads; those that think they can't work on anything but Steinways and still can't rebuild them properly, and incompetents; those who use shoddy parts or don't do the whole job and still dare to charge what they do, in this business go find something better to do than ruin irreplaceable old masterpieces with their sloppy and shoddy work!!! Ladies and gentlemen, if a rebuild doesn't play and sound new, it isn't.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: Alex
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:39:22 (EST)
Email Address: mozart@virtualtradelink.com

Message:
For the record, everything new except case (refinished, of course), plate and keys. In my view, this is a new piano - looks like one, plays like one, sounds like one - for less than half the price new. Can't agree more that there are lots of brands deserving of being rebuilt - not just Steinway. In fact, one of the absolute best rebuilt pianos I have ever played was a rebuilt 1920's Baldwin -- about a 5'7' or so. I hate to admit it, but this piano put my piano and everything in the store 7' and under to shame. That included rebuilt Steinways, new Petrofs and new Mason and Hamlins. Once again, with the right rebuilder, you can clearly get the most value for your dollar with a rebuilt piano from the golden age. And, if completely rebuilt (soundboard included), you are getting for all intents and purposes a new piano at half the cost.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: ryan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 12:05:38 (EST)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
This Steinway 'O' didn't really sound old, it felt old. The sound was pretty good, except the highest notes had more 'thunk' than I would like. I think the hammers are not striking these strings at the right location. Other than that, the tone is very round, rich and beautiful, and might sound better than some newer small Steinway's that I have played. I went back and looked at this piano again, and I think I have found part of the reason this pianos feels old. The keys have a slightly bigger gap between them than new pianos. The keys seem to have a bit of side-to-side slop that makes them feel less than stable. Also, the ivories were replaced with a plastic that feels terrible, and is now starting to bubble in a few places. I think the rebuilder should have replaced all of the keys along with the action, but the former buyer may have balked at the additional cost. The piano was also refinished, but the finish is starting to crack. I think that with a new set of keys this would be a very good piano.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 17:46:11 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Ryan follows up my considered rant by clarifying his impressions of a rebuilt old Steinway O, 'This Steinway 'O' didn't really sound old, it felt old. The sound was pretty good, except the highest notes had more 'thunk' than I would like. I think the hammers are not striking these strings at the right location.' So from this and from what follows we might consider that since this piano didn't 'sound' old then the soundboard was at least not dead, but that there are problems with the action. Ryan continues, 'Other than that, the tone is very round, rich and beautiful, and might sound better than some newer small Steinway's that I have played.' OK. He continues, 'I went back and looked at this piano again, and I think I have found part of the reason this piano feels old. The keys have a slightly bigger gap between them than new pianos. The keys seem to have a bit of side-to-side slop that makes them feel less than stable. Also, the ivories were replaced with a plastic that feels terrible, and is now starting to bubble in a few places. I think the rebuilder should have replaced all of the keys along with the action, but the former buyer may have balked at the additional cost. The piano was also refinished, but the finish is starting to crack. I think that with a new set of keys this would be a very good piano.' Maybe but since this work was incompetently done you do not have the assurance that more harm might have been done to this piano elsewhere. I have seen things like this. This case reminds me of an old Knabe I know of that got badly rebuilt. A Steinway 'A' I know of ended up like this too, what a shame!! When replacing an action stack measurements must be taken, there can't be any guessing, one can't just replace an old stack with a newer one of a different size. Another matter concerns the compass of the keys. Check out any piano with a tape measure. Measure an octave and you will notice minute changes from one piano to another. Normal compass is around six and a half inches often a millimeter or two less and these minute distances matter. My guess is that if you see large gaps between keys that some attempt to rebuild the keybed was done to line it up with the action stack and the string scale above it. But this is only a guess, there might be another explanation. Wobbling keys or inaccurate attack can also be the result of notorious cheap action parts that some rebuilders insist on using in order to increase their profit margins. Tsk, tsk! In any case it is obvious that this piano has been ruined and will probably never be the same. I can't imagine how the pinblock may have been done if the action, keyboard and refinishing came out this badly. I'd be curious what the dealer expects to get for this piano, you can send me an e-mail off the forum, no need to take it up further here. This is not meant to embarrass anyone in particular, only to be instructive and informative. But this is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about in my previous post. Thank-you Ryan for going back and checking it out for us.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: Niles Duncan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:36:58 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
I really want to know about these cheap action parts that David has been referring to. When rebuilding a Steinway I know of only four makers of action parts, and none of them are cheap. The price differences between the most and least expensive wouldn't make any significant difference in my costs. These are 1) Steinway parts, 2) Renner parts, 3) Tokiwa parts, and 4) a new line of action parts made by Abel for the Amercan rebuilder Wally Brooks. At current pricing the Steinway parts are the most expensive and the Renner the least expensive. For a complete set of hammers, shanks and flanges, and whippens the price spread (wholesale) is only about $170. I don't know of any other makers of action parts for these pianos, and I don't think there are any quality issues with any of these makers. There are other makers for hammers, but not that I know of for the other action parts. Is there someone else cheap that I don't know about? On my pianos I've been using mainly the Tokiwa parts for the last six years and have been very happy with them. I particularly like them for their light weight, and I like the sound from their hammers. The only drawback to these parts is I have to explain why I don't use either Renner or Steinway, and that they are made in Japan. This creates an image issue with customers until they actually sit down and play the piano. Once they do and like the sound and feel they don't care anymore. On my last Steinway, an 1898 B I tried the new Brooks/Abel parts hammers, shanks and flanges, and whippens and was very pleased with the result. The quality was excellent and the action weight and feel was on target without having to lighten parts or re-lead keys. Unlike many rebuilders I don't like the Renner parts for rebuilding vintage Steinways. The quality is excellent, but they are too heavy. If they are used there is generally no way out of having to re-lead the keys. This goes against what I like in an action. The vintage Steinways used an almost feather light hammer, lightweight shanks, and not too much lead in the keys. As a player I like the feel this combination gives and don't want to change things by adding lead to the keys to compensate for heavier action parts. I've tried lightening the Renner parts when I've used them in the past but have not been satisfied with the results. The Renner hammers seem to give a darker sound, the Tokiwa hammers a brighter sound irregardless of how they are voiced. I wouldn't be surprised if some of this has to do with the Renner hammer being heavier than the Tokiwa hammer. Either sound is good, it's just a matter of taste. The sound I've gotten from the B with the Brooks/Abel hammers I find very pleasing but hard to describe. As I've only used them on one piano, I can't yet evaluate how much of the difference in sound between this piano and others I've done is due to the hammers. I haven't used Steinway parts in years. My issue with them is that the contemporary Steinway hammer is heavier than the hammers they used on the vintage pianos, and using them gets into the same action weight issues as with the Renner parts. There are also some geometry differences in the shanks, but I don't think this is a big issue. Also the Steinway hammer is soft when new and requires either a long period of playing in or the use of artificial hardening agents like lacquer to develop the sound of the piano. The hammers from the other sources are pressed more densly and require voicing down to attain the proper level. Voicing down is much easier than trying to bring hammers up, and I know very quickly how my piano is going to sound. If we could call up Steinway and say something like ,'I need action parts for a 1925 A' and get hammers that matched the originals in weight and feel and shanks of the same dimensions as the original, I doubt that there would be any great market for other makers to be supplying these parts. At any rate, the result depends as much on the care taken in building the action as on the parts selected. But I would like to know what these cheap action parts that screw up the pianos are. Niles Duncan rebuilder, Los Angeles CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: Niles Duncan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 01:25:03 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
OK. I go away for a few days and we get this big thread on rebuilding old Steinways. It's my turn to weigh in on this. I think I'll do several different messages to cover different topics. The most probable reason that the action feels sloppy and has the side to side play that you mentioned is worn out key bushings. If you look at a key, it pivots on a steel pin at the fulcrum, and also is guided by another steel pin underneath the key at the key head. These pins fit into mortices in the key that are lined with a felt bushing. When the bushing is worn you get that play and a sloppy feeling. Replacing key bushings is a routine job that generally costs about $300. You might be surprised how much tighter and more precise an action feels just by replacing worn out key bushings. It's possible that when this piano was rebuilt the keys were not rebushed. It's also possible that they were, but five or so years of frequent playing wore them out. What cheap action parts as David suggests would have to do with sloppy keys escapes me. The excess gap between the keys would not have any effect on the feel of the action. It's the condition of the key bushings and mortices that matters here. The reason for the large gap is that when the new keytops were put on the piano whoever did the recovering was not sufficiently careful when grinding the sides of the new keytops to match the keys and ground off material from the sides of the keys as well. This unfortunately happens all too often when people who lack the experience or careful approach to the job recover keys. Unless the wood in the mortices where the key bushings are placed is damaged to the point that it's impossible to do a good key bushing job, this action probably can be made to feel clean and precise without replacing keys. The gaps are unsightly, but with the cost of having a new keyboard made being about $2700 it's not going to happen. The unsightliness of the large gaps could be mitigated somewhat by recovering the keys and allowing the new keytops to overlap very slightly the sides of the keys. What David is saying about replacing the action stack is very unlikely. While we routinely replace the parts on the stack - the hammers, shanks and flanges, and whippens - replacing the stack frame itself is an absolute rarity, particularly on a budget driven commercial rebuild. The stack frame would have to be incredibly damaged before anyone would even think about doing that, and unless it was I can't see any reason to replace it. It is possible that the lack of tone in the high treble could be due to an incorrect striking point as Ryan suggests. This could be checked by removing the fallboard, cheekblocks, and keyslip and moving the action in and out to see if there is a spot where the sound in the treble improves significantly. If this is all that the problem is, it can be addressed by adjusting the keyboard positioning screw in the treble cheekblock. It could also be that the soundboard is past its prime and starting to lose its resonance. It's totally possible to have a soundboard that is producing reasonably good sound through most of the range but starting to die in the treble. It really is possible to rebuild an old action to perform as well as a new one, but it takes time, patience, and experience. Unfortunately this doesn't always happen, and it's not always the fault of the rebuilder since the customer is the one who controls the budget. Niles Duncan www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: David Burton
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 04:52:01 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I had to wait for my contacts to respond before reporting back to the forum. The issue of 'cheap action parts' causing a wobbly side to side motion was certainly met with some lively responses. First of all I need to remind the forum that I am a pianist first and foremost and that I am not a piano rebuilder but rather someone who is rather interested in it. I have seen many piano rebuilds, at least 25, maybe closer to 50. They have varied in quality both in terms of sound and feel. Most have been excellent. A few have been really poor. The majority I have encountered were in private homes. Most, probably almost two-thirds have been Steinways. When I have been told by a rebuilder, and in this case more than one, that the cause of a wobbly or otherwise unresponsive or noisy action on one of the poor rebuilt pianos is 'cheap action parts' I have to report that to the forum as the best of my knowledge and face alternative opinion, in this case from Niles who is a piano rebuilder and certainly has more experience than do I. In fact I consider Niles one of my better sources for reliable information based on what I have read and seen on his website. Maybe someday I'll have the pleasure to play one of his rebuilt pianos. Anyway, the results of inquiries was this. I am in contact with 5 piano rebuilders on a semi-regular basis, who are all over the country, all of whom wished to remain anonymous and none of them would actually supply me with any brand name or supplier of action parts for my survey. One of the five had no experience rebuilding Steinway grands. Of the remaining four, one emphatically told me that he would never use one of the brands mentioned by Niles. The others said that they used at least the four mentioned by Niles and said there were other parts available both some made in Mexico and elsewhere which they would in any case never use. One even mentioned some kinds made in Brazil, or in China! I find it difficult to believe that any piano action parts could be made in Brazil, but until recently I found it hard to believe that anyone could have been building pianos in South Africa. One rebuilder said he was aware of other rebuilders who had actually made action parts from 'cheaper pianos' fit into Steinway actions. OK, I fired back a response asking if he was implying that these 'cheap parts' were 'free parts' or 'used parts'? He said that in a few cases they were used parts. I still don't know based on what Niles has said whether to believe any of this or not. I think my leg is being pulled half the time anyway and I am beginning to wonder who is telling me the truth. It seems to me that there is a lot of competition out there and some are not adverse to trashing their competition on any pretext. I'm wondering how much of this can be chalked up to basic human insecurity. One rebuilder said that Niles was right on the money and that he did things pretty much the same as Niles does and for the same reasons and this was the one who said he had rebuilt the most pianos. One mentioned another brand of action parts made by someone in Canada that he felt were superior to any others including Steinway and that they were more expensive than Steinway parts but not by much and he preferred to use those. I wanted to know how many vintage Steinway grands each had actually done. Of the four who had actually rebuilt a Steinway grand, one said 5, another 7, another more than 25!, and the fourth 13. Concerning rebushing the keys, all of them said that this was an key to eliminate side to side motion but that as they said 'cheap action parts' or as Niles said, 'the way they are installed' can contribute to whether a hammer hits the strings in the middle or to one side or whether the action feels ineven, noisy or unresponsive. All of them agreed about sloppy key covering causing gaps and agreed that replacing a keyboard was not usually an acceptable alternative unless the keyboard was so badly damaged that they had no alternative. One had rebuilt a non-Steinway grand that required this. Anyway I am certain to be a little more careful when discussing their craft with rebuilders. Niles was right to question me. I just had to get back to my sources and find out what they had to say. The fact remains, if you play enough rebuilt pianos you will encounter those that are incredibly live, excellent and are pianos of our dreams and others that have us at least asking what went wrong? These are pianos that in some extreme cases play weird and sound dead.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: ryan
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 09:48:08 (EST)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Niles, Thanks for the info! Your explenation makes sense. Based on the appearance of bubbles in the new keytops and some cracks in the finish, my impression was that this rebuild was on a tight budget. I did not know that part of a soundboard can die. Is that difficult to diagnose? Ryan

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: ryan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 18:20:20 (EST)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Thanks for the 'rant'. This is the kind of stuff I was looking for when I posted this. A few more details: The pin block is new. The pins seem to be put in straight and the gap between the string winding and block is uniform. It looks like this was done correctly. When you say that the piano is ruined, what kinds of things would not be reversable? If you assume that the damage is constrained to the action (and finish), is there any reason except cost that you could not replace the entire action and all the keys with new ones? It would be interesting to get the dealer to pull the action to see what has been done. BTW, the dealer that is currently stuck with this piano has an extremely competent technical staff (one of the best I have seen) and they did not rebuild this piano. They obtained it on a trade in. I don't know if they were aware of the problems when they got the piano and didn't think they were as bad as I do, or if they didn't check the piano out before taking it, or if they new the problems were serious and took the piano in anyway. Anyway, the rebuild was performed 5 or 6 years ago, and to my novice eye it looks like the piano is slowly unraveling. If they've had it for a while, maybe it's gotten worse just sitting on the showroom floor.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: John D.
To: ryan
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:45:41 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I played a rebuilt 1909 Steinway model 'O' the other evening. It had been rebuiltin the last five years, with a new pinblock, new pins, new strings, many new action parts, and new key covers. The sound was very 'Steinway', and sounded great. However, I felt that the action was loose and sloppy. Also, some of the higher notes had more of a 'thunk' than a bell like tone. To compare, I walked over to a brand new Sauter 185 and the difference in feel was night and day. The action in the Sauter was 'tight' in a good way, e.g. solid, accurate, consistent, and very touch sensitive. The tone of the Sauter just blew away the old Steinway as well. Is this common in rebuilt pianos, or did I just find one that had a bad rebuild job? It was supposedly rebuilt by the authority on Steinways in the area. I have played other rebuilt pianos that just feel, well, old. It's probably unrealistic to expect an old piano to feel brand new. I know that some of you guys really champion rebuilding old pianos, and I wondered what your thoughts are on this subject. Thanks, Ryan
---
Ryan, I am no authority on rebuilt pianos, but I have played many that feel, and sound, as you describe - old. I question exactly what was done versus what I was told was done. On the other hand, I have played some rebuilt Steinways that were fantastic and would blow the hammers off most of the new ones (IMO). I don't know what part of the country you are from, but there are some very good rebuilders in NYC. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: bobb
To: John D.
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 18:55:27 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
A 'rebild' can mean many things. This was a *partial* rebuild. I think you needed a new sounboard and a brand new action. With 'the works', I don't see why an old piano 'can't sound like a new piano' But that is very expensive, and whether it is worth a full rebuild depends on factors that are beyond my competence.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: ryan
To: bobb
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 19:19:55 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Bob, you have a good point. Instead of 're-working' the action, they probably should have completely replaced it. They did replace all the hammers, which is probably why it sounded good (actually it sounded quite good), just lacked on playability. Do you know what the criteria is for deciding if the sound-board needs to be replaced? A total rebuild has to be very expensive! I wonder if it's better to buy a new or newer piano in the long run? Thanks, Ryan

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: Alex
To: ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 17:43:53 (EDT)
Email Address: mozart@virtualtradelink.com

Message:
I may be a little biased but -- I just had a 1911 Model A completely rebuilt including soundboard and action. In my opinion, this piano is fabulous. As I mentioned earlier, a couple of Steinway reps visited the facility (I guess I should mention that it was rebuilt by Encore Pianos at Kahn's for Pianos here in Dallas) and mistakenly believed that it was a new piano. The cost was $15,000 to rebuild (note that I already owned the piano through an inheritance). Compare this piano to any piano in the $15k to $25k price range and there is no comparison. During the rebuilding process, I played a number of rebuilt pianos from Steinway to Knabe to M&H. If they are done right, you end up with a wonderful piano at less than half the cost if you already own the piano or about 70% of the cost if you have to purchase the older piano prior to rebuilding. I am truly converted. I love the look, the feel (i.e., ivory keys), and the sound of the older pianos. Just one humble opinion.

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: Andrew
To: Alex
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 08:05:41 (EST)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Congrats Alex, That probably explained why some world class concert pianists only look for good rebuilt top-tier grands rather than brand new pianos. Normally for these pianists financial capability is not the issue but the quality of the instruments in concern. Have great enjoyment with your 'A'! Andrew

Subject: Re: Rebuilt 1909 Steinway Model 'O'
From: bobb
To: ryan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 01:09:47 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:

Subject: Ronisch Upright Piano
From: Pianoman
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 18:12:42 (EST)
Email Address: georgeb@thezone.net

Message:
I have a client that has a 1911 Ronisch Upright Piano in mint condition. The case, stings,pinblock,action and trapwork is like the day that it ws purchased. My client has asked me what he should insure his antique piano for? I am looking for information of the value and any information that one can give on this make of piano RONISCH. Thanks Pianoman

Subject: Re: Ronisch Upright Piano
From: David Burton
To: Pianoman
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:18:10 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have a client that has a 1911 Ronisch Upright Piano in mint condition. The case, stings,pinblock,action and trapwork is like the day that it ws purchased. My client has asked me what he should insure his antique piano for? I am looking for information of the value and any information that one can give on this make of piano RONISCH. Thanks Pianoman
---
Well it was probably made in Leipzig, Germany possibly even St. Petersburg, Russia since they had a factory there too. Never run into one but they do have a good reputation. But even so an upright piano of that vintage is worth at most around $7,000 in absolute mint usually rebuilt condition.

Subject: Re: Ronisch Upright Piano
From: Pianoman
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:08:50 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have a client that has a 1911 Ronisch Upright Piano in mint condition. The case, stings,pinblock,action and trapwork is like the day that it ws purchased. My client has asked me what he should insure his antique piano for? I am looking for information of the value and any information that one can give on this make of piano RONISCH. Thanks Pianoman
---
Well it was probably made in Leipzig, Germany possibly even St. Petersburg, Russia since they had a factory there too. Never run into one but they do have a good reputation. But even so an upright piano of that vintage is worth at most around $7,000 in absolute mint usually rebuilt condition.
---
Thanks David for the information on the Ronisch Upright piano. I checked it out several times, and glad to report that this piano has never been rebuilt. It was sold by Ayes and Sons downtown St. John's Nfld and I think that my client still has the orginal bill of sale. This piano has been in the family for a generation or so ...but I must admit that the excellent condition of this instrument dating back to 1911 is beyond me. Therefore I tend to go to ten thousand as a repacement cost.I would appreciate any further info you may have on this brand of piano. Thanks again, Pianoman

Subject: Re: Ronisch Upright Piano
From: Pianoman
To: Pianoman
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 10:14:43 (EST)
Email Address: georgeb@thezone.net

Message:

Subject: Re: Ronisch Upright Piano
From: Pianoman
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 09:58:49 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have a client that has a 1911 Ronisch Upright Piano in mint condition. The case, stings,pinblock,action and trapwork is like the day that it ws purchased. My client has asked me what he should insure his antique piano for? I am looking for information of the value and any information that one can give on this make of piano RONISCH. Thanks Pianoman
---
Well it was probably made in Leipzig, Germany possibly even St. Petersburg, Russia since they had a factory there too. Never run into one but they do have a good reputation. But even so an upright piano of that vintage is worth at most around $7,000 in absolute mint usually rebuilt condition.
---

Subject: Gulbransen 1951 Spinet
From: Brian Graham
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 00:43:14 (EST)
Email Address: fbgraham@aol.com

Message:
I have a 1951 Gulbransen spinet piano in very good condition. Does anyone know the ballpark market value for a piano like this?

Subject: Re: Gulbransen 1951 Spinet
From: David Burton
To: Brian Graham
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:11:02 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have a 1951 Gulbransen spinet piano in very good condition. Does anyone know the ballpark market value for a piano like this?
---
Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by AN EXPERIENCED PIANO TECHNICIAN. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Hardman upright
From: Ann
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 23:07:15 (EST)
Email Address: justjoe63

Message:
I am considering the purchase of a used Hardman upright. It appears to be in good condition and has a nice sound, but I would REALLY appreciate an objective and knowledgeable opinion as to whether Hardman is/was a a quality manufacturer. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Hardman upright
From: David Burton
To: Ann
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:09:13 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I commented on a previous post that Hardman also Hardman & Peck really 'cranked em out' earlier in this century and despite the fact that a number of their grands have been rebuilt and some really like them, they can't really be considered a 'quality' name in pianos. Their biggest business was in pedal player pianos, mostly uprights. Also, Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by AN EXPERIENCED PIANO TECHNICIAN. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: My adopted piano
From: Jamie B
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:52:23 (EST)
Email Address: na

Message:
I was given a piano that has 'Godfry of London' on it's upper lip. It is an upright and is black. My tuner said it was probably made in the 1880-90's. I can't find anyone who has any info on it. I'd be greatful if you could help. XOXO

Subject: Re: My adopted piano
From: David Burton
To: Jamie B
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 06:03:19 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I was given a piano that has 'Godfry of London' on it's upper lip. It is an upright and is black. My tuner said it was probably made in the 1880-90's. I can't find anyone who has any info on it. I'd be greatful if you could help. XOXO
---
Found a GODFREY in London but no GODFRY. Even so not much info on Godfrey.

Subject: Fischer
From: Martha Musselman
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 06:54:10 (EST)
Email Address: Mussnc@aol.com

Message:
I am searching for any information on a Fischer, square grand -- pre 1869. The only numbers I have been able to locate are J 9410, and it was built in New York. Anything?

Subject: Re: Fischer
From: David Burton
To: Martha Musselman
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:50:33 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I am searching for any information on a Fischer, square grand -- pre 1869. The only numbers I have been able to locate are J 9410, and it was built in New York. Anything?
---
J. & C. Fischer, established in 1840 by two brothers in New York. If the serial of your piano is 9410 it was made between 1860 and 1865. Square pianos aren't really very good musical instruments. Some rebuilders specialize in restoring them but They are usually considered very interesting conversation pieces and not much more.

Subject: Piano
From: Paul Rochon
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 18:00:15 (EST)
Email Address: prochon@home.com

Message:
Is the piano classified as a string or percussion instrument?

Subject: Re: Piano
From: David Burton
To: Paul Rochon
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:44:40 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Is the piano classified as a string or percussion instrument?
---
A piano is usually classed as a percussion instrument. But IMHO this classification has always been incorrect. Are pipe organs wind instruments? No. Are harpsichords to be classed with guitars? No. The key trait they share is that they have KEYBOARDS and therefore the correct classification should be that pianos, organs, harpsichords and some accordions are KEYBOARD instruments.

Subject: Heintzman Grand
From: Geoff
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 20:26:31 (EST)
Email Address: gmurphyptc@worldnet.att.net

Message:
Need info on a rebuilt Heintzman 5'4' grand in mahogany built in 1922. Is $9000 a fair price? The seller referred to the Heintzman as a 'Canadian Steinway'. Is this an accurate characterization? Has good tone. Please respond as soon as possible with any input you may have - would hate to see this one get away if it is a good deal!

Subject: Re: Heintzman Grand
From: David Burton
To: Geoff
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:38:15 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Well again the only originality some people have is to compare their piano with a Steinway. As for Heintzman, it was started by a German immigrant to Canada and has been until it closed in the early 1980's a Canadian company ever since. It never made more than 2,000 to 3,000 units a year which is perhaps a positive indicator of quality. All I can pass on is that yes I have gotten a few good reports about the quality of some Heinzman pianos. As for spending $9,000 for a 1922 vintage or otherwise 5'4' 'baby' grand, well I wouldn't. I am prejudiced against grand pianos shorter than 5'7' But it may be a nice enough piano anyway and if you like it then.......

Subject: H.B. Cable & Milton (New York)
From: Jeff Brower
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 22:27:35 (EST)
Email Address: thebrow@ili.net

Message:
When I bought my house there were two pianos in the basement. One is labled Hobart M. Cable and the other Milton (New York). The first is approximately 50 yrs old and the other 90 years old. Both are operational and the wood work is in excellent condition but the keys show wear and chipping from age.Do these units have any value and would it be wise to salvage them? We contemplated destroying the units as space is becoming a premium in the house. Could anyone with information on either of these units please help? I thank you in advance for your response.

Subject: Re: H.B. Cable & Milton (New York)
From: David Burton
To: Jeff Brower
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 05:27:04 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
When I bought my house there were two pianos in the basement. One is labled Hobart M. Cable and the other Milton (New York). The first is approximately 50 yrs old and the other 90 years old. Both are operational and the wood work is in excellent condition but the keys show wear and chipping from age.Do these units have any value and would it be wise to salvage them? We contemplated destroying the units as space is becoming a premium in the house. Could anyone with information on either of these units please help? I thank you in advance for your response.
---
Neither are remarkable pianos by name or vintage. If they had been in my basement I'd wonder about them. Water and dampness are the death of pianos. They're probably ready to be hauled off to the piano boneyard. But if you wish, Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by AN EXPERIENCED PIANO TECHNICIAN. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Mason & Hamlin Uprights...NO MORE!
From: Michael
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 10:36:47 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Just talked to the factory, they have stopped production of the uprights until they get there grand production back on track.......

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin Uprights...NO MORE!
From: Mat D.
To: Michael
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:07:29 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Michael, by 'Back on track', do you mean the demand for grands is greater than their ability to produce them? I hope that's the case! Mat D.

Subject: mason&hamlin upright
From: dan rothenberg
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:44:42 (EST)
Email Address: yankeehome.com

Message:
Thanks for this forum. I read it all! I was in the market for a Yamaha U1 or similar. Found a used, private sale mason & hamlin 50' upright, 6 years old, made in Haverhill, exc. cond. (haven't seen yet) $3500. seems like a STEAL. if it checks out, should I pounce?

Subject: Re: mason&hamlin upright
From: dan rothenberg
To: dan rothenberg
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 17:03:32 (EST)
Email Address: yankeenospam@home.com

Message:
Thanks for the encouragement! I will see/play it Sunday morning and report back. Pretty excited about the prospect of getting this quality for the price. I received the name of owner's tuner/tech who knows the piano. Can I rely on his opinion and my semi-informed inspection (well, I read the Piano book!) or do I need to hire another tech...? the seller is an hour from home in a very small town. The tech is certified.

Subject: Re: mason&hamlin upright
From: Mat D.
To: dan rothenberg
Date Posted: Sat, Nov 06, 1999 at 02:03:04 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Dan, no-one can really answer the question of the credibility of the owner's tech, but it certainly would be worth the effort to bring along your own expert. My guess is that the owner's tech will be honest about his opinion because he knows you are going to be looking at & playing this piano for yourself. It is only a few years old & that is a plus. If it were me, I would get ahold of a technician to come with me when I check it out-- - if all is OK, buy it on the spot; you probably won't get another shot at it. BTW, don't hesitate, because as they say: 'If you snooze, you lose!' My advice
---
BRING YOUR CHECKBOOK! Good luck! Mat D.

Subject: Re: mason&hamlin upright
From: Joy
To: dan rothenberg
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 16:23:15 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks for this forum. I read it all! I was in the market for a Yamaha U1 or similar. Found a used, private sale mason & hamlin 50' upright, 6 years old, made in Haverhill, exc. cond. (haven't seen yet) $3500. seems like a STEAL. if it checks out, should I pounce?
---
See Michael's posting of 11/5. Better STEAL it before someone else does. Believe it or not, I had leads on two other used ones before I got my current one. Other people beat me to them. These are fine pianos, well built pianos.

Subject: Re: mason&hamlin upright
From: Joy
To: dan rothenberg
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:57:48 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
If it checks out, buy it at once! On the spot. I really mean that. And at that price, it's TRULY a deal.

Subject: Re: mason&hamlin upright
From: Mat D.
To: dan rothenberg
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:16:12 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Dan, If the piano checks out (only 6 years old, it should), by all means do 'pounce' on it! I wish you the best. Please keep us up to date. I hope you too can soon count yourself among the lucky M&H owners. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: mason&hamlin upright
From: Joy
To: dan rothenberg
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 23:11:27 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks for this forum. I read it all! I was in the market for a Yamaha U1 or similar. Found a used, private sale mason & hamlin 50' upright, 6 years old, made in Haverhill, exc. cond. (haven't seen yet) $3500. seems like a STEAL. if it checks out, should I pounce?
---
Yes.

Subject: Advice on Buying Petrof?
From: Todd
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:58:06 (EDT)
Email Address: ToddForest@aol.com

Message:
I am in the process of buying a grand piano for my wife. She wants to resume playing after many years off as a balance to her career stress. We have spent several weekends looking at several dealers and have received confusing and conflicting advice. We are contamplating buying a Petrof (5'8') with a mahogany case that is about 7 years old for $11k. It is in beautiful shape, but I'm not sure if this is a reasonable price. Have also contemplated Kawai and Boston as alternatives. Have also considered new, and slightly used (2-10 years). Any advice?

Subject: Re: Advice on Buying Petrof?
From: Cork
To: Todd
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:54:44 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
In general I agree with Mat and Joy. I'd add two comments: 1. Have any used instrument checked out by an independent technician. This is trickier if the piano is in a dealership, but it is still important. 2. I think $11K is a little on the pricy side unless the piano draws high praise from your tech. (IOW, it is well-regulated and voiced, to Mat's point). Cork

Subject: Re: Advice on Buying Petrof?
From: Mat D.
To: Todd
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:14:06 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Todd, the Petrof is an excellent choice. I personally prefere the more 'complex' tone of the Petrof to the Kawai or Boston (made by Kawai for Boston/Steinway). If you love the piano, I would say that $11,000 is a fair price--I would rather buy a piano that is a few years old & voiced/regulated already to my liking, than a new piano that I have to work real hard to get my technician to set-up to my liking; it sounds like this piano is just the thing. BTW, i love the Petrof mahogany finish
---
Beautiful! Good luck, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Advice on Buying Petrof?
From: Joy
To: Todd
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:32:20 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am in the process of buying a grand piano for my wife. She wants to resume playing after many years off as a balance to her career stress. We have spent several weekends looking at several dealers and have received confusing and conflicting advice. We are contamplating buying a Petrof (5'8') with a mahogany case that is about 7 years old for $11k. It is in beautiful shape, but I'm not sure if this is a reasonable price. Have also contemplated Kawai and Boston as alternatives. Have also considered new, and slightly used (2-10 years). Any advice?
---
I met a piano teacher who just bought a 20-year-old Petrof grand for 12K. She is positively ecstatic about her purchase ('These pianos produce a beautiful sound, and the pianos are hand-made') after being a Kawai owner for 15 years. Many piano technicians recommend Petrof, too. They are good buys, given the current import situation, and this may not last long. It's worth it to read past messages -- click for the complete message list -- and read all the postings on Petrofs and grands. This site is a treasure-trove of information!

Subject: Re: Advice on Buying Petrof?
From: Todd
To: Joy
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 16:57:58 (EST)
Email Address: ToddForest@aol.com

Message:
Thanks everyone!! I decided to purchase the Petrof - got down to 11,250 (no sales tax). We love it!! It is a gorgeous cabinet (gloss mahoganey), and has a rich, warm sound that we love. My wife was in Australia for 2 weeks on biz, and I had it delivered before she returned. She was thrilled! Also, I feel very comfortable with the Petrof brand after reading other postings. It feels like a wonderful piano -- for a reasonable price.

Subject: Re: Advice on Buying Petrof?
From: Mat D.
To: Todd
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:26:31 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Todd, Congratulations! You made a very good choice, and I'm sure your wife was thrilled to pieces! Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Petrof Dealers
From: Kim
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 20:21:43 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I've received lots of helpful information on this piano forum - thank you to everyone that responded! I have not made a purchase yet. Does anyone know where there is a Petrof dealer in the Detroit area? I would like to see this piano. Thank-you, Kim

Subject: Re: Petrof Dealers
From: Brenda
To: Kim
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 21:05:47 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I've received lots of helpful information on this piano forum - thank you to everyone that responded! I have not made a purchase yet. Does anyone know where there is a Petrof dealer in the Detroit area? I would like to see this piano. Thank-you, Kim
---
Kim, Pianoworks in Ferndale sells Petrof pianos. The address there is 23225 Woodward Ave.

Subject: Re: Petrof Dealers
From: Mat D.
To: Brenda
Date Posted: Fri, Nov 05, 1999 at 01:21:58 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Kim, The owners name (Pianoworks) is Grant, a very nice gentleman. he carries quite a few Petrofs. Tell him Mat deRaad sent you--he'll take care of you. Don't let him whine too much about the pricing, he'll deal with you, but he might whine about it a little--don't let that bother you. Also, be sure to insist on his best technician fro proper voicing & regulation
---
-this is very important, as you probably have already read 20 times before. Please let us know. If you care to e-mail me, I'll call Grant for you to be sure everything is all set--it might help. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 13:08:04 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am considering buying a new Knabe 5'9' grand. Never owned a piano (or played ). Any opinions on this piano? Thanks greatly for your help!

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Mary
To: Kim
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:44:19 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
First you should know I am a piano player. But please know that $15,000 will buy a much, much higher quality instrument in a grand piano than what you are looking at right now (of course there will be no player mechanism). If you don't play but may learn or dabble a little later, my advice is to take $5,000 -$7,500 and buy a very high end stereo and then spend $2,500 - $5,000 for a good used upright piano. If you want the furniture value/prestige of a grand in your living room and will never play much you could also find a no name brand rebuilt grand piano with a nice finish for about $7,000 too, but then still buy the $5,000 stereo.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: John
To: Kim
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 06:26:24 (EDT)
Email Address: jomason@cba.ua.edu

Message:
Here is a suggestion. If the Knabe is brand new, as opposed to being on the dealer's floor for some time, the front of the piano should say 'Wm Knabe & Co.' Seeing that means the piano is less than a couple of months old and was manufactured in Young Chang's plant in Korea to PianoDisc's specifications. PianoDisc owns the Knabe and Mason and Hamlin brands. Otherwise, seeing only 'Knabe' on the front means that either the piano has been on the dealer's floor for some time or it was made in Young Chang's Chinese plant. I strongly suggest that, if you buy a new Knabe, you buy one that was made in Korea. Also, one of the nice things about purchasing a Knabe is that the PianoDisc system is installed by PianoDisc in Sacramento, CA. I would much prefer to have a PianoDisc system installed by PianoDisc than by a Dealer's technician. Most new Knabes come with the PianoDisc system pre-installed by PianoDisc. Finally, ask the dealer if the PianoDisc system has the Symphony module. This modulel allow you to take advantage of many of the MIDI files that you might download from the Internet. Without the Symphony module, you hear only what is played on the piano. With the Symphony module, you can hear the other instruments (horn, drums, organ) that are sequenced in a MIDI file. Good luck with your purchase of a grand piano. I have a new 5'9' Knabe and love it. I compared it with a 5'3' Kawai (RX-1) the dealer had on display and thought that the Knabe had a richer sound. Incidentally, if you have the room, you might also consider the 6'1' Knabe model. It costs very little more (perhaps a couple of hundred dollars) than the 5'9' model.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Cindi
To: John
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:07:12 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Hello, Wanted to follow up a little info on the post about the William Knabe being Korean and the Knabe on the fallboard being Chinese. This is not so. Any Knabe model KN is from Korea. And Knabe model KB is made in China. Just as the Baldwin and DH Baldwin and many others, it is the model number that indicates where the piano was manufactured. This information is direct from PianoDisc Company. Cindi West Seymour West Piano Service Roanoke, Va.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Andrew
To: Kim
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 12:08:42 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
I really should ask you a bunch of questions before I try to asnwer. Knabe grands CAN be excellent pianos but. . . Like I said a few questions should be answered by you first before people can offer you sensible answers. Have you tried it? How does it sound to you? How does the action respond? Is the piano in reasonably good shape? Has the piano been well maintained ( in other words, was the piano treated as a loved instrument or a piece of furniture?) Of course one important question among all of them should always be 'Is the soundboard in good shape?' (in the sense any cracks, just none or slight or bad, etc.) If you can provide this board with some answer Cork or David and a few others can help you. Good luck! Andrew

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 15:33:41 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks Andrew for responding to my question. The piano I was looking at is brand new from a dealer. I also looked at (today) a Young Chang Pramberger Signature Series, also brand new from a dealer. This is a 4'11' grand. I don't play so I have to determine my best purchase by only what I am told. I will be having a player installed. I thought this one had a nice sound for the size. Thanks again!

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Mat D.
To: Kim
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:19:03 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Kim, do yourself a favor & don't buy a 4'11' grand piano
---
this is just too small for a grand, you'd be better off with an upright. As for the 5'8' knabe, the size is better, but please tell us how much the dealer is asking--I think you might be able to do better. Please post your price & we'll see about some suggestions for other pianos. The Knabe was once a great piano, but is now an Asian piano with no relation whatsoever to the original company. I have a friend who has a 5'9' Knabe (new) and frankly, I am not impressed with it. Post your price & I'll make some suggestions. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 07:59:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I really appreciate the advice from everyone. The 5'9' Knabe is priced at $15,000.00 and says Knabe on the piano, not Wm. Knabe & Co. I'm also considering Young Chang Pramberger Signature Series with the player. Any thoughts on this? Thank you.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: John
To: Kim
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 14:06:27 (EDT)
Email Address: jomason@cba.ua.edu

Message:
Kim, Did the $15,000 price for the 5'9' Knabe include ebony finish, Piano Disc w/symphony, tax, delivery, and set-up? If not, what did it include? I am just trying to see whether I paid a fair price for my 5'9' Knabe. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: John
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:01:45 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
John, The Knabe I looked at was a white polish. The Piano Disc had all of the options and it did include tax, delivery, set-up and one tuning. The piano said Knabe on it, not Knabe & Co. which I now understand are the ones owned by Piano Disc. It's really hard to know which of these dealers are reputable. Hope this information helps!

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Mat D.
To: Kim
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 15:10:53 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Hi Kim, My only thought is, at $15,000 you should be looking at the Petrof line of pianos. You can get their 5'8' for less than that (I believe). I have been quoted $16,500 for their 6'4' (you might have to do some real wheeling & dealing here). The bottom line is, IMO the Petrof is a much better value; the tone is warmer (w/proper voicing) and in the larger grands you get Renner action and they are beautiful to look at (they come in a high gloss ebeony, mahagony, walnut). The Knabe you are looking at only has the name in common with the original (great Knabe) company
---
nothing else. The Young Chang Pramberger (see above post)is also not bad (probably a better choice than the Knabe) but I still prefer Petrof by quite a margin. Whatever you buy, be sure the dealer is reputable and that you have proper voicing & regulation work from their technician included in the price
---
this is very important especially with the Petrof which (like Steinway) comes from the factory less prepped than the Asian pianos. This is actually a good thing as long as you have a qualified technician doing the voicing & action regulation. Best of luck--let us know. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 19:37:28 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks again for everyones input. I would like to get your opinion on the price for the Young Chang Pramberger Series. For the 5'2', Ebony with the Piano Disc w/symphony the price is $16,250.00. That includes tax, delivery, set-up and two tunings the first year. The dealer is a piano technician and has been for 25 years. He quotes one price for everyone so that he's not giving all different prices for the same piano. I felt this person was more trustworthy than the other places I was dealing with, especially since I know nothing about pianos. He tunes the pianos when they come from the factory and then when they come back from having the player put on them, he goes over them again before they are delivered. He made a suggestion to me that since I do not play and probably never will, is it worth it to me to spend the extra money on the larger grands. How do you feel about this? Also, Mat D. I will take your suggestion and try to find a dealer who carries the Petrof line. Thank you for your help.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Mat D.
To: Kim
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:23:06 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Kim, after you check out the Petrof's, please get back to us. I'm curious as to your impression. I believe you can get a 6'4' Petrof for little more than you can get that Pramberger 5'2' for. I think you'll find the Petrof a much more serious instrument--Also, I have seen the 6'4' in a gorgeous mahagony wood--I'm going to get my brother to buy one, that way I'll have both my M&H BB and the Petrof
---
Good plan, eh?! talk to you soon, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:14:31 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat, I have every intention on checking out the Petrof's, that is if I can find a dealer. I found their web page but didn't have much luck with that. I'll try again. Thanks much for all of your suggestions.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Andrew
To: Kim
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 09:20:49 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Kim, If all you need is a player piano (used to be called anyway)it probably matters quite a bit of how the piano looks as well as it sounds since you're not likely to play it yourself that much. The sound should then, be your first priority. I'm not familiar with the new Knabes. I do, however, remember the sound of older Knabe and Young Chang. Young Changs never impressed me that much. The sound, on the other hand, of the older Knabes is, as a rule, quite good. I personally would stay away from any Young Chang, both upright and grand. My general impression and guess is Knabe would hold better both in its action and sound in the long run. This is just my feeling. Other posters like Mat, Cork are much more knowledgeable and experienced than me. Pay close attention to their advise when they post here. Good luck with your pursuit. A decent grand with these new toys like DiscPlayer can be a lot of fun and a good conversation piece. Andrew

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: David Burton
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 01:09:01 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Thought I'd just take a gander at this lengthy thread. Kim is looking to buy a piano. Thinks she wants a Knabe. Mary's comments and analysis were really cool. Cindi's information was much appreciated too. Kim mentioned the Young Chang Pramberger. My latest info on these from someone I trust is that they are mostly hype. He does not like Young Changs as much as Yamaha or Kawai. Mat D points out that, 'The Knabe was once a great piano, but is now an Asian piano with no relation whatsoever to the original company.' Not only is this true but in an earlier post I scornfully took the present owners of Knabe to task for creating the impression that they were still made in America. The present Knabe is a SCAM and a scandal! To begin with they should remove all mention of 'Baltimore' from their products and state somewhere that they are in fact made in Korea. And Mat D and others, I know it's hard to admit this and how many times we say it, it still doesn't matter because there are piano buyers out there who do not play themselves and that insist on buying these dinky grand pianos. As long as they insist, well heck they're going to buy those dinky grand pianos. At least if they must they should get them outfitted with pianodisk systems because after all they're just toys. Oh come on, $15,000 for a Chinese piano? Haven't they gotten enough out of us? John probably got his out of Korea, better by far and at least had good hammers and it was at least big enough to be a serious piano. Kim's price quote ON A 5'2' GRAND took my breath away! But Mat D is talking SERIOUS pianos to someone who may not even play the piano. Is it entertainment, furnature or a serious piano she's looking for? Maybe we're being TOO serious here. And Andrew, LOL, these new Knabe's ARE Young Changs. Someone on here said they decided to get into dealing in pianos. One of the things that invariably comes up is what is honesty in piano dealing? The truth is not going to hurt the person who isn't going to play and just wants a toy piano that plays by itself and looks serious but isn't. What do you think player pianos are about? Some may even be willing to shell out serious money for the pleasure. So come on, all of us 'serious piano types' should just let them. But do we feel a twinge of guilt? Yes, because we all play or are otherwise seriously involved with the technical beauties of fine pianos and can't abide seeing people throw decent money away on junk. Well guess what, some junk is always going to be popular. Where there's a market, etc. etc. But do you know what's really in the back of my mind is this; the more people who buy for themselves and their families junk pianos that aren't serious and don't SPEND THE TIME to develop themselves or members of their families as musicians, the more the entire focus of the reason for having, playing and enjoying fine pianos decreases over time until we have a popular culture and society out there that is like cable TV; plenty of choices and nothing to watch. Here on the Piano Forum, we will each of us spend lots of time discussing the merits of the latest or the most classic pianos but without the TIME SPENT in serious interest away from other more mundane matters in our daily lives to actually take up PLAYING THE PIANO, many of us out there will really miss the point of the interest.

Subject: Re: Knabe - Opinion
From: Kim
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 20:02:10 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
David, I appreciate your response, and it is very difficult for us that do not play to decide on a piano that we will be happy with. That is why we really need the advice of musicians and technicians to help us make this decision. By the way, I do intend to take piano lessons in addition to having a disk system installed. Kim

Subject: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys
From: laura
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 15:53:27 (EDT)
Email Address: audio3@webexpert.net

Message:
Hi I am hoping to shop and purchase a 52' upright tomorrow. I wish to spend less than 8k for a decent one. Any suggestions of NEW upright 52'inchers to give more attention to than the others?? What are the dogs(under 8k)? What are the gems(under 8k)? Thanks for your help!

Subject: Thanks everyone! A purchase has been made
From: laura
To: laura
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:11:22 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Quick thanks to everyone. All your suggestions were all well take. I have purchased a brand new Weinbach 48' and shes a beaut! Unfortunately, I live miles away from a whole lotta choices. However, I did have a decent enough selection to conclude the Weiny was the best for the price. 5g's. Great price. Decent piano thanks!!!

Subject: Re: Thanks everyone! A purchase has been made
From: Joy
To: laura
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 17:22:22 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Quick thanks to everyone. All your suggestions were all well take. I have purchased a brand new Weinbach 48' and shes a beaut! Unfortunately, I live miles away from a whole lotta choices. However, I did have a decent enough selection to conclude the Weiny was the best for the price. 5g's. Great price. Decent piano thanks!!!
---
Congratulations on your purchase! Actually, we were about to purchase a brand-new Weinbach, made by Petrof -- we liked the legless ebony model best, and the price was SO good for what you get in return -- until news of a used M&H for sale came along. May you have many many years of happy playing. My son says you'll be able to do lots of trills on a Weinbach, no problem. Thanks for letting us know what you selected. Happy trills, Joy

Subject: Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys
From: John D.
To: laura
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 16:49:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Hi I am hoping to shop and purchase a 52' upright tomorrow. I wish to spend less than 8k for a decent one. Any suggestions of NEW upright 52'inchers to give more attention to than the others?? What are the dogs(under 8k)? What are the gems(under 8k)? Thanks for your help!
---
You can probably pick up a Yamaha or a Kawai for under $8k. Both are very well built, high-quality pianos. Another piano to consider is Petrof. You can definitely get a Petrof for under $8K and some people would qualify that piano as a 'gem'. Personally, I've played the Yamaha and the Petrof side-by-side and no clear winner emerged. Petrof grands, however, are very nice (in my opinion). Be forewarned that Petrof's often need a lot of prep work that is not done at the factory. On the other hand, Yamaha's and Kawai's arrive virtually perfect from the factory.

Subject: Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys
From: Pianoman
To: John D.
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 18:07:22 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:

Subject: Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys
From: ryan
To: laura
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 16:37:46 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I don't have a lot of experience with new uprights, but I have played a couple of Charles Walter 48' pianos that were very nice and less than $8000. I really like the full size keys and the tone, which is sounds 'American' to me. I don't particularly care for the Asian sound, so I haven't paid too much attention to their uprights. I really like Steinway, Mason Hamlin, and Schimmel uprights but you would probably have to find one used to get it for less than 8k, and even then that would be a pretty amazing find.

Subject: Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys
From: Joy
To: ryan
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:32:35 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I don't have a lot of experience with new uprights, but I have played a couple of Charles Walter 48' pianos that were very nice and less than $8000. I really like the full size keys and the tone, which is sounds 'American' to me. I don't particularly care for the Asian sound, so I haven't paid too much attention to their uprights. I really like Steinway, Mason Hamlin, and Schimmel uprights but you would probably have to find one used to get it for less than 8k, and even then that would be a pretty amazing find.
---
Laura, I just went through 2.5 months of intensive shopping for an upright for my 16-year old son, a Bach/Beethoven/Chopin aficionado. Perhaps I can pass along some of what we learned. If I had $8,000 to spend, and it HAD to be for a NEW piano, I'd get the new 52' Petrof. It has a Renner action, and is absolutely divine to touch and hear. They are hand-built, and every piano technician I've encountered will vouch for them. It is true that often they are rudimentarily prepped -- that is, barely voice-and-regulated, so you need an experienced piano technician to voice and regulate them at your home. Perhaps you could use this fact in bargaining down the dealer's price, since you may need to spend $200.-$300 to get the job done right. The dealer's in-house techie probably won't do it as well as someone you pay for yourself. The Charles Walter is a great choice, too. Beautiful sound, and the ones we saw had a Renner action too. We rejected all the Asian pianos. My son couldn't stand their 'bright' sound. Said he probably wouldn't mind if all he played was jazz and ragtime, BUT . . . . Tuners will tell you they can fix that 'brightness', but they'll have to do that quite often. On the other hand, lots of people LIKE that bright, metallic sound I'm told, so this may not be an issue with you. It was a revelation to play a bass 'C' on a Yamaha and a Charles Walter, back-and-forth. What a difference in the way the tone was held! So your choice could be a matter of personal taste. My son insisted on a warm, 'complex' tone and a good touch. Luckily, we heard about a used Mason & Hamlin upright at an good price, had it checked out thoroughly by our piano technician, and we are so happy with it. We noticed that when you say 'Mason & Hamlin' to a piano technician, they look at you with awe, which I thought was interesting! Anyway, in conclusion, for $8,000 new, I'd say Petrof or Charles Walter. You'll easily find Yamahas at that price, too. Good luck.

Subject: Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys
From: David Burton
To: Joy
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 00:15:56 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Joy remarked, 'We noticed that when you say 'Mason & Hamlin' to a piano technician, they look at you with awe, which I thought was interesting!' Well, not really. There's Steinway which everyone has heard of and yes they do make good pianos, but then there's Mason & Hamlin and they are really the best. I've been trying to find out why and have come to the conclusion that they just happened to get everything right; mainly SCALING, also soundboards made of the right wood, a nice warn Northeastern white spruce instead of the usual Alaskan Sitka spruce. Their actions are comparable to Steinway in the older ones and are Renner in the new ones. But I really think it must be the scaling. I went over to our local high school auditorium a few nights back and after a concert played the nice big Mason & Hamlin BB they have there and a few of the teachers didn't even know that it was such a terrific piano and I said, 'never sell it, NEVER!' then I sat down and played some music on it and they all agreed.

Subject: Re: UPRIGHT piano help & best buys, and 'scaling'
From: Joy
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:06:52 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
'.... There's Steinway which everyone has heard of and yes they do make good pianos, but then there's Mason & Hamlin and they are really the best. I've been trying to find out why and have come to the conclusion that they just happened to get everything right; mainly SCALING,. . .' David, would you (and anyone else in this Piano Tech forum) mind explaining what SCALING is, in this context? Thanks much, Joy

Subject: Re: SCALING
From: David Burton
To: Joy
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 06:50:50 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Scaling: this term describes the mathematics of the string length, thickness, number of strings and sometimes striking position of the hammers on the strings along their speaking lengths which basically run from the agraffes, the raised portion of the plate on which the strings rest before going out across the gap where the hammers strike them and then over the soundboard to the bridge which is a strip of wood attached to the soundboard under it. The scaling determines among other things the tension of each string for its pitch requirements but also in general whether or not the whole sum of all the tensions required is either said to be a high tension or a low tension scale all of course relative to each other. Simple geometry determines that a string of a certain thickness will require a certain tension to achieve a given pitch. By varying the lengths and thicknesses of strings to achieve the same pitch, various subtle wave forms can be created. The idea behind having three strings of the same length or similar repeat the same pitch in a piano makes the piano louder as three strings are being struck rather than just one. Scaling is one of the factors that determines what a piano will actually sound like. The other factors are the hammers, the soundboard and to a much lesser degree the rim. Scaling is a very complex subject which lies at the heart of much of the piano rebuilding business and provokes lively discussion and some controversy.

Subject: Re: SCALING
From: Joy
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 19:45:32 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks for explaning, David. This only increases our appreciation of our M&H. My son likes to warm up by playing Beethoven's 32 Variations on an Original Theme in C minor, WoO 80. Sounds WONDERFUL on the M&H. Good scaling, eh?

Subject: August Forster pianos
From: Gary
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 13:18:37 (EST)
Email Address: grkirkla@cc.ysu.edu

Message:
Can anyone give me information on August Forster pianos? Are they still made? Are they a good quality piano? Where are they sold? I live in Ohio, and dealers here have never heard of them. I plan to buy a grand piano in the near future. I'm investigating several brands--Bluthner, Mason & Hamlin, and Steinway. I'd like to see and hear a Forster, too, before I make a decision. Any suggestions or information would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: August Forster pianos
From: Andrew
To: Gary
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 14:12:30 (EST)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
If you're looking at M&H or Steinway few other pianos should be too much of interest to you. Well, unless you are also interested in Bosendorfer or Fazioli. Forster does make good pianos. Mason & Hamlin to me, is THE piano that you do not need to sell your home to buy. As versus Forster, M&H, IMHO, is by far a superior musical instrument to own. Of course it does not hurt to play a Forster or two to get the feel for its sound and touch, etc. M&H will probably end up a champion. Andrew

Subject: Re: August Forster pianos
From: Mat D.
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 16:16:38 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Gary, I'm in total agreement with Andrew. I can't tell you of a Forster dealer in Ohio but in Michigan, call Pianoworks (ask for Grant--Owner)(248) 541-6334
---
August Forster & Petrof dealer. After you've checked out these pianos, be sure to take another look at the Mason & Hamlin
---
(800)566-3472 ext.108(Cecil Ramirez--Nat Sales Dir.) tell him Mat from Detroit sent you, I'm sure he will a great help to you. BTW we have a M&H dealer here in the Detroit area if you care to e-mail me, I'd be glad to put you in contact; I bought my M&H BB there & they'll take good care of you! Mat D.

Subject: Heinzman
From: Lorna
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 18:44:04 (EST)
Email Address: gmurphyptc@worldnet.att.net

Message:
I am looking at a rebuilt 1922 5'4' Heinzman grand. It has a beautiful mahogany cabinet and ivory keys. The tone is great. Asking price is $9000. Is this a reasonable deal and does anyone know the quality history of Heinzman? Lorna

Subject: Re: Heintzman
From: Lorna
To: Lorna
Date Posted: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 09:33:12 (EST)
Email Address: gmurphyptc@worldnet.att.net

Message:
I also had been told the Heintzman is considered to be the 'Canadian Steinway'. Any comments?

Subject: Fischer Piano
From: Martha Musselman
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 11:27:22 (EST)
Email Address: Mussnc@aol.com

Message:
I am searching for information on a Fischer square grand, pre-1869, serial # J 9410. Any information?

Subject: Re: Fischer Piano
From: Niles Duncan
To: Martha Musselman
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:02:51 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
I am searching for information on a Fischer square grand, pre-1869, serial # J 9410. Any information?
---
According to Pierce Piano Atlas: J. Fischer established 1840 by Joseph Fischer, later bought by American Piano Company which was in turn bought by Aeolian Piano Company. Serial number 9410 would have been made between 1860 and 1865. That's about it. Is there something in particular you want to know? Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles www.pianosource.com

Subject: Mason & Hamlin
From: Michael
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:26:19 (EST)
Email Address: skersare1@aol.com

Message:
How much is a new Mason Hamlin Upright ?? I have emailed the company for a dealer in my area and no response from them. What can I expect to spend for a new piano from this 'great' company?

Subject: Try:800 566-3472 ext.108...more
From: Mat D.
To: Michael
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:45:32 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
...that is the # for M&H --Cecil Rameirez (National Sales Mgr). He's a nice guy & should be able to stear you in the right direction. BTW it's worth the effort to find a M&H--You'll fall in love with it. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Mason & Hamlin
From: Robert J.
To: Michael
Date Posted: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 11:17:19 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I also requested information about the company, price list and list of dealers in my area (San Diego). They sent me a brochure and price list but no list of dealers. The suggested retail for their verticals is $14,192 - $14,404.

Subject: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Chris Wright
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 11:13:55 (EDT)
Email Address: cmw@netcomuk.co.uk

Message:
In October 1998 I bought a Steinway upright piano, serial number 92127, which I have dated to 1898 from Steinway's web site. It was originally ebonised, but was refinished by the dealer I bought it from as its case was in such poor condition. He also told me that it has been restrung and had new hammer heads in the last 20 years. It has original ivory keys, sounds terrific and is a joy to play. However, I don't know what model it is, where it was made, or anything else about it. I have a picture of it on-line (see image link). Can anybody help? www.netcomuk.co.uk/~dartcom/chris/steinway.jpg

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Chris Wright
To: Chris Wright
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 14:37:18 (EST)
Email Address: cmw@netcomuk.co.uk

Message:
Just to add to the information about my Steinway upright, it measures 49 inches from the floor to the top of the lid, including the wheels. It has a five-bearer action, and the frame has a Capo D'Astro bar across the higher treble strings. Looking around on www.pianomart.com I found an 1897 Steinway model E upright which was quoted as being 48 inches high (no picture though). Does anyone know if this could be the same model as mine? I also found a 52 inch 1898 upright, so if two Steinway uprights made in 1897 and 1898 both had model numbers, could Cindi (see earlier posting) be mistaken in thinking that they didn't assign model numbers to uprights at that time?

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: David Burton
To: Chris Wright
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:40:25 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Might be a model N or a K. Cindi is in the business so she very well might be right that that far back Steinway didn't have model numbers attached to uprights. Nevertheless I've seen numbers N and K on Steinways that were that old and rebuilt. If you wanted to know its value, you could probably get as much as $8,000 for it in the right market but that would probably be the very high end for it. Definitely $6K, maybe $7K. It looks nice. Bet it is nice too.

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Chris
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 05:22:29 (EST)
Email Address: cmw@netcomuk.co.uk

Message:
Dear David, Thanks for your reply. As I said in my reply to Cindi, I have e-mailed Steinway about it. If they tell me anything interesting I will post it on this forum within this thread. Yes, it is a nice piano. And sorry, it's mine! And I'm _not_ selling it!! I paid 2200 UK pounds for it a year ago ($3500 at current exchange rates). So was that a good deal? It is light years better than my previous piano, which I learned to play on. It was a very old, worn-out, straight-strung, overdamped Kirkman which was bought for only 20 (twenty) UK pounds at auction, had three (!) cracks in the frame, but lasted 12 years!! Needless to say, my local piano dealer put it on the bonfire after I traded it in for the Steinway! Anway, thanks again for the reply. Chris.

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Cindi
To: Chris
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 19:24:34 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Dear David, Thanks for your reply. As I said in my reply to Cindi, I have e-mailed Steinway about it. If they tell me anything interesting I will post it on this forum within this thread. Yes, it is a nice piano. And sorry, it's mine! And I'm _not_ selling it!! I paid 2200 UK pounds for it a year ago ($3500 at current exchange rates). So was that a good deal? It is light years better than my previous piano, which I learned to play on. It was a very old, worn-out, straight-strung, overdamped Kirkman which was bought for only 20 (twenty) UK pounds at auction, had three (!) cracks in the frame, but lasted 12 years!! Needless to say, my local piano dealer put it on the bonfire after I traded it in for the Steinway! Anway, thanks again for the reply. Chris.
---
Dear Chris, The information I got was from Pierce Piano Altas. Your serial number is listed under those made in New York. It also mentions in the atlas that no model number was assigned to these uprights, so this info comes from that atlas. Double flanged actions were an experimental action Steinway made. They are very clunky and sticky. Obviously why they were removed from the manufacturing line. I think well of many rebuilt older uprights. My mention of this was only for value. Reason being, a complete rebuild on an old upright usually runs around $5,000.00. That usually shoots up a red flag, as to the total value invested including the purchase price, as to the resale value. That is the only reason I mentioned it. Cindi West Seymour West Piano Service

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Chris Wright
To: Cindi
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 15:35:45 (EST)
Email Address: cmw@netcomuk.co.uk

Message:
Dear Cindi, Thanks for your latest reply. I just posted a reply to it but something must have gone wrong because it didn't appear on the forum. So here goes again. Fair enought on the model assignment -- I'm not going to argue with your piano atlas. Thanks for finding out that it was made in New York. That's another piece information I can add to what I know about it. The action in mine is not clunky or sticky, in fact it's very fluid, not heavy and has lots of feel. I'm not considering having it rebuilt. It's too expensive and it doesn't really need it as it stays in tune and plays very well. So I'll leave it as it is. I'm not considering selling it in the near future either -- I'm only 22 and I hope it will last me for many years yet!! Anyway, thanks again for your reply. As I said to David Burton, if Steinway reply with any interesting information I will post it on this forum. Regards, Chris Wright.

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Cindi
To: Chris Wright
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:15:38 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Chris, Steinway was made in New York city after 1853. No model number was assigned to uprights. Seems like alot of time and money in and old Upright. Hope it's not a double flanged model. Lot of restoration for an upright that was basically built b-4 A-440 was standardized. Anyway, ebonizing was the finish then, and it was made in New York. How that answers your question C.D. West

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Chris Wright
To: Cindi
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 05:06:54 (EST)
Email Address: cmw@netcomuk.co.uk

Message:
Dear Cindi, Thanks for yor reply. So you don't think it could have been made in Hamburg? I live in England, so I wasn't sure whether it would have been American or German made. I have e-mailed Steinway about it (again) so I will see what they come back with. What's a double flanged model? What's wrong with them? It is tuned every 4-6 months to concert pitch. It stays there pretty well considering I play it for at least an hour every day. I bought it because it has a very responsive action and a great sound. I am very happy with it. I get the impression that you don't think much of old upright pianos... Anyway, thanks again for the reply. Chris.

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Andrew
To: Chris Wright
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 13:03:46 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Chris, Just curious. Can you really play the piano on a stool like the one in the picture? Andrew

Subject: Re: 1898 Steinway upright piano
From: Chris Wright
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 17:31:47 (EDT)
Email Address: cmw@netcomuk.co.uk

Message:
Andrew, It is possible to play using that stool, but difficult! I have a proper stool now. That picture was taken just after I bought the piano. The old stool I had was too high, so I had to use that modified office chair until I got a new one. I was hoping your reply would be somebody telling me what model it is, but never mind. Thanks anyway! Chris.

Subject: Bass strings resonating with Middle C
From: Sue
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 08:59:25 (EST)
Email Address: loudon@key-net.net

Message:
What I thought to be a damper difficulty on middle C of my Steinway K-52 has turned out to be to be a resonating of bass strings when middle C is played. My tech was unable to locate the exact source. It does not to appear to be associated with any single bass string damper problem and does not occur with the playing of any other note. All of you wonderful techs out there who respond to this forum on a regular basis...HELP! What might be causing this?

Subject: Re: Bass strings resonating with Middle C
From: David Burton
To: Sue
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:43:06 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I've read this over many times to see what I really thought it was and I still think it's an action regulation problem. Somehow or another those bass strings are not behaving the way they should, some adjustment of the dampers, the damper pedal, etc. might correct the problem. If your tech can't fix it, try another tech. I know how annoying these little things can be. Sometimes I've put up with a small sound for months until I can figure out what it is. I don't fix pianos though. I rely on others who can and I strongly suggest you follow my example. If you aren't a trained tech you can often do more harm than good.

Subject: Re: Bass strings resonating with Middle C
From: sue
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 06:05:55 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
David, Thank you for responding. It sounds like it may be quite a puzzle. I certainly will NOT be attempting any adjustments myself, but will be running any thoughts I receive past my tech when he returns in a next week to tune. OBTW...When do you find time to play the piano with the time you spend contributing to this web site? Just wondering.

Subject: Re: being a fast learner etc.
From: David Burton
To: sue
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 11:19:16 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I spend about two hours a day at least practicing. Sometimes I am a fast learner and sometimes not. I take great care in the beginning stages of learning a piece as any mistaken notes become so easily ingrained as to force me to unlearn which is very time consuming and frustrating. It is in fact this early careful SLOW sight-reading on a piano which I keep in tune that allows me to make sufficient progress that after a while I have the thing down by memory. It isn't all that fast but my method eventually results in what I want to achieve which is conceptual command. For all the rest, I guess I am faster at the computer than at the piano.

Subject: Re: Bass strings resonating with Middle C
From: Andrew
To: sue
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 10:49:34 (EST)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
I'd take a guess here. David probably is a fast learner. Quite a few piano students back in the days when I was taking piano lessons with my teacher were VERY quick learners as far as notes are concerned. One young lady did finish Chopin Concerto No.1's first movement within one week with it completely memorized and up to tempo. Her son is like her in this aspect who later on became a prize winner in Cliburn competition. Another young man who never experienced any technical difficulties or frustrations on the piano keyboard once sight-read very slowly twice in a roll through Liszt Spanish Rhapsody. The third time around he just zapped through the piece with much fanfare and aplomb. I was the eye-witness sitting next to the piano. Go and figure that out! He later on also ended up a Cliburn prize winner. There are quick learners that will make NORMAL learners like me quivering with envy! David probably is one of those fast learners. Andrew

Subject: Good deal?
From: Lewis
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 00:25:55 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
hi guys.. sorry it's me again :( i've juz been offered a good deal on some baby grands by my dealer: a KAWAI KF-1=$16k++ (5'5 grand) a KAWAI GM-2=$12k++ (5' baby grand_) a KAWAI RX-1=$18k++ (5'5 grand)-better quality than KF-1 and a YAMAHA GP1=$12.5k++ i'm considering all these on my buying list but if u guys were me,,which one were you choose?? i'm not for uprights as i feel that uprights are a little bit inferior to the grands..is there any other brands or types of piano u guys would recommend?? thanx so much :0

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Joy
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:42:11 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
hi guys.. sorry it's me again :( i've juz been offered a good deal on some baby grands by my dealer: a KAWAI KF-1=$16k++ (5'5 grand) a KAWAI GM-2=$12k++ (5' baby grand_) a KAWAI RX-1=$18k++ (5'5 grand)-better quality than KF-1 and a YAMAHA GP1=$12.5k++ i'm considering all these on my buying list but if u guys were me,,which one were you choose?? i'm not for uprights as i feel that uprights are a little bit inferior to the grands..is there any other brands or types of piano u guys would recommend?? thanx so much :0
---
On an entirely different matter: How did you paste that frown gif onto this website? Can you attach it to anyone's email, too?

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Niles Duncan
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:20:06 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
If I were considering spending $18K on a piano I would start checking out rebuilt Steinways and Mason & Hamlins. Of course bear in mind when reading that comment that I make a good part of my living from rebuilding and selling vintage Steinways, so I do have a bias. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Andrew
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 13:15:25 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Niles, I have a question for you. I have this 1924 Steinway M I cherished a great deal. It was expertly rebuilt in 1995 when I bought it. The only thing I'd like to do to it is a decent refinish job. Could you please let me know how much it will cost? Just a rough estimate. Your answer will be greatly appreciated. If you prefer you can use my e-mail address. Thanks in advance. I visited your business WEB site. The pianos are impressive. M&B BB and Steinway A look like real gems. Andrew

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Tom
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 22:51:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Niles, As a rebuilder of Steinways, I would like your impression of a recent offer made to me by a Steinway rebuilder in Atlanta who was referred to me by my teacher and who has been rebuilding Steinways for institutions for years. I have no reason to question his ability or integrity. He will rebuild (new soundboard, tuning block, Steinway action, strings) a Model L for me that he has in his shop. I do not know its age yet. The deal is that I would pay a few hundred dollars to have right of first refusal once the rebuild is done. He said the cost of the piano after it is rebuilt will be approximately $26,000. If I don't want it, he will sell it to someone else. Let me tell you my concerns: 1. Is the price range too high? 2. He is rebuilding a Steinway that he bought in the Atlanta market, and I have been told that over the years Atlanta has not gotten the best of the factory made Steinways. Other markets -- New York, LA, San Francisco and European capitals -- come first. 3. Should I be trying to find a quality rebuilder in a larger, more 'mature' market and incur additional shipping costs? 4. If the piano is a true, complete rebuild, am I really getting a Steinway? Thank you for your thoughts.

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Niles Duncan
To: Tom
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 03:30:29 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Tom, I'll go through your questions by the numbers. 1. Is the price too high? With a new soundboard on the East Coast market no. It's at the high end of what I would consider the acceptable price range for what he is offering, but I would still consider it an acceptable price. 2. ...I have been told that over the years Atlanta has not gotten the best of the factory made Steinways. ... I've heard the 'best years' theory of choosing a Steinway, but the 'best geography' criterion is a new one on me. Whether or not this is true, it's irrelevant. After a piano has received a new soundboard, new pinblock, and new action it's not going to matter an iota whether or not this piano was the pick of the litter when it came out of the factory new 70 or so years ago. Everything of consequence in the piano is new, so what matters is the skill and thoroughness of the rebuilder now, not what it may or may not have been back in the dawn of time. 3. Should I be trying to find a quality rebuilder in a larger, more 'mature' market ...? Not necessarily. If this rebuilder is good, there may be no reason not to buy from him. However if you are making a purchase of this size that you are going to live with for a long time even if you do end up buying from this man you should do some serious research over as wide an area as is realistic for you and check out as many pianos as is possible. This experience will give you more background to develop your taste and discrimination and to make a good choice, and will give you more confidence in the selection that you finally make. Don't rush into anything. Since he is only asking a few hundred dollars for first bite at it when it is finished you don't have much at risk if the end result isn't to your liking and you decide to pass on it. If you end up not liking the finished piano will he give you your earnest money back? If you decide to do some searching out of your geographical area and want to know about what I have to offer, please email me privately. 4. If the piano is a true, complete rebuild, am I really getting a Steinway? This gets more into personal philosophy. To me a Steinway or Mason & Hamlin or Bechstein, or other prime quality piano is something more than a collection of parts. It is an expression of the aesthetic values of its creators through engineering and design, and a unique sound, feel, and performance. These things can't be expressed well by a worn out original. If the restored piano exhibits these characteristics then it is a successful restoration and is as much or more a Steinway or whatever other piano we might be rebuilding as one that is original. There are differences in philosophy among rebuilders. For example we have Steinway purists who would say that unless you use Steinway action parts the result is not a Steinway. On the other hand I am one of those who say that since the current Steinway parts differ in weight and in some cases in geometry from the parts used in the vintage pianos we are rebuilding it's better to use parts by other makers that are made to match more closely the vintage Steinway parts. We argue endlessly about these things, and the pianos also reflect the individuality of the rebuilders. Eventually the customer has to decide what he likes for himself and go with it. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Tom
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:46:03 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Niles: Thank you very much for your thoughtful reply. I'm not sure whether I would get my earnest money back if I decided not to buy the piano, but I will find out before I make any deal. Since I have no time or geographic restrictions in making this purchase, I will E-mail you directly to get more information about rebuilt Steinways. Tom

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Mat D.
To: Tom
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 10:34:44 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Take a look at new Mason & Hamlin 5'8', it can be had for less than $26k, in fact one of our own people here just bought a Mason & Hamlin BB (7') for $31k
---
you can't beat that!

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Niles Duncan
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:42:39 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Take a look at new Mason & Hamlin 5'8', it can be had for less than $26k, in fact one of our own people here just bought a Mason & Hamlin BB (7') for $31k
---
you can't beat that!
---
Am I understanding you correctly? A dealer selling a new Mason & Hamlin A for under $26K and a new BB for $31K?????? This is hard to believe. Are you sure the BB for $31K was new? Where? Maybe I'll go buy a few. Niles Duncan

Subject: Re: Aeolean Baby Grand
From: Niles Duncan
To: Walt
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:35:51 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
For an older American baby grand piano i.e. 1920's, 1930's by a maker of no distinction in more or less original condition on the private market in my area asking prices in the range of $1000 - $2000 are typical. The ones near $1000 sell, the ones nearer to $2000 take longer to sell and appear in the classified ads week after week. Aeolian is a maker of no distinction, but I wouldn't say bottom of the barrel. The dealer's comments are either ignorant or deceitful (probably both) and sound to me like he is trying to scare you away from this piano and into his shop so that he can try to sell you one of his, which in this price range will be no better, but he will tell you that it's by a maker who was committed to absolute quality. One thousand dollars is probably a fair price for this piano, however pianos in this price range are typically fairly well worn out, so it is very advisable to have a technician inspect it and give you an accurate evaluation of its condition. You need to know what is worn out and what isn't, what needs immediate attention, and what you can live with. It's good that unlike some buyers you are asking questions first and writing the check later. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles, CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Tom
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 22:08:10 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Niles: You have certainly established your bona fides with me. My experience today with pricng on a new M&H coincides with your questions. I hope these deep discounts are available, but will wait and see. Your thoughts on rebuildng the Steinway and its cost is consistent with advice I have been getting. Thanks for your insight and candor. Tom

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Tom
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:22:54 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat: I appreciate your suggestion about the 5'8' Mason & Hamlin. I have gotten the literature on it from M&H, but haven't played one yet. I am trying to get to an M&H dealer this afternoon. My only question is that I have read so many postings about getting a grand piano that is large enough. It seems that knowledgable people think the additional few inches makes a noticeable difference. I will be listening for myself as I continue my search. Thanks again for your interest and suggestion. Tom

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Mat D.
To: Tom
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 19:48:47 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Tom, I personally own a M&H BB but the 5'8' is also a beautiful piano. I would not recommend many smaller pianos, but the Mason & Hamlin is a winner; I think you'll agree after playing one. Please let us know when you play one. Did I give you this info before?
---

---

---

---
-http://www.masonhamlin.com/ or call Cecil Ramirez (National Sales Dir.) (916) 567-9999 ext.118 Tell him Mat from Detroit gave you the info--He'll remember me.

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Tom
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:57:50 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat: I visited the M&H dealer in Atlanta today and played the 5'8'. I was very impressed. It is pricey, though. The list price was $37,000, and the dealer's offer with my trade-in of a two year old Yamaha P2 (cost approx. $5,000) was still $29,000. A new Yamaha C3 has been offered with trade-in at $20,000 or less. A completely rebuilt Steinway has been offered at approximately $26,000 without considering trade-in. (It has not been rebuilt yet, so I don't know the quality.) I am willing to pay for quality. I just don't want to overpay several thousand dollars without reason. I read on these postings that a new 7' M&H sold for $31,000 with no mention of a trade-in. How do I get a reasonable price with my trade-in? Should I search for another dealer and negotiate shipping costs? I am sure that I can get a technician who can help me and, if necessary, inspect the piano before purchase. Thaks for your help. Tom

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Mat D.
To: Tom
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:26:24 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Tom, see above post. If you are a good negotiator, you can save quite a bit of money. I bought my M&H BB last year with a trade-in deal. I traded a Schimmel 5'1' (1952) plus $21,500 in cash and went home with a M&H BB. I drove a hard bargain and got lucky but it happened again a couple weeks ago to one of our own 'Piano Forumners' who bought a M&H BB for around that kind of money. Take a deep breath, go in & make an offer (you won't embarass yourself, what have you got to lose). I'd love to see more people buying this great instrument, that's why I'm passing the word! Good luck, Mat D. (e-mail me if you like)

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Niles Duncan
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:57:04 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Tom, see above post. If you are a good negotiator, you can save quite a bit of money. I bought my M&H BB last year with a trade-in deal. I traded a Schimmel 5'1' (1952) plus $21,500 in cash and went home with a M&H BB. I drove a hard bargain and got lucky but it happened again a couple weeks ago to one of our own 'Piano Forumners' who bought a M&H BB for around that kind of money. Take a deep breath, go in & make an offer (you won't embarass yourself, what have you got to lose). I'd love to see more people buying this great instrument, that's why I'm passing the word! Good luck, Mat D. (e-mail me if you like)
---
This pricing is pretty incredible, particularly when you consider that any rebuilder who has rebuilt a vintage BB that turned out well will be asking between $25K and $30K for it. This dealer is making very minimal profit. Are you having a piano price war where you live? Could his philosophy be I don't care if I barely make any money on a sale as long as I keep some other dealer from getting the sale? I wonder if I could get an even lower price from him if I offered to buy two and specified that he doesn't even have to take them out of the crate. Just put the crated pianos back on the truck and ship them to me. I'll sell them in Los Angeles for $35K apiece quickly, and everyone will be getting a real deal. Niles Duncan

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Mat D.
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 09:38:01 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Niles, I know the pricing is incredible but I'm only passing on what I have experienced. I know that this will not be available everywhere, but I wanted to encourage people to 'go for it' and get a great piano! Mat D.

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: David Burton
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:04:56 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Niles got close to answering this but I'd like a bit more precision from him if I may presume. Niles says about a rebuilt piano, in this case a Steinway, that, 'Everything of consequence in the piano is new, so what matters is the skill and thoroughness of the rebuilder now, not what it may or may not have been back in the dawn of time.' This being so, what earthly difference can there be between say a 6'2' Steinway rebuild and say a 6'4' Decker or Conover grand? This should prove interesting...

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: Niles Duncan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:34:48 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Niles got close to answering this but I'd like a bit more precision from him if I may presume. Niles says about a rebuilt piano, in this case a Steinway, that, 'Everything of consequence in the piano is new, so what matters is the skill and thoroughness of the rebuilder now, not what it may or may not have been back in the dawn of time.' This being so, what earthly difference can there be between say a 6'2' Steinway rebuild and say a 6'4' Decker or Conover grand? This should prove interesting...
---
Yes, this is a very interesting question. If I were to take this Decker Bros 6'4' grand and use it as a core, replacing soundboard and bridges and rescaling it would be possible to come up with something different. However there will be limits. The major one as far as rescaling the piano will be that the plate being an unchangeable component will severely limit how much I could change the shape and placement of the bridges. This means that in rescaling there will probably be little opportunity to make any significant changes in the speaking lengths of the strings and I will be mainly confined to altering the gauges of the strings in order to affect the tension and inharmonicities. Accepting this I could analyze the scale of the Steinway A and come as close as possible within the limitations placed on me by the fixed components of the Decker Bros. Then I could carefully examine the soundboard of the Steinway A and carry over as much as possible in terms of thickness and placement of ribs when making the new soundboard for the Decker Bros. These things may give me a new acoustic body that will sound more like the Steinway A than the original Decker Bros. However there are more limitations. The shape of the rim for one. Suppose that I decided that the curvature of the rim on the bass side placed the tenor end of the treble bridge too close to the stiff edge of the soundboard and rim than is optimal. There's nothing I can do about that. The rim is fixed so I can't change the shape to add some more soundboard area in that part of the piano. The plate is also fixed and will not give me much opportunity to change the position of the bridge. The thickness and composition of the rim will also be a factor in the sound that is produced by the piano. Since I will be experimenting it may take me several tries with scaling and soundboard design before I get it right. Does that give you some idea. It is possible though to get some big changes. Many years ago in a workshop we put a new soundboard into a lowly Kranich & Bach grand. In the process we thinned the new soundboard from the original dimensions. We also rescaled the piano giving it a higher tension scale than the original. It ended up a very live, aggressive sounding piano, quite different from the original. Would I be willing to do this on every piano of a lesser make that I rebuild? No. It doesn't make economic sense. Ultimately what most people will pay for a piano depends more on the name on the fallboard than the performance of the piano. Niles Duncan

Subject: Re: Good deal? Questions for Niles.
From: David Burton
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 22:16:20 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
First off, thanks Niles for your wonderful explanations concerning the differences and limitations in pianos from a rebuilding viewpoint. I think the bottom line you mentioned is that 'Ultimately what most people will pay for a piano depends more on the name on the fallboard than the performance of the piano.' This is so unfortunately true that some brands in my humble opinion have gotten perhaps more attention than they deserved while others, a few only, that might have been worthy contenders have been neglected. Nevertheless your description of the limitations of scaling and the added economic burden of doing it should give some people out there an idea of what considerations are involved. Some rebuilders out there insist on rescaling an old piano as part of their estimate. Of course they are attempting to improve the piano in some way, whether they want to try and make it sound like a Steinway or something else.

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Andrew
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 06:43:43 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
What you listed in your note, believe me, is definitely NO good deal like you think. To me I'd say these are BAD deal. I'm not kidding. Andrew

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: John Mason
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 06:25:52 (EDT)
Email Address: jomason@cba.ua.edu

Message:
The Kawai dealer in Birmingham, AL, priced the Kawai RX-1 piano, ebony finish, with PianoDisc system, including PianoDisc Symphony module and quality speakers, at approximately $18K plus tax. The $18K included delivery, setup, and tuning in my home. If the $18.1K quoted you on the RX-1 does not include PianoDisc, Symphony module, and speakers, then it is way overpriced.

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: David Burton
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 05:19:23 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Are you kidding? You're going to spend good money for those pianos? Check this out first. http://www.onofriopiano.com/petrof.htm#Petrof

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Mat D.
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 23:47:28 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
I agree with David
---
check the Petrof out, you won't be sorry.

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Lewis
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 23:35:02 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Maybe checking out on other brands would help,,but i myself is quite satisfied with the price...if i have to consider another brand,,it would better have be below $18k as tat's my budget..any other brands beside used and rebuilt M&H and Steinways tat i might consider?? Petrof might be a good choice but after hearing the dealer condemning the new petrof's on their quality,, i think i better shun from them..but plz bear in mind that i have room to accomodate at most a 5'5 grand..so i'm scouting around for the best baby grands on the market..hope u guys would comment.. thanks to all those who helped in this thread :)

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Andrew
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:07:31 (EDT)
Email Address: Andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Don't fall into the trap of the dealer's sales pitch. Petrov is a very fine piano. I personally would love to own another grand which is a Petrov 6'4' model. It will look and sound and play real rice together with my Steinway M. It had to wait for a while though. Again, Petrov is in every way a satisfying piano. Andrew

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Mat D.
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 10:37:54 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
The Ford dealer isn't going to have good things to say about Chevy.

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: Andrew
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 13:00:38 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Amen! Mat. Well done! Andrew

Subject: Re: Good deal?
From: David Burton
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 23:57:14 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
If I MUST have a baby grand, that is a 5'5' or shorter grand piano, then frankly there are really only two I'd even consider; the Petrof V and no they are not terrible quality, quite the contrary. I just had a report on Petrof from a source I trust, the man who works on my piano, and he told me they were wonderful pianos both to service and to play. The other choice would be a Baldwin M. If I really didn't care I'd go for a Chickering 410, they are all 4'10' long!! Or a Wurlitzer C153 which is an inch shorter than the Baldwin. If I went for a real baby grand, I'd also go with a pianodisk system because...... well just because.

Subject: GOOD DEAL??
From: Lewis
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 05:04:05 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
WHOA!!!It sure is tiring searching for a good and 'cheap' piano..but what abt considering the kawai's RX-1?? is it that other pianos are that bad that it loses to the Petrof V in every way??..i follow this logic: that 'no piano is perfect'. there are definetly some 'defects' and wonders in a particular make and brand right>?? and yes,, heeding David Burton's advice and many other wonderful ppl here, i went to try out the Petrof V..&.. BOY!! was i lucky or was i not!!! the dealer got the kawai RX-1 ,KF-1 and the GP1 all placed side by side for me to compare!!!and yes,,petrof emerged the winner but the KAWAI RX-1 trailed behind slightly and it this a GOOD DEAL??: A petrof V for $14k?? :)

Subject: Billberg
From: Eva Lundin
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:39:35 (EDT)
Email Address: eva.lundin@mailbox.swipnet.se

Message:

Subject: Re: Billberg
From: David Burton
To: Eva Lundin
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 06:10:33 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Billberg, Swedish piano maker from 1868 to 1928 then taken over by Malmsjo. Not many pianos made per year, might be good, might not, who knows. Of course probably small market for pianos in Sweden, not that many Swedes. Never were. Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.' Getting caught up. Someone's got to do it. Might as well be me.

Subject: McKannon Piano
From: Stephen J. Presley
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 07:06:23 (EDT)
Email Address: Stephen.Preslet@pope.af.mil

Message:
I have a McKannon Bros & Co grand upright piano mfg in Burlington Vt. How old is it? Do you have info on the Company or this piano? What is its value?

Subject: Re: McKannon Piano
From: David Burton
To: Stephen J. Presley
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:56:37 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
There was a McKannon Bros. Nothing else, no serial numbers. But here's some trivia. Maybe these guys couldn't spell. Maybe their pianos were made for special places. Honky-Tonk places. A McCammon is listed in New York around 1895. A McCammon same as Tonk is listed. A McCammon & Co. listed as early as 1835 in Albany, New York is listed. Wm. McCammon, probably related is making pianos in Albany in the 1870's. Another McCammon, Edward or Edwin has his names on pianos coming out of Albany. So we have the McCammon brothers, with a C, out of Albany, New York even though with a K they are listed but with nothing else. Tonk out of New York City basically buys out McCammon. I bet that McKammon Bros. Was built at Tonk's down on 35th St. in New York. What kind of piano are we talking about here? A Honky-Tonk piano of course!! What is its value? Hey they sold brand new for a song, literally. So maybe if everything works, a hundred dollars? If nothing works?

Subject: Re: McKannon Piano
From: Cork
To: Stephen J. Presley
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:19:44 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
If you post your piano's serial number someone with a Pierce Piano Atlas might be able to give you the age. The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.

Subject: Hardman, Peck & Co.
From: Dani
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 19:58:12 (EDT)
Email Address: frejya@pacbell.net

Message:
I just bought a baby grand piano from a woman in Pasadena that used to be an opera singer. I am interested in finding out how old the piano is and any other information I can get. The serial # is 97495 and it says 'Manufactured and Guaranteed by Hardman, Peck & Co. New York, Established 1842'. It also says 'Harrington' on the front.

Subject: Re: Hardman, Peck & Co.
From: David Burton
To: Dani
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:38:29 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Yeah I have gotten into just posting what Cork says about having your piano evaluated BEFORE you buy it or BEFORE you decide to sell it. But since you asked about your piano which you now own, here goes. As a Harrington the serial puts it at 1923 which is probably right. It was made in New York City at the Harrington plant on West 48th St. along with at around another 3,000 pianos that year in 1923. Hardman started up in 1842, later Hardman Peck & Co. controlled Harrington and the whole shebang went to Aeolian and their names were made out of their plant in Memphis, Tennessee. The principle business of these folks was to produce foot powered player pianos. Now I have heard it said but never seen or played one that a few of the largest Hardman grands are rally good or at least worth having rebuilt. I guess anything is possible but I am skeptical. One of the things that can happen though I don't know If Hardman Pecks are in this pack, is that when a grand is made into a player, certain things get changed, the scaling sometimes, sometimes the keybeds the keys getting excessively long. Now not all grands that were made into players or made as player grands suffer from these things so I don't want people to think so just because I am aware of some that do (including Steinways, oh dear!). Harringtons abound out here where I am and frankly none of them are worth a damn. Yours might be different but you said it was a baby grand and if so, a piano around 5'3' or shorter, I doubt it. I am admittedly prejudiced against baby grands. Oh well. There you are.

Subject: Re: Hardman, Peck & Co.
From: Cork
To: Dani
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:37:10 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.

Subject: Everett Piano Co.
From: Minnie Gator
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 21:19:21 (EDT)
Email Address: mobcentral@webtv.net

Message:
I own an Everett piano which I love. I would like to know more about the company that manufactured them and the quality of my piano. I was able to find out by the serial number that it was built in 1958 but I would like to know more. It is in excellent condition and has the most beautiful, rich sound. Please help me find out more about it! Minnie Gator

Subject: Re: Everett Piano Co.
From: David Burton
To: Minnie Gator
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:18:50 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Everett started in Boston in the late 1880's, moved to Michigan where it lived for many years, also produced Cable Nelson, was indeed bought out by Yamaha in the early 1970's, the plant moved to Georgia and was closed thereafter. No more Everetts. Yours was probably built in the Michigan plant and is similar in sound, works, scaling, etc. to a Cable Nelson. Not too bad, not to great. A good piano for the money. If everything works probably comparable to a Baldwin Accrosonic of the same period. Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an EXPERIENCED PIANO TECHNICIAN. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Re: Everett Piano Co.
From: fletch
To: Minnie Gator
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 12:24:25 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
just found info on everett looking for something else. They were bought out by Yamaha, and last one was made in 1989. Yamaha is a good piano, so...no need to worry, it is a moderately priced piece of furniture made originally for the moderate income family with a reasonably good quality sound for the money. They have an excellent tone!

Subject: Re: Everett Piano Co.
From: fletch
To: Minnie Gator
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 11:57:03 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Minnie, I believe Everett Piano is no longer in business. They got bought out by another company, I don't remember who, but look on the web for major piano manufacturers and you many be able to find out the history. I used to have an Everett and really loved it also. Just recently purchased a Kawaii Baby grand, my 1st. Love it. It is a good quality piano, no doubt in my mind. Try typing in a search for Everett and see what you come up with.

Subject: Alexander Bogs
From: Yaron
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 16:22:55 (EDT)
Email Address: yaron@metzag.co.il

Message:
Looking for any kind of information regarding ALEXANDER BOGS pianos.

Subject: Re: Alexander Bogs
From: David Burton
To: Yaron
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:07:25 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
No Alexander Bogs. Alexander by itself has some relation to the Estey company at Bluffton, Indiana. Bogs by itself has only an association with Bogs & Voigt in Berlin around 1905. Could the Estey gang have been involved with this company in Germany? It's possible but it would have been before B. K. Settergren moved Estey out of New York and into Bluffton, and then knowing how pianos get their names, they could have invented something like Alexander Bogs. A piano of note? Nope. But Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Ludden and Bates
From: Mike
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 11:44:09 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Do you have any information on the Ludden and Bates brand of piano? How old are they and quality. The one I have seen is a Cabinate Grand / Player piano. Made in Atlanta.

Subject: Re: Ludden and Bates
From: David Burton
To: Mike
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 04:52:01 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Ludden & Bates was in fact in SAVANNAH, Georgia between at least 1885 and probably no later than the mid 20's if that. Serial number info is sparse but output can't have been very much either, around 800 instruments in the five years between 1885 and 1890. Some of these were made by Story & Clark who if you know their story (no pun intended) may actually have been made by someone else. Some others were made by Mathushek, a big New York piano maker from 1865 through 1958! During the same years they turned out something like just udner 7,000 instruments. It's beginning to look like Ludden & Bates might have been a warehouse in Savannah, GA rather than a real piano maker. Their pianos? Probably nothing special that's for sure. One right now? A few hundred dollars at the very most, everything working. But Re: Cork, 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Re: Ludden and Bates
From: M&M
To: Mike
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 00:14:33 (EDT)
Email Address: iwitnessjc@juno.com

Message:
I have never even heard of this brand. Has anyone out there heard of this Ludden and Bates? Now you have me interested in this one.

Subject: Pleyel pianos
From: Eric
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 20:29:13 (EDT)
Email Address: swiech76@yahoo.com

Message:
I was wondering if Pleyel and Erard still make pianos, and how are they rated these days.

Subject: Re: ERARD
From: David Burton
To: Eric
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 04:32:42 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I decided to look up Erard and found out quite a lot. First of all yes they are still in business. They seem to have some kind of arrangement with Schimmel in Germany all right. They are since 1960 a merger between Erard and Gaveau, two of the three big names in French piano building, the other being Pleyel which is still going as an independent. Erard was started in 1777 making it among the oldest companies of its kind in continuous operation. The founder was forced by the French revolution to re-establish himself in London where he did quite well. The firm went back to France in the late 19th century where it remains. While in London the firm established itself as the premiere maker of fine harps a business it is still engaged in. Erard made many innovations in piano technology over the years. The most interesting fact however is that they were the longest hold out on the straight strung scaling design. They didn't sell many of these as they were very long pianos and many people then as now just didn't have the space for them. But I am told that they are still around and one occasionally gets to see or play one, mostly on the European side of the pond. One chap I knew in Connecticut says he'd love to get one to rebuild. They regularly start at around 6'5' and are from 1875 all the way up through 1899. And yes, an Erard piano is usually a very nice piano and worth a rebuild if they are large enough. They rounded their numbers up until about 1957. But spot checking, in 1923 they made fewer than 1,500 instruments, in 1935 fewer than 500, in 1945 fewer than 300, in 1955 fewer than 400. In 1987 there were only 20 instruments bearing the Erard name!!! I don't know whether harps were included in these serial numbers or not. So you can see that Erards are pretty rare.

Subject: Re: Pleyel pianos
From: Sue
To: Eric
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 06:24:25 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Hi Eric I ran into Pleyel pianos in Orchard Park (Buffalo) NY while on my search for Schimmel uprights. Here is an interesting note...Schimmel made Pleyels for a period of time and into the early 90's. I guess they liked the Schimmel design of cabinetry because they were identical to the unique designs of the Schimmel. As far as quality, I think they are a very good piano albeit expensive...13K for their 51' upright. I found the touch to be lighter than the Schimmel and Steinway and the sound brighter. It was the dealers opinion that Pleyel voiced their America bound pianos intentionally that way, implying that we would find a mellower piano in France. As many have said, touch and tone is a very personal thing and only you can decide. If you like it then you must decide if the Pleyel is worth the added cost.

Subject: F. Geiger piano info
From: Jim Chapman
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:28:43 (EDT)
Email Address: Olblackdog@aol.com

Message:
I own an antique upright piano made by F. GEIGER in Berlin.(circa 1850) Does anyone have ANY information about this piano manufacturer?

Subject: Re: F. Geiger piano info
From: David Burton
To: Jim Chapman
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 04:04:44 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Nope,you might have the only one. Geiger not listed in the Pierce Piano Atlas, neither Gieger if by mistake. Sure you have it spelled right?

Subject: Petrof uprights
From: StephenP
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 13:12:49 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have narrowed down my search for an upright to the Petrof 125 or 131, the latter being an expensive option for me if I am disappointed by the 125s. The sole Petrof dealer in my country was intrigued to hear of The Piano Book and agrees with its advice as relayed by me - he had previously made some of the right noises and his service department seems enthusiastic if overworked. Anyway, he has agreed to very fully prep at least two 125s for me so I can discover what the things CAN sound like at their best. I will bring as reputable and independent a technician as I can find to look over any piano I may choose. I don't want a Japanese piano, having heard lots of them. Questions: are Petrof 125s especially problematic and are the 131s, complete with Renner actions, a much safer bet for long-term ownership? Thanks for any help. StephenP

Subject: Re: Petrof uprights
From: David Burton
To: StephenP
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:55:33 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I strongly support the value of Petrof pianos. I think they are very good for the money. If I owned one I'd like it to have a Renner action. Renner actions are not the silver bullet. There are many other actions that are acceptable and well made. But Renner actions have the following characteristics; they are made to be adjusted and they seem to be more solidly made with less side to side sloppiness than some others. I believe that a Renner action may very well hold up longer over time than many others. I happen to like Baldwin actions, especially on the L, the R is ok too, and on the SF and SD. But I think that Baldwin may even have gone to getting their high end actions from Renner. I like Steinway actions especially those on pianos before they were a CBS subsidiary and got their actions from Aeolian and after when they were no longer under CBS and they again went back to their own actions. I don't much care for actions that are too light, spongy or sloppy. Yamaha actions are even ok, one of the reasons I thought about getting one. I played a few Petrof uprights a few months back and was pleased more by the way they played than by the way they sounded, but I liked the way they sounded too. I don't think any of them were fully preped in fact I was told they were not. I know that if I had bought one, I'd have planned on having it preped by my own technician and gotten it to sound and play the way I wanted. Ifthe action were a Renner I'd have more options. So would you.

Subject: Need info Clarendon Uprights
From: Karl N
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 15:39:15 (EDT)
Email Address: knelso2@lsu.edu

Message:
Does anybody have any information about Clarendon uprights? I have 'inherited' a nice dated 1915 from Rockford, IL, and I would love to know more about it. I know the company was started by a guy named Haddorff, possibly from the furniture company? Anything else anyone could offer would be gravy to what I already have. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Need info Clarendon Uprights
From: David Burton
To: Karl N
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:37:48 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Clarendon was established in Rockford, Ill in 1901. They ran up until the Great Depression. Also connected with Karl Zeck pianos. Haddorf was the parent company also at Rockford but was itself controlled by Krakaur in New York. Haddorf managed to keep going until 1960. Since the facts are somewhat conflicting we can assume that Haddorf was set up with the help of Krakauer and that one of their lines was Clarendon. OK, so you have a mid-period classic upright out of a Chicago piano factory that managed to keep going until 1960. In 1915 Haddorf may have made close to 5,000 pianos. Clarendon's numbers are rounded up so their output was something less than 5,000 pianos. But we're still looking at the output of a fully operating piano factory cranking out probably more than 10,000 pianos a year that are made to sell for a few hundred dollars apiece. Is your piano anything special? I don't think so. But if everything still works and if an evaluation by an independent piano tech confirms that you still have things like tuning stability, acceptable hammers, etc. then if you like it, keep it. But honestly it's not worth more than a couple hundred dollars even if everything works and next to nothing if everything doesn't work. I wouldn't sink much money into it if I were you.

Subject: Old Chickering Grand (Opinions)
From: Regi
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 00:48:05 (EST)
Email Address: rhedahl@hotmail.com

Message:
I recently acquired a Chickering Grand piano that I would like to get an opinion on whether or not it has any potential. I measured it as being 5'8' in length and on the plate the serial number says 123478 which someone said it was made around 1914. The plate also has raised letters that say 'The Anniversary Grand', 'Chickering & Sons'. Some of the unusual traits I noticed about this piano are, some of the bass notes have 3 wound strings per note instead of the unusual 2, the bend on the case located on the treble section right above the front right leg is bent much sharper than a modern piano, the iron plate doesn’t extend all the way to the edge of the case on the curved side of the piano, and the bass bridge doesn’t have an apron like many newer pianos. Some of the problems just looking at it are, the bridge is cracked for the highest 3 or 4 notes, and all the mahogany veneer is delaminating. When I first got the piano, the straight part of the rim was bowed out about 2 inches but I was able to straighten it out with much pulling and clamping. I don’t know why the rim was bowed out but maybe from the lid being up all the time and the humidity from Florida. As far as playing the piano, the bass is very clear and powerful, but the notes E 5 and up are weak and without sustain. I suspect that it could be a soundboard problem or worn out hammers. As far as tuning stability, it holds it tune real well. I hope that this is enough information to tell whether or not if the piano is worth putting any money into. I’m a pianist and I’m much more concerned about the sound than the piano looking like pristine furniture.

Subject: Re: Old Chickering Grand (Opinions)
From: David Burton
To: Regi
Date Posted: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 03:16:49 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Well, how interesting! Of course I'm going to suggest that, yes, you get AN INDEPENDENT PIANO TECH to evaluate the condition of your piano. Yes the serial makes it a 1914 piano all right. You seem to have seen some things about it already. It's too bad that you fiddled with the bowed out rim. And maybe the condition of the rim would argue strongly against doing anything to regain this instrument I don not know. Humidity is the demon enemy of pianos, either too much or too little will eventually wreck a great piano. It might be that this fine old piano is beyond reclaiming. I'm going to suggest that you contact me off the forum for a suggestion as to someone to contact about it.

Subject: Replacing my Sohmer Grand
From: Curt
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 23:50:41 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have recently decided to replace my 1916 Sohmer Grand. First, I don't have a clue what it is worth, or how to go about selling it at a good price. It is in great shape. Excellent mahogany case, perfect oribinal ivory keys, and has been consistently tuned and cared for. I have to admit though that it is getting a little sloppy in the bass. I believe that it is 5'7'. Any ideas on value or best method of sellimg. Second question: I was pretty prepared to purchase a new Baldwin R (5'8') but spent some time with a Petroff dealer who trashed the Baldwin so thouroughly that it shook my confidence. Did I get a hard sell, or has Baldwin really gone down the drain?

Subject: Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand
From: David Burton
To: Curt
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:20:11 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Cork is right! A Sohmer grand of that vintage kept in as good a shape as I'm sure you have done is a worthy candidate for a rebuild. I'd recommend someone to you if you live in the Northeast but not on the forum, you'll have to e-mail me. Now as far as Baldwin and Petrof go, I'm sorry that the Petrof piano dealer felt he had to trash Baldwin. But Baldwin has long been the 'Rodney Dangerfield' of American pianos and it's just got to stop. If rebuilding were not a serious option for you the Baldwin R would be a fine choice. But rebuilding your piano really makes more sense because a good classic Sohmer is a sweet piano. I'm thinking about what it would sound like with a rescaling and a set of nice Ari Isaac hammers. Oh my yes..... The Petrof iV is a supurb piano too, but properly rebuilt yours would probably clobber both pianos you've mentioned.

Subject: Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand
From: Curt
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 22:20:36 (EST)
Email Address: appledaddy@webtv.net

Message:

Subject: Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand
From: Andrew
To: Curt
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 09:51:09 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
The market value of any given piano has quite a bit to do with where you live in addition to the make of the piano and its condition, etc. Most piano dealers or decent piano techs do piano price appraisals for a fee. You might want to give it a try. It will be hard to give you a good idea regarding the value on the Internet without being able to look at and play on your piano. Boston grands have been and still are fine instruments. Shame on that Petrof dealer! Cork or David can give you much more indepth info on Boston grands. Andrew

Subject: Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand
From: Andrew
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:23:11 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Oops! I meant to say Baldwin pianos. I apologize. Andrew

Subject: Re: Replacing my Sohmer Grand
From: Cork
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 10:04:16 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Andrew's right: I'd say your best bet is to find a good piano technician to give you an appraisal. If you generally have one tech maintain your instrument, he or she would be a good start. After all, no one knows the condition of your piano better than the tech that maintains it. As for the Petrof dealer, that sort of negative selling is unfortunately all too prevalent. Both the Petrof Model IV and the Baldwin Model R are fine instruments. From what I can tell, Baldwin's quality in the Artist grands is actually improving as the company belatedly attempts to restore its image. However, you might be doing yourself a disservice by not considering having your instrument completely rebuilt. It's likely to be less expensive than buying a new piano, and the final result could well be better than any of the new pianos. For one thing you sure won't be buying any new instruments with ivory keys. You do need to research any rebuilder very carefully, of course . . . Cork

Subject: Need people's input. Please read and respond.
From: Jason
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 19:58:22 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I posted a message earlier about which piano concerto to learn next, and thank you to all of you who replied. As for those who were wondering why I was quitting piano for four years, I've decided to try to take a lighter course load. That way, I don't have to give so much time to academics and devote some time to piano. You guys were right, after all; I really shouldn't give up piano like that. But I still want to learn a piano concerto right now, and I still cannot decide which one to choose. I have narrowed my choices down to the Grieg piano concerto or the Schumann. Could somebody help me choose between these two? I really can't decide. I feel like learning something difficult and rewarding. So which of these two piano concertos is the more difficult? And which of these piano concertos is the more rewarding? I would appreciate anybody's input on this question. Thank you, Jason

Subject: Re: Need people's input. Please read and respond.
From: David Burton
To: Jason
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 18:35:33 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Which concerto between the Schumann and the Grieg? I'm going to agree with Matt D and suggest the Schumann but for different reasons. Actually the Schumann is the easier of the two in both technical strength required and natural pianism; where the piece actually lies on the keyboard. But the other thing about the Schumann is that of the two, any budding classical virtuoso pianist should know it and it presents a wonderful means of preparing for the Brahms concertos. The Grieg on the other hand is more like preparing for the Rachmaninoff concertos. Yeah the Grieg concerto might be 'hackneyed' as Matt says, but I fault it for another reason; formalistically it's forshortened in the first movement, a stylistic tendency that was followed by such as George Gershwin in his Concerto in F subtitled 'The New York Concerto'. What you have in both is that the second theme never gets a repeat in the recapitulation. Actually in the Grieg it's as though he builds to a big dramatic development that's nothing more than a restatement of the first theme and then goes right into a coda. I feel cheated every time I hear this piece. But it's really not that bad. Rachmaninoff liked it. My thoughts on both of these, hope this helps.

Subject: Re: Need people's input. Please read and respond.
From: Mat D.
To: Jason
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 00:12:21 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Jason, Congratulations, you've made a wise choice; it's a long life (hopefully) and to give up the piano would be a life sentence. As for the concerto, I personally would learn the Schumann. They (the Grieg & the Schumann) are both great works but the Schumann is a little less hackneyed-and possibly a little more difficult. Best of luck in both your academic & musical life! Mat D.

Subject: Stultz & Bauer
From: Marian
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 07:52:10 (EST)
Email Address: MrsFabulous@aol.com

Message:
Looking for info re Stultz and Bauer upright grand- history, age, value- all keys and pedals in working order-beautiful tone- would appreciate any info

Subject: Re: Stultz & Bauer
From: David Burton
To: Marian
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 17:57:02 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Stultz & Bauer established in New York in 1880 have had a close relationship with Kohler & Campbell since 1928, also with Brambach. They are a sort of average middling good American piano, some old uprights may be all right, some grands if large enough might be even better. We always say this, you might have done this already, but getting any old or used piano inspected by an independent piano tech who will look for cracks where you and I would miss them is certainly a must. Also they will look for building practices that make the piano cheaper to build and consequently not as good such as making soundboards out of smaller pieces, vertical bracing, etc. What is an old upright of this make worth in reasonably good condition, every note working? Not more than a few hundred dollars. Let's face it that's basically what they sold for back then anyway, unless they were a Steinway.

Subject: piano
From: george r hancock
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 22:27:45 (EDT)
Email Address: hancock@intellex.com

Message:
AM TRYING TO FIND INFO ON A BABY GRAND PIANO MADE BY GEORGE STRECK & CO (LONDON-NY-BERLIN). IT HAS A LOGO THAT READS THE _ELLIAN COMPANY. I CANNOT MAKE OUT THE FIRST LETTER OF THE COMPANY. ANY INFO ON WHAT IT IS WORTH WOULD BE APPRECIATED

Subject: Re: piano EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS
From: David Burton
To: george r hancock
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 03:22:42 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Everyone seems to have some very old or obscure 'baby grand' that they want appraised. In this case a George Steck even one from England is not that obscure but the point has not apparently stuck in this forum. Please be advised that serious buyers in the used piano market are looking for pianos that work, pianos that have characteristics that can compare favorably with what they can buy in the new piano market usually for much less, pianos that might be considered first pianos again expressly cheaper than new or pianos that can be acquired for very little money that the buyer intends to have completely rebuilt. In all cases old pianos are expected to sell for cheaper and in some cases MUCH cheaper than new ones. They should sell for cheaper than new too, because no matter how 'classic' or 'rare' such pianos may be they are in fact still OLD and many of their parts are in need of replacement as they are worn out. And finally baby grands are specifically grand pianos that are 5'3' and shorter as measured from the keyboard to the back end of the piano right along their spines or backs. These pianos are NOT serious instruments as some would like to believe. They should not be considered by a serious musician, they do not usually pay to have rebuilt. They were not great musical instruments when new. Very few if any of the new 'baby grands' sold are either.

Subject: Re: piano EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS
From: Andrew
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 13:59:49 (EST)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
David, Let me say an out and loud 'Thank You' for your great service for all the posters on this board. Andrew

Subject: ditto nt
From: Mat D.
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 17:56:26 (EST)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
..

Subject: Piano Tech Thoughts Needed
From: sue
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 15:57:20 (EST)
Email Address: loudon@key-net.net

Message:
What I thought to be a damper difficulty with middle C on my Steinway K-52 has turned out to be a resonating of bass strings when middle C is played, and to a much less significant degree with B and A directly below the C. My tech was unable to pinpoint the source. It does not appear to be associated with any single bass string damper problem. Please help! What might be causing this?

Subject: Piano Tech Thoughts Needed
From: sue
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 15:57:06 (EST)
Email Address: loudon@key-net.net

Message:
What I thought to be a damper difficulty with middle C on my Steinway K-52 has turned out to be a resonating of bass strings when middle C is played, and to a much less significant degree with B and A directly below the C. My tech was unable to pinpoint the source. It does not appear to be associated with any single bass string damper problem. Please help! What might be causing this?

Subject: Meister Piano
From: C. Simopoulos
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 15:44:53 (EDT)
Email Address: cns01.exrch@mayo.edu

Message:
Has anyone every heard of a 'Meister' piano?

Subject: Re: Meister Piano
From: David Burton
To: C. Simopoulos
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 02:08:36 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
A Meister piano was advertised as sold directly to the public from the factory for $175; $1 a week or $5 a month in 1912. They were made by a company called Rothchild in Chicago, presumably not connected in any way with the famous family of international financiers but who knows. So go figure,what's one worth today? Probably not much.

Subject: THE Piano
From: Phillip Henderson
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:07:21 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
As of yesterday, I am the proud owner of a Mason and Hamlin BB Grand, all seven magnificent feet of it. This is truly a marvelous instrument. I was blessed to find a dealer who had both Yamaha nad Steinway in his store for me to compare. Thanks to all for your adivce. And to anyone considering a Steinway B, please do yourself the biggest favor of your musical life, and go play a Mason & Hamlin Grand.

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: David Burton
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:59:38 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Phillip, I too want to congratulate you on your purchase. You own probably one of the very best pianos in the world. It will I am sure become quite a friend to you over the rest of your life as pianos can when it seems all else has failed. It will also teach you to become a better pianist. Congratulations !!

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Cork
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:58:18 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Phillip, I have only three words for you: Fabulous Choice!!! Congratulations. Cork

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Andrew
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 14:19:14 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Congratulations! Yes, IMHO, M&H BB is the Olympian of all pianos. Enjoy! !

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Lewis
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 23:09:27 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Congratulations! Yes, IMHO, M&H BB is the Olympian of all pianos. Enjoy! !
---
i'm not so lucky ... :( still trying to find a good 5'5 grand.. which pieces do u all guys play on the piano to test it?? wat do u look out for when playing thses pieces??

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: ryan
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 12:23:04 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
What I play depends on what I have memorized and/or whether I have access to music. I like to play stuff from different styles and from lots of composers like Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Brahms, Rachmaninov, Ravel, Debusy, Stravinsky, and Prokofiev. Usually I have a short list of pieces that I try first to determine whether the piano is worth spending more time on or not. This includes Debussy's Clair de lune, parts of Chopin's 1st Ballade and Op. 10 No. 11 Etude, Rachmaninov's Prelude in G, and part of Beethoven's Op. 53 sonata. I look at how the action responds to different touches and how well it tracks during really fast passages. I also listen for how loud and soft the piano can play, how well it handles singing melodies, how clearly inner voices are projected, and how richly chords resonate. It's tough to find a 5'5' piano that does all of this well. The only one I have played that was absolutely fantastic in all these areas was the Steingraber 168, which is exactly 5'5'. It simply has a beautiful tone through the entire scale and is one of the finest instruments I have ever played. It's also WAYYY out of my price range:-) One thought, when you play fantastic instruments that are out of your price range it helps set your ear which can help when trying to choose between less expensive models. You can compare things that you like and don't like and sometimes come up with a compromise that works. Ryan

Subject: By the way...
From: ryan
To: ryan
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 13:54:57 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Congratulations to Phillip for his acquisition. The M+H BB is truly a very fine piano. If only I had room in my home and a few extra $$$!

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Cork
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 11:27:39 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
For me, it depends on whether I have music with me and what's in my fingers at the time, but here are a three old warhorses that I've used: Rachmaninoff Prelude in C# minor for the bass response, a section in Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue with a single, rapidly-repeated note to test action response, another section in RinB in which one can hold a midrange note/chord with the sostenuto pedal while playing another theme (tests both sustain and the sostenuto mechanism; there's a Chopin Nocturne I use for this as well, but the Opus slips my memory), and Malaguena by Lecuona (?) to test the high treble. Also, you need to play a very soft piece (Clair de Lune?) or passage to see if the instrument truly is a 'piano' or would more properly be called a 'forte'. There's tons of great music that will work over a piano. Just look for stuff that fits your style. My 71-yr-old dad plays Bumble Bee Boogie at about 2X speed (which generally brings all discussion in a store to a halt as they listen in shocked silence) to test tone and response throughout the range. I'm sure you have pieces that will cover the major points of tone, action response, sustain, dynamic range, etc.

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Lewis
To: Cork
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 01:34:33 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
do u guys have any other easier pieces?? i'm really not good at memorising these hard songs.. i'm still trying to get the hang of rach 3 i'll be looking out for 5'5 grands and 52' uprights preferbly yamahas and kawais... if i play the songs that u guys mention,, how should i know whether the piano is responsive? a piano dealer told me that the heavier the keys,, the more responsive the action would be.. is this true??i also had a problem with sweaty flying fvingers,,is there any piano with keys that are ' sweat resistant'?? thanks alot for all ur help..

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Andrew
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 08:34:36 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Again I would recommend to try as many as used grands or uprights at people's homes. Not only will you have a feelings what pianos are out there, you also get a feeling how pianos sound at home environment. That's where you'll be playing/enjoying most of the time. Plus you'll get your piano at significantly discounted price. You mentioned Rach 3 while you said the most the pieces people suggested are too difficult for you to play or remember?! You don't need to memorize the pieces before you can try a piano out at the dealer's. You will be welcome to bring your music along; spend as much time as you feel need to test the piano you're interested in. If you have the tech foundation to tackle Rach 3 you should be able to play/learn most of the music people recommended here. Let me add Schumann Novelette, Op.21. No.1 or Arabesque, Op.18. Both are good pieces to test the touch and tone and responsiveness of pianos. Also if you're good with these two pieces you can really tell the minute nuance of the piano when you play them with different weight and attack. And of course any of the Brahms Intermezzi and other short pieces can really tell you how well the action is regulated and tone voiced. Dont' worry too much at this stage. Just go out and try/play. You'll get the feel for it and understand what people are talking about on this thread as you go along. Andrew

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Lewis
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 02:35:26 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
What if i play easy popular songs like fur elise,, richard clayderman's 'ballade pour adeline'? will i still be able to see the piano's good qualities??

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Mat D.
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 15:23:42 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Lewis, there are two kinds of music: good & bad! Within these two categories are several genres, whichever you play is alright. If the piano sounds great & feels great, it's the right piano for you, as long as you have it checked out by a qualified technician in order be sure there are no hidden problems. If you are buying a new piano, buy from a reputable dealer & be sure you insist on follow-up voicing/tuning/regulation after the piano is moved to your home (wait a month or so for this so you & the piano can settle into the environment & you become familiar with the instrument & gather your questions/suggestions as far as voicing goes). Good luck--Mat D.

Subject: Re: THE Piano
From: Mat D.
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:58:31 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Phillip, I'm so happy for you, even my wife was happy when I showed her the e-mail letter I got from you. Congratulations! Mat D.

Subject: Westermayer baby grand piano
From: Pat
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 11:02:10 (EDT)
Email Address: drevetj@cicsun.univ-bpclermont.fr

Message:
I inherited a Westermayer baby grand piano. this piano has been in the family for the past 75 years and has not been tuned for the least fifty years or so. However it was care for in the sense that it has always been kept in an heated house during the winter season. The piano is a bit strange (kind of an hybrid if you see what I mean) because their is german labels on the body but the way the mechanism is set up is more english type!. This piano is in rosewood and the keys are in a nice ivory. the piano still looks great but it does not stay tuned. To restore it my tuner is asking me for 5000 dollars. If there is someone outhere who might know this brand I will appreciate your imput. Is the brand famous? Do you think that it is worth while to rebuilt it? Thank you Pat

Subject: Re: Westermayer baby grand piano
From: David Burton
To: Pat
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:50:29 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Pat, Your piano has been in your family since around 1925 and hasn't been tuned regularly if at all since 1950. You refer to it as a Westermayer baby grand piano. If it really is a 'baby grand'; a piano 5'3' or less in length and your tuner is asking you for $5K to restore it, please save your money. If however your grand piano is 5'7' or longer then we have a different set of options to consider. First to the identity. Ed Westermeyer was in fact a German piano maker out of Berlin from 1863 to 1938. However your piano was probably fabricated in Jamestown, NY by the C. A. Ahlstrom & Co, which went out of business in 1926, shortly after your piano was put together. They apparently had some kind of deal with Westermeyer to supply piano parts, etc. It was probably not an economically viable situation for Ahlstrom. You can see how interesting this business is if you just follow the listings in the Pierce Piano Atlas. Anyway, ivory keys, rosewood case or no, if the piano is not long enough it's going to be $5K wasted in a rebuild, particularly if your tuner doesn't do certain things right, unless you intend on making it into a toy by installing a pianodisk system into it. Now some old pianos can be so retrofitted and some can't so this would be something to consider asking your tuner and anyone else. This heirloom of yours is sort of a time capsule. You probably really don't know what the piano sounded like when it was new. It might be a considerable gamble to find out or it could be wonderful. I'd not go into it myself unless it were actually large enough, but I am a serious classical pianist and I realize that many other people who have or are interested in pianos are not. Hope I gave you some things to think about.

Subject: Hallet & Davis
From: Matt L.
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 11:54:30 (EDT)
Email Address: mathew.lawrie@prudential.com

Message:
I just acquired an old upright piano made by Hallet & Davis, Boston, MA. There is a number stamped on the back '98469' and what appears to be a date stamped on the back '3/39'. Can anyone tell me how old this piano is, what it may be worth and any suggestions on cleaning, refinishing, repairing, tuning, etc. such an old piano. I would appreciate any info/advise.

Subject: Re: Hallet & Davis
From: David Burton
To: Matt L.
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 01:05:44 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I just acquired an old upright piano made by Hallet & Davis, Boston, MA. There is a number stamped on the back '98469' and what appears to be a date stamped on the back '3/39'. Can anyone tell me how old this piano is, what it may be worth and any suggestions on cleaning, refinishing, repairing, tuning, etc. such an old piano. I would appreciate any info/advise.
---
Confirming John Granholm, your piano was made in 1918 in Boston. I don't know what significance '3/39' has if any. Hallet & Davis were loosely connected with Ivers & Pond and Poole. These makers made what I would call 'the Boston sound' which is usually mellower, darker, richer as distinguished from 'the New York sound' typified by Steinway and their legions of imitators. You could throw Chickering in there too with the rest of the Boston crowd and Mason & Hamlin for that matter. Anyway a certain piano rebuilder of my acquaintance told me about Hallet & Davis, a brand I knew nothing about beforehand and that he looks out for good H & D's all the time. It's a very old name. They made square pianos. They made some nice BIG uprights. They made a few nice grands. Probably hard to find many good ones anymore that haven't gotten so worn out that they've gone to the piano boneyard. I heard recently that the name has resurfaced as a brand tacked on cheap Asian imports. It figures. Any new H & D has nothing in common with their classic representations. But that goes for Knabe and Chickering as well.

Subject: Re: Hallet & Davis
From: Granholm Bros
To: Matt L.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:21:00 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I just acquired an old upright piano made by Hallet & Davis, Boston, MA. There is a number stamped on the back '98469' and what appears to be a date stamped on the back '3/39'. Can anyone tell me how old this piano is, what it may be worth and any suggestions on cleaning, refinishing, repairing, tuning, etc. such an old piano. I would appreciate any info/advise.
---
A serial number of 98469 would indicate the piano was built in 1918. Your questions on value, cleaning, etc. can best be answered by a piano technician in your area who has given the piano a thorough check. You'll find techs in the yellow pages. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Story & Clark pianos
From: Sandy
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 12:25:05 (EDT)
Email Address: dgremy@uswest.net

Message:
Can you tell me if the Story & Clark pianos are a quality comparable to Yamaha. Are they a piano that will be able to be passed down to the next generation. I am thinking of purchasing one of these very soon and I am a beginner and don't know much about piano purchasing. They also had a Knabe piano but it only had four posts bracing the back so I thought the Story & Clark was built better. Your response would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: Story & Clark pianos
From: David Burton
To: Sandy
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:45:23 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Can you tell me if the Story & Clark pianos are a quality comparable to Yamaha. Are they a piano that will be able to be passed down to the next generation. I am thinking of purchasing one of these very soon and I am a beginner and don't know much about piano purchasing. They also had a Knabe piano but it only had four posts bracing the back so I thought the Story & Clark was built better. Your response would be appreciated.
---
Story & Clark is a very old name in American pianos but really it should be considered a very old name in the marketing of American pianos to Americans, both pianos made by Story & Clark and by others or made for Story & Clark for example as made by Yamaha. These days Story & Clark are involved with player pianos. They still have a factory in Seneca, PA. I have run into them from time to time over the years. I guess that since I really am a more developed pianist than some, I was never that impressed by Story & Clark pianos. But according to my tech they ain't that bad and there's something about buying American made that he always likes, when you can. My problem with Story & Clark has been that I've not run into any of their pianos, uprights or grands that were very BIG. Frankly I won't be bothered with a spinet or a short console or a baby grand, no way. They do have a brighter than usual sound and a lighter than usual touch too which frankly seem to appeal more to amateurs than professionals. I guess they would make good starter pianos or more emphatically good entertainment pianos if they come equipped with some player mechanism. That's my take on Story & Clark.

Subject: Used- N.W. Nelson Piano
From: Carolyn
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 11:09:21 (EDT)
Email Address: csohoza@ameritech.net

Message:
I have just purchased a used N.W. Nelson upright the seller said her mother bought it in 1949 I am looking for any information about this brand and the quality of there workmanship

Subject: Re: Used- N.W. Nelson Piano
From: David Burton
To: Carolyn
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:27:54 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have just purchased a used N.W. Nelson upright the seller said her mother bought it in 1949 I am looking for any information about this brand and the quality of there workmanship
---
N. W. Nelson was made by Estey up through 1949 probably includes yours. Before 1927 their pianos were built in New York City, unlikely that yours was one of these. After that Estey pianos were made at their factory in Bluffton, Indiana. The Estey company went through a number of changes but interestingly died a strange death in that in 1982 their factory was apparently struck by lightening and totally destroyed by fire. Estey enjoys an interesting reputation as an independent piano maker that made some very good pianos, notably some large grands during the 20's and a lot that are considered really mediocre. Fact is that Estey managed to stay in business through a lot of changes in the piano industry over the years and there are a lot of good musical instruments made in Indiana as some people know. My tech is reticent about what he thinks about pianos, but seems to think that there are a lot worse pianos both new and used than those made by Estey. If you like yours and it works ok, you're lucky. I hope you got a tech to look it over before you bought it. I hope that whatever you spent for it equals your enjoyment of it. Keep it in tune and play it.

Subject: Grand Piano:help!
From: Rick
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 21:36:30 (EDT)
Email Address: Realsonic@aol.com

Message:
Anyone ever heard of a grand piano made by Franz G. Trollmans

Subject: Re: Grand Piano:help!
From: David Burton
To: Rick
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:09:48 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Anyone ever heard of a grand piano made by Franz G. Trollmans
---
Nope!

Subject: Yamaha G1R
From: Pierce Keating
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Nov 01, 1999 at 00:04:40 (EST)
Email Address: p_keating@att.net

Message:
Hello, Can someone please explain the difference between a Yamaha G2 and a Yamaha G1R? I just purchased a ten year old G1R for $8,500, and thought it sounded much richer than a ~7 year old G2. Also, the G2 listed for only $8,000 while the G1R listed for $10,000. Both seemed in great shape, however I was told the G1R was a 'professional' model, and I did think that it's bass was more full than the brighter sonding G2. However, after browsing the web, it seems that the G2 is generally the more expensive and perhaps larger model. I'm starting to wonder if I really bought the better piano...

Subject: Old Church Piano
From: Brent Warren
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 21:24:39 (EDT)
Email Address: brent.warren@gte.net

Message:
Does anyone have any information about an old upright mahoghany piano? On the inside it is labeled Spencer (or Spenger) New York.

Subject: Re: Old Church Piano
From: David Burton
To: Brent Warren
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 23:56:01 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Does anyone have any information about an old upright mahoghany piano? On the inside it is labeled Spencer (or Spenger) New York.
---
Yes it's Spencer, no Spengler that I know of exists. Most likely F. W.Spencer discontinued in 1926 out of New York, just another 'no name' piano maker. Probably not worth much at all.

Subject: Gossl piano
From: ghiggins
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 22:44:15 (EDT)
Email Address: medicinebr@aol.com

Message:
Has anyone ever heard of a piano manufactured by Josef and Adolf Gossl (Serial No. 3980)? We'd love to hear from you about the manufacturer and what a 100 year old rosewood baby grand might be worth. Do you know where we could get information about such a piano?

Subject: Re: Gossl piano
From: David Burton
To: ghiggins
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 23:45:16 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
The only thing I could find out about Gossl was that they were a piano maker, presumably headed by two brothers, Josef and Adolf in Vienna. There are a lot of piano makers that were in Vienna besides Bosendorfer that are no longer in business. They could be good or just another "no name" piano maker. Now you said that yours was a 100 year old Rosewood 'baby grand'. First off, a 'baby grand' by standard definition is a piano no longer than 5' 3' or so from keyboard to tail. If yours is longer, say between 5' 3' and 6' and closer to 6' then we're talking a possible good candidate for a rebuild. Also operating in favor of such a proposition would be if the case were so decorated as to be considered an 'art case'. In such matters, a rebuilder would consider rescaling the piano, possibly even replacing the soundboard. Certainly the pinblock would be replaced as well. Then there's the action and keyboard to consider. It probably has real ivory keys but might not. As we say ad nausium on this forum, get an independent piano technician to look over the piano and assess its structural integrity. They can spot things that the rest of us miss. I'll say this much, if it really is a nice art case and it really is a 'baby grand'; really short. The best that can be made out of it is a toy and people are spending big money on toys these days. How about it if it showed up in a showroom completely rebuilt with a new pianodisk unit in it? Someone might pay as much as $18,000 for it. But before you decide to make this thing a project get a tech to evaluate it for you first.

Subject: Buy a Weber Piano?
From: Lalia
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 15:44:44 (EDT)
Email Address: bradleylalia@mindspring.com

Message:
Hi! I have never played a piano and want to begin taking lessons. I have about $3000 to spend on a piano and want to get the best quality piano for the money. My husband got in touch with one of the companies that sell pianos out of the back of a truck (they have a store in another state). They carry Weber brand pianos and offer them at what seems like a very reduced rate (the 43' was around $2500). Are there any opinions about this brand and/or this way of doing business. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Buy a Weber Piano?
From: David Burton
To: Lalia
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 23:29:34 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Hi! I have never played a piano and want to begin taking lessons. I have about $3000 to spend on a piano and want to get the best quality piano for the money. My husband got in touch with one of the companies that sell pianos out of the back of a truck (they have a store in another state). They carry Weber brand pianos and offer them at what seems like a very reduced rate (the 43' was around $2500). Are there any opinions about this brand and/or this way of doing business. Thanks!
---
They're basically Young Changs, might not even be that good. Buying a piano off a truck is, well it's an interesting sales technique to say the least. Don't know as I would even consider such as sales venue myself.

Subject: Finally bought a piano!
From: Joy
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:42:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Just wanted to thank Cork, David B., Bobb, Mat D. and company for all the feedback they've given -- both directly and indirectly through other postings. I just took delivery of a 28-year old Mason & Hamlin 50'upright. Our piano technician gave it his hearty approval, and it sounds even better in my home than it did at the seller's! This was while the following other pianos crossed our path: a new Weinbach vertical, a 1-year-old Petrof 48', a 1905 Chickering grand, two other used M&H verticals that got away (they are quite prized apparently) and a Kimball petite grand (aka PSO). This, combined with Larry Fine's book, plus talking to LOTS of people about pianos, lead us to our final happy purchase. Your feedback bolstered our confidence! THANK YOU!

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: David Burton
To: Joy
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 13:32:32 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
All the best to you and your son. You bought a truly great upright. Now about trills on an upright, since I own one and also play Bach, it requires that the fingers work harder than on a grand since you have to get up off the keys with practically every stroke. All things being equal; the weight of the action and other characteristics being completely the same, an upright action will never match the repetition of a grand, however yours is a really good upright whose action can be regulated to improve the repetition as much as possible. What happens though is that there is a point at which other performance characteristics are sacrificed to repetition on an upright action including having hammers double strike strings which you do not want. Your piano tech should know what to do. But your son will have to curve his fingers a bit more and gain a bit more strength to make trills sound as well on ANY upright as they would on a grand.

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: Joy
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 21:16:11 (EST)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
All the best to you and your son. You bought a truly great upright. Now about trills on an upright, since I own one and also play Bach, it requires that the fingers work harder than on a grand since you have to get up off the keys with practically every stroke. All things being equal; the weight of the action and other characteristics being completely the same, an upright action will never match the repetition of a grand, however yours is a really good upright whose action can be regulated to improve the repetition as much as possible. What happens though is that there is a point at which other performance characteristics are sacrificed to repetition on an upright action including having hammers double strike strings which you do not want. Your piano tech should know what to do. But your son will have to curve his fingers a bit more and gain a bit more strength to make trills sound as well on ANY upright as they would on a grand.
---
David, thank you for elaborating on the finer points of improving the regulation on an upright action. I think my son finds it galling that he can perform perfect trills on our older upright, which is sitting another corner of the same room. The older upright had a very soft touch however, so my son's fingering strength and technique is probably going through some adjustment to the M&H's firmer feel. Aside from my son's minor annoyance with the trill situation, the M&H feels and sounds so much better in every way, there is simply no comparison! We are both looking forward our piano technician's visit. He's running the NYC Marathon first(!!!), then visiting the Steinway factory on his way home to ask questions. THEN he will return to California to tune, voice and regulate our M&H. I will keep what you said in mind and let you know what results. I imagine it will be like getting a new piano all over again. We feel so lucky to have our M&H!

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: Mat D.
To: Joy
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:51:34 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Joy, congratulations, I'm sure you will enjoy years of beautiful piano playing with your Mason & Hamlin piano. BTW, I received an e-mail from another piano forum member (Phil) that purchased a new Mason & Hamlin BB today per my suggestion
---
I think he is in love with it (as I am with mine). I'm totally excited for both of you! Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: Joy
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:38:02 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
It's been just over a week since we took delivery of our 28-old Mason & Hamlin upright. The seller (a piano tuner himself) suggested we wait at least 3 weeks for the piano to get acclimated to its new space before getting it tuned. My son the Bach fanatic says he just noticed the action is a tad slow whenever he plays trills. Is this something that is addressed during regulation? Our own piano technician (who said this piano was in great shape) estimated that the piano would need 2-3 hours worth of tuning and regulation -- that's after my son said he preferred a slightly warmer tone -- the previous owner had played only jazz on it. Any thoughts on this?

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: ryan
To: Joy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 10:59:05 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
The technician might be able to warm up the tone with voicing and make it play better with regulation. How fast it can play determines on the design of the action. For example, the Renner action is very fast in uprights. One limitation in how fast you can play an upright action, however, is that the hammers return more slowly than on grands. This is because the hammers in grand pianos have gravity to help them return faster. Some manufacturers have actually been able overcome make the hammers return as quickly as they do in a grand through clever action designs. I am looking at one such piano now, and after spending 2 hours comparing it to various grands in the same room I couldn't tell a difference in the action. Best of luck! Ryan

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: joy
To: ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 14:47:09 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
The technician might be able to warm up the tone with voicing and make it play better with regulation. How fast it can play determines on the design of the action. For example, the Renner action is very fast in uprights. One limitation in how fast you can play an upright action, however, is that the hammers return more slowly than on grands. This is because the hammers in grand pianos have gravity to help them return faster. Some manufacturers have actually been able overcome make the hammers return as quickly as they do in a grand through clever action designs. I am looking at one such piano now, and after spending 2 hours comparing it to various grands in the same room I couldn't tell a difference in the action. Best of luck! Ryan
---
Thank you, ryan & mat, for your responses. Would a 1972 M&H have a Renner action? Anyway, my son noticed that both the new Weinbach and used Petrof verticals he tested had excellent (ie rapid-repeat) trill-action, so it can't be impossible to get the same effect on our M&H, I reckon. Is that reasonable reasoning? I love learning all this piano stuff!

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: Mat D.
To: joy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:31:26 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Joy, Your Mason & Hamlin probably does not have renner action, but neither does a Steinway. What I am getting at is, don't let that bother you; renner is not the only company that makes a good action, and Mason & Hamlin is a very fine instrument which has been played by many great pianists--I'm sure your action will be sufficient with some tweeking (regulation). Keep us informed. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: ryan
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 10:41:46 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Renner is the only good action (as Mat points out), I just meant it as an example of a very good action that you may find in upright pianos. Current M&H has their actions custom made for them in Germany, although I don't know how long they have done this. I have played some of their new grands and they are fantastic players! Ryan

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: Joy
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:39:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Joy, Your Mason & Hamlin probably does not have renner action, but neither does a Steinway. What I am getting at is, don't let that bother you; renner is not the only company that makes a good action, and Mason & Hamlin is a very fine instrument which has been played by many great pianists--I'm sure your action will be sufficient with some tweeking (regulation). Keep us informed. Mat D.
---
Thanks Mat. It's good to know just what 'regulation' can do. I'll let you know what happens when our tech comes by in 2-3 weeks. Joy

Subject: Re: Finally bought a piano!
From: Mat D.
To: Joy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:47:50 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Hi Joy, I'm sure this (the action) won't be a problem for your technician; this is something that is taken care with regulation. The issue of warmer tone is a voicing question & that too can be taken care of. If your technician estimated 2-3 hours, it sounds like you don't need a major job done--that's good. best of luck, and play your piano in good health! Mat D.

Subject: Congrats!
From: cork
To: Joy
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 10:08:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Joy, that's wonderful news! I'm so glad your search has been successful. I hope you have decades of enjoyment from your new Mason & Hamlin! Thanks for telling us what you bought. Cork

Subject: can anyone help me.
From: onesha
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 20:04:27 (EDT)
Email Address: onesha@aol.com

Message:
I have a old piano. The company name is Boston Piano Company, Coshocton Ohio. I was trying to find out some information about the company. I am trying to figure out the age of the piano and the price. thank you all

Subject: Re: can anyone help me.
From: David Burton
To: onesha
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 15:29:07 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Boston was made by Compton & Price in Coshocton, Ohio which ran from 1910 to 1918. My guess is that they weren't really very good for some reason. Then again they might have been really good but poorly marketed. Who knows. All I could tell you is that you have a really old "no name" piano. Have an independent piano technician evaluate it and make sure everything works with minor work required. They'll be able to give you a ballpark estimate of what its worth but don't be surprised if it ain't much.

Subject: I Need Your Help
From: Brian Littleton
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 21:03:24 (EDT)
Email Address: brian@lonesomegeorge.com

Message:
I recently was given a piano, from an old estate, that was still in its crate. The markings indicate that it was manufactured by M Schulz Co., Chicago. However, i cannot find any information on this company, and the kicker is, the piano has no legs, and i need to order some. The piano was originally purchased in 1978, and if anyone could tell me if they have heard of this company before, i would appreciate it....thank you very much.

Subject: Re: I Need Your Help
From: David Burton
To: Brian Littleton
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 15:16:31 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
M. Schulz Chicago eh? Pretty tough. Well my guess is that it is really an Otto Schulz piano named after his father M. Schulz. The M. Schulz piano company at 614 N. Carpenter St. Chicago started in 1869 and was later taken over by M's son Otto who continued running under his own name, Otto Schulz and made many other brands. This seems to be a pattern. Unfortunately strange things happen after the Great Depression begins. Otto Schulz serial numbers run up to 1933 only. So my guess is someone else made your M. Schulz piano but who? If it says M. Schulz on the case is there a chance that somewhere in the vastness of Chicagoland there still manages to exist, up to 1978, an M. Schulz piano company? I don't know. But here's something to think about. That piano has stood in its case unplayed for 20 years, legless or not. Hope there's no water damage or you have a real expensive doorstop. Besides finding new legs for it which you might have to have made or perhaps you can buy them from another maker, you're going to have to bring in a piano tech to unsnarl whatever might be the condition of this piano. It's a real interesting project. Hope all works out well for you.

Subject: The Used Piano Maze
From: Lea
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 00:39:38 (EDT)
Email Address: arcadepix@aol.com

Message:
Help. I'm looking for an inexpensive (less than 1500 dollars) used piano- am debating a Vose and Sons that came from a music school- a bit bright in sound, and out of tune, but I understand that's fixable?? Also a Hallet and Davis- mellower sound, but I keep being attracted to the Vose. I almost bought a Weber console- lovely sound, bt it's ugly. All come from a good used piano store that will get them in great condition before delivery. Any thoughts? (I know I sound like a piano moron, and I am, so help!)

Subject: Re: The Used Piano Maze
From: David Burton
To: Lea
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 13:14:32 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
John D. gave you good advice. And Larry Fine's book is a very good book to read too. But here's the low down on the three brands for what it's worth. Vose is an Aeolian-American product. Before 1932 Vose was an American Piano product, some suppose better quality but I'm sure the piano you're looking at isn't an old classic. How many places will we all say this to the piano buying public: GET AS LARGE A PIANO AS YOU CAN as it will be better made, sound better, play better and hold its value better than a really short small piano. Hallet-Davis is a sleeper piano brand that's beginning to gain some recognition among some piano rebuilders. First of all it's one of the oldest American piano makers going back all the way to 1843 in Boston. The problem with such a nice old name as this is that it has been compromised, especially lately. New pianos bearing the Hallet & Davis name are made in Singapore or China and have nothing in common with even the pianos Aeolian-American made in Memphis bearingthis name. A rebuilder is looking for a nice old BIG H & D upright made in Boston, not a new or mid-period (1932-1947) console or spinet bearing the H & D name on its fallboard. So what is a piano like these really worth? GET AN INDEPENDENT PIANO TECH TO GO WITH YOU to look them over and if he passes them off as ok, make the best deal you can for a few hundred dollars. That's all. Oh and forget the Winter. Besides being ugly their spinets aren't worth even considering IMHO.

Subject: Re: The Used Piano Maze
From: John D.
To: Lea
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 17:21:35 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Lea, This forum is for everyone, so don't worry about how *uneducated* you may think you sound. BTW, you asked some very good questions. I don't know anything about either of the two brands of pianos you are talking about. However, before judging any piano, it really needs to be in tune. Also, many times, when people first listen to a piano, they are attracted to the brighter sounding instruments. You should be certain of your tonal preference before purchasing an instrument - so don't rush your decision. Last piece of advice, make sure the store gets the piano in great condition BEFORE you buy it. Keep us updated, John D. P.S. Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' is a great source of information on pianos for everyone from beginners to the most advanced. It has very good information on what to look for when buying a piano - both new and used.

Subject: Vose & Sons Console
From: Lea
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 21:00:31 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am really considering purchasing a Vose and Sons console. I would guess that it's about 20 years old- has come used from a music school. There are actually several that are quite alike at the store, but one has what I think is a gret tone. Does anyone have any advice about this brand of piano? P.S. Thanks to John D. for his great advice on my last message. I have already taken it to heart.

Subject: Re: Vose & Sons Console
From: David Burton
To: Lea
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 12:52:18 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
A 20 year old Vose piano that was used in a school is going to be, 1) an Aeolian-American piano made in either Rochester, NY (better) or Memphis, TN (not as good) and 2) may be pretty beat up. There are vast ranges of opinion on the quality of Aeolian-American pianos. My piano tech, like most of them, doesn't like to be pressed on quality issues with pianos, but he knows and smirks when you mention any names associated with Aeolian-American; many just aren't as good as even some of the low-end Asian imports. But this particular piano was used in a school. It is probably larger than the typical Aeolean-American spinets which were all really toys or furniture, but even if AN INDEPENDENT PIANO TECHNICIAN checks it out as ok and everything works, I still wouldn't buy it for more than a few hundred dollars.

Subject: DATING A PIANO
From: CHERYL DAVIDSON
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:16:54 (EDT)
Email Address: CHERYLD222@AOL.COM

Message:
i HAVE PURCHASED A ANTIQUE UPRIGHT PIANO. THE NAME OF THE MANUFACTURER IS WESER BROS. OF NEW YORK CITY. THROUGH THE LIBRARY I OBTAINED A BOOK WHICH GAVE ONLY THE INFORMATION THAT WESER BROS. WAS AT ONE TIME LOCATED IN NEW YORK CITY AND WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1879. I WOULD LIKE TO FIND A SOURCE TO GIVE ME A LITTLE/LOT MORE INFORMATION REGARDING THIS COMPANY AND POSSIBLY DATING THE PIANO. ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED. THANK YOU, CHERYL DAVIDSON

Subject: Re: DATING A PIANO: Check the Piano Atlas
From: David Burton
To: CHERYL DAVIDSON
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 12:35:37 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Well I guess your library didn't have the Pierce Piano Atlas which on page 373 of its 10th edition lists Weser as indeed a piano maker established in 1879, lists the two brothers who started it, also lists them as having made pianos with the names Billings, Coloniet, Marveola, ReRendo, Orpheola and Winfield. A list of serial numbers is also given from 1880 through 1955! That means that the piano maker was in business through 1955. 1879-1955 is a pretty long run through thick and thin for a piano maker that's relatively unknown. I like the Pierce Piano Atlas because it contains 'just the facts, ma'm'. For instance you can look at this piano maker's last few serial numbers and reach some conclusions; that between 1950 and 1955 they made no more than 3,100 instruments bearing any number of the names mentioned. That works out to an average of slightly over 50 pianos a month. Well you can bet they weren't grands so if you happened to find a grand bearing any of these names and by serial number it dated from around the end of this piano maker's life, it would probably be a short grand, a baby, a furniture piano more than a good instrument. I don't wish to pan Larry Fine's quite excellent book, but Larry Fine's Piano Book is more subjective except where he describes pricing. But even so everyone says to buy Larry's book without giving the Piano Atlas its due. All my piano tech pals have and use the Piano Atlas and only one of my acquaintance has Larry's book.

Subject: Baby Grand Piano
From: Ric
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 10:15:33 (EST)
Email Address: rmart48093@aol.com

Message:
I am considering a baby grand piano for a great room in my house. My wife thinks this will be too big for the room even though the previous owner had one in the same spot. Excuse the ignorance, but do baby grands all come in the same size or do they have a 'range' of sizes? Any information/direction would be helpful. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Baby Grand Piano
From: David Burton
To: Ric
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 12:11:14 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I am considering a baby grand piano for a great room in my house. My wife thinks this will be too big for the room even though the previous owner had one in the same spot. Excuse the ignorance, but do baby grands all come in the same size or do they have a 'range' of sizes? Any information/direction would be helpful. Thanks.
---
Actually this is a very good question since a lot of people wonder about 'baby grands' on here. Basically grand pianos, horizontal pianos vs. uprights, vertical pianos, come in three basic RANGES of sizes based on length; the smallest range less than 5' 3' are the 'baby grands'. The next size range goes by various names, 'parlor grand', 'standard grand', even 'boudoir grand' includes all grands longer than 5' 3' but shorter than 6'. The biggest grands, anything 6' or longer are considered 'professional grands' which include the 'conservatory grands' and the longest, 9' and more called 'concert grands'. Now believe it or not some 'concert grands' are actually just under 9'. The last category of 'standard grand' the 5' 10' is sometimes ranked in with the 'professional grands'. But ALL pianos designated as 'baby grands' are 5' 3' and shorter. Hope this helps focus our discussions; when some of us make statements regarding 'baby grands' we really mean 'baby grands' not 'parlor grands'. Again, I tell every prospective piano buyer to buy a grand at least 5' 7' in length. Larry Fine likes them only 6' and longer.

Subject: thalberg
From: m. claymore
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 11:25:10 (EST)
Email Address: goanna@iu.com.au

Message:
Has anyone heard of a combined piano/pianola/organ with the name of ' Thalberg ,' in gold lettering above the keys. I don't seem to be able to find any information on it anywhere. Thankyou.

Subject: Re: thalberg
From: David Burton
To: m. claymore
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 11:54:44 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Looking up Thalberg in the Pierce Piano Atlas leads to J. Steele & Higgins, Manchester, presumably England where the path ends. Try picking up the thread with J. Steele & Higgins.

Subject: Aeolean Baby Grand
From: Walt
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:27:49 (EDT)
Email Address: walthampton@aol.com

Message:
I have looked at an Aeolean Baby Grand. I play but have no technical expertise. This is a piano of unknown age. Its exterior has been refinished well. The sounding board looks fine. The sound is bright. The action even. The seller is asking $1,000. I called a dealer who responded by saying that the 'Aeolean is the bottom of the barrel; that 'the sounding boards have no support;' that the 'glue used was substandard;' and that the piano is 'volatile.' Any thoughts or comments????

Subject: Re: Aeolean Baby Grand
From: Niles Duncan
To: Walt
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:35:51 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
For an older American baby grand piano i.e. 1920's, 1930's by a maker of no distinction in more or less original condition on the private market in my area asking prices in the range of $1000 - $2000 are typical. The ones near $1000 sell, the ones nearer to $2000 take longer to sell and appear in the classified ads week after week. Aeolian is a maker of no distinction, but I wouldn't say bottom of the barrel. The dealer's comments are either ignorant or deceitful (probably both) and sound to me like he is trying to scare you away from this piano and into his shop so that he can try to sell you one of his, which in this price range will be no better, but he will tell you that it's by a maker who was committed to absolute quality. One thousand dollars is probably a fair price for this piano, however pianos in this price range are typically fairly well worn out, so it is very advisable to have a technician inspect it and give you an accurate evaluation of its condition. You need to know what is worn out and what isn't, what needs immediate attention, and what you can live with. It's good that unlike some buyers you are asking questions first and writing the check later. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles, CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Aeolean Baby Grand
From: David Burton
To: Walt
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:32:30 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Granholm says and it could be carved in stone for all to read, PLEASE TAKE NOTE, 'Your best bet is to get an evaluation from an independent piano technician before you buy this or any other used piano.'

Subject: Re: Aeolean Baby Grand
From: Granholm Bros
To: Walt
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:00:02 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I have looked at an Aeolean Baby Grand. I play but have no technical expertise. This is a piano of unknown age. Its exterior has been refinished well. The sounding board looks fine. The sound is bright. The action even. The seller is asking $1,000. I called a dealer who responded by saying that the 'Aeolean is the bottom of the barrel; that 'the sounding boards have no support;' that the 'glue used was substandard;' and that the piano is 'volatile.' Any thoughts or comments????
---
Interesting, the comments that dealers sometimes make. I picture a 'volatile' piano as one that may explode at any second.... This piano's overall quality depends a lot on its age. Earlier Aeolian pianos were middle-of-the-road instruments. But after the War, they aimed for the economy end of the market, and their pianos weren't great, just cheap. However, I never saw an Aeolian of any age that was put together with substandard glue (I wouldn't know what that is, other than salesman's BS), or with a sounding board that had no support. Aeolian followed standard manufacturing procedures--their goal was never to build great pianos, just lots of them at low cost. A thousand dollars for a refinished grand is a very low price, indicating the seller's anxious to unload the piano for some reason, possibly a hidden serious problem he's hoping you don't discover until the piano's in your living room. Your best bet is to get an evaluation from an independent piano technician before you buy this or any other used piano. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: good deal?
From: mary pat
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 22:31:21 (EDT)
Email Address: coolmomo5@aol.com

Message:
Just bought a used 6year old Baldwin baby grand gloss black piano. Appears to be in mint condition -little dust inside,no scratches. Did I get it at a good price-5500.?

Subject: Re: good deal?
From: Niles Duncan
To: mary pat
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 03:16:11 (EST)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Just bought a used 6year old Baldwin baby grand gloss black piano. Appears to be in mint condition -little dust inside,no scratches. Did I get it at a good price-5500.?
---
Depends. If it is a mainline Baldwin piano made in the U.S., yes. This will have the name 'Baldwin' and nothing else on the fallboard. If it is one of their subsidiary brands, in particular if it has the name 'D.H. Baldwin' or possibly 'Howard' on the fallboard this piano is made for Baldwin by one of the Korean makers, I forget which. These Korean pianos are entry level budget pianos, not up to the standard of the Baldwin grands. That you say it's a gloss black makes me think it's a Korean piano since as far as I know Baldwin doesn't use high gloss finishes on their domestic product. At any rate if you have a 'D.H. Baldwin' no, you didn't get a good deal. You didn't get a bad deal either, but I would say you should have paid less. On the other hand if it's a mainline U.S. made Baldwin grand, either a 5'3' model M or a 5'8' model R, yes you did very well. My general response to the 'did I get a good deal' question I will repeat. The time to do the research and ask questions is before you write the check, not after someone has your money. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder, Los Angeles, CA www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: good deal?
From: David Burton
To: mary pat
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:16:51 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Just bought a used 6year old Baldwin baby grand gloss black piano. Appears to be in mint condition -little dust inside,no scratches. Did I get it at a good price-5500.?
---
Sure you did. And as I just said elsewhere if you must have a baby grand I think Baldwin makes the best one. Congratulations.

Subject: Re: good deal?
From: Mat D.
To: mary pat
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:10:29 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Mary, it depends what size the piano is. Let us know.

Subject: Yamaha U1 concerns
From: Kiley Joe Masson
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 20:52:40 (EDT)
Email Address: kjmasson@kjmusic.on.ca

Message:
3 weeks ago and after playing many, I purchased a new Yamaha U1 piano. (my first brand new piano) I have a few concerns though.. I have read that a piano should set and be played for a few weeks before getting it tuned and serviced. It's a little over 2 weeks and I'm concerned about the action. It feels quite different from the U1s I played in the showrooms. When I play 16th notes in some Rock and Roll (Jerry Lee Lewis style) tunes, it seems like the hammers aren't hitting the strings for every time my fingers hit the keys. Also when some keys bounce back up they remain a little higher than the rest. Is this normal for a new piano and more so a new U1? Will this all be adjusted with when the Yamaha guy comes to preform the servicebond warreny's first check-up and tuning? Thanks in advance. kiley Joe Kiley Joe Masson www.kileyjoe.com

Subject: Re: Yamaha U1 concerns
From: David Burton
To: Kiley Joe Masson
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 07:45:57 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Ok Kiley Joe, Congratulations, you bought one of the best standard upright pianos out there. You can have the piano tuned after it's been in your place for a few weeks. Placement is important. I don't like to put any piano on a carpet and if it's an upright about 4 inches away from the wall and NOT over or in front of any heating device or vent. The tuning will help the action a bit, but there may still be some adjustments your tuner will need to make. If you're playing Jerry Lee Lewis style rock n roll, Great Balls a Fire on it, you will need the most repetition it can deliver. Your tech can adjust this somewhat but you've hit one of the biggest drawbacks to an upright action over a grand action. You must change your style of attack to get up off the key completely after each note so that the action can re-seat on the rail. Gravity takes care of this in a grand action so that even when your keys are half depressed you can still get the hammer to strike the strings again without having to return the key to a full resting position. It's not really so bad on the U1. I almost bought one myself, well actually I was looking for a larger U3 but I thought I'd like a U1 just as well. Believe me if the U1's in the showrooms had better repetition than yours presently does it can be made to respond just like those in the showrooms, Yamahas are nothing if not very consistent. You also said, 'Also when some keys bounce back up they remain a little higher than the rest. Is this normal for a new piano and more so a new U1? Will this all be adjusted with when the Yamaha guy comes to perform the servicebond warreny's first check-up and tuning?' Yeah I expect so, sounds like a few regulation problems to me. Again these tend to be fairly routine to a good tech. Mine goes through schools of them every year.

Subject: Re: Yamaha U1 concerns
From: Kiley Joe
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:50:18 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
David, Thanks for all the info. I feel better now, and from you response, I know the proper words to use when describing what needs adjusted. (most repetition I can get and some regulation adjustments.) Unfortunately the only place we have room for the new piano is on carpet, why do you prefer a no-carpet floor? I've been able to keep the room between 19degrees C (68 F) and 22 C (74 F) and the humidity between 38% and 45%. The only thing I have to change is move it away from the wall a little more. Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate it! Kiley Joe

Subject: Re: Yamaha U1 concerns
From: David Burton
To: Kiley Joe
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:25:39 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Kiley Joe, My reasons for preferring that a piano be placed on a regular hard floor rather than on a carpet and particularly on a wall to wall carpet which usually has a pad under it, is that after many discussions with piano techs about tuning stability and other factors affecting pianos that they have had to deal with including sticking keys, stuck dampers, etc. etc. it seems that they all report some advantages to placing the piano off a carpet. Wall to wall carpets in particular with their underlying pads tend to absorb moisture and actually release more humidity at lower levels or under enclosed spaces like pianos than may otherwise be noticed. This additional humidity is often just enough to throw a piano out of tune by affecting all the wooden parts of the piano sitting over the carpet. Damp chaser units have helped clear some of this up. But that's just another gadget that needs attending, you have to fill it with water when it runs dry. It's in fact been called 'watering the piano', something some people have to do during the winters in the Northeast and upper Midwest. Fewer might have to do this if they didn't have to deal with carpets as well. They tend to exaggerate the humidity under a piano in warmer weather. From personal experience I noticed a change in my piano's tuning stability after I removed the carpet under it. Temperature and especially humidity differences affect a piano. Try and time tunings to after the seasons in your area change enough so that you have to turn the heat on. Other than that, seems like your off and running....

Subject: Cable
From: Sheila
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:11:51 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Haven't seen anything much about a Cable Grand (Chicago)in your forum. I know they don't rank up there with the greats, but are they even considered GOOD? I'm considering a used, 5'6' and I may even go ahead and have it restrung. I can't afford a great piano, but I'm not willing to settle for a poor instrument either. Comments please. Sheila

Subject: Re: Cable
From: David Burton
To: Sheila
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:11:31 (EST)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Sheila, Ok, this approach is one that I have been advocating since I began posting on this message board. 1) find a grand of sufficient size that you can get for reasonable but not a lot of money. 5'6' is just slightly under my limit. I'd like a slightly longer piano butthen it may break your budget. Make sure that its soundboard, bridges, plate and rim are all structurally sound. Get it checked by a tech. Have them check the downbearing and the crown. Actually you want as much of the piano in tact as possible. 2) By the time a piano needs to be restrung there's a number of options, opportunities that come with it that may not come again. Here are a few of them; a) pinblock replacement, THIS IS A MUST. If you are going to restring your piano get your pinblock replaced. This will add another 60 years of tuning stability to your piano. b) rescale it. This is a process of changing as much as possible the thickness of the strings and sometimes their placement on the bridge to optimize tonal and load bearing characteristics of the piano. This will change and improve the tone of the instrument over its original scaling. 3) Action work. The single most dramatic and beneficial change in tone you can achieve in a piano is by replacing its hammers. Almost overnight you sense a change. Play it for several months and then get it voiced. Get good hammers; Steinway, Abel or better. Other action regulation or replacement of old parts can be done too. A good rebuilder can competently weigh off an action to any desired force you want so you can very the touch to your liking. Don't go below 50 grams. Now all of this costs money. A good rebuild including refinishing may cost you $10K But if you start with say a Cable or Cable Nelson that's bigger, like a 5'8, you will end up with a piano that you can't buy new for the same amount of money. You can occasionally get a great piano out of it. More likely you'll get a very good piano.

Subject: J. Baumbach in Wirn piano
From: d. wolney
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 10:49:28 (EDT)
Email Address: wgcinc@midusa.net

Message:
I would like information on a grand piano, manufacturer J. Baumbach in Wirn. The piano is said to have been manufactured for the Austrian Ambassador to Mexico in the late 1860's. The serial number matches this circa. Any information regarding the piano or the manufacturer would be appreciated.

Subject: Re: J. Baumbach in Wirn piano
From: David Burton
To: d. wolney
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:51:53 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
D. Wolney, Did you get the serial number matched to the date in the Pierce Piano Atlas? If so you know that it was and is a piano maker in Vienna, Austria. They made pianos as recently as 1981, might still make pianos of some kind. A late 1860's grand is going to be quite a different instrument from a modern one in at least two respects if not more; 1) it is designed around a lower pitch than ours and 2) has a shorter keyboard, fewer keys, than ours. I don't mind antique pianos as long as they aren't too old. I guess 1875 is about as good a cut off date as I can think of, or when ever it was that 88 keys became standard. As for the tuning at lower pitch, my tech avers that most pianos that are in good structural condition from that era can take a modern tuning without too many problems. Of course sometimes strings will actually break, etc. Hope this helps.

Subject: Chickering
From: Steve Font
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 21:59:26 (EDT)
Email Address: sfont@compuserve.com

Message:
I've recently inherited a Chickering piano. How do I find out what it's worth. Also, I may have to put it in storage for a few months until I move into a new home. Can anyone offer any tips on piano storage?

Subject: Re: Chickering
From: David Burton
To: Steve Font
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:23:04 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
A Chickering eh? Is it a grand or an upright? If a grand how long from the front of the keyboard to its tail? Can you find the serial number on it? On a Chickering should be right on the plate. If so pass it along and I'll look it up for you. That will tell us when it was built. Then we have the key ingredients to determine its possible value. As far as storage goes that's someone else's department. Contact a reputable piano dealer and ask them or find a tech and ask them.

Subject: Baby Grand as a Surprise
From: Harry C.
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 00:33:38 (EDT)
Email Address: cardile@ibm.net

Message:
Thanks for the posts in the other threads - they've provided plenty of insight, but I still need to ask some specific questions. I've just started looking for a baby grand for my wife as a big surprise. She hasn't played in years, but she's longed for a baby grand for at least the ten years I've known her. So here are the particulars and questions: 1. prefer to stay in the $10,000 range; a baby grand is the target since that's been her dream 2. our formal 11'x16' living room will become a piano room a. any preference on wood floors vs. carpeting for sound quality? 3. player feature: a. effective as a teaching tool for the beginner (me) and/or the more experienced? b. preference in make/model? 4. what are the differences in purchasing new vs. used vs. refurbished, in terms of: a. price? b. size? c. preferred manufacturers? d. retaining value? e. maintenance? f. installation of player feature? 5. I've heard mixed reviews on the Korean and Chinese manufacturers - any significant differences for our needs? Lots of questions, but what recommendations would you make? Thanks, Harry C.

Subject: Re: Baby Grand as a Surprise
From: David Burton
To: Harry C.
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 31, 1999 at 01:09:22 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
OK Harry, We understand the term 'baby grand' to refer to a grand piano less than or equal to five feet three inches in length from the keyboard straight back to the end of the curve of the piano. The next sizes up are either called 'parlor grands' or 'standard grands'. The so called 'professional grands are anything longer than six feet. My comments refer to the definition of 'baby grand' and are subject to change as the piano gets larger. '1. prefer to stay in the $10,000 range; a baby grand is the target since that's been her dream.' Right, well you can probably negotiate something close to that if you're careful. '2. our formal 11'x16' living room will become a piano room a. any preference on wood floors vs. carpeting for sound quality?' My preference is for hard floors, wood is good with area rugs, not wall to wall carpeting. The wall to wall carpeting does dampen the sound all right, it also tends to dampen the soundboard and other wooden parts of the piano more quickly by creating a micro-climate under the piano. This is least of a problem in the dry southwest. '3. player feature: a. effective as a teaching tool for the beginner (me) and/or the more experienced?' Not really sold on it for that. Some are. More for entertainment than anything else. 'b. preference in make/model?' Of the player feature? Go with pianodisk and have an authorized pianodisk dealer install it. '4. what are the differences in purchasing new vs. used vs. refurbished, in terms of: a. price?' If you're really going for a true baby grand you are probably better off buying a new one. 'b. size?' If you're really going to buy a grand piano that's a true 'baby grand' there isn't much difference, but I guess longer is still better, try to get a 5'2' at least. 'c. preferred manufacturers?' Petrof, Baldwin and its sub brands, Chickering and Wurlitzer. My preferences would be in that order. After that, Steck and last Knabe. 'd. retaining value?' Forget about retaining value in a grand piano that small. If you are concerned about retaining value you have to think about spending a lot more than $10K on a much larger piano and the best deals are in the used or better rebuilt markets. 'e. maintenance?' Same as any piano; at least two tunings a year, three or four the first year. IF YOU KEEP YOUR PIANO IN TUNE IT WILL GET PLAYED MUCH MORE OFTEN and that's still the point in owning any piano. 'f. installation of player feature?' Covered above. '5. I've heard mixed reviews on the Korean and Chinese manufacturers - any significant differences for our needs?' Yeah I don't like em much. But Yamaha or Kawai are fine for baby grands. Young Chang out of Korea sells a lot but my reputable sources turn thumbs down on them. 'Lots of questions, but what recommendations would you make?' Don't buy a baby grand. Buy a bigger grand, at least 5'7' in length it will do everything better including hold its value. The best deals are in the used or rebuilt markets. This requires the help of a good tech if you don't know what you're looking for. The best buy in a new piano of this size would be among the Baldwins or Petrofs depending on availability and preference. Have heard good things aboutCharles Walter too but never played one. Best of luck, your wife is lucky too no matter what you are able to find for her.

Subject: Yamaha C Price
From: Jay Milender
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 09:13:37 (EDT)
Email Address: jmilender@prodigy.net

Message:
We have finally decided to buy a new Yamaha C2. Our local dealer has come down to $14,200 which includes delivery, initial setup and a tuning a couple of months later. Is this a good price for this piano or can we do better? As always, any comments are appreciated. Jay Milender

Subject: Re: Yamaha C Price
From: alvinator
To: Jay Milender
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 20:56:15 (EDT)
Email Address: aries@csrlink.net

Message:
We have finally decided to buy a new Yamaha C2. Our local dealer has come down to $14,200 which includes delivery, initial setup and a tuning a couple of months later. Is this a good price for this piano or can we do better? As always, any comments are appreciated. Jay Milender
---
Jay, In my locale of central PA, I was quoted $12,500 for a C2 and $16,250 for a C3. I opted for the C3 and I know I got a great deal at that price. In addition, I purchased a great piano! By the way, my purchase was in March 1999.

Subject: Information on a Wilfred Player Piano
From: Paulfxl
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 20:33:53 (EDT)
Email Address: Paulfxl@delphi.com

Message:
I happen to run into an upright player piano, with the name 'Wilfred Piano' on the inside and outside. Its in pretty poor condition. A web search found no information. Would anyone have any info on this company, or suggest where I might find information. I'm just curious, I don't even play ! Thanks Paul

Subject: Re: Information on a Wilfred Player Piano
From: David Burton
To: Paulfxl
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:48:28 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Well, someone has to, might as well be me, for the education of us all. Wilfred lived between 1912 and at least 1927 possibly thereafter. It bought a company called Keller & Sons in 1916. It was out of Whitlock, New York. It's probably ready for the piano boneyard, don't even bother messing with it.

Subject: Re: Information on a Wilfred Player Piano
From: Paulfxl
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
David; Thanks for your help Paul

Subject: Piano OR Yahamha Clavonova?
From: Sue
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:49:16 (EDT)
Email Address: sburesch@netexpress.net

Message:
My daughter just started piano lessons and we are looking at buying a piano. Looked at some used pianos and then the Clavonova. I would like opinions on the pros and cons of each. Thanks in advance. I await your answers.

Subject: Re: Piano OR Yahamha Clavonova?
From: Andrew
To: Sue
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 12:58:04 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Without any additional information from you I'd venture to say that buy a real piano. The tone production with a piano is determined how the keys were pressed or 'attacked' while a clavonova is not. This is the major difference and remember this is a critical one. For a starter/beginner you want to create a best possible sound/feel/touch environment which will help make the learning process more lively and interesting. Piano is the way to go. Unless the cost, space issues are the concerns. . . Andrew

Subject: piano rating
From: Jerry jjcarp@bright.net.com
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:20:53 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have puchased & refinished several pianos and have always wondered how good of a piano I have. It would be very interesting to me to have some piano people list the five name brands that they think are the best.(i.e. story clark, gulbranson etc) I think this would be a service to many readers. Thanks Jerry Carpenter jjcarp@bright.net.com

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: David Burton
To: Jerry jjcarp@bright.net.com
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 07:27:48 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Jerry, I had a blown out monitor so couldn't get in on this one but my responses would be pretty much in line with the others. I'm going to offer a few other makes of grand pianos only from the vintage years that have impressed me; Knabe, mid 1920's vintages and before, very nice clean, clear, elegant toned pianos, Chickering, same vintages, more character, darker toned, great for Beethoven sonatas, A. B. Chase, same vintage, good clear toned piano, if it had been mine would have gone for a voicing change. But these were all fairly old pianos with all original parts. I don't agree with Granholm about Ivers & Pond grands though. Maybe the ones he's seen had busted soundboards with no downbearing left or something. Probably the best dark horse piano I ever played was and I & P 7'4' grand. It was powerful, dynamic and could speak from a whisper to a growl in seconds. I've never played a piano like it. The Mason & Hamlin BB comes the closest to it. I have been recomended half a dozen other brands nobody's ever heard of by others who have played them, but I've never run into any so I can't comment.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: John D.
To: Jerry jjcarp@bright.net.com
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 11:08:45 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
My favorite grand pianos are: Fazioli - I've only played one, but it was a privilege to say the least. Incredible piano. When I win Lotto I will buy one. Steinway - some, but not all. Most are very nice, a few are incredible. I've also come across a few bombs. I'm not fond of the Hamburg Steinway. Falcone - My own personal piano. No longer made but sounds like a combination of a Steinway and a Mason & Hamlin. Deep, powerful base, complex tone. Mason & Hamlin - nice deep base, beautiful tone. All the ones I played were very consistent. Boesendorfer - my least favorite of the above, but still very nice tone with tremendous sustain. John D.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: Mat D.
To: Jerry jjcarp@bright.net.com
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 23:13:38 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Jerry, Here goes
---
my PERSONAL favorites (common brands)7 feet & over. I have not included any Asian pianos, because you asked for personal favorites. Some Kawai & Yamahas are very nice, I just prefer the American & sometimes the German tonality. MASON & HAMLIN-- (my over-all favorite-Very warm, full 'complex' tone with the best 'tenor' voice of any piano I know. This is also the best piano for vocal accompaniment that I know of. This company is making some of the finest pianos available today-at any price)--Retails over $50k but can be had for low $30's STEINWAY-- (also superb-warm 'complex' tone--'American tone' a little less consistent IMO than M&H and more difficult to get good pricing) approx. $59,000-not much break. BOSENDORFER-- I've included this piano because it a classic and not because it is my favorite sound (persoanl preference) (great German piano-thinner tone w/more 'fundamental' frequencies
---
very expensive) retails over $90k BALDWIN (This piano has great potential but must be voiced properly. If I bought one, I would get my best deal (readily available) and hire my own technician (I'd be ready to spend several hundred dollars that I saved in my purchase price) and have him do a major voicing & regulation--this would then be a great piano. not sure of actual prices but can be had for probably less than any listed here
---
a good buy if you follow my plan. Petrof--Another piano that requires lots of voicing & regulation work, but man when you're done, you'll have a great instrument. A 7'4' can be had for somewhere in the high $28-30k range. This list is by no means complete, but all these pianos are readily available and I've limited it to 5 of which, (3) are fairly reasonable, pricewise. That's a relative term, I know! Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: D. MacDuff
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 19:19:03 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
A good piano is a good piano, I don't care what the fallboard says. But, IMHO ... 1. Mason and Hamlin (Both sizes of grands and the upright) 2. Steinway (The large ones: 7' and 9' grands) 3. Baldwin (the 6' grands, large ones are too bass heavy) 4. Yamaha (most models good when not too harsh) 5. Kawai (good if transition from mellow bottem to bright top is OK)

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: Granholm Bros
To: Jerry jjcarp@bright.net.com
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:26:24 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I have puchased & refinished several pianos and have always wondered how good of a piano I have. It would be very interesting to me to have some piano people list the five name brands that they think are the best.(i.e. story clark, gulbranson etc) I think this would be a service to many readers. Thanks Jerry Carpenter jjcarp@bright.net.com
---
How about some clarification, Jerry? Uprights or grands (Ivers & Pond built great uprights, but their grands wouldn't make my top 5)? What years--the 'golden age' (1890-1925) or modern pianos? American instruments, or do you want foreign brands considered? John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: 1948 Story and Clark
From: Steve Mc
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:39:55 (EDT)
Email Address: irish311@prodigy.net

Message:
I just bought a 1948 Story and Clark console in good shape for $200. Did I get a good deal? How long should I wait before I have it tuned? Any other helpful hint?

Subject: Re: 1948 Story and Clark
From: David Burton
To: Steve Mc
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:37:40 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Congratulations! Yeah for that money if everything works, no dead notes, etc. you got a good deal. First place the piano on a flat hard surface, not a carpet if you can help it, about four inches away from a wall and not over a heater. Second, have it tuned at least twice the first year and twice every year thereafter when the seasons change in your area. If it has to live on a carpet you'll have to tune it more often. Story & Clark of that vintage were better than the more recent ones but still had a kind of bright light sound. You may like it that way. After you've had it for a year or so and you want to voice it down you can try, but those pianos were never known for their subtle points. I suggest getting your piano playing ability up on it until you feel ready for something a little better. Keep it in tune though as that will help you want to keep playing it.

Subject: quidos
From: p legault
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 05:20:49 (EDT)
Email Address: labratter@yahoo.com

Message:
Has anyone ever heard of a piano manufacturer called Quidos?.....

Subject: Re: quidos
From: David Burton
To: p legault
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:30:15 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
The name you mean is most likely Quidoz out of French Canada. Two listings under that name in the Pierce Piano Atlas. One thought to be made by Willis also a French Canadian piano maker after 1907.

Subject: Piano manufactured by Lurch
From: Steve M
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 20:36:39 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Can anyone give me any information on a piano made by Lurch. The serial number is 19711. It has Stech components and was probably made around 1900 or so.

Subject: Re: Piano manufactured by Lurch
From: David Burton
To: Steve M
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 06:23:53 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Hey I thought you were putting me on but I decided to look it up in the Pierce Piano Atlas, 'Lurch Piano Co. 12 E 23rd New York, sold at retail from factory.' That's all they have. Steck parts? Who knows. Unless you can establish a link by address or some other means between Steck and Lurch or unless the parts themselves have some indelible reference to Steck on them, you can't know for sure. And even so, then what? It was probably as my piano tech friend calls them, 'just another turn of the century no name upright out of New York.' They made literally thousands, tens of thousands of them until the market fell through the floor after the crash of 1929. That economic seizmic shockwave effected everything including the American piano business. A lot of no names went belly up never to be heard from again, most are good riddance too.

Subject: piano rating
From: Jerry Carpenter
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:30:12 (EDT)
Email Address: jjcarp@bright.net.com

Message:
I asked for a few piano knowledgable people to list thier top five name brand choices of piano's and I got a list of very expensive piano's. I would greatly appreciate a new top five list of piano's that cost less than 10 thousand dollars new. This would be a very big help to me and greatly appreciated. Thanks Jerry

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: David Burton
To: Jerry Carpenter
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:16:40 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Oh, pianos that cost less than $10,000? Well, probably none of them would be grands ok? You might get very very lucky and find a rebuilt grand for under $10,000 but the chances are rather remote and may not be as good as an upright. So let's consider just uprights. I like my Schubert upright piano. It is fairly new and was made in Belarus (Russia) at the Borisova factory near Minsk. These have Siberian spruce soundboards, German actions, French hammers (soft but need frequent attention), weighted keys. They require extensive technical help to bring them out including new pedals on mine. But I have heard and felt such improvement in mine since I have had it worked on regularly that I think I'll keep it for a very long time. They can be had for cheap if you find them. Beware, some of the newer ones were made in China and are Pearl River pianos that are nothing like mine. They sound tiny and feel like playing a toy piano. OK, then there are the various Baldwin Accrosonic uprights out there,the kind that used to be seen in a lot of schools. Get one made before 1960 and restore it. Make sure it's tall enough, the soundboard is in good condition etc. The idea of course is that these are basic workhorse pianos that actually can become better than they seem with technical help, especially voicing. Neither of these alternatives should cost you more than $5,000. If you want to spend a little more then you get into the dicey but occasionally wonderful restored old upright market. Here having a piano tech come with you to evaluate what you are looking at IS A MUST! Here you might find something that's really incredible. But please beware. Don't be fooled by the outside. Look inside the piano. Make sure the pinblock has been replaced, have your tech check the soundboard, downbearing and crown, what shape the bridges are in, the condition of the plate, etc. I'm getting really tired of hearing about piano dealers who sell these things like some used car dealers. They may try and sell something for several thousand that isn't worth but a few hundred if that. If he says it's real ivory take a good look. If the key tops are thin, it probably isn't. If the piano plays with a soft touch, it's probably not what you want. Likewise a hard touch isn't any good either. The action was probably never restored or done badly. I'm sure that the restoration business will be getting better over time. There's certainly enough enthusiasm there. I will be making it my business to find out and go out and play as many of these as I can and report back here what I find out. Someone said that buying a piano was a very emotional experience. It is. You have to really go out and play a lot of pianos and get educated about them. There's a whole wide wonderful world of experiences out there and occasionally some really good deals too. As for Asian pianos. For the money, I like their uprights better than their grands. I like the Yamahas, almost bought one, the Kawais and the Young Changs. I also liked the European uprights but some of them are really too expensive for what they are except those out of the Czech Republic and they need a tech to help them along. Yes, you can find a piano under $10K, even under $5K that is good as long as you adhere to basic rules, it most likely will be an upright and it must be at least 52' tall. After that, there's probably more selection than there is among the grands. Will you get 'great'? No, probably not, but you might be very pleasantly surprised.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: ryan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 10:32:46 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
David, Thanks for the comment about some of the newer Schubert vertical pianos being made by Pearl River. I was not aware of that fact. I spotted a new Schubert vertical the other day and after playing it for a bit, I wondered what you saw in them:-) Good to know that they aren't all like that one. You mentioned that European uprights are 'too expensive for what they are'. I think that's true in a lot of cases, but not all. I have played some German verticals that were absolutely fantastic, better than than 6' grands in the same price range and not a far cry from grands made by the same company. Of course verticals are never going to sound or play like a concert grand, but I think you get a LOT of piano for the money with some of them. Fantastic action, response, tone, etc. etc. There is one in particular that has easily handled music that makes most verticals fall over. Ryan

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:49:36 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Ryan said, 'Thanks for the comment about some of the newer Schubert vertical pianos being made by Pearl River. I was not aware of that fact. I spotted a new Schubert vertical the other day and after playing it for a bit, I wondered what you saw in them:-) Good to know that they aren't all like that one.' Yep, that was a nice Chinese toy piano there. Mine is closer to something Petrof might be making. You can still get Belarus pianos that are like mine and they aren't very much money either. It's amazing how mine has developed over the two years I've had it. As I've played it more it seems to have gotten richer toned and still plays fairly well. Of course I have a great tech too who is coming for to tune and adjust my piano on Friday, a banner day on my calendar for sure. Ryan says, 'You mentioned that European uprights are 'too expensive for what they are'. I think that's true in a lot of cases, but not all. I have played some German verticals that were absolutely fantastic, better than 6' grands in the same price range and not a far cry from grands made by the same company.' Some of you have read what I said about Ibach pianos. Their uprights are incredible pianos, everything Ryan says about some of his faves. Since I really tend to think of German pianos as top of the heap I'd probably always like a nice German upright. But I don't know if I really want to spend $12,000 to $15,000 on an upright. My fave in that category is the Mason & Hamlin which is believe me quite a nice little piano. Ryan says further, 'Of course verticals are never going to sound or play like a concert grand, but I think you get a LOT of piano for the money with some of them. Fantastic action, response, tone, etc. etc. There is one in particular that has easily handled music that makes most verticals fall over.' And which one is that? Please let all of us know. Yeah if I were confined for space, living in some closet in Manhattan or something, and knowing I'd probably be there for a number of years, and if I had the money..... I'd fly over to Schwelm and see what Ibach would sell me for cash and have it shipped back. LOL.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: ryan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 11:02:22 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
>And which one is that? It's a Sauter 130. It has a feature in the action that causes the hammer to return faster which makes it faster and allows you to restrike a key without raising it completely. I spent 2 hours A/Bing it with various high quality grands and could not detect any differences in the action, which really surprised me; usually the difference is pretty noticeable. So far I have played book I of Bach's Well Tempered Clavier, Mozart's Am and C Sonatas, Beethoven's Op. 53, several etudes from Chopin's Op. 10, Chopin's 1st and 4th Ballades, and a Rachmaninov Etude Tableaux. It handled them as well as some of the best grands I have played. Next I am going to try Listzt's 6th Hungarian Rhapsody (the one with the repeated octaves), Ravel's Gaspard and Mirrior, and parts of Stravinsky's Petrouchka sweet for piano. Parts of these pieces are unplayable on most verticals, but I will let you know if Sauter can handle them. The tone on this piano is singing and beautiful. The notes ring with a beautiful resonance. If you've played Ibach verticals you probably get the idea. I am limited for space, but could probably find room for a grand piano. The only problem is that I may only have $15000 to spend, and just can't bring myself to buy any of the grands that I have tried in that price range. In my small house, though, an upright would be much more convenient. Ryan

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:37:06 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
What a repertoire, Ryan, you must be quite a pianist! You deserve a great piano to do all of that on. Have never run into a Sauter myself though have heard of them. Thanks for the report.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: ryan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:10:44 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
David, thanks for the complement. While the pieces are impressive, unfortunately my performance is often not:-) I've been away from playing for a while and the rust is a bit thick! If you ever run accross a Sauter, I would be interested to hear what you think. I checked out the piano again last night for a few minutes because I wanted to make sure I didn't misrepresent it. As far as the action, you can restrike a key after lifting it only a small amount, but it still isn't exactly like a grand. I don't really notice the difference when I am playing. It's action is not be as good as the best grands, but it is very playable. The sound quality is similar to a 6' grand, which means that it doesn't sound like a 7' or 8' grand piano. Of course, what does! I'll post later when I decide whether to buy it or not. BTW, Sauter makes a 6'1' grand that plays rings around Steinways up to the B when it's voiced and set up correctly.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 00:25:23 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Ryan remarked, 'BTW, Sauter makes a 6'1' grand that plays rings around Steinways up to the B when it's voiced and set up correctly.' Yeah I know, lots of pianos especially German ones do, but shhhhh, don't tell Steinway. LOL.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: David Burton
To: Jerry Carpenter
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:43:07 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
OK I'm game. Top five: 1) Fazioli (if you can afford one) 2) and of the following take your pick; Ibach, Bechstein, Hamburg Steinway, Grotrian, Steingraeber, Bosendorfer, all of the German persuasion, you catch my drift? 3) Mason & Hamlin, takes the American prize hands down, honorable mention to Falcone. 4) Steinway, 5) Baldwin, YES BALDWIN. Like Wagner's music, better than they sound. No just kidding. But get one in good working order and it will reward you longer for the money than any of the others particularly if you're not just a classical music fiend like me.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: John
To: Jerry Carpenter
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 11:07:00 (EDT)
Email Address: jbardos@wcom.net

Message:
Jerry, Read your posts and have some better news for you than the other posts. Last February, I bought a Young Chang G175 (5' 9'') for about $8700 after a trade in of $1000 for a Yamaha Clavinova. I must say for the money, Young Chang is the TOP piano , if your looking at new that is. The down side is you have to play them, and play them and play them, and tune them at least 4 times the first year. Now I have played Petrof, Yamaha, Steinway, etc etc
---
and I have an extremely picky ear. I would never steer anyone wrong, because choosing a piano is a very emotional process. BTW, Make sure you keep your home temperature constant and a de-humidifier in the basement running at full, no matter what piano you get. You'll save yourself alot of frustration in regulating your instrument.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: ryan
To: John
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 14:26:53 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Well, everybody has their opinion. So, my opinion is that if I were going to drop $10000 on a piano, I would look for a quality vertical. I have A/B'ed the 5'9' Young Chang with a used Shimmel upright, a new Charles Walter, and a used Steinway upright, and I thought all three had it all over the Young Chang in terms of tone, and may have had a slight edge in touch and responsiveness as well. The Young Chang is not a bad grand piano, but there are verticals that are better for the same price. I also AB'ed the YC Pramberger against some verticals in it's price range (~$15,000 $16,000) like Sauter, and the Sauter had it all over the YC PG in every category. Actually, the Sauter 130 is among some of the best pianos I have played in terms of action and tone. Not quite as good as some of the best concert grands like Bosendorfer and Steingraber, but then it's just a fraction of the cost. Anyway, that's just my opinion. I used to be sold on grands and turned my nose up at all uprights, but that viewpoint has been changed after playing some outstanding pianos that were verticals. Ryan

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: ryan
To: Jerry Carpenter
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:25:01 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
You've probably heard this before, the there is a manufacturer section in The Piano Book by Larry Fine. It's pretty clear which pianos are considered great, good, or junk. I don't think I can think of five pianos that I like for under 10 grand. Charles Walter makes a good upright that is suitable for a lot of music, although the action falls behind a bit in very fast music like Chopin's Etudes.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: Joy
To: Jerry Carpenter
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:02:51 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
You wanted thie list of TOP pianos. You didn't say you wanted good CHEAP pianos, which is probably an oxymoron.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: Joy
To: Joy
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:35:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
PS: You must be thinking only of verticals. No way no how can you get a GRAND with your criteria that's NEW.

Subject: Re: piano rating
From: jerry
To: Joy
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 17:46:30 (EDT)
Email Address: jjcarp

Message:
PS: You must be thinking only of verticals. No way no how can you get a GRAND with your criteria that's NEW.
---

Subject: Piano Sales Forum
From: Bruce
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:59:56 (EDT)
Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com

Message:
I recently started work in Piano sales at a local family owned music store. Are there any forums where salespersons can swap and share ideas? Bruce

Subject: Re: Piano Sales Forum
From: David Burton
To: Bruce
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 04:03:41 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
All a reputable piano sales person needs to know is everything he or she can find out about pianos both the ones he or she is selling and all the others. There's a lot out there, including the huge used market. No matter what, TELL THE TRUTH. Hopefully your store is not involved in selling junk and yeah there is some junk out there, new as well as used.

Subject: Re: Piano Sales Forum
From: Bruce Towell
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 22:06:36 (EDT)
Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com

Message:
David, Well your preachin' to the choir, when you comment, Telling the truth! I happened to find this site, while I was doing research on pianos. I was in the market for a new piano, and although I have played pianos for many years, realized i had never taken the time to 'kick the tires' and 'look under the hood' sort of speak. I was leaning towards a certain manufacturer, but wanted to learn about as many different brands as possible. Well, to make a long story short, my initial leanings were confirmed to my satisfaction, so much that I decided to go into the piano selling business and sell them! Problem is a lot of our competition does NOT speak truthfully about the piano we sell, so this is leading us to fight fire with fire. Since this forum is a great place for techs to discuss the trade, thought it would be interesting for the salesforce to have a place to exchange and vent. Hope I have explained myself clearly. But I do agree with your comments for sure!!..Thanks for responding. Bruce Towell

Subject: Re: Piano Sales Forum
From: David Burton
To: Bruce Towell
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 30, 1999 at 00:02:23 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
David, Well your preachin' to the choir, when you comment, Telling the truth! I happened to find this site, while I was doing research on pianos. I was in the market for a new piano, and although I have played pianos for many years, realized i had never taken the time to 'kick the tires' and 'look under the hood' sort of speak. I was leaning towards a certain manufacturer, but wanted to learn about as many different brands as possible. Well, to make a long story short, my initial leanings were confirmed to my satisfaction, so much that I decided to go into the piano selling business and sell them! Problem is a lot of our competition does NOT speak truthfully about the piano we sell, so this is leading us to fight fire with fire. Since this forum is a great place for techs to discuss the trade, thought it would be interesting for the salesforce to have a place to exchange and vent. Hope I have explained myself clearly. But I do agree with your comments for sure!!..Thanks for responding. Bruce Towell
---
Very clearly. I like your idea, maybe you'd consider coming over to my website and starting a thread with some initial remarks. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505

Subject: tuning old bechstein
From: sw barksdale
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:42:12 (EDT)
Email Address: swbarksdale@mediaone.net

Message:
Please advise. We own a lovely Bechstein grand from about 1906. We bought it in 1984 and the transition from a damp cool environment in England to a dry, heated environment in Connecticut opened a few cracks in the sound board. Now we live in Atlanta and try to keep humidified in winter. The action was somewhat sticky so our piano technician took it out,cleaned it, adjusted it, replaced felt and I'm not sure what else but he didn't replace any major working parts. This piano is too mellow for a concert hall but we love its rich tone for our home. Now, to the question. Our piano technician has disappeared--phone disconnected, no good byes. He always tuned the piano slightly lower (I don't remember how much) than A440 because he said that when it was built the standard was lower and it was not made to be tuned and played at the greater tension. The opinion of some other technicians we've talked to is that tuning to a lower pitch is just laziness on the part of the tuner who just doesn't want to deal with broken pins and popping stings, etc. Can anyone give us some independent advice on what we should do? Thank you!

Subject: Re: tuning old bechstein
From: Niles Duncan
To: sw barksdale
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 17:07:58 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
He probably tuned it to A 435 which was more or less the standard around the turn of the century. It probably wasn't out of laziness as some of the other technicians have suggested, but out of an honest conviction that that was the best thing to do for that piano. Some technicians are very conservative and afraid of older pianos. His convictions aside, there should be no reason not to tune it to A 440. The piano unless it has a defect in the plate should be quite able to hold that pitch. I've had and rebuilt a number of old Bechstien grands and had no problem with tuning them to 440. Since you have had it regularly tuned and maintained at probably 435 I wouldn't expect any strings or other things breaking when raising the pitch. However it will require a pitch raise rather than a regular tuning to bring it up and probably several follow up tunings afterward to stabilize it at the new higher pitch. Also at the higher pitch it may sound a bit brighter and less mellow. You'll have to decide whether you like it at 440, but if you notice a difference and at first don't like it, give it some time since we have a tendency to like what we are used to. Since the piano is used in the home for personal enjoyment, if you decided you would rather have it tuned to the lower pitch there would be nothing wrong with that. Niles Duncan piano rebuilder www.pianosource.com

Subject: Marilyn Monroe's piano...
From: John D.
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:50:57 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Just wondering if anyone knows who was the manufacturer of the white grand piano that Marilyn Monroe owned - the piano that Mariah Carey just paid $600,000 for?

Subject: buzzeeeee
From: Alan
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 10:18:31 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Brought a new upright European piano for a few weeks, few days after deliverary a buzzing sound developed in the E and F note just above and below the middle C region. And the annoying buzze might disappear for a few days and come back. The technician have been in a few times, tighten all possible loose parts, have the piano tune, the sound is still there. Seem to be the sound is comes from the sound board, the reason is when I put my hand on the back of the sound board, the buzze sound is muted, take my hand off it is back. I also noticed that when I press the F note, I can feel the vibration on the right peddle. Any one have any remedy for it? Appreciate any help.

Subject: 1889 Emerson Piano
From: SteveMc
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 08:57:57 (EDT)
Email Address: smcananama@chicopee.turbocare.com

Message:
I just looked at an Emerson from 1889. The right pedal is not functioning and there is part of one key missing. Overal the piano is in good shape. Is this worth $100. I have picutres if anyone is interested.

Subject: Re: 1889 Emerson Piano
From: David Burton
To: SteveMc
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 05:25:24 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I don't know, probably not worth much more than that. Have a tech look at it to see how easy it would be to fix the pedal. That's the damper pedal so it's required. Most of these pianos are ready for the piano boneyard. It takes a good tech to spot out a good one that's that old.

Subject: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: Vicci
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 15:54:20 (EDT)
Email Address: vholbrook-hughes@talk21.com

Message:
Thoughts and advice please. Those in the know may despair at this question but please bear with me, I would appreciate the help! The choice is, Challen baby grand, slightly damaged case (though superficial damamge only) 10 year old Yamaha (U1?) hardly played. Which is better? Prices similar so not an issue, space not too much of an issue, I really want advice about quality from a technical and playing point of view.Many thanks.

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: David Burton
To: Vicci
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:18:03 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Your Challen grand if it's new was made in Malaysia, if not it was made in England. Either way if it isn't at least 5'7' or larger forget it. As for the Yamaha U1, that's more of a standard piano that most piano techs know well and like. You're much better off with that given the choice IMHO.

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: Brian Holden
To: Vicci
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:19:01 (EDT)
Email Address: bholden@wave.co.nz

Message:
Vicci Definitly go for the Yamaha U1 - there's no match. The U1 is a lovely piano and is now regarded by many as being the standard that other pianos are compared. Because of it's height, the string length is probably greater than the Baby Grand, giving it a supurb rich tone. On the other hand, the Challen, which is an excellent brand, does not produce a good baby grand - that's if it's anything like the one I tuned yesterday. The tone was dead in the tenor to bass section and the piano in general, lovely as it looked, was a compromise mechanically. Like many baby grands, it did not have a 'proper' grand action, and no genuine una corda pedal system, as what normally would be expected in a grand. Go for the U1 Brian Holden - and no, I do not work for Yamaha!

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: Vicci
To: Brian Holden
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:20:18 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Brian Holden Many thanks for your reply, much appreciated. I have actually made a mistake on the size of this piano, I'll explain! This piano has been 'hidden away' unused for many years I kept looking at it and thinking what a shame for it not to be used, but I did not havbe the room to have it. Ten years later, I returned to this place and it is still there!! (waiting?!) Because it is in a very large room it looked like a 'baby', but not that I have re-measured it, it is actually just over 6'4' (forgive my ignorance but I am right in measuring the WHOLE length of the piano?). It has an una corda pedal (didnt know what that was until I read various notes in the forum so thanks all for that!) but no 'middle' pedal though again, reading various notes this doesnt seem to be too much of an issue as such) Can I presume on you further and ask for more details about 'Challen' - do they still manufacture?, have they been 'bought' by someone else? If Im asking too much by all means tell me! Many thanks.

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: Brian
To: Vicci
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 02:37:18 (EDT)
Email Address: bholden@wave.co.nz

Message:
If the piano has 6'4' case then it will be a better proposition than the baby. However, get someone to confirm that it does have a genuine grand action. The Challen uprights we have here in new Zealand are in the 1960s era and are found in many schools. They are a robust piano and hold their tunings well. When I was in Bristol (England) a couple of years ago, I visited a small facory/workshop (Mickleburgs?) where they were assembling some new upright models. They looked pretty good. That's the extent of my knowledge on Challens. Brian bholden@wave.co.nz

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: Niles Duncan
To: Vicci
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 01:16:35 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
I presume you have played both of these pianos. Which do you like better? That should have some part of the choice. I also get the feeling since you are looking at two totally different pianos, one a 6'4' grand and the other a studio upright, pianos as different as night from day, and express no preference between them that perhaps you haven't tried out enough different pianos to develop your tastes, and it could be too soon to buy something that you are going to live with for a very long time. If you are seriously interested in the Challen grand (and it may well be worth your serious interest) it would be a good idea to have a technician evaluate it and give you an accurate picture of its age and condition before making any decision. This could be a very nice piano, or it could be a total money pit, or anything in between. We can't tell over the internet, and no matter how good a maker Challen may have been when this piano was made says nothing about how good it is now in its present condition. Niles Duncan independent piano rebuilder www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: David Burton
To: Vicci
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:35:34 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Your Challen grand if it's ten years old was made in England and at 6'4' is probably at least interesting,possibly really great but for the same money as a Yamaha U1? I don't understand why anyone would sell a WORKING 6'4' grand for the same price as an upright. Yes, Challen of England has gone Asian as about 1996. But the grand you describe certainly sounds as though it were one of the last of its breed. Would be curious about where it is and how much the guy wants for it.

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: vicci
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 15:31:01 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks all, some very sound advice here! You are right, I have not tried that many pianos but I guess like all of us Im looking for one of those rare lucky bargains(!!)- may come to nothing, but with all due respect to you David, at this time I'd rather not say where it is!!! (I'm sure you understand!) I will certainly take Niles' advice about getting an expert to go over it but I wanted to sound out a few thoughts/ideas first to see if was worth the chase! Incidentally, its 10 years since I last saw it, but I know that it is at least 20 years old plus. So, next step, get an expert in!!

Subject: Re: Choice? Challen baby/Yamaha upright?
From: David Burton
To: vicci
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:27:46 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Sounds like a nice old English Challen to me. Could be a real nice piano..... or it could be a dog, best have a tech give it a good look over.

Subject: saint seans upright
From: Wendy
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:09:01 (EDT)
Email Address: potter@rky.imag.net

Message:
I own a saint seans upright that I believe to be about 80-90 yrs old. I'm looking for some exact info. These were made in Toronto Canada is all the info I can collect. Thank you.

Subject: Re: saint seans upright
From: David Burton
To: Wendy
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 00:10:23 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Pierce Piano Atlas: Colonial Piano Co. around 1920 used the Saint Seans name. Colonial pianos in Canada between 1915 and 1927 were made by Doherty. There was a Colonial Piano Company in Boston but not much known there. W. Doherty & Co. made pianos in Canada from 1875 to as late as 1961. They in turn were taken over by another outfit called Sherlock-Manning in 1920. So what? Your Saint Seans piano was probably made around 1920. If your piano's serial number falls between 11900 and 16000 (Doherty's numbers) then we have a positive match. Next of course is to get a good tech to take a good look at it and see if its structurally sound, etc.

Subject: What Grand for $20-30k?
From: Robyn
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 22:25:08 (EDT)
Email Address: boobell@aol.com

Message:
Looking to spend about $20-30k for a grand (around 6'0'). Really like the sound of Petrof III, but unsure as to the quality. Whats your choice if you had this amount to spend? Prefer to Play classical and songwriters.

Subject: Re: What Grand for $20-30k?
From: Mat D.
To: Robyn
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 29, 1999 at 00:06:30 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
One of our fellow 'Piano Forum' members recently bought (at mt suggestion) a brand new Mason & Hamlin BB (7') for $31,000. This is one of the finest instruments you can buy at any price! He was ready to buy a used Steinway B and I suggested he look at the M&H, he found a dealer (2) hours from his home, drove there and fell in love
---
bought it on the spot; in his words to me in an e-mail 'the piano of my dreams'. This is not an uncommon reaction, I had exactly the same feeling the forst time I sat down at my M&H BB. BTW M&H also offers a beautiful 5'8' grand which IMO is the best piano you can buy in this size range. Petrof is a very nice instrument, but not in the same class with the M&H or Steinway. That is not to speak negatively of Petrof--they are excellent. Before you buy, check out the M&H, I'd hate to have you find it after you buy something else and then be sorry you didn't do enough research. http://www.masonhamlin.com/ or call Cecil Ramirez (916)567-9999-ext118 (National Sales Manager) for dealer info. Let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Re: What Grand for $20-30k?
From: David Burton
To: Robyn
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:14:42 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
It's a matter of personal taste. I like the Petrof sound and feel too and I am not sure just how long they will be priced as low as they currently are. But there are lots of other contenders from all over the world both new and used. I suggest you go out and play lots and lots of pianos and find out a lot about pianos because once you find 'your' piano you'll know. Is it kind of like dating? Yeah it is.

Subject: W.E. WHEELOCK CO.
From: Ron R.
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 00:46:25 (EDT)
Email Address: madtay70@aol.com

Message:
I have inherited an old W.E. Wheelock co. piano anyone with any information about this company or where I can find info. it would be greatly appreciated. madta70@aol.com

Subject: Re: W.E. WHEELOCK CO.
From: David Burton
To: Ron R.
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:45:06 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
OK, Wheelock also William E. Wheelock or just plain W. E. Wheelock was one of the original makers associated with Aeolian which later absorbed American and became the biggest American piano combine for nearly fifty years. Were they distinguished in any way? Not really. Mostly old uprights made in what's now a burned out part of East Harlem on Manhattan's upper east side from the 1880's through at least the beginning of the second world war.

Subject: upright piano
From: virginia
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 13:22:14 (EDT)
Email Address: mcaran@cass.net

Message:
piano has only this info on inside made in america for the advancement of music 356400 national assn. of music merchants division member music industries chamber of commerce cassnet cass.net cass.net

Subject: Re: upright piano
From: David Burton
To: virginia
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:33:32 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
You stumped me. I don't know what it is.

Subject: tempo
From: bluesky
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 12:25:50 (EDT)
Email Address: blueskyscc@hotmail.com

Message:
hello, everyone. I have a question that bother me for so long, and that is, tempo. I have a hard time play those fast songs especially with the felling that is 'allegro'. Can anyone please tell me how to pactice right hand and left hand. And then, how to practice two hands together with the melody of songs. Thank you very very much! bluesky

Subject: Re: tempo
From: David Burton
To: bluesky
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:24:49 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
It seems you need a piano teacher to give you a regular exercise program and encouragement. Seek out someone who teaches adults from beginner level. I'd look for someone to concentrate on things like POSTURE, HAND & ARM positioning, BREATHING, as well as building finger dexterity and memory. You might try your inquiry on the Piano Player's forum on this same website.

Subject: Canadian August Forster
From: Christine
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:11:57 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am looking at an August Forster that is built in for the Canadian Market and is made in the Czech Republic. Is this the equal of a Petrof christine

Subject: Canadian August Forster
From: Christine
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:11:53 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am looking at an August Forster that is built in for the Canadian Market and is made in the Czech Republic. Is this the equal of a Petrof christine

Subject: Otto bach
From: daniel
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 19:53:38 (EDT)
Email Address: dantrcs@yahoo.com

Message:
I'm interested about information on otto bach pianos, but i can't find anything.Anyone can help me?do you know anything about them? What's you opinion?do they have a web page?... Thanks!!!!

Subject: Re: Otto bach
From: David Burton
To: daniel
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 23:07:52 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Otto Bach, Bernhard Steiner and P.A.Starck are affiliated with Dietmann which may have actually manufactured pianos in SOUTH AFRICA. OK, if you really want to try and find out more, try writing someone at Dietmann headquarters, 5840 Alpha Road, Dallas, TX 75240. Best of luck.

Subject: Yamaha G-2
From: Sheila
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:22:46 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
What is your opinion of the Yamaha G-2? I'm considerting buying a 5'8'. Am told it is 10-14 years old. It will be for my two children, the older who has been playing for 9 years and is quite good. Price tag $8,500. Sheila

Subject: Re: Yamaha G-2
From: sam lewis piano
To: Sheila
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 21:57:19 (EDT)
Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com

Message:
G-2 generally good piano. G series is 'consumer' oriented line from Yamaha, as opposed to 'C' series, more pro oriented. Truth is , doesnt matter to most people. Have a pro tuner/tech check it out. $8500. good price (in Nashville Tn market)if all is ok . Good luck

Subject: Re: Yamaha G-2
From: sam lewis piano
To: Sheila
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 21:55:40 (EDT)
Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com

Message:
G-2 generally good piano. G series is 'consumer' oriented line from Yamaha, as opposed to 'C' series, more pro oriented. Truth is , doesnt matter to most people. Have a pro tuner/tech check it out. $8500. good price (in Nashville Tn market)if all is ok . Good luck

Subject: Madison Grand
From: Bruce
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:46:47 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Looked and heard a new Madison Grand. Am impressed with sound, tone and touch. Sound tech who has been in business for years likes them, but they are so new I can't get any history. Do you know how they hold up? Thinking of buying it for my freshman high school daughter who has played for years and is well past needing to move on from our upright. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Bruce

Subject: Re: Madison Grand
From: David Burton
To: Bruce
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 23:06:16 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
According to the Pierce Piano Atlas, a MADISON PIANO CO. was founded in 1900 and located in the Bronx, NY. It was associated with Krackauer, which was indeed one of those other brands 'that used to be compared with Steinway in its day', not that any old Madison was ever anything like a Steinway, ok? Info on serial numbers is apparently quite space. After the Great Depression set in and Krackauer went under, the Madison name was used by Winter, National and Lester. The grands were made by Lester. After World War II, the Madison name was used by Winter. We aren't talking anything particularly distinguished here. I bet that most Madisons are mostly consoles however as I keep reiterating if I found a 5'7' Madison grand made before 1930 which would make it a Krackauer second if such a thing really exists, for reasonable, around $2,000 everything working, I'd be interested. If your Madison dealer has a new grand I bet that it's made somewhere in Asia, probably in Korea. If it's 5'2'or 5'3' or less, I'd not be interested. If you meant MADDISON instead, that's a Chinese piano made by Tom Lee in Hong Kong. Yeah, not recommended.

Subject: Re: Madison Grand
From: Bruce
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 10:02:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks for your info. After a little more research, I've discovered the 'Madison' IS 'Maddison'. The piano tech that sells them says they are made in Portuguese Mawai (spelling?), whereever that is. Do you think these are the poor pianos you know of from Hong kong ? He says the they have Kawaii action. I appreciate all the help you can give.

Subject: Re: Madison Grand
From: David Burton
To: Bruce
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:39:00 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Do you think these are the poor pianos you know of from Hong kong ? YEP.

Subject: Krakaver?
From: darrell
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 16:03:40 (EDT)
Email Address: dlgitz@worldnet.att.net

Message:
My daughter is 8 and is interested in learning the piano. Unfortunately I know nothing about such things, and I am putty in the hands of the slick salesmen. We are looking at a used grand with the name 'Krakaver', supposedly built in 1936, for $2900. The gentleman (who seems very honest) says the pinblock is tight and it should hold a tune, and that the action seems to be in good shape. Has anyone heard of this make? Does it seem to be a reasonable price (given that you haven't seen it, etc.) I am indebted to all...

Subject: Krakauer not Krakaver
From: David Burton
To: darrell
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 18:23:01 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Krakauer, another 'was compared with Steinway in its day' brand out of New York that survived for most of its life by limited production, something most quality piano makers should be doing anyway. Krakauer made a reasonably good midsized grand which is a ripe candidate for a rebuild if you get a good one; one that has been checked by a tech, especially the soundboard, bridges, plate, etc. First of all, if the piano is not at least 5'7' in length forget it. Second of all, get a tech to give it a good look over. Third, 1936 Krakauer serial numbers range from 57400 to 57900. Verify your piano by finding the serial and seeing if its in this range. Fourth, IF EVERYTHING WORKS and your tech gives you the green light and YOU LIKE THE PIANO, then negotiate the price down as low as you can. Fifth, reserve some cash, a few hundred dollars for the tech of YOUR choice to set up your piano properly.

Subject: Re: Krakaver?
From: John D.
To: darrell
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 16:32:47 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
My daughter is 8 and is interested in learning the piano. Unfortunately I know nothing about such things, and I am putty in the hands of the slick salesmen. We are looking at a used grand with the name 'Krakaver', supposedly built in 1936, for $2900. The gentleman (who seems very honest) says the pinblock is tight and it should hold a tune, and that the action seems to be in good shape. Has anyone heard of this make? Does it seem to be a reasonable price (given that you haven't seen it, etc.) I am indebted to all...
---
Darrell, First off I should say that I am not familiar with that brand of piano. However, I think most people on this forum will tell you that they cannot estimate the value of any piano without seeing it. The salesman may in fact be very honest when he says 'it should hold a tune' which may also mean that he simply doesn't know. If you are real serious about this piano, I'd DEFINITELY have it checked out by an independent technician before I bought it. If the pinblock is bad, you will regret buying this piano. The condition of the soundboard, bridges, ribs, strings etc... also need to be considered. The opinion of a qualified independent tech will be money well spent. Good luck, John D.

Subject: Why?
From: Anusha
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:31:43 (EDT)
Email Address: Anusha@lycosmail.com

Message:
I was wondering when and why the keys, that are now white, changed from black/brown to white(the way they are now).

Subject: Re: Why?
From: David Burton
To: Anusha
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 05:34:05 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Actually the same alterations between light naturals and dark sharps was always the norm. It was only the French who reversed the colors. It started with the virginals and spinets of the late 16th century, through the harpsichords of the 17th, Italian and Flemish using lighter colored woods for the naturals and darker for the sharps. Same with all the organ keyboards. When the French got into building harpsichords in the 17th century they started using bone topped sharps and made the naturals dark. The usual preference has been for the lighter naturals and darker sharps. This carried on into the age of pianos. With European exploration into Africa and the source for ivory and ebony the modern piano keyboard was standardized.

Subject: Re: Why?
From: Charlie
To: Anusha
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:39:11 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
I was wondering when and why the keys, that are now white, changed from black/brown to white(the way they are now).
---
This is mere speculation. Ebony (used now for the sharps) is extremely difficult to cut and machine because it is so hard. Ivory, until our environmental conscience kicked in, is quite easy to work. So the manufacturers probably realized their work would be easier if the larger surfaced keys (naturals) were white and the smaller surfaced keys (sharps) were black. If this isn't the reason, it was probably for some similarly practical reason. or for whimsy.

Subject: Older Yamaha
From: Sheila
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 17:46:25 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
In addition to the Yamaha I've asked about in earlier message, I've found one that is older, 26-30 years old, model G3, 6 feet. What do you think? Too old? Seller says tone is very good. Asking price $6,000. Sheila

Subject: Re: Older Yamaha
From: Niles Duncan
To: Sheila
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 00:45:19 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
In addition to the Yamaha I've asked about in earlier message, I've found one that is older, 26-30 years old, model G3, 6 feet. What do you think? Too old? Seller says tone is very good. Asking price $6,000.
---
It's impossible to say without seeing the piano. Some pianos of this age are good pianos, some are dogs. It just depends on where they've been and what they've been through. If you try out the piano and like it well enough to consider buying you need to have it checked out by a technician who can give you an accurate evaluation of the piano's true condition. Don't write the check without doing that. Seller says good tone? So what. Most piano owners haven't the foggiest idea what is the real condition of their piano. If more than half the hammers hit the strings they think it's in great condition with good tone. They often greatly understate the age of their pianos. The age can be verified by checking the serial number against the Pierce Piano Atlas, a reference book which most piano technicians own. The more I think about this and your other post regarding the Yamaha G2, even though I would normally prefer the G3 because it is longer, the G2 being significantly newer makes me lean in that direction if the only choice were to be between those two pianos. Yamaha has continually improved and refined their designs over the last 30 or so years. Again though you must verify the age from the serial number, because it may be misrepresented either from ignorance or intent. You need to try out the pianos and have your children play them since they will be using them. Then if you are interested in buying one get it evaluated by a piano technician. There is little specific help any of us can give you over the internet without seeing the pianos. Since you have a child who has been playing for 9 years and presumably is fairly advanced it is critical to buy the right piano at this time. Don't rush into this. Go out shopping and try out a lot of pianos so that you become an informed buyer by the time you make the purchase. Niles Duncan independent piano rebuilder www.pianosource.com

Subject: August Forster
From: Sinji
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 13:28:11 (EDT)
Email Address: sinji_tanjo@yahoo.com

Message:
Just wondering what people think of the August Forster piano. Not too many dealer carry this brand. Seems to be un-popular. Will it be hard to find people who can tune it?

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: Niles Duncan
To: Sinji
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 00:13:56 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Just wondering what people think of the August Forster piano. Not too many dealer carry this brand. Seems to be un-popular. Will it be hard to find people who can tune it?
---
I've had an August Foerster 215 (7'2') for about 10 years. I bought it new in 1989. Simply, it is a very beautiful piano. The sound is European, but on the dark side, more like a Bluthner than for example a Bechstein. Whether or not you like it is a matter of taste. The quality is outstanding. No, it won't be hard to find someone who can tune it. It's no different from tuning any other piano. Niles Duncan independent piano rebuilder www.pianosource.com

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: David Burton
To: Sinji
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:20:45 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
August Forster, another fine old make of German piano, probably similar to the Bechstein or Ibach. Never run into one myself. Am told by a tuner friend in Connecticut that they are something special for the right person. I expect they're rather expensive.

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: Joy
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 23:58:46 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
August Forster, another fine old make of German piano, probably similar to the Bechstein or Ibach. Never run into one myself. Am told by a tuner friend in Connecticut that they are something special for the right person. I expect they're rather expensive.
---
Here's something about it in Larry Fine's Addendum to 'The Piano Book': 'Please note that there is a piano sold under the August Förster name in Canada and several European countries which is made by Petrof and is similar to the Petrof piano. Except for the name, it has no connection to the August Förster pianos made in Germany. I'm told that this situation came about because of a legal conflict many years ago over the rights to the August Förster name, which resulted in an agreement specifying in which countries each manufacturer could market pianos under this name.' New importer/distributor address: German American Trading Co., Inc. 5008 W. Linebaugh Ave., Suite 36 Tampa, Florida 33624 813-961-8405

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: Christine
To: Joy
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:29:54 (EDT)
Email Address: cdandy@telusplanet.net

Message:
I am interested in the August Forster sold in Canada and made by Petrof. Has this been the case for a long time or is it a recent agreement? Any consumer reports on them? Are they as good as the Petrofs? Better? I am interested in tone as well as durability.

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: Christine
To: Joy
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 11:25:31 (EDT)
Email Address: cdandy@telusplanet.net

Message:

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: John D.
To: Sinji
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 19:00:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Just wondering what people think of the August Forster piano. Not too many dealer carry this brand. Seems to be un-popular. Will it be hard to find people who can tune it?
---
I don't believe this piano to be 'unpopular', just not very common - at least not in the US. I ran across one a few years ago and thought it was pretty nice. It had a kind of different sound that I wasn't sure I (personally) would like year after year. I can't imagine why you'd have any difficulty finding someone to tune it (or service it) for that matter. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: August Forster
From: Mat D.
To: John D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 00:07:58 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
I have played these pianos & they are beautiful; also very expensive. They come available in beautiful veneers, as well as traditional ebony. If you can find a dealer, check it out
---
-I'm sure any qualified tuner/technician can look after this piano for you. Let us know, Mat D.

Subject: Palmer Piano Information Request
From: Jim M
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 17:00:19 (EDT)
Email Address: kjbark@telusplanet.net

Message:
I have inherited a Palmer upright recently and would like to contact anyone who has some information to share about technical and other issues that are related. If you or someone you know would like to share some information with me it would be greatly appreciated.

Subject: Re: Palmer Piano Information Request
From: David Burton
To: Jim M
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 28, 1999 at 00:13:05 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
The Pierce Piano Atlas lists five separate listings for PALMER pianos. You'd have to supply us with more information, look inside and see if you can find any more information on the plate including a serial number.

Subject: Old russian piano
From: Edward Badescu
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 06:28:27 (EDT)
Email Address: edwardo_bad@hotmail.com

Message:
I have an old russian piano (1911) but except the name and the place where it was made I do not know anything else about it.The name is P.Pathke (or R.Rathke) and it was made in St.Petersburg.The serial number is 5831.Can you help me? Thank you!.

Subject: Re: Old russian piano
From: David Burton
To: Edward Badescu
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 27, 1999 at 02:23:45 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have an old russian piano (1911) but except the name and the place where it was made I do not know anything else about it.The name is P.Pathke (or R.Rathke) and it was made in St.Petersburg.The serial number is 5831.Can you help me? Thank you!.
---
The Pierce Piano Atlas mentions a Rathke R. at St.Petersburg, Russia in 1868. I'd like to state for the record that the make of a piano is only one consideration concerning its true value which must always frmain its value as a musical instrument in good working order first. It may be curious that you may own an obscure old Russian piano but much better if it is in good working condition. Size too is a measure of value. A very old too small piano in unplayable condition is practically worthless. A very large old piano,particularly a large upright or large grand in good working condition may be worth several thousands or even tens of thousands (very large grands only). If the piano isn't yours and you are serious about it,invite a technician to take a good look at it, inside, soundboard, bridges, plate, action, everything.

Subject: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition
From: Moham
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:36:19 (EDT)
Email Address: majouz@us.oracle.com

Message:
We are down to a short list of 2 studios: - Yamaha T116 - Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition 5050A Do you have good/bad experience with either model? There is quite a bit of negative feedback on Baldwin products on this forum and hence my concern. I have read the Larry Fine book and both models seem to be acceptable.

Subject: Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition
From: Rick
To: Moham
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:19:31 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Have you looked at the T121? It's a new 48' model released by Yamaha in February. Not much more expensive than the T116, and three inches taller. You won't find it in Larry Fine's book because it's new - you will find it in the supplement. I just purchased one for $4500, and it looks and sounds just beautiful (I am not a great pianist, however, I just wanted something for my children to start on). I am so happy with it. You should at least take a look - the extra three inches does make a difference. Good Luck!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition
From: CC
To: Rick
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 23:24:59 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I don't know if this is just a difference in competition in my geographic area, but I sure wasn't able to get the same kind of price on the T121 here. That's an excellent price on the T121 compared to what was available to me. Larry Fine puts the list price of the T121 at $5,990 and using the 'average' discount puts it down to $5,092. On some models my Yamaha dealer would drop price much better than others. The T121 was not one of them. I couldn't even get them down to the average discounted price on that particular model. Sounds like you found a great deal!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition
From: Cork
To: Moham
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:28:36 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
These are both good, entry-level pianos. Buy the one that sounds and feels the best to you. Don't worry about anyone else's opinion; only yours matters. Good luck, Cork

Subject: Re: Yamaha T116 vs Baldwin Hamilton Limited Edition
From: CC
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 00:00:34 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I just purchased the Yamaha T116 a few weeks ago and have been very happy with my decision. I personally preferred the T116 over the other studios I considered because I play with a lighter touch, which seemed better suited to the Yamaha, and I liked the tone of the Yamaha. It seemed to have a full rich tone, particularly in the bass section. (Although the technician I consulted when trying to make my choice between the Yamaha and the Kawai said Yamaha hardens their hammers a little bit to make it sound like that right away, vs over time. He said it would be easy to voice it down if it became too bright over time.) To me, music sounded more 'lively' on the Yamaha and I thought that would be helpful with young children in holding their interest. That's all just personal preference though. I think the Yamaha service bond is definitely a big plus. The Yamaha dealer was super in making sure I'm happy, as he's had a technician out here twice to tune and voice to my satisfaction. The free tunings will be very handy. I didn't realize just how 'tempermental' new pianos can be, so I think the follow-up is really important. The cabinetry on the T116 really does look nice too. Good luck!

Subject: Yamaha U1 Disklavier
From: Jeanie
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 22:13:09 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am considering buying a new piano, mostly for my 15 year old son who has been taking lessons for seven years and plays well. We will go from a warn out Haines Bros. upright likely to a Yamaha U1, recommended by his teacher. I also understand that Larry Fine recommends it too. While I am interested in any advice about the piano selection, my main question is whether we should purchase the disklavier (recordable disk version of the U1). I have been told by several store people that the extra disklavier stuff does not diminsh the acoustics. But it adds considerably (~$2500 or more) to the cost, and I don't want to get it if it will be a little used novelty. But I think my son would find it valuable to record his playing and he is also computer inclined, so might enjoy the other possibilities for midi, etc. Also, my other sons might be able to use it to accompany them on their other instruments? (one is a good singer, the other a trombone player). I have seen very little about disklavier on this forum
---
is that because they are considered not to be for real musicians? Thanks so much for any input. I have read and enjoyed your other discussions. Jeanie

Subject: Piano
From: Jonathan
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:02:49 (EDT)
Email Address: djmccann@sprint.ca

Message:
What do I do if the keys stick on my piano? Please return my email.

Subject: Re: Piano
From: David Burton
To: Jonathan
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:57:34 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Have your piano tech do some work on the action to unstick them. If he or she doesn't know how,get another piano tech.

Subject: Gulbransen Baby Grand
From: W. M. Hanley
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:03:02 (EDT)
Email Address: wmhanley@aol.com

Message:
I have a Gulbransen Baby Grand, SN 291200, built in 1929 in relatively good shape. It was tuned several months ago. Neither my wife nor I play and sons who did have moved away. Piano has been in our possession since 1976. We bought it from Christy Brinkley's mother...is ingraved underneath with her name. What is a ballpark figure for its worth?

Subject: Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand
From: Cork
To: W. M. Hanley
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:26:44 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano. The fact it was once Ms. Brinkley's instrument adds color, but not value. Hope that helps.

Subject: Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand
From: Niles Duncan
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 02:12:29 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano. The fact it was once Ms. Brinkley's instrument adds color, but not value. Hope that helps.
---
The part about evaluation of a used instrument not being possible over the internet is true. The statement that a technician is likely to be aware of market conditions in his local area affecting value of a piano is unlikely to be true. While a technician should be able to give an accurate evaluation of a piano's condition, most technicians are busy tuning and repairing not buying and selling and consequently are not well informed about market and price issues. In my local area asking prices on the private market for old baby grands by makers of no particular distinction (such as Gulbransen) that are basically in original condition are generally between $1000 and $2000. I think in this low end price range both asking and selling prices have more to do with whim and chance than any real relation to condition or value. Unless the piano has had some recent major work which could enhance its value like a full restringing or refinishing, I'd say advertise it in the classifieds for about $1500 in whichever local paper has the most ads for pianos and take the best offer.

Subject: Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand
From: ryan
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:59:07 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
>The statement that a technician is likely to be aware of market conditions in his local area >affecting value of a piano is unlikely to be true. While a technician should be able to give an >accurate evaluation of a piano's condition, most technicians are busy tuning and repairing not >buying and selling and consequently are not well informed about market and price issues. That is not my experience with technicians. All of the technicians that I have worked with have always been tuned into the local market and current prices. They mentioned privately owned pianos that were for sale and knew if the price was a good deal or not. Ryan

Subject: Re: Gulbransen Baby Grand
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:47:35 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Waiving aside whether a piano tech knows his local market or not, my experience is that most of them are very well aware of their local market, I liked what Niles Duncan had to say and would perhaps add these points. 1) It doesn't matter who may have owned a piano or played on it. Generally these things do not affect its real value unless, a) it's an 'art case' piano that was made for someplace special like the White House or Buckingham Palace or b) it has some definite and noticeable association with an artist, composer, etc. i. e. this was among the four or five legless pianos Beethoven threw on the floor upon which he wrote his whatevers. That's right, you wouldn't want them anyway. 2) Sometimes an off brand has a few things about it that can improve the value of the instrument, the most important one being size. I don't know whether Gulbransen ever made anything larger than a 5'2': baby grand. If that's what you have and nothing else has changed with it then $1,500-$2,000 is about right. However if it's like 5'7' or larger well then we have something potentially quite different. You can take a brand someone has never heard of and if it's a large grand from the 20's in reasonably good condition it may be a good candidate for restoration with incredible results since you can change a lot about how it will sound in the end; rescaling, choice of hammers, etc.

Subject: How many Black keys are on a piano keyboard?
From: Kris
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:39:52 (EDT)
Email Address: Krisee3113@aol.com

Message:
I am doing research (middle school project)on pianos and need to find the answer to this question. How many black keys are on a piano keyboard?

Subject: Re: How many Black keys are on a piano keyboard?
From: David Burton
To: Kris
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:31:01 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
36

Subject: Newby and Evans piano co
From: Beth
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:56:40 (EDT)
Email Address: beth1065@excite.com

Message:
Does anybody have information on the Newby and Evans Piano Co. that was in NY in the 1800's? I have an old upright that has the Newby and Evans plate in the back. I can't seem to find any serial numbers anywhere. I know without seeing it it's hard to put an amount on it. I think it is mahogany. Some of the keys don't work but the body of the piano is in very good condition. Does anybody have any idea how much this could be worth. Thanks

Subject: Re: Newby and Evans piano co
From: David Burton
To: Beth
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:29:04 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Beth, Have a tech take a look at the soundboard, bridges, etc. It's probably nothing fantastic, not worth restoring unless it's big and everything inside is basically sound. If just one key doesn't work that's enough to render it almost worthless. Alot of oud pianos are really ready for the boneyard so beware and take a tech along. They see things like cracks and other things that you may not notice.

Subject: Price for 60's Yamaha U1...
From: long
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:36:16 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'd like to know what's the fair resell price for a 64's-67's YAMAHA UI piano. thanks

Subject: Old Farrand Upright
From: Steve Kotula
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 17:14:05 (EDT)
Email Address: skotula@wa.freei.net

Message:
In looking for a good old upright, I have come across a Farrand that was made in 1892. It appears to have been well cared for and is in excellant condition even though it is over 100 years old and apears to be all original yet. It has a wonderful tone. The dealer who has it has it priced signifiacntly higher than other uprights that are in nearly as good a condiditon, or which have been somewhat refurbished. I have not been able to find any significant information of Farrand pianos. The dealer that has told me that in its day it was considered in the class with Steinways. I don't know if that has any truth or if it is mearly sales puffing to justify the price. Does anyone have any experience with Farrand pianos and /or an opinion as to their overall level of quality.

Subject: Re: Old Farrand Upright
From: David Burton
To: Steve Kotula
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:35:38 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
'The dealer that has told me that in its day it was considered in the class with Steinways.' Ah, these dealers! Have they no more creative senses than this, to keep prattling about how such and such a piano was considered 'in a class with Steinway'? Whether a piano has anything in common with a Steinway may or may not be significant. It depends on one's liking for or familiarity with Steinways. Otherwise it's no more than Steinway hype. The facts are that Farrand was an organ maker turned piano maker out of Holland, Michigan. Hey, don't turn your nose up yet. Fact is a lot of organ makers turned to making pianos including Mason & Hamlin. Is this particular piano any good? How much is he selling it for? Have you had a piano technician take a good look at it? Has the bearing and crown been checked. Is the soundboard made the way your piano tech thinks quality soundboards should be made? OK, I'll tell you what. If the piano in question hasn't been rebuilt at all. I don't care how nice it looks or how nice you think it plays, it isn't worth more than a few hundred dollars. Isn't that what you really want to know?

Subject: Re: Old Farrand Upright
From: Granholm Bros
To: Steve Kotula
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:27:35 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
In looking for a good old upright, I have come across a Farrand that was made in 1892. It appears to have been well cared for and is in excellant condition even though it is over 100 years old and apears to be all original yet. It has a wonderful tone. The dealer who has it has it priced signifiacntly higher than other uprights that are in nearly as good a condiditon, or which have been somewhat refurbished. I have not been able to find any significant information of Farrand pianos. The dealer that has told me that in its day it was considered in the class with Steinways. I don't know if that has any truth or if it is mearly sales puffing to justify the price. Does anyone have any experience with Farrand pianos and /or an opinion as to their overall level of quality.
---
Farrand doesn't usually appear on lists of great American piano makers, and there's no way I'd put them on a list with Steinway. Sounds like sales puffing to me. Find an independent piano technician and have that person thoroughly check any old upright you're considering buying, no matter who's selling it. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Baldwin 226
From: Darryl A
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 09:47:31 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am considering buying a 5'8'1966 Baldwin 226. The asking price from the dealer is $12,699 CDN (about $9,000 US equivalent). It has been reconditioned, the dealer is very reputable, and it has a 10 year parts and labour warranty. Part of my problem is that I live in a somewhat isolated community and my opportunity to piano shop is somewhat limited. Any help and advice is appreciated. They have other pianos that we are considering such as a Kawai RX-!A for $18,700 CDN but that is a bit out of my price range. No one in my family is an accomplished pianist, I have some music background (accordian and bassoon if you can believe that combination, but hey maybe zydeco baroque will be the next big thing). I want to start my 7 year old son on the piano and my wife has always wanted to learn and has always wanted a nice piano.

Subject: Re: Baldwin 226
From: Niles Duncan
To: Darryl A
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 02:24:32 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
I am considering buying a 5'8'1966 Baldwin 226. The asking price from the dealer is $12,699 CDN (about $9,000 US equivalent). It has been reconditioned, the dealer is very reputable, and it has a 10 year parts and labour warranty. Part of my problem is that I live in a somewhat isolated community and my opportunity to piano shop is somewhat limited. Any help and advice is appreciated. They have other pianos that we are considering such as a Kawai RX-!A for $18,700 CDN but that is a bit out of my price range. No one in my family is an accomplished pianist, I have some music background (accordian and bassoon if you can believe that combination, but hey maybe zydeco baroque will be the next big thing). I want to start my 7 year old son on the piano and my wife has always wanted to learn and has always wanted a nice piano.
---
I can't speak for this particular piano since I can't see it over the internet, and reconditioned can mean many things, however I think that a 5'8' Baldwin in good condition is an excellent choice in the under $10,000(U.S.) used piano market. I think $9000 is a bit high, but I don't know your local market nor have I seen this particular piano.

Subject: Considering a Hamilton
From: Gary
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 01:12:04 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
We are considering buying a Baldwin Hamilton Special Edition. We heard conflicting views about Baldwin losing its name and class vs others that say it is still a good buy for the non-professionals. Please advise.

Subject: Re: Considering a Hamilton
From: Cork
To: Gary
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:47:58 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I agree with Charlie. If you've shopped around and this is your favorite in its class, I'd buy it. There's a lot of disinformation in the market about Baldwin. Cork

Subject: Re: Considering a Hamilton
From: Charlie
To: Gary
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:06:55 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
We are considering buying a Baldwin Hamilton Special Edition. We heard conflicting views about Baldwin losing its name and class vs others that say it is still a good buy for the non-professionals. Please advise.
---
I believe Baldwin makes a fine piano and is under appreciated in the market. That is, they are better instruments than generally believed. I purchased a special edition Hamilton a few years ago and was quite happy with it. I traded it in earlier this year on a grand piano, otherwise I would still have it.

Subject: Tack Piano
From: John Giotto
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:52:01 (EDT)
Email Address: imprty@aol.com

Message:
What is a tack piano? Is it another name for a honky-tonk piano, or possible a toy piano?

Subject: Re: Tack Piano
From: Granholm Bros
To: John Giotto
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 19:01:14 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
What is a tack piano? Is it another name for a honky-tonk piano, or possible a toy piano?
---
My guess is that the term refers to shoving thumbtacks into the hammers to produce a metallic honky tonk sound, thereby pretty much wrecking a set of hammers in the process. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Tack Piano
From: John Giotto
To: Granholm Bros
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 23:13:38 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
What is a tack piano? Is it another name for a honky-tonk piano, or possible a toy piano?
---
My guess is that the term refers to shoving thumbtacks into the hammers to produce a metallic honky tonk sound, thereby pretty much wrecking a set of hammers in the process. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR
---
John: Thanks for the reply, that sounds right. I'm looking to replicate that sound for a recording; don't worry, I won't wreck a good piano. Noble & Cooley makes a pretty cool wooden toy piano that strikes metal bars, I'm going to give it a try.

Subject: keys sticking
From: Jonathan
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:03:50 (EDT)
Email Address: djmccann@sprint.ca

Message:
What do I do if the keys stick?

Subject: Re: keys sticking
From: Niles Duncan
To: Jonathan
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:58:05 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
What do I do if the keys stick?
---
Call your piano technician.

Subject: Two Questions
From: Brian Holden
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 03:48:57 (EDT)
Email Address: bholden@wave.co.nz

Message:
Apparently there are three methods for measuring down-bearing. I know that one way is to use a gauge with three prongs (e.g. Baldwin acu-just) or other gauges that are similar. What are the other two methods? Secondly I'd like comments on what the correct procedure is, for lowering string tension in preparation for restringing. Brian Holden, piano tuner.

Subject: Re: Two Questions
From: Niles Duncan
To: Brian Holden
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:46:53 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
There is the 3 prong device such as you mention which is used together with a feeler gauge to measure bearing. There are also 3 prong devices that are attached to a dial indicator so that the bearing can be read out directly on the dial. One has to realize in using these devices that they are giving only an approximate bearing because they do not take into account the width of the top of the bridge, however they do give useful information. A third type of tool is what is called a component bearing gauge which uses a small bubble level and can be placed on the front or the rear section of the string in order to measure front and rear bearing individually. When I am taking a piano apart for restringing I measure the bearing in a number of spots across the scale. I take measurements first with the piano under tension keeping track of the strings where I have taken my bearing measurements. After I let down the tension on the entire piano I go back, tighten the strings where I previously measured the bearing and take another measurement giving me the bearing with the soundboard no longer under load. The difference between the two measurements gives me some idea of how much the soundboard is flexing, and is useful for assessing the condition of the soundboard and for setting bearing when reassembling the piano if I decide that I want to change the downbearing. I don't think that knowing only the bearing when the piano is under tension is very useful by itself. When I let the tension down I do it in a manner that does not suddenly release all the tension in any one area. If you consider the way that the tuning pins are staggered on most pianos they can be looked at as six rows of pins. What I do is to work across each of the six rows from treble to bass letting down the tension of one row at a time. This amounts to relaxing one string of each alternate unison on each pass right to left across the piano. I generally give the pin one counterclockwise turn. In the tenor and bass where you no longer have the 'six rows' situation I choose appropriate pins skipping others so that I am not relieving all the tension in any area all at once. After the pins are loosened I use my micrometer to measure the scale if it is not a piano that is documented. I then cut all of the strings just to the rear of the agraffes or capo bar and clear out all the loose wire. I don't bother removing the coils and string ends from the tuning pins. With a tuning pin socket on a reversible electric drill I remove the tuning pins with the coils and the remaining ends of the strings attached. After having done this quite a number of times, if I am working on a piano with a documented scale so that I don't have to take a bass string pattern and determine the scale with a micrometer, I can have a piano unstrung in no more than two hours.

Subject: buzze sound from new piano
From: Alan
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:25:03 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Recently bought a new piano, like the sound of it. However, few days of the deliverly, it developed some buzze sound in couple of the notes. Have technician came in a few times, can not pin point the exact cause. The annoying buzze sound comes and gone. For a few weeks it completely gone. Now came back again. Any idea?

Subject: advice please...
From: long
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:26:56 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'm interesting in getting a piano for my 5 years old daughter. She is just starting to take the piano lession. I'm not sure to get a entry level YAMAHA E108 ($cdn 4200) or PETROF 115 IIP ($cdn 5600). Which one should I buy ? (My budget is under $cdn 6000.) And I am told that PETROF's wood is not used to Canada's (TORONTO) winter time. Is it true ? Thanks in advance for your advice.

Subject: Re: advice please...
From: Andrew
To: long
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:02:03 (EDT)
Email Address: Andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
A Mason & Hamlin console ad has just been listed in the Piano Exchange board on this WEB site. That could be a piano of your consideration. Of course, if you're only interested in new ones. . . Andrew

Subject: Silca pacs in piano
From: Roger
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 01:39:56 (EDT)
Email Address: rhaferkamp@earthlink.net

Message:
I just purchased an upright piano and found 2 or 3 silca gel pacs in lower portion. Should I remove them? It has been quite dry lately.

Subject: Re: Silca pacs in piano
From: Brian Holden
To: Roger
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:03:23 (EDT)
Email Address: bholden@wave.co.nz

Message:
Leave them there. They will do the piano no harm when the air is dry, and will help to absorb moisture when the air is humid. They are a not the full answer by any means, but will certainly be better than nothing at all. One could write volumes on the subject of humidity in pianos. Brian

Subject: Italian Piano
From: Steve Blevins
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:49:34 (EDT)
Email Address: bleudog@flash.net

Message:
I have heard that one of the world's best pianos is made in Italy and begins with the letters 'Faz...' Does anyone know the full name of this piano make? Thank you. Steve

Subject: Re: Italian Piano
From: Andrew
To: Steve Blevins
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:56:49 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Fazioli. Very expensive. Quite a few world class pianists used these pianos on their concert tour including Steinway artists Ashkenazy, Berman, Tozer, Brendel, etc. Their have the largest concert grand in the world. Andrew

Subject: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Tom Butts
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 19:40:13 (EDT)
Email Address: tebutts@ibm.net

Message:
I am considering buying a Young Chang Pramberger Series 5 ft grand. It seems to have many of the technical innovations of the Yamaha along with theclassic attributes of the Steinway (from Pramberger's influence), and all at a very reasonable price. Any thoughts?

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Kim
To: Tom Butts
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:44:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Tom, I also am considering purchasing a Young Chang Pramberger Series. I was looking at the 5'2' model. Would you mind disclosing the price, I'd be interested in how close the prices are. This piano was the polished white with the Piano Disc w/symphony. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Tom
To: Kim
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:51:06 (EDT)
Email Address: n/a

Message:
Kim, We were told that the 5ft was a new piano that was completely designed by Pramberger, and that the 5'2' was an old model that he had made a few modifications on. Two different dealers told me that they would rather see me buy the 5ft over the 5'2' because it was a superior piano. They told me that if I wanted to go larger that they would recommend the 5'9' or 6'0' (preferably 6'0'). I don't know how true it is ,but they had both available so there didn't seem to be a reason not to believe them. The model we were looking at was polished mahogony and didn't have the piano disc, so the price won't help you.

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Kim
To: Tom
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:49:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Tom, Thanks for your reply, this really helps me a lot! I'm leaning more and more towards the 5' Pramberger. Kim

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Robert J.
To: Tom Butts
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 17:50:33 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I purchased a Young-Chang Pramberger Series PG-150 in July of this year. I am really enjoying it and have no complaints. However, I have just recently started playing piano again after 15 years without a piano so I am no expert. I bought this piano based on the quality of the sound in the store as compared to other pianos in that price range (I especially thought it sounded better than the Yamahas) and of course the sales pitch I was given. In retrospect I wish I had been a frequent visitor of this piano forum before I had purchased the piano. The advice given here I have found to be very useful and informative. Listen to what the others have to say and buy The Piano Book by Larry Fine. Good luck and let us know what you end up buying.

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Mat D.
To: Tom Butts
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 21:03:56 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
They are pretty nice instruments, but Unless you absolutely stuck on a 5' grand, I would consider something larger such as 6'--this is a much better size--pianos don't even get serious untill they're 6' or more. Also don't get too carried away with the marketing because, as much as the Pramberger is quite a nice instrument for the money, it is not a Steinway by any means; I do like them more than some of the Yamaha's I've played though. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: Andrew
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 09:33:17 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
I fully agree with Mat on the size of grands. If any one is considering attaining a grand try at least at a size of 5'7' or 5'8'. That should be the minimum size of consideration. Larry Fine advocates a minimum size of 6'. I'm well aware of the price issue. You will be quite surprised at what a few inches of difference will bring to the sound and tone. Buying a grand piano is like buying a house. You always try to stretch a tinny bit beyond your financial capability. A few years down the road you'll be happy that you did. Piano is not a car that people normally change or 'upgrade' every few years. Try to make a good and sound decision the first time around. The lasting result will be rewarding. Andrew

Subject: Re: Young Chang Pramberger
From: ryan
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 10:49:18 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
The Young Chang Pramberger looks great on paper, and are actually built quite well with some nice touches. I feel that they are a step above the G model (did I get that right??). However, as Mat said, they are definately not Steinway. In pianos, as with anything else, you really don't get something for nothing. I was very excited to try a Pramberger when I heard about them and heard the hype, but when I actually sat down to play some, I was very disappointed. I think I expected them to be a Steinway or almost as good, so the real thing was quite a let down. I have actually found a number of uprights that are in the same price range as the Pramberger (or less) that I would buy first because I think they have a much nicer tone and a slightly better action.

Subject: repairing finishings
From: Pat
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 21:17:42 (EDT)
Email Address: pikryklywyj@kermode.net

Message:
I have a Kroeger piano circa 1898 and it has some damage to the side. I would like to refinish it, however I don't know if that is wise. Also I need a new wheel for the back of it, any ideas where I might find one? Thanks

Subject: Re: repairing finishings
From: Granholm Bros
To: Pat
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:47:10 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I have a Kroeger piano circa 1898 and it has some damage to the side. I would like to refinish it, however I don't know if that is wise. Also I need a new wheel for the back of it, any ideas where I might find one? Thanks
---
Call a piano technician to replace the casters, but replace them all with a new set. Modern piano casters are much better than the old metal ones, and they won't damage your floors. Refinishing will do nothing to affect the tone or playability of your piano, it'll just make it look better if it's done right. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: piano playing
From: Ed GArdynik
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:20:37 (EDT)
Email Address: splatter66@prodigy.net

Message:
I want to learn to play the piano, I have a 40 key casio electronic keyboard right now , ive had it for about 3 years and its just been sitting here getting dusty. Now i have the desire to play it . I ve been playing guitar for about 5 years and know about chords and scales. What i really want i suppose is can anyone send my an easy song to play say like row row your boat or something. i dont know how to read the music thoughk. any hints on this subject would also be appreciated thank you

Subject: Re: piano playing
From: Steve Mc
To: Ed GArdynik
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:10:45 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
PianoWorld has a link to download free sheet music, try going to http://www.pianoworld.com/freepianomusic.htm and see what you can find. Try going to your local library and looking for books on 'how to play the piano'. Good Luck

Subject: Wurtlizer
From: Dave B
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 14:31:25 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I recently upgraded and traded in my used Baldwin spinet for a new Wurtlizer console piano. I had played the on the spinet for the last five years since I started as an adult piano student. The spinet served me well but I recovered a substantial trade-in for the spinet and the Wurtilizer was on sale for $2300. Net outlay was approximately $1400. The tone and quality of the Wurtlizer is far superior to the Baldwin spinet. However, I understand the Wurtlizer might require tuning more frequently due to the fact that the back posts are not part of the design. If this does indeed become a problem, I will probably upgrade again within a few years. Comments????

Subject: Re: Wurtlizer
From: Dave B
To: Dave B
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:44:29 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Granholm Bros Piano, Thanks for the reply and I will have the piano tuned 3-4 times the first year. So far to date, it is a beautiful piano in both sound and appearance especially over the used Baldwin spinet. It is amazing how both you and your piano tend to adapt to each other.

Subject: Re: Wurtlizer
From: dave B
To: Dave B
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:39:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:

Subject: Re: Wurtlizer
From: Granholm Bros
To: Dave B
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:21:03 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I recently upgraded and traded in my used Baldwin spinet for a new Wurtlizer console piano. I had played the on the spinet for the last five years since I started as an adult piano student. The spinet served me well but I recovered a substantial trade-in for the spinet and the Wurtilizer was on sale for $2300. Net outlay was approximately $1400. The tone and quality of the Wurtlizer is far superior to the Baldwin spinet. However, I understand the Wurtlizer might require tuning more frequently due to the fact that the back posts are not part of the design. If this does indeed become a problem, I will probably upgrade again within a few years. Comments????
---
I doubt that backpost design will be much of a factor in this piano's tuning stability. More important will be its environment, temperature and humidity in particular, and its maintenance schedule. If you have it tuned 3-4 times in its first year to stabilize the pitch, and then twice a year thereafter, you should have no problems. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Yamaha T116
From: CC
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:57:33 (EDT)
Email Address: ccwi@aol.com

Message:
I am planning on purchasing a piano soon, and have read Larry Fine's book, which was a big help. I really admired the Yamaha U1, but for budget reasons, think I need to stick to a studio. I am considering Yamaha's T116, but have not found a whole lot of information on that particular model. If anyone has any comments on it, I would be very grateful. Thanks.

Subject: Re: Yamaha T116
From: Rick
To: CC
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 10:08:02 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I just bought a Yamaha T121 for $4500. It's a new 48' model, just released last February. Here's the story on it: Yamaha discontinued the WX1, and then remodeled the U1 to be like the WX1 on the inside. Then they took the old U1 and turned it into the T121, just with less expensive cabinetry (no slo-close fallboard and no hinged top). The cabinet is made in Taiwan, then shipped to Japan where the piano is finished. The piano sounds beautiful, and looks beautiful, too. I just love it - best purchase for the value that I could find. I recommend looking at one!

Subject: Yamaha T121
From: Becky
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 12:24:21 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
This weekend, a found a new Yamaha T121. The salesperson said that it is the same piano as a U1, just with less expensive cabinetry. It is 48 inches tall, and I think it sounds great. The price is $4500. Is the T121 really the same on the inside as a U1? Is this a good price for a T121? Any information is greatly appreciated!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T121
From: Rob S.
To: Becky
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 13:01:12 (EDT)
Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com

Message:
Is the T121 a new model? My copy of Larry Fine's Piano Book and supplement don't have it listed. It's possible that the T121 is a big brother of the T116 which is a 45' upright. If so, it probably means that it was manufactured in the USA, as is the T116. The U series pianos are made in Japan, and this upright may be as well, but the T designation probably stands for their factory in Thomaston (Georgia). Fine wrote, 'The U.S. made instruments were satisfactory, but not nearly as good as those from Japan'. Finding the country of origin should be easy, if it's Japanese it will say 'Made in Japan' under the embossed Yamaha logo at the top center of the plate. Some posters to this forum have said they purchased U1's for $4500. I purchased mine for $5500 in New York City. I'd suggest you price the T121 and U1 at other dealers. A side note: should you buy a Yamaha, make sure the 'Service Bond' is part of the deal. It should include two in home tunings and an inspection. This is Yamaha's stated aftermarket policy, but it's actually discretionary from dealer to dealer. With some dealers, you won't get it unless you insist on it. That's experience talking. Good luck!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T121
From: Elizabeth
To: Rob S.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 21:42:48 (EDT)
Email Address: poetique@yahoo.com

Message:
Becky From what I have read, the T121 is made in Georgia USA, and the U1 is made in Japan. From all the information that I have gathered, the U1 is superior to the T121. I am glad that you are skeptical. If you feel that your salesperson is slick...he probably is!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T121
From: Becky
To: Rob S.
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 13:56:36 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thank you for the information - it's very helpful. Yes, the T121 is a new model, released within the last year (according to the salesman, who I'm not sure I trust). He said that Yamaha discontinued a WX3 (not sure about this model number, but it did begin with a W), but they didn't want to do away with it, so they upgraded the U1 to be the same inside as the old WX3. Then they took the original U1 and turned it into the T121. He said that is why the T121 was made, and was adamant that if I bought the T121 I would be getting the same exact piano as a U1, just with a different cabinet (no slow-release fall board and no hinged top). This story may be true, or it may have been made up to get a naive women who obviously doesn't know too much to buy a tall T116 and think she is getting a deal! Sounds kind of hokey to me, but I'm somewhat skeptical of all salesmen! I did call another dealer and was quoted a price of $6000 for the T121. Sounds inflated to me. It's somewhat confusing, since I haven't been able to find out much about the T121. The offer comes with free delivery and three follow-up tune-ups. Thanks again!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T121
From: Rob S.
To: Becky
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 14:22:58 (EDT)
Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com

Message:
It's not bad being a skeptic when buying a piano. Yamaha did discontinue thw WX1 48' and WX7 52' models. Fine stated that, '...the 48' model U1 has been redesigned to contain the scale design and some of the features of the WX1'. As you probably know one sure way to identify an 'updated' U1 is the 'Slo-close fallboard'. Your salesman is saying is the new T121 is the same as the OLD U1, which may be true, but not the same as the current U1. Have you priced the U1 as well as the T121? Have you played them both? Have you looked at other brands? It sounds as if you feel the salesman has picked the T121 for you, and is now applying pressure to close the sale. Try redefining the conversation. Tell him you're no longer interested in the T121, and want to see what else he has in your price range. You can get info at Yamaha's web site, or give them a call at 1-800-854-1569. Continued good luck.

Subject: Re: Yamaha T121
From: Murray
To: Becky
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 11:25:31 (EDT)
Email Address: mlphill@mb.sympatico.ca

Message:
Hi Becky There is a little more info on the T121 in Larry Fines 1999 update. You can find the section where he gives an overview on the various manufacturers at www.tiac.net/users/pianobk/update.html. You might also try the Yamaha web site that you can link to through this site. You sound like you are at the same stage we were in the spring when we started looking for a piano. My only advice is to find out as much as you can(this forum is a wealth of knowledge), try as many pianos as you can, and take your time(don't get pushed along by some of the sales tactics out there). Good luck in your search!

Subject: Re: Yamaha T121
From: CC
To: Murray
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 20, 1999 at 23:01:47 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have Larry Fine's 1999-2000 Annual Supplement to the Piano Book. Regarding the T121, Larry says 'A new 48' model T121 supplements the model U1, and is similar to the U1 inside, but with a less expensive cabinet made in Taiwan and sent to Japan for final assembly.'

Subject: Piano Purchase
From: Steve M
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 12:06:10 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'm about to purchase an old Emerson Upright. Any thing to look out for or to check? I plan on paying around $100, so I'm not expecting much. I'm just looking for a piano to play with my 7 month old son for fun. Typically, how much does an upright weigh? I'm going to try to move it with a few friends, I don't want to pay more for the move than the piano.

Subject: Re: Piano Purchase
From: John D.
To: Steve M
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 19:13:47 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'm about to purchase an old Emerson Upright. Any thing to look out for or to check? I plan on paying around $100, so I'm not expecting much. I'm just looking for a piano to play with my 7 month old son for fun. Typically, how much does an upright weigh? I'm going to try to move it with a few friends, I don't want to pay more for the move than the piano.
---
Steve, I copied what's below from the page in this website that lists piano movers. It answers most of your questions but also states what you probably don't want to hear - hire a professional to move it. Movers like to tell stories like this one: A young woman asked her father to help her move a piano from one place to another in her house. Her father got a couple of his friends to come along and they brought a dolly. While they were lifting the piano - a full-size vertical -- it tipped back too far and got away from them. While it was falling, its upper corner dug down through the wall. The trench it made was deep enough to sever an electric conduit, which shorted and began to burn. The 'movers' were unable to stop the fire, which also spread to the floor below, another person's apartment. After the fire department was done, there was little left of the two apartments .... and the piano. Obviously, this is an extreme example of the damage that can be inflicted when moving a piano in do-it-yourself fashion. But even if you don't burn down your house, there is a substantial risk of personal injury, not to mention damage to the piano. Pianos are very heavy. The average spinet or console weighs in at from three hundred to five hundred pounds, full-size uprights at about seven hundred, but sometimes as much a thousand. Grands vary from about five hundred to a thousand pounds, though a concert grand may weigh as much as thirteen hundred pounds! If it were simply a matter of weight, though, all it would take would be enough strong people to do the job. Unfortunately, along with the weight come problems of balance and inertia, knowledge of which can make all the difference in doing a moving job safely and efficiently. Piano moving may conjure up images of men with monstrous arms and huge torsos, but actually two or three people of average build can do most piano moving jobs - even grands if they have some brains, experience, the right equipment, and a knowledge of just when and where to apply a little force. Good luck, John D.

Subject: Re: Piano Purchase
From: Granholm Bros
To: John D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 19, 1999 at 20:42:04 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I'm about to purchase an old Emerson Upright. Any thing to look out for or to check? I plan on paying around $100, so I'm not expecting much. I'm just looking for a piano to play with my 7 month old son for fun. Typically, how much does an upright weigh? I'm going to try to move it with a few friends, I don't want to pay more for the move than the piano.
---
Steve, I copied what's below from the page in this website that lists piano movers. It answers most of your questions but also states what you probably don't want to hear - hire a professional to move it. Movers like to tell stories like this one: A young woman asked her father to help her move a piano from one place to another in her house. Her father got a couple of his friends to come along and they brought a dolly. While they were lifting the piano - a full-size vertical -- it tipped back too far and got away from them. While it was falling, its upper corner dug down through the wall. The trench it made was deep enough to sever an electric conduit, which shorted and began to burn. The 'movers' were unable to stop the fire, which also spread to the floor below, another person's apartment. After the fire department was done, there was little left of the two apartments .... and the piano. Obviously, this is an extreme example of the damage that can be inflicted when moving a piano in do-it-yourself fashion. But even if you don't burn down your house, there is a substantial risk of personal injury, not to mention damage to the piano. Pianos are very heavy. The average spinet or console weighs in at from three hundred to five hundred pounds, full-size uprights at about seven hundred, but sometimes as much a thousand. Grands vary from about five hundred to a thousand pounds, though a concert grand may weigh as much as thirteen hundred pounds! If it were simply a matter of weight, though, all it would take would be enough strong people to do the job. Unfortunately, along with the weight come problems of balance and inertia, knowledge of which can make all the difference in doing a moving job safely and efficiently. Piano moving may conjure up images of men with monstrous arms and huge torsos, but actually two or three people of average build can do most piano moving jobs - even grands if they have some brains, experience, the right equipment, and a knowledge of just when and where to apply a little force. Good luck, John D.
---
Have you had anyone look at this piano, such as a piano technician? Is it worth even $100 and the effort it will take to move it? I'd sure find out if I were you. I very strongly second John's suggestion about not moving the piano yourself, and I'll back it up with two true stories that happened in our business within the last two weeks: Got a call the other day from a man who wanted an estimate on repairing a piano. When I asked what was wrong, he said he and some friends were moving the piano in a pickup, and as they went around a corner the piano flew out of the truck and down onto the street. Luckily, it killed no one, but an entire side of the piano was knocked off, and he wanted to know if we could put it back on somehow. I refused to look at it and recommended he pick the pieces out of the street and haul them to the dump. On a more serious note, a helper in our shop was stripping an upright two weeks ago. He was pushing the piano, and just as John related, it got away from him going over backwards. Big uprights have high centers of gravity and tip over easily with a surprisingly light push from the front. Our helper ignored his training ('Rule #1: If a piano gets away from you, get out of its way and let it go--you're not going to stop it, and no piano is worth any part of your body'), and got behind the piano to put it back on its wheels. He slipped in the stripper, fell, and the piano came down on him, shattering his leg below the knee. He's lucky he wasn't killed, and he's supposedly a professional. I'll never recommend to anyone again that they move their own piano. It's very dangerous. Leave it to the pros. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii
From: Mich
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 15:11:32 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
My husband and I are looking into buying a new studio upright piano. We are considering a Charles Walter, a (Hamilton) Baldwin or a 46' Kawaii. We like them all for different reasons. If any one can shed any light on why we should purchase one (or not purchase one) over the other, we would greatly appreciate it. Also, can anyone give us a good idea about what a fair price would be for any of these. Thanks!

Subject: Re: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii
From: Mat D.
To: Mich
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 23:24:24 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Mich, Charles Walter makes some excellent grand pianos, but I am not quite as impressed w/their uprights (this is just my experience). Charles Walter cabinetry is top notch w/hand rubbed finishes etc. I can't speak for the Baldwin, but Kawai makes a very fine 46' upright that I am very familiar with (I wish I knew model #). My church has a 46' Kawai and in my opinion, it's hard to do better than this piano in anywhere near the price range; the tone is warm, action is fine & it stays in tune very well! Good luck, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii
From: ryan
To: Mich
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 11:04:11 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I have played very few Kawaii uprights but none of their studios and none of the new Baldwins. I did not like the Kawaii upright that I played, but it might have been better with better voicing. I have played a Charles Walter studio in the last couple of weeks, however, and loved it. I loved the tone, the balance, and the feel of the grand-sized keys. However, it was in a shop that does a lot of work to their pianos to bring out the best in them, so I am sure that it had benefitted from hours of voicing. The action in the CW did fall behind when I tried to play some really fast pieces like the Chopin Etudes, but it was fine otherwise.

Subject: Re: Charles Walter vs. Baldwin vs. Kawaii
From: Bruce
To: Mich
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 21:09:46 (EDT)
Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com

Message:
Have you tried the Yamaha U1?....lot of techs agree this is one heck of a piano! Bruce

Subject: What to use to clean my piano
From: Christi
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 18:31:37 (EDT)
Email Address: bgcandclc

Message:
We just purchased a 22 year old Steinway with a black satin finish. The previous owners smoked. We had the keys cleaned by a technician (they were yellow from cigarette smoke) and the technician said I could use Murphy's Oil Soap to clean the exterior surface. I know that if the keys were yellow from smoke, no telling what layer of scum is on the piano. I want to make sure this is safe to use before I do it. If it isn't, what could I use instead?

Subject: Re: What to use to clean my piano
From: sam lewis piano
To: Christi
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:35:39 (EDT)
Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com

Message:
Christi:Murphy's Oil can damage a finish that is already weak, so be careful. We deal with a lot of older pianos and furniture, and have had several come to us after the owners cleaned with Murphy's, and it stripped the finish! So, if you are seeing signs of the finish cracking or crazing, I would not try Murphy's. Play it safe if you do, and dilute it. Steel wool (0000) and mineral spirits will work, and if the finish is healthy, regular soap and water will too. Just use caution because any cracking of the finish will allow whatever you are applying to it to get under the finish and further destroy it.

Subject: Re: What to use to clean my piano
From: Granholm Bros
To: Christi
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 21:32:32 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
We just purchased a 22 year old Steinway with a black satin finish. The previous owners smoked. We had the keys cleaned by a technician (they were yellow from cigarette smoke) and the technician said I could use Murphy's Oil Soap to clean the exterior surface. I know that if the keys were yellow from smoke, no telling what layer of scum is on the piano. I want to make sure this is safe to use before I do it. If it isn't, what could I use instead?
---
I don't think the Murphy's would hurt anything. You might also try a product called Cabinet Magic, which comes in an aerosol can and is available at hardware stores. We used it, plus gentle application of #0000 steel wool, to clean years of grime and paste wax off a cherry grand piano case. Took about four hours of hard work. Be careful, though, not to rub through the finish, especially at corners. Once you have the ebonized finish clean, don't put wax or polish on it. Just clean it with a damp cloth or chamois. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: What to use to clean my piano
From: Christi
To: Granholm Bros
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 09:49:06 (EDT)
Email Address: bgcandclc@aol.com

Message:
We just purchased a 22 year old Steinway with a black satin finish. The previous owners smoked. We had the keys cleaned by a technician (they were yellow from cigarette smoke) and the technician said I could use Murphy's Oil Soap to clean the exterior surface. I know that if the keys were yellow from smoke, no telling what layer of scum is on the piano. I want to make sure this is safe to use before I do it. If it isn't, what could I use instead?
---
I don't think the Murphy's would hurt anything. You might also try a product called Cabinet Magic, which comes in an aerosol can and is available at hardware stores. We used it, plus gentle application of #0000 steel wool, to clean years of grime and paste wax off a cherry grand piano case. Took about four hours of hard work. Be careful, though, not to rub through the finish, especially at corners. Once you have the ebonized finish clean, don't put wax or polish on it. Just clean it with a damp cloth or chamois. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR
---
Both replies to my question said to use (0000) steel wool, that just terrifies me. Is this a very fine steel wool or something? The finish is perfect, no cracks etc... I planned on using a diluted solution of Murphys Oil Soap. I suppose I could try it first then try the other ideas if it does not clean it enough. The finish is very dull, so I know there is a layer of cigarette smoke on it. What is this steel wool you talked about?

Subject: Re: What to use to clean my piano
From: Granholm Bros
To: Christi
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 21:05:13 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I'll defer to Mr. Lewis's comments about Murphy's, and agree with him strongly about not letting anything get under the piano's finish. It makes nightmares for refinishers. As far as I know, #0000 steel wool is the finest grade you can get--that's in abrasive strength, not quality. It's used by finishers and refinishers to produce a satin finish, and your Steinway was probably rubbed out with it at the factory as the last step in the finishing process. Remember that steel wool is an abrasive, and it will produce very fine rub marks (scratches) in the piano's finish, so rub very lightly in the direction the grain of the wood would go if you could see grain on your piano. The ebonized finish (actually black lacquer) originally contained the same tiny scratches. It's part of the 'look' of the piano, and a sign that the finish was rubbed out by hand. I'd suggest you start out with a small patch of finish in a relatively concealed area, like the top of the kneeboard, and experiment until you get the results you want. Take the kneeboard off and lay it down on a table or workbench so you can get to it easier and get a better look at your results. Hope this helps. John Granholm

Subject: Why Ebony Finish
From: John Mason
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 12:24:24 (EDT)
Email Address: jomason@cba.ua.edu

Message:
It appears that most grand pianos today have a r polished or satin ebony finish. However, as I browse through the ads of pianos for sale on the Piano Exchange, I notice that many of the 25 to 100 year-old pianos have various wood stain finishes, such as walnut, mahogany, cherry, rosewood. Moreover, as I look at photos of older, wood-stained, grand pianos on various web sites, it seems to me that these wood-stain finishes are very beautiful. Can anyone explain the reason(s) for the change in piano finishes between yesteryear and today. Thanks. John Mason John Mason

Subject: Re: Why Ebony Finish
From: Sam Lewis Piano
To: John Mason
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 00:43:46 (EDT)
Email Address: sammenjean@aol.com

Message:
John- the piano industry, as with all industry, is consumer driven. Many people prefer an ebony grand; as one of my clients said this week, 'grand pianos should look elegant, and ebony is the ONLY color for a grand'. I think a lot of people feel that way, although the vast majority of my clients go with natural wood with a satin finish. As to the high polish, that is a polyester finish, and although we dont do those in our shop (we do high polish lacquer if requested), my guess is that it must be cheaper to apply, as it is showing up on virtually every piano make, from the very cheapest junk to the high end. This is just a guess however. A good lacquer finish, whether high or low gloss, has to be hand rubbed for the best effect, and that is labor intensive. Hope this has helped. Sam

Subject: Re: Why Ebony Finish
From: Charlie
To: Sam Lewis Piano
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 18:08:29 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
'Customer driven' only goes so far to explain things. Sometimes customers don't have a choice, and take what they can get. This is a pet peeve of mine. I've seen several very good products that I like withdrawn from the market. The suppliers say 'no demand' and I say 'not available so it is impossible for the demand to be generated.' I bought a black polyester finished Rieger-Kloss grand though this is far from my first choice in finish. Just happens it was the only finish available on this piano. My preferences are: 1st: clear lacquer over stained wood; 2nd: black satin lacquer--this is really a very elegant appearance 3rd: (and a far distant 3rd) polyester black 4th: polyester over stained wood 5: colored polyester other than black (white, red, whatever) and I think these are unacceptable. For good information on wood finishes, see Understanding Wood Finishes by Bob Flexner. An excellent treatise. The only finish that has proven the test of time is shellac. It has its drawbacks, but many good advantages. Lacquer, for me, is a wonderful finish when it is well done. It can also be poorly done, but like shellac it is an extremely repairable finish with good clarity. Polyester may be cheaper to apply but perhaps not (I don't know) but it is an extremely durable finish, which may be why the manufacturer's use it--it avoids damage in shipment. It looks like plastic poured on the wood to me and not very attractive. In black it is an OK appearance to me. Otherwise I find it offensive.

Subject: Re: Why Ebony Finish
From: Charlie
To: John Mason
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 17:40:14 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
It appears that most grand pianos today have a r polished or satin ebony finish. However, as I browse through the ads of pianos for sale on the Piano Exchange, I notice that many of the 25 to 100 year-old pianos have various wood stain finishes, such as walnut, mahogany, cherry, rosewood. Moreover, as I look at photos of older, wood-stained, grand pianos on various web sites, it seems to me that these wood-stain finishes are very beautiful. Can anyone explain the reason(s) for the change in piano finishes between yesteryear and today. Thanks. John Mason John Mason
---
1. People today do not ask for finely finished wood, probably because so few of us ever see it. Modern furniture has garbage for a finish. Even today many of the wood finished pianos have the ultra-high gloss polyester finish, which I dislike. 2. I don't know how or why ebony became the standard finish for pianos. Perhaps to give the instrument a striking appearance on stage, 3. A lot of the older instruments for homes were given lavish treatment since they would have been the showpiece of the home. I agree that it would be great if good looking wood finishes came back. Charlie

Subject: Re: Why Ebony Finish
From: Mat D.
To: John Mason
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 15:28:24 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
John, I think larger grands (7' & up) have traditionally been ebony and I suspect that most of the pinos you are seeing on the piano exchange are smaller than that. Today many pianos are ebony I suppose to give the illusion of a concert (more serious) instrument for the home
---
this has become pretty much the standard, however wood vaneers are coming back as all good things do; now, I wish they would start putting those softer hammers in these new pianos, then we'd have something to applaud. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Why Ebony Finish
From: D. MacDuff
To: John Mason
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 14:40:03 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I read once that ebony-finished pianos are actually veneered with mahogony, but it is mis-matched mahogony. The ones with a red mahogany finish must be matched carefully with wood from the same tree, so this is expensive.

Subject: Young Chang piano
From: Donna
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 18, 1999 at 15:00:10 (EDT)
Email Address: daveyk@cadvision.com

Message:
I am in the process of purchasing a piano and am considering a new Young Chang studio upright. Any comments would be appreciated.

Subject: Recording a piano
From: John D.
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 13:41:39 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'm trying to make a decent recording of my piano. 'Decent' meaning minimum tape hiss and a fairly accurate reproduction of the tonal quality of the piano. The piano is in a room with hardwood floors and 8' ceilings. It's a 7'4' grand and can't be moved (not easily anyway). Audiophiles will shudder at my equipment, an Onkyo tape deck. But since it makes excellent recordings off my CD player, I tried making a recording via the two mike jacks on front of the tape deck. No matter what I tried, the tape-hiss was horrible. I am using TDK chromium oxide tape. I also tried repositioning the mikes everywhere I could think of, but to no avail. I believe the problem is either with the microphones I am using and/or the wires from the mikes to the deck. Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks, John D.

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: Mat D.
To: John D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 15:34:54 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
John, I make my living as a music producer & have my own recording facility with state-of the art digital & analog equipment so I might be able to help, but I need to know what microphones you are using etc. I suspect the problem is in your pre-amp (you are probably not using an external pre-amp for your mikes. You are probably going right into the recording deck inputs--correct? By tape deck, do you mean reel to reel or cassette? First of all, you need a decent pre-amp (a two channel unit which will allow you to bypass the mike inputs of the deck) so you can go into the line input of deck. You also might be trying to put your mikes too far back. try recording with the mikes at the edge of the lid with treble mike pointing down at the first hole in the plate and bass mike point toward middle of soundboard. please write back about your mikes etc.

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: Hakki
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 16:07:37 (EDT)
Email Address: bbayka@superonline.com

Message:
Mat D., I am also very interested in recording my piano and I am very excited to find such a topic in this forum. I had been looking for such an information around the internet for some time, but I love piano and love to play romantic music (Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninov etc.)and there is not much information on piano recording. At the moment I don't have a mixer and neither microphones. But I was planning to buy a Behringer 602 or 802 and a couple of Shure BG 4.1s and use my computer for recording. Do you think I can get satisfactory results (for burning CDs at home and giving to friends) with such equipment? Especially the BG 4.1s. Are they good for recording a grand piano? Looking forward for your very valuable comments. Thank you in advance. Hakki.

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: Mat D.
To: Hakki
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 23:25:07 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Hakki, I am not intimately familiar with the Shure BG4.1 mic, but I do know they are an excellent condenser (vocal) mic. I would recommend you also look at the Crown CM-700 condenser mic--they are even less money ($289 retail) and I know they are excellent for piano. If however you are also going to be doing vocal recording, you might be better off with the Shure as it is a vocal mic. The Crown CM-700 will do a nice job on vocals but is best suited to acoustic intruments, the piano being the ultimate such instrument. The Behringer mixer would work fine but again, you might look at the Mackie MS1202-VLZ which IMO is better built and has become someshat of a standard (very much copied by Behringer). You might take the money you save on the Crown CM-700 mics & upgrade your mixer. There are also lots of nice digital mixers out there--Roland makes some very nice small digitals & Tascam makes one for under $1,000. The advantage here is that they have effects built in & also compression & limiting in some cases. I personally use the Yamaha 02/R which has become the standard for pro use and is fabulous
---
definately overkill for your purposes. BTW mic positioning and signal level is absolutely crucial in your endeavor. It is a bit of a challenge, but without decent equipment, you'll never get there. Also recording to your computer is fine--sound card quality dependant of course. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: Hakki
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 11:23:07 (EDT)
Email Address: bbayka@superonline.com

Message:
Mat, thank you very much for your reply. Now I understand how helpfull can be a pro's advice. I have no experience in recording and all I know is what I am trying to learn form "home recording" sites and manufacturer sites. I had seen the BG4.1 on Shure's web site as being proposed for piano recording in their mic selection guide page(as well as ensemble vocal recording) among their other and more expensive models (for piano recording also) KMS32 and SM81. Also I found on the internet a few sites offering BG4.1 (new) at a retail price of about 160 $ when ordered online (list 275 $). So I thought it could be a good buy. Since I am not planning to record any vocal at all, (only solo classical piano music)after your advice BG4.1 dropped from my list. I have a few more questions. My sound card is a SB Live Value. Is it good for my purposes? Could you please give examples of decent equipment and mic placing that you mention in your message (I am on a budget, but just to have an idea what is the best compromise for computer based recording with my sound card for amateur purposes)? Thank you in advance. Hakki

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: Mat D.
To: Hakki
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 18:24:24 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Hakki, It would be alright IMO to start with the Soundblaster sound card (it is pretty much the standard of the 'lower-end'). There are so many sound cards available I can't even begin to advise you here. The best place to look would be to read some of the projest studio & home recoring magazines--they have lots of reviews etc. One thing is for sure, eventually (if you get serious about this) you will want a sound card w/digital in & out as well as high bit rate analog I/O's. The digital I/O will only help you though if you have a digital device to play to & from (MD or DAT etc). As for mic placement, I would start with a standard X/Y cofiguration, which is both mike on one stand (use a T bar so you can mount both mics on 1 stand) and then put the mics at 90 degree angle with the heads one on top of the other (at 90 degrees). example: if you held one mic in each hand and put the heads of the mics together at 90 degree angle--the right mic is pointing left, and the left mic is pointing right. With this configuration, you will have the least potential for phase distortion which occurs when a sound sourse reaches (2) stereo mics at different times--with this X/Y configuration that is impossible. Put the stand inside the cure of the piano with open lid--with mics about midway high in the open lid. Place the mic heads at about the threshold of the piano rim at about the first 'hole' in the plate (near the keyboard end. point the mics downward a bit & record. Try to experiment with mics closer/farther etc. Closer is usually a bit better even if that doesn't seem right--too much room sound will become annoying in your recording in the long run
---
Good luck, Mat D.

Subject: May I ask a question?
From: Cork
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 22:22:32 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat, may I butt in and ask some questions on this subject? What would you recommend for a home system to record piano? Regardless of what I (or John) have right now, could you give us some ideas that balance quality of recording with reasonable price? Brand and model of microphones, ditto preamp, etc. Would you go with something like Sony's MiniDisc, or a CD-RW in a computer? Good old cassette tape? I'm extremely interested in doing precisely what John's trying to do, but a pro's guidance would be fantastic. Thanks, Cork

Subject: Re: May I ask a question?
From: Mat D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:41:28 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Hi Cork, At this point in time, I would recommend MiniDisk as a recorder because it is (1) high quility digital, (2) available in portable size, (3) re-recordable (4) affordable. As for mic pre’s there are many to choose from; A.R.T. makes a nice inexpensive model—(Dual MP—2 ch. Tube $329) or the A.R.T. (Pro MP 2 ch high –end tube—$599 very nice!). Another company is RANE (VP12 2 ch solid state w/EQ & compressor $599). Another way to go for mic pre’s is with a small mixing console such as MACKIE (MS1202 VLZ $429) As you can see, this is a good value, you get 12 channels of mixer which includes (4) ch of mic pre, also you get (2) aux sends/returns for ‘outboard’ digital effects and eq on every channel. The advantage here is that you can remix/EQ/add effects to your recording—(you will need another deck to record to however—maybe your computer). The disadvantage is a slightly higher learning curve and slightly lower quality mic pre's (almost negligable though for your purpose). As for the microphones—lots of choices—I’ll recommend a couple good ones: CROWN (CM-700 $289 each). AKG (C3000 large diaphram excellent! $438 ea.) either of these choices will yeild excellent results. These are all retail prices & real-world prices are much better to be sure! If this all sounds like a lot of money, I guess you’re right so here is the budget package I would recommend: Sony MD (portable model w/mic pre built in.—mine is an older model MZ1 which you won’t find but whatever the comparable model is today
---
must have microphone input—they’re really not too bad). All you’ll need then is a Sony (or comparable) “stereo” microphone (I own the ECM 909—costs about $150 and is really great for the money). This model might not be the current but you are looking for a “stereo” electret condenser microphone (it uses a battery) for $125-200 (SONY is good). I’ve used this simple setup up to record my choir w/my accompaniment on organ & piano
---
the results are quite good. After all is said & done, the most imporatant factor is knowledge of what you are doing, namely signal flow & levels. This is absolutely a must in the first scenerio with the mic/pre/mixer etc. With the budget setup, it is quite simple, just keep your levels as high as possible as long as they are out of the red (0bD);digital audio is totally unforgiving of levels that are too high, but not high enough & you lose signal-to-noise specs. Another area of importance is microphone placement. You must experiment here because each acoustic environment is different but, I would start with fairly close miking—with open lid, place mics at the threshold of the rim pointing inside the piano. If you use (scenerio(1) ) 2 mics, point one mic at the first hole in the plate for treble and the other mic more toward the bass (to the right standing along side the piano)—again, experiment. In the second scenerio, place the “stereo” mic at the same threshold but since this is one microphone (stereo) just find the middle (approx) _ for best treble/bass balance. Well, there’s a crash course for you! Let me know what you think. Oh, one last thing, as with piano-buying, beware of salesman talk
---
most don't know too much about what they’re talking about. Best regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: May I ask a question?
From: John D.
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 12:01:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat, Thanks for all the excellent info! But I have a few more questions (I'm a recording illiterate!!!)... I like the idea of the budget set-up since I'm not looking to do anything too fancy. Is the SONY MiniDisc a stand-alone unit (as in you don't need a pre-amp)? You probably answered this in your response but I didn't totally understand. Once I am done recording on the Minidisc, I assume I can feed the MD output into my tape-deck and then make a decent cassette recording correct? Thanks for all your help, John D.

Subject: Budget set-up answer
From: Mat D.
To: John D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:42:33 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
John, Yes & No--Some MD's have a mic input on them (this is a simple mic preamp with a stereo minijack)and others don't. The typical 'home stereo' MD usually does not have a mic input but the portables often do; do not confuse 'portable' with lower quality, this is not the case. I own the SONY model MZ-1 (no longer available) but an equivalent is available. Here is what you do: You buy the portable MD (with stereo mic input[minijack) then buy the SONY ECM 909 (or equivalent) portable stereo electret condenser mic (uses battery for power supply--around $150). Plug the mic in the MD mic input, set your levels, position your microphone and that's it
---
it's absolutely the best way to get a good quality stereo digital recording that I can think of. These portable MD's have a mic in but you can only use the portable electret condenser mics (described)if you want to record without buying an external mic-pre amp. You cannot use the other 'Pro Level' condenser mics I described in the other post unless you use an external mic pre-amp. The answer to your other question about transfering your audio to your cassette deck is YES--simple. Using MD's is easier than a cassette deck because you can name tracks, cut & paste audio (to some extent) etc. Hope that helps. BTW these portable recorders are so nice you can take them on location & record other live events such as choir, band etc. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Budget set-up answer
From: John D.
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 14:55:35 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat, Thanks for your reply. This is excellent information and a masterpiece for someone such as myself who had only heard of minidisks but had no idea what they were (or even cared). Now I can't wait to get one. Like Cork, I'm putting this on my Christmas list along with the Jaguar XK8 convertible I keep asking for! Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Budget set-up answer
From: Mat D.
To: John D.
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 23:31:29 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
John, I've been using Minidisks for several years. When I started, no-one had ever heard of them
---
even now people don't understand them. The problem is, Sony didn't market them as what they are
---
A simple recording device that is easy to use, re-recordable and most of all, great quality. They were marketed to compete with CD players which are differednt beasts. The way I look at it, MD's are the replacement for the cassette
---
just as easy to use, but have all the added benefit of being editable (nameing, cueing etc) and digital which allows you to transfer the ausio from one of these to any other digital device (via a digital in/out cable & jacks) and have at the other end, a clone with no audio lose
---
-try doing that with a cassette! Good luck, Mat D.

Subject: John
From: Cork
To: John D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:44:21 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat, Thanks for all the excellent info! But I have a few more questions (I'm a recording illiterate!!!)... I like the idea of the budget set-up since I'm not looking to do anything too fancy. Is the SONY MiniDisc a stand-alone unit (as in you don't need a pre-amp)? You probably answered this in your response but I didn't totally understand. Once I am done recording on the Minidisc, I assume I can feed the MD output into my tape-deck and then make a decent cassette recording correct? Thanks for all your help, John D.
---
John, I think Mat missed your note, so I'll respond. The Sony MiniDisk is a stand-alone unit and you would not need a pre-amp in that scenario. And just like a tape recorder, you could hook it into your stereo system and use it as a source for your cassette deck recordings (or you could just play the MiniDisks through your stereo system). Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: John
From: John D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:40:30 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Cork, Thanks for your reply. I'm anxious to check out these minidisc units now! Later, John D.

Subject: Re: May I ask a question?
From: Cork
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 09:54:14 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Mat, Thanks for your advice! I do have a small stereo mixing console I picked up about eight years ago for my MIDI equipment, but I recall it was a bit noisy (everything but the Korg SGX-1D is in the attic now, out of reach of the kids). When I get a chance may I run the manufacturer/model by you to see if it's typical or just a piece of junk (I think it's a Peavey)? I never tried the mic inputs on the mixer . . . as an aside, I ran across a massive Crown amp on deep discount and bought it to drive my little home studio system. Talk about overkill, this thing could power a major rock band. Must weigh 80 pounds. Assuming the mixer is not junk, perhaps I could pick up a couple of the mics you recommend and try the mixer first, then upgrade to a preamp if the mixer doesn't cut it. Also, like John I have a very nice old Aiwa home cassette deck: three heads, Dolby HX Pro, Dolby C, automatic bias adj for each tape. The noise level when I record CD's is virtually unnoticeable. Is it even worth trying this deck with the mixer, or should I just go with a MiniDisk or CD-RW right off the bat? My old Ampex reel to reel certainly can't match the low noise of the Aiwa. Again, thanks for the scoop! Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: May I ask a question?
From: Mat D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 13:56:13 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Cork, sounds like a good strategy to start with what you have (mixer). The microphones are very imporatant so you would do well to pick those up first as you can use them with any setup you may have. Be aware that these are condenser mics and they require phantom power (this is standard on any decent mic-pre or mixer). You can buy an external phantom power box but I think that might be a waste of money, as it will not improve your mixer specs at all--if your mixer has no phantom power built in, i would say you'd be beteer off to pick up one of the mic-pre's or the mixer I mentioned (either one would do a great job). I think that for now, your Aiwa deck will be fine to record on--you can always upgrade to a MiniDisk or other digital device. Also, be aware that the consumer CDR decks (Philips) are set up to record only on the higher priced 'consumer' CDR disks; they won't record to the PRO (as in $1.00 each) CDR disks--just for your information. Keep in touch and feel free to e-mail me if you have any specific questions regarding your recording venture. Regards, Mat D. BTW one of our members here (Philip) bought that Mason & Hamlin BB I recomended that he look at
---
I'm really happy for him & I know he'll have a lifetime of pleasure from that great piano!

Subject: Mixer Specs
From: Cork
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 20:54:10 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Mat, My mixer is a Sunn RMX 4110 Rack Mount Mixer. All 10 input channels have both XLR and 1/4' balanced inputs, and two of the channels also have RCA input connectors. The mic inputs are differentially balanced XLRs with a continuously variable gain trim control (up to 40 dB) to accommodate different mic signals (or line level signals). Summary specs: THD Less than 0.05%, 20 Hz to 20 kHz @ +4 dBv output Hum & Noise -128 dBv equivalent input noise (Trim=Max) -92 dBv residual output noise -78 dBv master faders at nominal channel faders at minimum -72 dBv master & one channel at nominal (!) Max Voltage 52 dB channel input to left, right, or Amplification Mono output Crosstalk -70 dB adjacent input channels @ 1kHz (I assume I can minimize by using non-adjacent channels) It also has 3 independent send and return busses, but they aren't pertinent to this application. So, is it worth trying this old monster or should I just plan on getting a mic pre-amp? At the time I bought it Sunn seemed to have a good reputation. No implicit statement of phantom power; I assumed that the 'trim' performed this function . . . Thanks for the help! Cork

Subject: Re: Mixer Specs
From: Mat D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:59:23 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Cork, Well, you could give it a try, but Sunn hasen't been around (to my knowledge) for some time. I remember those mixers & to honest with you, they are nowhere near the quality of what you can get today in a nice mic-pre or Mackie 1202 mixer. Also there is no phantom power on this mixer (because it was not originally intended to do high-end audio) and a phantom power box alone would cost you a few bucks (probably $75-125)--you might as well put that money toward one of the other options. I wish I could be more encouraging. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Mixer Specs
From: Cork
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 10:30:22 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Oh, well. It was worth a trip into the attic to find out. I thought the mixer was too noisy in my MIDI system; it was clearly the weak link, but I got married and became broke before I had a chance to replace it. Looks like I bought it in 1989 or 1990, and Fender owned Sunn at the time. You've certainly given me enough food for thought on this. I suppose a good mic pre-amp would be useful regardless of whether I reconstruct my MIDI studio, and would still be employable in a system with a quality mixer. It is likely to be a few years before I need a mixer in any case, so replacing the Sunn makes little sense at this time. Time to do some Internet pricing . . . ;-) Off-topic, is my Crown Microtech MT-600 amp any good? It's certainly too powerful for my use, and I've thought of selling it. Mat, thanks a ton for all of your help on this. If I can find my old mic's (REALLY old mic's), I may bounce them off you for fun. I'll let you know what I buy; it may be my Christmas gift this year. Rgds, Cork

Subject: ,,old mics/power amp
From: Mat D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 12:50:10 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Cork, You are quite welcome. Your Crown Microtech amp is just fine. Crown has been making some of the finest power amps for years, in fact their CD300 is one of the all-time great power amps--totally indestructable. The Microtech line is a little less heavy duty but still very versatile and dependable; I don't know what it is worth though (I don't keep up on that stuff so much). Let me know when you dig up the 'old' mics--maybe you've got something that will work for you; it seems that the biggest strides forward with our new technologies have been in the mixer/pre-amp area, micrphones have changed very little, though there are many more to choose from now. Keep in touch, Mat D.

Subject: Additional thoughts . . .
From: Cork
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 15:56:34 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Mat, I'm certain that my mixer has phantom power for the mics, but that's an excellent point I'd forgotten. It's been years since I was semi-knowledgeable about this stuff. A couple of other ideas struck me as I was replying to John about the MiniDisk. I've used my Hi-Fi VCR to record long tapes of good music to play during parties (I was fortunate in acquiring a VCR with audio recording level LEDs), and the sound is better than most cassettes though somewhat lower quality than MiniDisk or CD, I believe. Another option for high quality sound might be a video camera. My Hi-8 or one of the new digital systems record audio tracks of superb quality. I'm fairly certain they have external mic inputs as well, though I don't remember if mine has a level indicator. If someone already has a good HiFi VCR or Hi-8/digital video camera, they could forego the added expense of a MiniDisk system. What do you think? Thanks again for the info. This is a fascinating discussion! (And I am thrilled that Phillip ended up buying a BB! Fantastic piano!) Cork

Subject: Re: Additional thoughts . . .
From: Mat D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 16:52:58 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Cork, you're right about the VCR audio routine. I think you might have the best luck with your Hi8if it has a mic input
---
-you could use one of the SONY portable electret condensers--that might be real nice. My objection to using a VCR or similar device for recording is that it seems so tedious because of it's size & more importantly the slow and inacurate rewinding/cueing (of course that's me, i do this all day long and I'd be out of my mind if I had to wait for VCR's to rewind everytime I wanted to monitor something). I record all my audio to 'multitrack' direct-to-hard drive which is random access &instantly cueable to any point. For your purposes though, you might try the Hi8 system
---
I think you'll find MD better because there is no waiting to cue up a track and all subsequent track are automatically numbered for easy access of any audio event. Give it a try, let me know. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: John D.
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 16:14:22 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
John, I make my living as a music producer & have my own recording facility with state-of the art digital & analog equipment so I might be able to help, but I need to know what microphones you are using etc. I suspect the problem is in your pre-amp (you are probably not using an external pre-amp for your mikes. You are probably going right into the recording deck inputs--correct? By tape deck, do you mean reel to reel or cassette? First of all, you need a decent pre-amp (a two channel unit which will allow you to bypass the mike inputs of the deck) so you can go into the line input of deck. You also might be trying to put your mikes too far back. try recording with the mikes at the edge of the lid with treble mike pointing down at the first hole in the plate and bass mike point toward middle of soundboard. please write back about your mikes etc.
---
Mat, Thanks for responding. As for my mikes, don't laugh... they are mikes I bought from Radio Shack about 5 years ago. By tape deck I meant cassette. And, you are correct, I have no external pre-amp and am going directly into the cassette deck inputs. I tried placing the mikes in SO many positions, that, believe it or not, I did just as you suggested. That position did not make any difference. I did find out that if I moved the mikes further from the piano the tape-hiss got worse. But that was the only difference I could note due to mike positioning. Of course I realize that with my equipment I'm not going to get a really good recording, but I'd be real happy with the recording I did get if it didn't have the tape-hiss. Thanks, John D.

Subject: Re: Recording a piano
From: Mat D.
To: John D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 00:46:48 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
John, actually, Radio Shack used to sell a nice micrphone, a PZM which was made by crown. I purchased (2) of these cheap ($50) microphones after I read that Alan Parsons (Pink Floyd 'Another Brick in the Wall/Alan Parsons project etc.) recorded all of his piano tracks using just these micrphones. I didn't recommend these in the above post because these are no longer available and the Crown models are rather expensive and a bit more difficult to use than a regular condenser microphone. Regards, Mat D.
---
more info in above post to Cork

Subject: Knabe - Opinions
From: Kim
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 17, 1999 at 13:03:11 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:

Subject: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai
From: Rae
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 17:08:18 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I've tried both the 5'10' Kawai RX-2 and the 5'10' Boston GP-178 and liked both of them - but haven't been able to try them side by side. The Kawai dealer says they are basically the same piano; the Boston dealer talks about all the differences (wood action and bigger soundboard in the Boston). Has anyone compared these two directly for tone and action? So far the biggest difference I'm sure of is price - the Boston is about $7K more!

Subject: Re: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai
From: Bruce
To: Rae
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 21:27:39 (EDT)
Email Address: Peano86381@aol.com

Message:
Rae: From what I have been told by numerous techs in my neck of the woods...Boston is basically a Kawai (its made in the same factory)...but the Steinway dealers will more often than not try to make you believe it's close to a Steinway!...if money is an issue, a Yamaha will cost you less than a Boston. Bruce

Subject: Re: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai
From: Cork
To: Rae
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 11:41:00 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Great advice from Andrew. I'd add that the bigger soundboard and the wood action are meaningless in this comparison -- treat them as marketing gimmicks and don't let them affect your decision. These are pianos of equivalent quality. Like Andrew said: play as many pianos as you can, play lots of music on them, take your time until a clear winner emerges. Cork

Subject: Re: 5'10' Boston vs Kawai
From: Andrew
To: Rae
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 08:08:11 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Have you tried Kawai RX-PDR? That's supposedly done with more meticulous workmanship. PDR series prices are comparable to Boston's for the same size. You don't need to play the pianos side by side. You do need, however, to play as long and as many times as you can manage on each piano until you really start to have a feeling for the qualities and characters of the instrument. You do the exact same thing with the other brand. Most dealers will accommodate knowledgeable customers spending hours on their showroom pianos trying out the the 'personalities' of the instruments until the customer is sure what he is getting or buying. Do not rush into making quick decisions. Try as many as you can and as long as you feel need to. Andrew

Subject: Piano Practise Elapsed Time indicator
From: Citylex
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:56:09 (EDT)
Email Address: alex78@mailcity.com

Message:
I am currently doing this project. It works like this : A unit designed for the piano studet to take along to their tutor so that tutor can read off the total time practised since tha last lesson.It is not intended to be a cheat proof box but an aid to both student and tutor. however, it should not be expected to accumualte significant false practise time during normal conversation , household noise and most musical instrument! If you have any suggestion of how to design this unit, do feel free to give me your idea! Thanks!

Subject: Contact Microphone for Piano??
From: Alex Tay
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 08:49:35 (EDT)
Email Address: alex78@mailcity.com

Message:
I am looking a type of contact microphone that only detect the vibration of the instrument (piano) ,but not other noise.Can anyone pls provide me with some information?Thanks!

Subject: strange noise from baby grand
From: Frank
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 02:36:02 (EDT)
Email Address: fyang@wdm.stanford.edu

Message:
We bought a Kohler & Campbell baby grand few months ago. Recently, we are hearing strange 'clicking' sounds on some of the keys 1 or 2 octaves above the center C. The sounds sometimes go away and sometimes are extremely noticeable. We have two tuners came to look at the problem, but unfortunately, on both times, the noises weren't obvious enough for them to hear... They both claim that we are hearing the actions of the hammers and we are too sensitive. Is this true? If so, how come only a few keys produce this strange click sound? The click is a small, high pitch sound; almost like metal banging on metal and is not really in tune with the note. It's produced when the key is struck. Does anyone know what the problem or the cause may be? Any help is greatly appreciated :)

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: Mat D.
To: Frank
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 22:55:05 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
I gonna take a wild stab at this. Check to see if the problem only appears on black keys, if so, it could be that your action bed is not seated properly (it may be pushed in too far) and when after playing a black key, it will come back up and the back of it hits the inside of the fall board. This is just a wild guess, but it happened to me when my technician didn't get the action seated properly after a tuning. Check at you piano to see hoe close the back of the sharps & flats are to the inside (logo side facing keys) of the fall board. I hope that makes sense. Good luck. Mat D.

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: Cork
To: Frank
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 17:35:01 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Man; lots of questions I'd like to ask. Can you reproduce the noise without the hammer hitting the strings? Or is it mixed with the attack? Your description of a metallic high-pitched sound in that range of a new piano leads me to believe it might be a detuned condition of the trichords in question. The noise would come and go as humidity fluctuated, changing the tension on the strings. Otherwise, you've gotten great comments from the others. If you have a cassette recorder and mike, see if you can tape it the next time it gets bad so you can play it back to the tech. Good luck, Cork

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: Frank
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 16, 1999 at 01:29:07 (EDT)
Email Address: fyang@wdm.stanford.edu

Message:
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone's comment and help! It's good to know that we're not crazy and hearing things that don't exist. To answer some of the questions. The click happens on white and black keys. It's there only when the hammer strikes the string. You can hear it when the key is played either softly or loudly. However, when playing loud, the click is masked by the sound of the note. The occurrance seems to vary with humidity or temperature since it comes and goes. The detuned theory seems quite plausible. However, when we damped any two of the three strings and played the note, we could still hear the click. Come to think of it, the click sounds almost like striking a damped string. I know it's not the damper interfering because when I lift the damper and strike the key, I can still hear the click. It's as if something else is dampling the string ever so slightly. Anymore suggestions? Thank you all!

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: Robert J.
To: Frank
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 15:33:07 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I recently purchased a Young & Chang PG-150 and had a similar problem with two of the keys. Fortunately after a little persistence I was able to get the tuner/technician to hear it and he was able to fix it. I believe the two hammer mechanisms were “clicking” together prior to hitting the strings. He sanded it off a little bit and now it works beautifully. Good Luck. Robert J.

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: Charlie
To: Frank
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 13:57:35 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
I heard clicking noises on a Boston piano I was considering for purchase. The dealer told me that the noise was normal, so I didn't buy the piano and I will never set foot in that dealership again. I bought a Rieger-Kloss piano that doesn't click. I would say that if this is normal, why don't all the keys do it? Why is it only some? My opinion is the sound is far from normal and should be addressed. I found I could easily re-create the click on the Boston by pressing the key so lightly that the string did not actually sound, but the click was there! If at all possible, try to find a way to re-create the sound so you can demonstrate it for the technician. You may want to get a different technician to work on the piano. Your technician should be your partner in trying to get the piano to sound right for you. If he or she isn't helping then look for someone who can. Good luck, Charlie

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: John D.
To: Charlie
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 14:48:51 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I had a similar problem on a Steinway that was in my possession for a few years. The problem could usually be reproduced (though not always) in the way Charlie described - by pressing the key so lightly that the string did not actually sound. The problem came and went but was easily fixed once the tech heard it. A minor adjustment was needed to the action, I'm not sure exactly what it was. I agree, the problem is not normal. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: strange noise from baby grand
From: Andrew
To: Frank
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 08:39:47 (EDT)
Email Address: Andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Try to strike that key/keys hard. If the noice comes back when you strike the key hard then it's possible that the glue attaching the hammer head to its stem is loose. If this is the case it is an easy problem. Otherwise only a seasoned tech can check it out and fix it for you. Cork and David, have you guys have any ideas? Andrew

Subject: Frequent-Played keys
From: AlexTay
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 10:00:07 (EDT)
Email Address: alex78@mailcity.com

Message:
I am doing a research on piano. If possible, could you pls tell me the most frequent-played notes(a range) on piano with some supportive proves?

Subject: Re: Frequent-Played keys
From: Mat D.
To: AlexTay
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 23:46:47 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Alex, I don't know for sure, but reason tells me it has to be middle 'C' and surrounding notes. On the grand staff, middle 'C' is the center point of the staff but more importantly, middle 'C' is a note that seems to be played as freguently by the lesft hand & the right. One way you might check this is to get hold of several classical midifiles (available free on the net), load them in a sequencer/editor and do an editing procedure that might go something like this: go into the editing page (after loading the midifile) and delete all notes outside of middle 'C'
---
-count the # of middle 'c''s. Repeat this procedure several times (use the 'UNDO' and repeat) & check other notes. Repeat this whole process for several classical piano pieces & you'll have a pretty good idea of your answer. Sounds like fun--good luck, Mat D.

Subject: Temperament
From: Brian Holden
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 21:02:45 (EDT)
Email Address: bholden@wave.co.nz

Message:
I am a professional piano tuner who is experimenting with electronic tuning. When I tune the temperament F to F, exactly to the audible tones of a good Korg chromatic tuner, the fourths and fifths are still out, not to mention the thirds when I do a test. The result is not much better when I use the meter. I would have thought that the scale would have been almost perfect. What's going on here?

Subject: Re: Temperament
From: Granholm Bros
To: Brian Holden
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 21:14:00 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
I am a professional piano tuner who is experimenting with electronic tuning. When I tune the temperament F to F, exactly to the audible tones of a good Korg chromatic tuner, the fourths and fifths are still out, not to mention the thirds when I do a test. The result is not much better when I use the meter. I would have thought that the scale would have been almost perfect. What's going on here?
---
I'm not familiar with the Korg tuner, but I'll agree with Cork's hypothesis. The reason your tuning doesn't sound right is because your electronic tuning device (ETD) isn't tempering the intervals. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: Temperament
From: Cork
To: Brian Holden
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 15, 1999 at 16:30:14 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
I am a professional piano tuner who is experimenting with electronic tuning. When I tune the temperament F to F, exactly to the audible tones of a good Korg chromatic tuner, the fourths and fifths are still out, not to mention the thirds when I do a test. The result is not much better when I use the meter. I would have thought that the scale would have been almost perfect. What's going on here?
---
Hey, Brian. Kinda hoped Mr. Granholm might answer this one, but I'll give it a crack. My reply is predicated on the assumption that the Korg to which you refer is similar to their guitar tuners. If this isn't the case, ignore the ramblings below. As you know, you must stretch the octaves when tuning a piano to accommodate the inharmonicity of the strings. In the US, there are at least three different electronic tuning devices that help the technician perform this function: the Sanderson Accu-Tuner (SAT), the Reyburn Cyber-Tuner (RCT), and Tune Lab. The former is a standalone, dedicated device while the latter two are computer programs that operate on a laptop PC. These devices enable the tech to measure the particular piano's inharmonicity and produce a tuning which 'best fits' the instrument, theoretically. Actually, they get the tech in the ballpark, but that's another story. The problem with the Korg, I believe, is it is not computing any stretch in the tuning: it is providing you with the exact (theoretically accurate) frequency for any given note. However, in a properly tuned piano the only note likely to precisely hit the theoretical frequency is your A starting point. After that every note will deviate from the proper frequency. Thus, the problem is the device you are employing. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Tom
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 16:04:36 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I began taking piano lessons 18 months ago for the first time at age 47. When I began lessons, I bought a new Yamaha P2 upright (45') and have enjoyed it. I am now considering getting a grand piano. I have read earlier postings and got the impression that buying a baby grand may not be worth the money when compared to a good upright. I plan to get the Fine book before making any purchase, but thought I would pose a few questions and get your opinions: 1. Does the Steinway Model S (5' 1') suffer from the same types of deficiencies that people have identified in other small grands? 2. How would you rate the Boston grands generally and would I be advised to trade up to the GP-163 (5'4')? 3. How does the Yamaha GP 1 (5' 3') compare to the Boston GP-163? I think it can be purchased for several thousand dollars ($3-4,000) less. 4. Given my relative inexperience and lack of proficiency, does it even make sense to those of you who have much more experience playing for me to be buying (or considering buying) a grand piano? Thanks

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Tom
To: Cork and Ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 22:25:52 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Again, I appreciate your opinions and insights. I am not wedded to Boston, Yamaha or Steinway. They are the only ones I have seen and played (as best I could) so far. I am most interested in a high quality instrument that I could 'grow' into as I learn. What would be your choice of instrument knowing what you now know and if your were in my position?

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Cork
To: Tom
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 11:54:13 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Tom, We really don't know what your 'situation' is, nor will we! No one can tell you which instrument is best for you, only you can decide that. We don't know your goals in piano, your tastes in music, the depth of your pocketbook, or the space you have for an instrument. Really, we can only tell you what WE would like to have based on our own preferences and situation. While that might make interesting reading, it shouldn't affect your decision on the piano best for you. Having said all that, here is a short list of my dream pianos (not necessarily in order of preference): pre-1910 Knabe, pre-1928 or brand new Mason & Hamlin BB, pre-1928 Steinway C, Steinway B, any number of European instruments, or any one of a number of US-made brands made in the period 1890 to 1928. Also, I'd be quite pleased to have a Baldwin SF-10, could probably live happily with a Baldwin L, and would strongly consider a Charles Walter grand if further playing reinforces my initial positive experience. That and a couple of bucks will buy you some coffee at Starbucks!!! Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: ryan
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:36:58 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I second Cork's comments. I can tell you what I like, but the best way to choose an instrument is to go out and try them yourself. I have been searching for a new piano myself, and have brought home stacks of product brochures, and have spent hours in stores trying out various pianos. I have had some pleasant surprises. The Charles Walter studio was a very pleasant surprise. It's tone and feel surpassed what I expected from a piano in this size and price range. I can't wait to try his grand. Ryan

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Tom
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:33:50 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks, Cork. I understand and appreciate the qualifications on your opinions. No more questions -- I promise.

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Cork
To: Tom
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 13:29:19 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Tom, we enjoy the questions, but we want you to be aware of our limitations! Selecting an instrument is highly personal; we can help by advising about the process and puncturing some of the sales pitches you'll hear, perhaps we can even suggest instruments to try. But at the end of the day it is your decision. Enjoy the decision process! Cork

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Tom
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 13, 1999 at 22:13:54 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Your 'process' and 'sales pitch' advice helped me even before I posted my questions. I was able to discount the criticisms of Petrof based on earlier postings I had read. I'm not simply relying on your opinion and those of others. I'm looking for leads and suggestions to help me explore alternatives that I have not heard about before. Your reply was very interesting and helpful and will gave me alot of avenues to explore. I expect to have a great deal of fun searching for an instrument. My only wish is that I could play better. But, I am practicing.

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Cork
To: Tom
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 14, 1999 at 10:35:10 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Great attitude! I hope you'll give us updates from time to time on what you are considering, what you like about one brand over another, and obviously I hope you'll ask any questions you might have. Cork

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Tom
To: Cork and Ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 12:40:38 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Tom
To: Cork and Ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 12:43:37 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thank you very much for your insights. I have space limitations and probably could not fit a grand much larger than a 5'8' or so.

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: ryan
To: Tom
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 15:35:10 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I am in a similar boat, except that I can't fit a grand in my house at all, unless I want to relegate it to the basement. I am using a digital which was a useful compromise to keep my fingers in shape, but I really want to find a 'real' piano! The 5'8' Boston should make a fine piano. They seem to be very well built. They are not my personal favorite, but they are actually quite good pianos. In that price range, there a few uprights that I like a little better (like the Sauter), but that's probably a taste thing more than anything. Good luck in your search!

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Cork
To: Tom
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 14:56:22 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
That size (5'8') is an excellent one, and there are a number of excellent instruments available. Play all that you can find! Cork

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: ryan
To: Tom
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:35:30 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Cork has some really comments. I would like to add that I don't really like Steinways that are smaller than the Model L. To me, the smaller models don't have that Steinway 'magic', which makes them not worth the money. Again, that's my opinion. I also don't like the smaller Boston or Yamaha grands that you mentioned. They leave me a bit cold tonewise, especially the Yamaha. I just don't think they sustain well, or have great tone, and I wind up getting frusterated when I try to play them. There are uprights that are better pianos than all of these. For an example of a Sauter that I have been looking at, see my post under Boston grands. As for your fourth questions, I think it makes total sense to want to move up to a better piano. The better pianos have a richness in their tone and a feel that makes them fun to play and can inspire you to play better and longer. I would advise care in choosing an investment like a piano, though, because you can get stuck with something that you later realize you don't like. Play as many pianos as you can, for as long as you can to try to get a sense of what you might like for the long term.

Subject: Re: Yamaha/Boston/Steinway Grands
From: Cork
To: Tom
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:46:19 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
1. Yes. Though it is fairly well-made and has a good action, it's still too small to be seriously considered as a musical instrument unless it is the only grand that fits in a very tiny space. 2. Boston grands are well-made, mid-level grands, equivalent to their Yamaha and Kawai counterparts. Not in the same class as Steinway, but not intended to be, either. 3. There's a reason for the difference in price. The GP1 is made to combat the entry-level pianos of the Korean manufacturers; it is not a good piano for a serious pianist, though it does look nice in the typical yuppie's bay window. 4. Of course it does. Anyone with the dedication to learn to play this marvelous instrument deserves the best piano he or she can afford. Having a fine grand or upright can make the difficult practice sessions more enjoyable, and increase your pride in your accomplishments. Sure beats trying to learn on a spinet. Cork

Subject: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: John D.
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:31:07 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'm a regular reader of this forum and enjoy reading thru the posts. However, I read the postings about grand pianos and skip postings about uprights. Ironically, I have two different friends asking my recommendation about an upright. Neither of these friends know anything about pianos. They both want to buy from the local dealer who sells only Petrof and Yamaha. I have played both the Yamaha and Petrof grands and prefer the Petrof. I don't get excited about either brand of upright - my opinion is it's a toss-up. Anyone have any opinions about these two pianos? I'd also like to know if the Petrof uprights have as many problems as the grands. Thanks in advance, John D.

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: Joy
To: John D.
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:16:13 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
It's worth it to read through past postings. Just look for the ones on uprights and Petrofs, like I did. Petrof makes a fine upright. My piano technician says you can't go wrong with their studio, 50 or 52 (the best one) models. Just don't get a console in ANY brand. He's a big Steinway fan, and he doesn't like Yamahas. In my search for an exquisite-sounding used upright, I've read and re-read many of the postings. They make even more sense after you've visited many showrooms and private homes sampling pianos. You even pick up the lingo! After many months, we are finally bringing our piano technician along to sample one. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this is THE ONE. Gawd, other people beat us to two similar pianos -- same brand!!! Tell your friends to call a piano technician. Make sure he/she is registered with the Piano Technicians Guild. They have a website, too. Good luck. The search is fun.

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: John D.
To: Joy
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:15:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Joy, Thanks for your comments. I did search, and read thru, the old posts about Petrof uprights. It does appear that there is a fair amount of disappointment over their initial quality. I also just met someone who owns a Petrof grand and has had a lot of problems with it. Nevertheless, I went back on my own and played the Yamaha and the Petrof uprights and I'm still not excited by either one. Maybe I'm just not an 'upright' person. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: bobb
To: John D.
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:06:50 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
I tend to be in agreement with John D. This is not a popular view on this forum, but I haven't gotten excited over Petrof uprights (as opposed to the grands, which I would die for). That could be because none were really well prepared, but these are high quality dealers who have prepared their Petrof grands quite nicely. True, they might cut corners on the uprights thinking the average buyer won't care too much - a shame. At any rate, my point is not that Petrof uprights are or are not good. If you love it when you play it at the shop, buy it by all means - it's a good deal. If you're not sure, you really have a dilemma. One view is that you have to insist that the shop should fix it until you love it *before you buy it*. But they may just not want to do it - they'll tell you "we prefer to tune and voice in your home after......". That may be another way of saying buy now, ask questions later. The other view is that you should get a very good deal on price, then forget about the store tech - get the best one in your area, and work with that person to make the Petrof into a nice piano. The advantage of that is clear - the private tech is appropriately compensated, cares about his word of mouth client base, and hasmore time and much better incentives to do the job right. I think the $400 is well worth it, and if you go with this you buy the piano at a place with little service and lower price. If I were fundamentally confident about the piano, I would certainly go this route. But I'm just uncertain enough about Petrof uprights that I would be afraid to buy before I really, really like the piano. Hence the catch-22. Now, before I go on, I should say that I am not bashing Petrof or uprights - at least not necessarily. Petrof uprights have a fundamentally pleasing tone, unlike any other upright that I know of at comparable price - and of much higher quality than the more expensive Yamaha U models. But the dynamic range is pretty limited, the bass is not potent, the regulation is not great, there are buzzes and wood noises and (by far the most annoying in my opinion), the damping in the bass is insufficient - there is a discordant ring-through, which I have also heard on many other uprights. Again, a private tech may be able to fix them and make the piano great. I would just warn you to ascertain that in advance (or have an understanding with the dealer about turning the piano back if you are not *very happy* when the private tech finishes. Now, here is one thing I wanted to bring up; and I am very interested in others' experiences here. The best Petrof upright is supposed to be the 52", and that is said to be made to a higher standard (e.g. true Renner action, rather than Renner action parts). I only heard one, and here is what I found - it did *not* have the problems that I am complaining about above. But I was surprised that instead of the rich Petrof sound, this one had a *very* bright sound, and it sounded very German, with lots of fundamental and no overtones. Well the latter is a matter of taste (though I prefer the East European sound, which is actually closer to Steinway in some ways). But the former was just not acceptable. Is it that that particular one was just not voiced? Di somebody voice it *up* (it was discounted because it had been played in a few concerts around town)? How good might it have sounded if properly voiced? I would be interested in hearing from the experts on this. But for the person initially posting the question, I would stress that with this one we are back to my catch-22 dilemma. The dealer didn't want to voice it before I decided to buy it, and I had no chance to judge. Refuse such deals!

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: John D.
To: bobb
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:15:34 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Ryan/Bobb, Thanks for your responses. My friends are rather limited in what they can spend on a piano. Therefore Schimmel/Sauter would probably be out of the question (I'm guessing these are more expensive instruments). I played the 52' Petrof with the full Renner action. This particular piano was not bright, but I did not like the base - it was dull and 'thunky'. It could have been that this piano needed the copper windings turned or something. No difference, this was out of both friends' price-range anyway. They were both looking at consoles while I was trying to talk them into a studio at the very least. However, even the studio version of both pianos was not satisfying. I am actually more inclined to recommend the Yamaha simply because of its excellent 'out of the box' quality. If only they were buying a grand, the choice would be clear... Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: Cork
To: John D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 13:22:35 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Just a thought spurred by a note in another thread: you might have them look at the Charles Walter verticals. Cork

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: ryan
To: John D.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 12:26:40 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
It's really tough to beat Yamaha in that price range, because of their 'out-of-the-box quality', as you said. If I were limited in price, I would probably go the same route myself. I think their full uprights are very playable, sound good, are usually in great shape out of the box, and are built well.

Subject: Re: Petrof upright versus Yamaha:
From: ryan
To: John D.
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:41:48 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@synario.com

Message:
I have played Yamaha and Petroff uprights, and am also not thrilled by either of them. I have recently been shopping for a new piano, and have played a number of uprights made by Charles Walter, Kemble, Shimmel and Sauter. I know that none of these are brands that are being considered by the buyers, but it might serve them well to shop around a little more and not limit themselves to two brands. I thought the Charles Walter had a really nice tone, very american and very even up and down the scale. I like the grand size keys, the tonal range, and the dynamic range. I had no problem getting great tone for Chopin, Schubert, Beethoven, and Bach. One downside, however, is that the action had a little bit of a difficult time keeping up with very fast arpeggios like the ones in Chopin's Gm Ballade, so it's not totally ideal for practicing virtuoso pieces, in my opinion. The Kemble was a nice piano as well, but had more of a european tone. The same comments apply to the action. I prefered the Walter's larger keys and I think I liked it's tone a little better as well. The Schimmel had a much faster action (made by Renner). It is also a lot more expensive. I was able to play some virtuosic pieces on it without problems. It's still not a grand, but it's a very good piano. I think it had a little nicer tone than the other two, but that might also have to do with the better action which makes it a little easier to control exression and dynamics. Best yet, by far, was the Sauter upright. It has the fastest action of all, boasting an additional spring that makes the hammers return faster for a higher repetition rate. It really works. The tone was the nicest, however that might have something to do with the superior action which gives you more control over dynamics and expression. Well, action aside, I still like it's tone the best. It is also the most expensive! For beginners, I don't think you can go wrong with the Walter. It seems to be built tough and plays really well and has really nice tone. I could have used it from beginning to upper advanced reperatoire. I definately like it better than Yamaha, Kawai, and Petroff uprights that I have tried. Ryan

Subject: Rosler Piano
From: David L.
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 14:33:07 (EDT)
Email Address: davehead@pacbell.net

Message:
My wife and I are looking to buy a new upright piano. We are very interested in hearing from anyone with information about the quality of Rosler Pianos and if they are worth the investment. How do these pianos compare to Yamaha or Kawai? thanks for the help!

Subject: Re: Rosler Piano
From: Cork
To: David L.
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:51:29 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
I believe Rosler is Petrof's low-priced line. If that is the case, expect the instruments to be less consistent than the Japanese brands, requiring more prep (which is unlikely to be provided by the dealer, but can be accomplished by your own technician in your home). The positives are that it should cost less than an equivalent Yamaha or Kawai and has the potential to sound better. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Rosler Piano
From: David L.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 18:04:47 (EDT)
Email Address: davehead@pacbell.net

Message:
I believe Rosler is Petrof's low-priced line. If that is the case, expect the instruments to be less consistent than the Japanese brands, requiring more prep (which is unlikely to be provided by the dealer, but can be accomplished by your own technician in your home). The positives are that it should cost less than an equivalent Yamaha or Kawai and has the potential to sound better. Rgds, Cork
---
Thank you for your reply. I do have a question about 'Prep', what type of prep is neceesary for a Rosler piano (excuse my naivete!). Thanks again for your response.

Subject: Re: Rosler Piano
From: Cork
To: David L.
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 12, 1999 at 11:36:50 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
'Prep' is a loose term refering to the large number of adjustments that must be made to bring the instrument to its peak performance. Petrof instruments tend to receive inadequate final prep at the factory, so for these pianos to sound and play their best either the dealer must have a technician 'finish up' the prep or the new owner must. Since you are looking at a relatively inexpensive Petrof (Rosler), I suspect the dealer will cut corners on the amount of prep he allows his techs to perform on the instrument. If that is the case, you might need to have your own technician complete the job in your home. If you are interested in learning more about prep work such as regulation and voicing, refer to Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book'. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Kohler & Campbell string buzz
From: Roger
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 21:16:17 (EDT)
Email Address: rhaferkamp@earthlink.net

Message:
I just bought a Kohler and Campbell upright-4 years old in mint condition but notice a little buzzing on middle range of keys. I'm new to pianos Did I buy a turkey or is this something that can be remedied?

Subject: Re: Kohler & Campbell string buzz
From: Cork
To: Roger
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:55:48 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Common malady with a myriad of possible causes. It is unlikely the piano is a turkey; call your technician and have him or her check it out. Cork

Subject: Re: Kohler & Campbell string buzz
From: Roger
To: Cork
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 21:39:23 (EDT)
Email Address: rhaferkamp@earthlink.net

Message:
Thank you......

Subject: Boston Grands
From: Sandy
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 23:04:33 (EDT)
Email Address: sdleverone@aol.com

Message:
I am considering purchasing a Boston GP-156 (5'1'). I've read and been told by salespeople that the Boston grands in general are equivalent sound-wise to larger models from other manufacturers due to design of Boston's sound board (e.g., 5'1' Boston is equivalent to 5'5' from other manufacturer). Is this true? Are there other concerns with purchasing the 5'1' Boston model? I've been quoted a new sale price of $13,490 for this piano - is this a good price? Is it a 'not to be missed' price? We've really just begun looking and had not intended to buy so quickly, however, thought this seemed like a fairly good price for the piano. Advice?

Subject: Re: Boston Grands
From: Eric
To: Sandy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 12:59:02 (EDT)
Email Address: swiech76@yahoo.com

Message:
Sandy, I think Boston pianos are excellent, I've played on many and the feel and sound to it is excellent for that kind of price. And if you continue to play and want something better, with Boston pianos, you can move up to a Steinway within 6 years. So that is another consideration. Also with people saying grands under 6 feet are useless is total nonsense. They are still superior to most uprights. 9 inches isn't that big of difference unless you're a Horowitz or Rubinstein. For the amateur pianist, a smaller grand will do just fine for you

Subject: A question...
From: ryan
To: Eric
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 17:35:45 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
You wrote: 'Also with people saying grands under 6 feet are useless is total nonsense. They are still superior to most uprights.' My question is why? If you take the definition of an upright to be 49' tall and taller (which I believe is the usual definition), then I don't know if I understand what you base your statement on. For example, a 52' upright has a full size action which can be fantastic like the Renner or the almost as good Langer, has strings that are as long as in a 6'1' grand, and a soundboard that's at least as big. Comparing similar brands and price points, what makes baby grands more superior to uprights? Is it tone, playability, reliability, cost, volume? True there are some differences like the lack of a true sostenuto pedal (which I never use), a true una chorda pedal, and a different damper mechanism. These may or may not be worth the steep price increase that accompanies going from an upright to an equivalent grand.

Subject: Re: Boston Grands
From: ryan
To: Sandy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 11:25:26 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I played a number of Boston grands in a showroom about 3 years ago. At that time I could play Chopin's Op. 10 Etudes, Beethoven's Op. 101, and Bach's Cm Toccata, so I used these as test pieces. After spending some time with each model, I decided that I did not really like any of them, except for the longest. The touch and action is pretty good on all of them, but I did not like the tone on the smaller ones. I couldn't get the singing, sweet tone that I wanted, and chords seemed to lack the rich resonance that I prefer. This is purely a personal opinion, and my main motivation here is to encourage the buyer not to buy a piano based on whether someone else likes or dislikes the piano. You should spend a lot of time playing a piano before you decide whether to buy it or not, especially when talking about instruments that are over $5000. BTW, I really, really disliked the smallest Boston, but I don't tend to like grands that are smaller than 6' (except the 5' 6' Steingraber). On a side note, I am trying out a Sauter 130 upright that's listed at around $16,000. It has the same size strings as a 6' 1' grand and the soundboard is similar in area. It simply also blows away any grand under 6'1' that I have tried (except the Steingraber) and even some larger ones in the same price range. It has a beautifully resonant tone, sweet, full, singing sustain in the treble, and a bass that can really growl when you dig in. The action is as fast as any grand I have played, except possibly a Bosendorfer grand. I directly compared it to smaller Steinways, Yamahs, Young Chang (PG and G), Kawai, and Schimmel, and this upright outplays them all. So you can't judge a piano by it's cover, and you can't believe all the sales hype that you hear:-)

Subject: Re: Boston Grands
From: Cork
To: Sandy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:30:50 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Sandy, I echo Mat's advice: get Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book' before you buy anything. As for the marketing claim about the soundboard, ignore it. The soundboards in grands are too large already, so the increased size of the sb in a Boston is meaningless. A 5'1' piano is still a 5'1' piano, and will never sound like a properly-sized grand. Having said that, the Boston line is quite well-made (by Kawai in Japan) and definitely worth your consideration, especially the larger models. Don't buy one on marketing claims -- buy because you've done your research, played a large number of instruments, and selected the one with the tone and touch that appeals most to you. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Boston Grands
From: Mat D.
To: Sandy
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 00:06:20 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Sandy, I am not sure of the answer to your question about the price for the Boston piano, but since you are still looking, you might really consider something a little larger (unless of course you have limited space--or budget for that matter). I personally would not consider purchasing a grand piano under 5'8' (preferably 6' or more) of any manufacturer. A good alternative might be the Petrof 5'8' or even the 6'4'. I believe the 5'8' Petrof can be had (with some negotiating) for around $13,500--I have been quoted $16,500 for their 6'4' (that is a very nice piano). Just a little food for thought--don't be in a hurry, this is a major investment. Also, you might want to buy 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine-it is an excellent resource for new piano buyers; you might also scroll through the posts here--lot's of good info (read all of Cork's comments & also David Burton-they know what they're talking about) Best of luck, Mat D.

Subject: piano keys
From: teache42
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 21:23:30 (EDT)
Email Address: teache42@aol.com

Message:
Why are the black keys (sharps and flats) on the top of the keyboard and the white keys (naturals) on the bottom?

Subject: Re: piano keys
From: D. MacDuff
To: teache42
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 16:45:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Prior to the early 19th century, the colors of the keyboard were often reversed, with the 'black keys' covered on top with ivory strips and the 'white keys' made of a dark wood such as ebony. The 'reverse' color scheme was fine until keyboardists started playing great leaps and jumps, and needed the visual reference of the cracks between the white keys to see where they were going. By the way, the groupings of two and three black notes help one to find and name the white keys.

Subject: Re: piano keys
From: Jason
To: teache42
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 20:07:54 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I think the reason why white keys are the bottom and the black keys are on top is because that will make the white keys easier to reach. White keys are clearly used far more often than black keys are (there are songs like Schubert's Opus 90 Number 3 Impromptu or Chopin's Black Key Etude) so obviously, they need to be more within reach. Most songs, you'll notice require the use of white keys more than black. This is especially true of beginner songs; why torture beginners by placing the white keys further out of reach? The design of the keyboard is practical. The only types of songs which may require the use of black keys more are songs written in the keys of G flat major or E flat minor; but you'll notice that these kinds of songs are rather uncommon. I hope I make sense.

Subject: Schiedmayeror Steingraber grand piano
From: Joel
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:49:34 (EDT)
Email Address: drevetj@cicsun.univ-bpclermont.fr

Message:
I am looking for some infos on Schiedmayer or Steingraber grand and Baby grand pianos (possibly not spelled correctly!).These german facturers no longer exists and as far as I know was at one point were concurrents of Bosendorfer facturer. is anyone familiar with these labels and where can I get some infos? Thank you.

Subject: Steingraber is still in business...
From: ryan
To: Joel
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:59:25 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
I have tried out a couple this last week. Fantastic sounding pianos, and beautiful workmanship. The action might be a tad light and shallow for some, like Bechstein, but fantastic tone.

Subject: Re: Steingraber is still in business...
From: David Burton
To: ryan
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:18:49 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Yes Steingraeber is still in business, proudly so, the pride of Bavaria, have been making pianos for 150 years. Don't know whether Scheidmeyer is still in business, have heard of them. But getting back to Steingraeber and Bechstein for a moment, it is certainly news to me that either of these pianos have a light or shallow action. Ryan, if the piano you're playing on is like that it may be worth your while to suggest to the piano store that a piano tech should look into weighing off the action to produce a final downward weight of approximately 55 grams. Of course they may suggest that you buy the piano first. I'd make an action regulation one of the conditions of sale. Try this, next time you go in there, depress a key as lightly as you please, try not to make the hammer hit the string if you can, then gradually increase the force to get the lightest touch you need to make the hammer strike the string. You can try this near the top of the keyboard and near the bottom. The top notes should take slightly less force than the bass notes. Then of course there's the repetition test, which should be done with fingers on the same hand just to make it fair. Try repeating the same note as fast as you can on various notes up and down the piano. After you've made these tests really ask yourself if you had any resistance in your hands from the wrist down as a result of consciously or unconsciously compensating for a too light action. One of the faults of an action that's too light is that it will actually cause greater muscle fatigue over the long run than an action that's just right for you, which is just hard enough to offer some resistance when played. Play something really fast and find out if you can outrun the speed of the action or if the lightness of the action doesn't offer you enough traction to make the phrases come out right; that is you flub something up because the action is too light. I have played more Bechsteins than almost any other German pianos and all of them were heavier actions than I had been used to. The Steingraebers I remember being even a bit heavier than the Bechsteins. If they've changed this factor well, I'm sure it can be regulated to any desired weight and I'd certainly insist on something like that were I to seriously contemplate buying an instrument like these which I have held in the highest esteem.

Subject: I take it back!
From: ryan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 10:15:39 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
David, this weekend I went back in and played both Steingraber grands, the 7' and the 5' 6' models. I take averything back about the 'light and shallow' action comment. I agree it's a little heavier than the Bechstein. My comment was biased because I went from a Sauter piano with a pretty stiff and heavy action (the store hadn't finished setting it up yet) to the Steingraber, and the fact that I didn't have enough time to spend on it. So this weekend I went in to try to test it out more subjectively and to try 'faster' pieces on it. The result is that I again believe this is one of the finest pianos I have ever played. Both models have the most beautiful tone I have ever heard in a piano, with the exception of possibly a Bosendorfer. The action is silky smooth, and it's impossible for me to outplay it. It's also very responsive, like it has ESP. I played some of Chopin's Op. 10, Op. 23 and Op. 52, Beethoven's Op. 53, and the response was simply amazing. What really amazed me is that the smaller model is by far the best piano I have ever played in that size, and it is a much better instrument than most pianos that are even 1' longer. He acheives more string length and greater soundboard area by increasing the overstringing angle and widening out the end of the piano. The scale is perfectly balanced, and the extreme low and high notes are resonant and beautiful, without harshness, glassiness, or that percussive 'thunk' that you sometimes get in pianos that are not designed well. Playing music on these pianos is a fantastic experience . In short, I am going to own one of these some day, if I ever get enough money! I could be happy playing even the smaller model for the rest of my life.

Subject: Re: Steingraber is still in business...
From: BEN
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 04:59:34 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
the problem wuf playing fast n lively songs is after u have played it for a While,,ur hands tend to sweat and u would get 'sweaty palms'..the keys would get slippery and difficult to press..my finger would literally slip off the keys.. i'm still trying to tackle this problem by cleaning the keys b'fore use n drying my hands b'fore playing but i still get this problemm.. does anyone knows how to tackle tis problem?? ur advice i s greatly appreciated..

Subject: Sweaty Flying Fingers
From: D. MacDuff
To: BEN
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 18:03:07 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
This sounds like a problem with slipping off black keys. The only cure for this I know of is working on 'black key scales.' The sweat may be compounding an underlying balance problem with staying centered on the black keys with the pads of the fingers.

Subject: Re: Sweaty Flying Fingers
From: BEN
To: D. MacDuff
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 08:44:42 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
the white keys are alos a problem too!!

Subject: Steinway Grand-model B
From: Phillip Henderson
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 23:51:27 (EDT)
Email Address: phillip565@aol.com

Message:
First, let me thank all of you who gave me advice as to the Yamaha C-7 and the Baldwin SF 10. I'm still in the 'searching for the right piano' mode, so I would appreciate any advice on another piano, the Steinway Model B. As of today I have learned there will be a 1981 Steinway for sale very soon in my area. This instrument belongs to a teacher, and due to a divorce situation, she is forced to sell as her new home will not accomodate this size instrument. I have not seen this piano, but have been told it is in excellent condidtion, and well cared for. It is being sold by a dealer(not a Steinway dealer) on consignment. The asking price is $31,000. I certainly will not purchase it until I play it and have it throughly checked out. My question is, if the piano is in excellent condition, and I find it to my liking, is this a fair price? I have played this model before, and found it to be a superb instrument, but this was a much newer model. I truly would appreciate any advice or comments. Thank you Phillip

Subject: Re: Steinway Grand-model B
From: Andrew
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 09:26:03 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Phillip, I ditto everything Mat said here. Since you're now talking about something in the price range of 30+k. M&H deserves your attention. I have not played any of the new M&Hs. I did played on quite a few old M&Hs of all sizes. It amazes me that I have not come across one M&H that is less than perfect. On the other hand, I have encountered MANY Steinways, particularly the new ones in the showrooms that are less than satisfactory. This is not to say Steinways are bad piano. (As a matter of fact I am a Steinway fan and a happy owner of one) With the money you're talking about, I would definately give M&H a try. These pianos are heavy though. The workmanship IMHO, compared to Steinway, seems to be superior. If you know what you're looking for then probably you'll understand why some people say once you play a M&H there's no turning back. Happy piano hunting. Andrew

Subject: Re: Steinway Grand-model B
From: Mat D.
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 11, 1999 at 00:20:40 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Phillip, If you play the piano & love it (chances are you will--Steinway B is the favorite among most artists as their personal piano) then $31,000 is a fair price. This piano will hold its value. Before you jump in with both feet though, I would advise you to check out the Mason & Hamlin BB (7'). This is my personal piano and when I bought it, I checked out all the competition including the Steinway B. I am not going to argue for or against one or the other but I believe you can negotiate a price on a new M&H BB in the $31,000 range. They list at $47,000 and if you are a decent negotiator, you can get 35% off. I hope you have a M&H dealer in your area because this is a 'world class' instrument worth looking at. Please let us know what you find. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Questions about Lester Pianos
From: Roxanne
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:10:32 (EDT)
Email Address: perkins_r@acadmn.mercer.edu

Message:
Can you give me some information on Lester pianos? I was told they were bought out in the 60s. Who were they bought out by? Are they good pianos? Could you compare them to a better known piano? What would you say about a totally rebuilt (within the last year) 5'3' 1913 Lester Grand?

Subject: Re: Questions about Lester Pianos
From: Granholm Bros
To: Roxanne
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 10:42:11 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
Can you give me some information on Lester pianos? I was told they were bought out in the 60s. Who were they bought out by? Are they good pianos? Could you compare them to a better known piano? What would you say about a totally rebuilt (within the last year) 5'3' 1913 Lester Grand?
---
As far as I can determine, Lester remained independent until the company closed in 1960. Lester's early instruments were in the average to good range, with the exception of casework on some the their uprights, a couple of which we have redone. They built some very nice upright cases. I have less experience with their grands. As far as comparisons go, I'd say better than Brambach or Whitney, not as good as Baldwin or Steinway. The only way to get a reliable opinion on the particular piano in question is to have a local independent piano technician check it over. John Granholm Granholm Bros Piano Roseburg OR

Subject: Re: GRANHOLM
From: BEN
To: Granholm Bros
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 09:35:40 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
GRANHOM,, u ever heard of a korean brand 'WEINBERG'?? any comments on its 5'3 grand piano??

Subject: Buying a Grand
From: Phillip Henderson
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 07:56:31 (EDT)
Email Address: phillip656@aol.com

Message:
I am seriously considering purchasing a Yamaha artist grand, the 7'6' model, for my home. Does anyone own this piano, and if so any thoughts about it. I have considered Steinway, and Baldwin, and I truly like the responsivness, clarity of tone, and the action of the Yamaha. I would appreciate any comment. Also, the cost factor of the Yamaha is quite a bit less.

Subject: Re: Buying a Grand
From: Andrew
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:45:56 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
In addition to what Cork recommended, I'd like to point out that the more recent DC7IIXG model, another 7'6' you might want to try out if money is not an issue for you. It's, however, an additional $10,000. I have not tried it myself but have read a few articles that rated this model highly. Andrew

Subject: Re: Buying a Grand
From: Cork
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:35:55 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
In my opinion, the C7 is one of the best scales in the Conservatory line (along with the C3). This is a very nice instrument, and is used in many small concert halls. I assume that your comment about cost refers to the Steinway B, not the Baldwin SF-10, because you should be able to get the latter for about the same price as the C7 with negotiation. However, if the C7's tone and touch attract you (as your note indicates), buy it with confidence. Cork

Subject: Re: Buying a Grand
From: Andrew
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 08:14:26 (EDT)
Email Address: Andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
This is pretty much a personal thing. If you do like the sound and touch of a Yamaha. The artist series should serve you well. IMHO it can be an excellent piano for Mozart and Scarlatti but less than perfect for Beethoven or Rachmaninov. If, on the other hand, you do jazz on it more than classical, can be everything you want it to be. Andrew

Subject: Re: Buying a Grand
From: David Burton
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:23:39 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
If you like the touch, the tone and the price and you want to know whether we think Yamaha is a good brand to buy in a 7'6' grand then my answer is YES.

Subject: Re: Buying a Grand
From: BEN
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 05:06:46 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Why not try out the KAWAI RX-6.. i have one at home...the bass sound is extremly 'bassy' and powerful while it has a tone almost of a concert grand.. migfht try considering one of these if ur are aiming at yamahas... gd luck

Subject: Baldwin SF10
From: Phillip Henderson
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:05:50 (EDT)
Email Address: phillip656@aol.com

Message:
Thank you for sharing your thoughts concerning the Yamaha C7. Does anyone have an opinion concerning the Baldwin SF 10. I played one today, and actually found it wonderful. Beautiful response, rich tone depth, and a very quick action. Of course the price is higher than the Yamaha, but I think that could be negotiated. Thank you.

Subject: Re: Baldwin SF10
From: t D>
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 23:01:23 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Phil, I can only give my personal opinion because the Baldwin SF10 & Yamaha C7 are both excellent instruments. Between these two, I would personally go for the Baldwin; it has a richer, more complex sound & in the long run I believe will give you greater pleasure. When I bought my M&H BB last year, the Baldin SF10 was 1 of 3 pianos on the short list--the other being the Petroff II (7'6'). As long as you are still looking, do yourself a favor & check out the Petroff II--it has the potential to be as good as most Steinway B's --with the attention of an experienced technician. Whichever piano you buy, be sure to have the best technician you can find voice and regulate it for you; this may be part of the purchase agreement (it should be) but if the technician the dealer offers is not to your liking, negotiate a little better deal & hire your own technician to do the job
---
you will be amazed at what your piano can be. Another thing I wuld do is wait a little while (maybe a couple of months) before getting into any major voicing work--you should learn your instrument 7 it's environment first, then proceed with voicing adjustments. Hope that helps. Let us know of your decision. Mat D.

Subject: Re: Baldwin SF10
From: Cork
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 16:34:38 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I think the SF-10 is one of the finest 7' pianos on the market. They put a fine concert Renner action in it and it has a very rich tone. Clearly my favorite Baldwin, it may not be a Steinway B or M&H BB, but it also is significantly less $'s. Frankly, a good, well-voiced SF-10 is probably better than some of the B's I've played anyway. Andrew's note about it being difficult to tune is a surprise, since I've never seen that issue mentioned by techs on their discussion forums, and they are quick to bring it up in regard to pianos such as the S&S K52 upright.

Subject: Re: Baldwin SF10
From: Andrew
To: Phillip Henderson
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:24:52 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
SD10 and SF10. May I venture to say that the 'King' and 'Queen' of Baldwin? Very solid piano. We have many so-called 'Baldwin artists' which includes Earl Wild. Only drawback is it is a piano tuner's nightmare. It's very difficult to tune. Since you will be the player/pianist, you probably don't care. All in all this is a decent piano. IMHO, it is not a great one. Andrew

Subject: Re: Baldwin SF10
From: David Burton
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:49:16 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have never heard a tuner complain about tuning an SF`10 or an SD 10. I have heard them complain about having to tune old screw stringers like the really old Mason & Hamlins and those with bird cage actions. And I've heard them cuss at having to tune some horrible old console that hadn't been tuned in living memory, but neither of these Baldwins ever came up as being difficult to tune. I'll tell you what, these Baldwins are THE Baldwins and they are excellent pianos. You may want to experiment with the voicing after you've had one for a year or so. And the extra money you'll pay up front will be worth it liong term too.

Subject: Haines Bros. Grand Piano
From: L Misko
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 18:35:46 (EDT)
Email Address: misko@mb.sympatico.ca

Message:
Hi, I am inquiring about a Haines Bros. Grand Piano. I have not seen this piano yet, but I am told it is an upright. It is fairly big (I don't have the exact measurements). Is the 'square piano' or 'square grand' that is talked about in the 'Piano Book' by Larry Fine? The kind he recommends staying away from? As I have said, I have not seen it, but am told it is in good shape. It does need to be tuned (if I remember right it has not been tuned in 20 years). What is a piano like this approx. worth? Thanks

Subject: Re: Haines Bros. Grand Piano
From: Cork
To: L Misko
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 21:16:41 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
It is probably an old, large upright, many of which were labelled 'grands' in their name. But they are not. It is not a square grand. It is not a grand at all. The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano. Do not buy a used instrument without an on-site inspection by a professional piano technician. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Yamaha studios--help!
From: CC
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:15:47 (EDT)
Email Address: ccwi@aol.com

Message:
Does anybody have any comments on the Yamaha studio pianos? There is not much available in the area where I live and I'm trying to choose between the Yamaha P22, Kawaii UST-8c and the Yamaha T116. I'm trying to purchase a piano that will sound good and be of high enough quality to maintain my daughter's interest, but cannot afford much more than this. I had a horrible little Aeolian spinet as a child and quit. I don't want to make the same mistake with my child, so please, I'd really welcome your comments. Do you think the studios I'm considering are a good choice given a limited budget? Thanks.

Subject: Re: Yamaha studios--help!
From: Cork
To: CC
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 16:39:32 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
You should get a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', which will aid you in making your choice. Given your limited budget have you considered used instruments?

Subject: Re: Yamaha studios--help!
From: CC
To: Cork
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 18:15:54 (EDT)
Email Address: ccwi@aol.com

Message:
I've read Larry Fine's book, which was a tremendous help to people like me who know little or nothing about pianos. He recommends buying an upright no less than 48' tall though. These are all 45'. Used pianos have been hard to find here. Privately, all I've been able to find have been consoles and spinets or really old uprights. The only used piano the dealer had that I was interested in was a used Boston UP-118S which he'd have given me for $4,995. He had several of these and they had been used one year at a college. I'm leary of buying a piano used for institutional use though, even if it is a Boston. Plus, I think I have the dealers down to a really good price now on the studios (the Yamaha dealer is in another city, so I've been going back and forth between the two to get the best price). $4,295 for the Kawaii, $4,320 for the T116 and $4,195 for th P22. I'm leaning towards the T116 mainly because I want the practice petal (the other two have bass sustain). I liked the light touch of the Yamahas vs. the Kawaii. You guys obviously know a lot about pianos, what do you think about these different studios? Also, am I going to be sorry down the road if I buy a studio instead of a 48' upright like the U1? Thanks for your help Cork, I really appreciate your opinion.

Subject: Re: Yamaha studios--help!
From: Cork
To: CC
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 20:21:59 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
No, I don't think you are going to be sorry down the road. If you cannot afford a larger piano now you are at least attempting to find the best instrument you can within your means. Any of the pianos you've mentioned should serve your child well in the first years of piano study, and you might find yourself in a different financial situation in 5 or 6 years that might enable you to upgrade. Frankly, every one of these pianos are better instruments than that on which I began to play.

Subject: The Baldwin Continental E 100
From: Suchismit Chakravorty
To: All
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:19:30 (EDT)
Email Address: suchismit@hotmail.com

Message:
Hello, I just purchased a Baldwin Continental E 100 ( console). Does anyone have any opinion about this model ? It sounded decent, not as thin as some of the Asian pianos though not quite as deep as the taller studio models. This is also my first acoustic piano, and I play a lot of ragtime. Would appreciate any comments. Thank you.

Subject: Re: The Baldwin Continental E 100
From: Cork
To: Suchismit Chakravorty
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:41:37 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
You've already purchased the piano, so there is no advice we can offer. Clearly, you selected the instrument because you liked the tone, you did some amount of comparison shopping, and you purchased a console rather than a spinet -- good moves to make when shopping. The Baldwin should serve you well for any number of years as long as you keep it in tune and well-maintained by a technician. Congrats on your new piano! Cork

Subject: Re: The Baldwin Continental E 100
From: Suchismit
To: Cork
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:35:49 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks, appreciate your response.

Subject: Any comments on the above, please ??
From: Suchismit Chakravorty
To: Suchismit Chakravorty
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:44:35 (EDT)
Email Address: suchismit@hotmail.com

Message:

Subject: low vs high tension
From: eric
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:47:37 (EDT)
Email Address: swiech76@yahoo.com

Message:
What are the pros and cons of high tension vs low tension pianos

Subject: Re: low vs high tension
From: Cork
To: eric
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:10:58 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Within certain limits, a high tension scale can bring out more power and more high overtones (more complex sound). A low tension scale's primary attribute is sustain, with lower volume (power) at a given size. Steinway and M&H tend to be in the high tension range but lower than many Asian pianos. The Asian instruments tend to add too much tension (at the expense of sustain) to make up for shortcomings in power. The very high tension scales, unfortunately, also become very bright and brittle in tone. In my humble opinion, of course. For two extreme examples, compare a very high tension scale piano such as a Yamaha Conservatory grand with a low tension scale instrument like a Petrof Model II. I think you will quickly notice the differences. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: low vs high tension
From: Lewis
To: Cork
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:25:02 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
wat is tension?? does it refers to the touch of the keyz being heavy or light?? can someone elaborate??

Subject: Re: low vs high tension
From: Cork
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 09:30:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
The usage in this thread refers to the tension to which the strings are stretched when in tune. Different combinations of wire gauge, tension, and speaking length affect the fundamental frequency of the note.

Subject: Piano Finishes
From: Steve Tannehill
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:09:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Stannehi@ix.netcom.com

Message:
Question on piano finishes - do they affect the tone in any way? Is there any reason other than cosmetic to prefer one finish over the other?

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: Tim
To: Steve Tannehill
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:40:56 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Actually they do, but its effect is almost unmeasurable and therefore negligible. Its not just the vibrating strings that contribute to the tone but all physical objects in close proximity to the strings- most important of all of course is the soundboard. Even the acoustic enclosure is important. In general the larger the enclosure the deeper the tone as it can accomodate standing waves of longer wavelength(lower fundamental frequency). Theoretically the paint finsh is the least siginificant and you wont hear any audible difference in tone quality.

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: Cork
To: Steve Tannehill
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:55:21 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Question on piano finishes - do they affect the tone in any way? Is there any reason other than cosmetic to prefer one finish over the other?
---
No, they do not affect tone. The satin lacquer finish is easier to repair and blend than the high-gloss polyester finish, and far more technicians are skilled at working with lacquer than polyester. In poor-fitting assemblies (cheap pianos or cheap benches) polyester finishes can produce a most interesting squeak. And of course the high gloss finishes attract fingerprints like magnets. On the plus side, polyester is a pretty darned hard surface, and can take a bit of abuse. Fine scratches can be removed fairly easily (there's a product to remove scratches from polyester motorcycle windshields which works quite well). My personal instrument has a high gloss poly finish, but if there had been a choice I'd have purchased it in satin lacquer. Cork

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: Mat D.
To: Steve Tannehill
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:40:53 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Steve, Finish has no influence on tone. I personally have a satin ebony finish on my Mason & Hamlin--it looks good in my living room (the gloss is a little overwhelming IMO in that setting) but the gloss is a little easier to keep fingerprints off of. To clean the finish, I use a slightly damp chamoix and if I have fingerprints, I use just a little bit of liquid dish soap in the water solution--this will cut the grease from fingerprints. Good luck,, Mat D.

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: Cork
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:35:50 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Mat, Interesting that your's is satin and you think gloss is 'easier to keep fingerprints off' and I own gloss and call it a 'fingerprint magnet'. The grass is always greener . . . ;-) The problem I have with gloss is it must be immaculate (dust- and fingerprint-free) to look good. Satin seems to hide things better. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: D. MacDuff
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:35:04 (EDT)
Email Address: grandmind@mindspring.com

Message:
I agree on the satin finish being less difficult to maintain. The kind of varnish used on the soundboard of the piano would effect tone, would it not?

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: John D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:03:30 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I now have a polyester ebony satin piano but used to have a polyester ebony high-gloss piano. Regarding dust, I think they are both equally as difficult to keep looking good. The high-gloss accentuates the dust, but the satin seems to get some kind of a static charge and dust is drawn to it like a magnet. As far as finger-prints go, I find it is much harder to get them out of the satin finish, but they do show up much more on the high-gloss. I, admittidly a clean freak, insist that before playing the piano everyone must wash their hands - this at least minimizes the finger-print problem. Later, John D.

Subject: Re: Piano Finishes
From: BEN
To: John D.
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:36:53 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
maybe satin=polished is easier to mantain.. but it looks dull compared to a high glossed finfish piano right??

Subject: Shiedmayer and/or Steingraber pianos
From: Joel
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 05:20:15 (EDT)
Email Address: drevetj@cicsun.univ-bpclermont.fr

Message:
I am loking for some infos on Schiedmayer or/and Steingraber pianos. Is there anyone out there who can tell me the history of these labels. What are they worth and how good they were (especially for grand and baby grand that were built before world war 2)? Thank you

Subject: Lindsay Baby Grand
From: Sil Orlando
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 19:22:08 (EDT)
Email Address: silorlando@yahoo.com

Message:
I have a Lindsay Baby Grand manafactured in Montreal Canada circa 1936. My mother is the original owner. I'd like to know what it might be worth. Please e-mail me at silorlando@yahoo.com Thanks

Subject: Re: Lindsay Baby Grand
From: Cork
To: Sil Orlando
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:35:17 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.

Subject: petrof-vs yamaha
From: jim
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:05:06 (EDT)
Email Address: olaible@aol.com

Message:
interested in buying a new piano. wife plays on a yamaha for years now wants a baby grand.thought we were buying a yamaha but petrof came into her life. is it really worth the extra dollars. she like the sound,however are you really getting your moneys worth with petrof.is it really a steinway for half the price??? whats your opinion.

Subject: Re: petrof-vs yamaha
From: Cork
To: jim
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:11:27 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Briefly, the tiny Yamaha grands are constructed to compete with the less expensive Korean imports. They are not of the same quality as the Conservatory series instruments, particularly the C3 and up. The small Petrof is built to the same standards as the larger 5'8' and 6'4' models, and is a fine instrument for its size. It's tone style is dramatically different from any Yamaha. You must decide whether it is worth the difference in cost. Cork

Subject: Re: petrof-vs yamaha
From: JIM
To: Cork
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 12:18:45 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
THANK YOU FOR THE INFO JIM

Subject: Re: petrof-vs yamaha
From: Cork
To: jim
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:11:20 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Briefly, the tiny Yamaha grands are constructed to compete with the less expensive Korean imports. They are not of the same quality as the Conservatory series instruments, particularly the C3 and up. The small Petrof is built to the same standards as the larger 5'8' and 6'4' models, and is a fine instrument for its size. It's tone style is dramatically different from any Yamaha. You must decide whether it is worth the difference in cost. Cork

Subject: Re: petrof-vs yamaha
From: Paul
To: Cork
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:22:02 (EDT)
Email Address: pabaquin@mindspring.com

Message:
Cork, Jim, Pardon the intrusion, but I'm just curious as to the price of the Petrof. I live in Texas and I know for a fact there is a dealership in the Dallas area. From reading this forum, I have gathered a wealth of valuable information. Petrof has been mentioned a lot (aside from the Steinway of course) and I'm interested in getting one for my daughter. Of course, I would let her try the piano first before deciding. Thanks for the info. Paul A.

Subject: Re: petrof-vs yamaha
From: Cork
To: Paul
Date Posted: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:30:18 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Paul, The Dallas dealer is quality-oriented, so do not expect deep discount pricing. My guess is you'd pay in the $13.5 range, but it's just a guess. Cork

Subject: Radial-back Yamaha uprights
From: Joy
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 22:24:30 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Is anyone familiar with this line of Yamahas? I'm told this is a taller upright with an 'X' structure on the back, usually available only in Japan, with an unusually warm tone. Comments?

Subject: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Jason
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 21:18:07 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have a small problem; I have a choice of learning one last piano concerto right now, and I can't decide which one to choose. I can only learn one more, and this will be my last piece I will learn for a very long time because I am a high school senior right now and about to go to college. In college I don't plan on doing much piano at all. Could someone please help me make a decision? I have considered either the Grieg, Schumann, or Rachmaninoff Second, but if anybody has other suggestions, I'm willing to listen. Like I said, this will be the last piano piece I will learn in a very long time, so I want to make this count. I want a piano concerto that's not only difficult (conquering a difficult piece makes me, and most other people, feel more on top of the world) but rewarding as well. (By rewarding I mean that I would not be disappointed with the concerto at all.) So could somebody please help me? I would appreciate it.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Suchismit Chakravorty
To: Jason
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 16:52:27 (EDT)
Email Address: suchismit@hotmail.com

Message:
Ok, if you want to learn a concerto then I would recommend one of my favorites - No. 21 in C Major, K467, I have been listening to this Mozart concerto for 15 years now and I love it more each time I hear it, especially the first movement ( allegro maestoso). If you are ambitious enough to consider the Rachmaninoff, then you might even consider Beethoven's 'kaiser' ( Emperor). And if you are not too adamant about learning a concerto only, then you can also try what I personally consider the greatest music yet written for the piano, Beethoven's 'Appassionata' ( Nr 23 in F Minor) But then , it will be in YOUR repertoire, so its upto you.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Charlie
To: Jason
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 20:52:46 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
If your skills are such that you can learn a piano concerto, I suggest your approach is wrong. I strongly encourage you to include piano studies at college. On the theatre organ scene, an extremely talented young artist (Jelani Eddington) just graduated Yale law school. He performed professionally all the way through college.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Mat D.
To: Jason
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:45:05 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Jason, I hope you are pulling our collective 'leg' here. You don't need help picking a concerto, you need help protecting your apparent God-given talent. Track vs. Piano (at the level of Rachmaninov Concertos)--You probably are pulling our leg. Good luck on the track team.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Joy
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 19:39:12 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Jason, I hope you are pulling our collective 'leg' here. You don't need help picking a concerto, you need help protecting your apparent God-given talent. Track vs. Piano (at the level of Rachmaninov Concertos)--You probably are pulling our leg. Good luck on the track team.
---
You don't have to totally drop one to do the other. The original Greek Olympians wouldn't have. With all due respect, lighten up! On a less serious note, have you tried Joplin's 'Magnetic Rag'? I know it's not a concerto. But it was Joplin's last piece before he croaked, but significant because it has a truly lovely melody line and gives a hint of new avenues he might've explored had he lived longer. I feel it was the best piece he ever wrote. The penultimate movement can be poignant if played right -- and NOT too fast. It's one of those pieces that feels good on your hands to play, and takes you all over the keyboard. My tall son does X-country, track AND piano, and feels they are inseparable. Good luck to you in college. Where are you going? No music dept there?

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Jason
To: Mat D.
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:47:50 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Well, maybe I was being slightly too ambitious with the Rachmaninoff Second. It may still be out of my reach, but I believe the Grieg and Schumann are easier. They may require work, but I doubt that they require God-given talent to play. Or do they?

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: David Burton
To: Jason
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:39:23 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Jason says, 'In college I don't plan on doing much piano at all.' Your question was which piano concerto to learn. It is to be your LAST one. Frankly, my dear young fellow, there aren't all that many people who ever have the chance to play ONE piano concerto owing to mostly their lack of time and occasionally their lack of talent. It seems to me that your being able to play even ONE piano concerto at your age places you in a unique and in some instances enviable category of talented young musicians. I could answer this question, give my opinion on a number of worthy piano concertos, but I must say I have a question for you; why is this to be your LAST piano concerto?

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Jason
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 12:49:47 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I didn't say it would be my last piano concerto ever. I said it would be my last I would probably learn in a long time. In college, I also plan on trying to earn straight As and joining the track team. That doesn't leave much room for piano. I might be able to find some time to continue piano, but I can't count on this. I love piano, but I figure that I could always start again during my free time after I graduate from college, but I also love track the same, and college will be the best opportunity for this. Therefore, I'm asking this question because this is THE LAST CONCERTO I WILL LEARN FOR NOW and I just want to make this last one count.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: David Burton
To: Jason
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:10:35 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Wow, thanks for making that clear. I wish you luck with your track career, don't break your hands, arms or elbows if you can help it. As for a concerto, why not Mozart's last one, his #27 or Beethoven's fourth? Of course you could tray one of Ravel's.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Eric
To: Jason
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 00:13:33 (EDT)
Email Address: swiech76@yahoo.com

Message:
Thats a hard one, my favorite is Chopin's first concerto, but liszt's first is also nice. Have you ever listened to Henselt concerto, it is one of the most difficult concertos to play. But if you wanted me to pick one, i would have to go with Chopin's first, my favorite.

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Andrew
To: Eric
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 19:33:22 (EDT)
Email Address: Andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
All the recommendations are excellent. Based on the four concerti you mentioned in your original note your technique should enable you to play the most difficult pieces. Have you thought of MacDowell No.2 or Scriabin's in F# minor? These can be refreshing for both yourself or your audience. Andrew

Subject: Re: Need people's opinions. Please respond. Thanks
From: Jason
To: Andrew
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:50:45 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Oh, please, I'm not THAT good; some pieces such as the Rachmaninoff Third, the Brahms Second Concerto, some of the Liszt Transcendental Etudes, or Charles Valentin Alkan's Opus 39 Etudes are still out of my reach. But the MacDowell or the Scriabin sounds interesting. Please tell me more about these pieces because I am totally unfamiliar with them.

Subject: new piano
From: mink
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:04:38 (EDT)
Email Address: ohmink@yahoo.com

Message:
hello all! just stumbled on this site. have been hunting for a piano for my child in the last two years but not been able to make any decision. i'm thinking of getting a reasonably priced piano, one that will last till grade 8... can anyone tell me if the pleyal piano from france is good, how about the petrof or bohemia from czechoslovakia?

Subject: Re: new piano
From: Cork
To: mink
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:33:23 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Get a copy of Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book'. Petrof's can be outstanding instruments, but tend to require more prep than other pianos in their price class. Haven't seen or played a Pleyel (are they still made in France?). As for Bohemia, depends on whether you are talking about the grands or the verticals . . . cv

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: David Burton
To: Cork
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 09:09:20 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Cork says, 'Haven't seen or played a Pleyel (are they still made in France?).' Yes, Pleyel is still alive and making pianos in France. I haven't seen or played one either. They have a dealer in Boston. They may have dealers in other cities as well. But I bet they're expensive. The French have no single sylable word in their language that means "cheap". For those who may not know, Pleyel was one of the first piano makers who made pianos with cast iron frames, they were the piano of choice for Chopin, they made Wanda Landowska's modern harpsichord, a weird beast that was nothing like the original instruments, but still it was a Pleyel. The founder of the company Ignaz Pleyel was quite a composer in his own right. Yeah, I expect they're expensive, but I imagine they're also quite good. The other French piano makers that aren't making pianos anymore as far as I know are Erard, which now concentrates on making harps and Gaveau which used to produce incredibly ornate art case pianos between the 1890's and the 1920's. A friend told me that he'd worked on an old, before the turn of the centruy, Erard grand that was still straight strung. It was incredibly long but he said it was also incredibly good. I gather that his customer had had it rebuilt. There's also a small piano company in the south of France that makes uprights but the name escapes me.

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: Niles Duncan
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:34:21 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
Just to correct a misconception that seems to be running through this thread, the current Pleyel piano other than country of origin and the name on the fallboard has no connection whatsoever with the historical Pleyel. The original family owned firm is long extinct. The current owners of Pleyel simply bought the name from the previous owners of the name to use on their new product. None of this has anything to do with the Pleyel piano favored by Chopin during the 19th Century. The preceding comments should not in any way be taken to reflect unfavorably on the current Pleyel piano which from what I've seen is a piece of quality work.

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: mink
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 13:22:57 (EDT)
Email Address: ohmink@yahoo.com

Message:
hi, for everyone following this thread, i've stumbled on the pleyel website -- http://www.pleyel.fr/uk/main.htm it gives the historical background, tradition and a map of distribution areas for this make. i'm still pondering whether to buy this piano, as mr cork has informed me that since i live in the tropics (asia, to be precise) and it'd be better for me to get a yamaha or kawaii rather than a european make. but then, the japanese and korean pianoes are made in countries with four brrr seasons too! yes, it is hot and humid in my country and no, i don't run the air-con all day long. now i'm wondering if i should invest in a better-grade piano like the pleyel, or be content with one of the cheaper makes. please advise, someone :-)

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: BEN
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 01:37:43 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
pleyel pianos are damn expensive.. a studio console can cost at least $8000!! never tried one of the pia nos b'forde

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: mink
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 12:27:36 (EDT)
Email Address: ohmink@yahoo.com

Message:
Cork says, 'Haven't seen or played a Pleyel (are they still made in France?).' Yes, Pleyel is still alive and making pianos in France. I haven't seen or played one either. They have a dealer in Boston. They may have dealers in other cities as well. But I bet they're expensive. The French have no single sylable word in their language that means "cheap". For those who may not know, Pleyel was one of the first piano makers who made pianos with cast iron frames, they were the piano of choice for Chopin, they made Wanda Landowska's modern harpsichord, a weird beast that was nothing like the original instruments, but still it was a Pleyel. The founder of the company Ignaz Pleyel was quite a composer in his own right. Yeah, I expect they're expensive, but I imagine they're also quite good. The other French piano makers that aren't making pianos anymore as far as I know are Erard, which now concentrates on making harps and Gaveau which used to produce incredibly ornate art case pianos between the 1890's and the 1920's. A friend told me that he'd worked on an old, before the turn of the centruy, Erard grand that was still straight strung. It was incredibly long but he said it was also incredibly good. I gather that his customer had had it rebuilt. There's also a small piano company in the south of France that makes uprights but the name escapes me.
---
hello, thank you very much for your response! in fact, pleyel has a website http://www.pleyel.fr/uk/main.htm which gives information on its tradition, history and distribution areas etc. and yes, i believe it is expensive (i'm looking at the upright), but the sound is rich and has a very good throw (if that is the right word). having said that, i wonder if the pleyel is built to last for at least 10-15 years as i'd rather buy a higher-priced piano that can cater to a more advanced player eventually, than a cheap one and then have to change to a better piano later. i'm from asia, and i wish there is someone who has tried both the pleyel and petrof and can therefore advise me on which is the better buy in the long term :-)

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: David Burton
To: mink
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:33:10 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Mink comments, 'i wonder if the pleyel is built to last for at least 10-15 years as i'd rather buy a higher-priced piano that can cater to a more advanced player eventually, than a cheap one and then have to change to a better piano later.' Dear me, I'd sure like to think that when I punk down good money for a new piano, or even a rebuilt one, which should by the PTG standards perform like a new piano, that I am getting an instrument that will hold up for at least 15 years. Most really good pianos have a tuning stability life of 60 years if they aren't subjected to brutal conditions and are tuned regularly. I'm fairly certain that Pleyel is made up to a standard not down to a price, and while I'm more familiar with the Petrofs, I know that they do require even some minor repair work by a good tech as they settle into their new environment, I'm not sure that you would have less of this with a Pleyel but I'd expect that you'd be buying close to Steinway quality here, after all Pleyel is a very very old name in piano making, older than Steinway, and Pleyels are still being made in France where it started. By all reason they'd have to have retained quality or they'd have gone under by now, even if as I suspect they are getting lavish government subsidies. In any case, while the applause for Petrof from Andrew and others is justified, I wouldn't let that rule out your deciding to get a Pleyel instead. I'm not sure because I haven't played one yet that I might prefer the Pleyel myself. Pleyel was after all the piano maker preferred by Chopin.

Subject: Re: new French piano
From: Andrew
To: mink
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 19:55:08 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Hi mink, since you mentioned Petrof I would say go for Petrof. I'm not familiar with Pleyel (modern). Petrof is definitely a piano worth every penny you pay for it. It is well made for the price. It has provided main service for the Russian pianists before the iron-curtain folded. With good Steinway pianos in short supply, many Russian pianists were trained on Petrofs. The likes of Richter, Gilels, Merzhanov, Manilin, Vlasenko, Sofronitsky, Grinberg, Bashkirov, etc. The list goes on and on. We all know the Russian's famous big sound and golden tone. That probably explains why today's new Petrofs tend to have heavy and stiff touch which is sometimes good for developing finger strength but almost impossible for young starters. Anyway, what I try to say here is that Petrof will be a good buy by all means. When Master technician Franz Mohr readied 4 Steinway concert grands for Artur Rubinstein for an upcoming recital Mr Mohr was surprised that the Maestro said the first one he tried on is the one for his recital. When Mr. Mohr asked him to try the others the Maestro replied: 'I'm happy with this one. I do not need any other.' This may not be of any help in your situations. Just figure this will be some food for thought. Andrew

Subject: Re: new piano
From: Andrew
To: mink
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:31:07 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@den.galileo.com

Message:
The answers are in place already. All you need to do is browse thru some of the threads. The titles should be indicative enough. David and Cork and a few others have been exceedingly helpful in the area you're interested in. Good luck to your piano hunting!

Subject: Anyone heard of Kawai BS-2N?
From: StephenP
To: All
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 09:32:48 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I have finally read Larry Fine s book and it is truly a wonder! I am continuing to look for a nice upright and am constantly tempted by the huge availability of used Kawais and Yamahas (usually U1s). I like these a bit but would prefer something with better tone. They are reputedly reliable purchases, particularly the Yamaha, but they are also quite expensive for this reason and because dealers where I live seem to enjoy an innocent clientele. One Kawai is particularly tempting in that it sounds nicer to me than its Japanese peers: it s a Kawai BS-2N. Dealer says it is one of a number of factory demonstrators which they have sold. My question is whether this is a model more akin to a CX-21 or an NS20A, the latter apparently being a safer buy. Does anyone know this model BS-2N? The price is £3,300 (about US$4,600). I ask because, new Fine-imparted knowledge aside, the dealer is intolerant of independent technicians and rather slick in salesmanship. This is apparently because of hostile relationships between competing dealers, most of whom are allegedly associated with independent technicians (sic) of one sort or another. I discovered this little foible of the dealer's when, humming and hawing about the Kawai which had recently arrived in but wasn t tuned perfectly, the salesman pointed out another recent arrival: a 1904 over-damped, upright Bluthner. It sounded okay as it stood but had obviously not been touched/ cleaned - or anything else - since being acquired. Price was about £3,500, or more by the time it would be polished, probably aboout £3,750. POLISHED! I asked about the condition of soundboard, pinblock etc, just for starters. 'We wouldn' t buy it if anything like that was wrong' said the salesman, and he may be right... but I would have very reasonable questions to ask about any 96-year-old upright, even if it were a good one. Anyway, the salesman refused to countenance the idea of an independent technician ('They'll be hostile, we have our own technicians and they're great...') so I left the shop. I'm still wondering about that fairly nice Kawai BS-2N. Alternative is to travel a long way to inspect other old pianos or face up to the rather intense Petrof dealer and sample individual new 115 Petrof or 125/126 Weinbach models, with a friendly tech on hand as soon as I can find one. I think that last route may be the one: New 115 Petrof is £2,800 and 125 Weinbach is £3,600. Until then, I have to content myself with Alfred Brendel, Kenny Barron and the others. Thank God for modern miracles like recorded music. StephenP

Subject: another request for purch info
From: carolyn
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 00:27:12 (EDT)
Email Address: schafer@theramp.net

Message:
We currently have a Samick console that our daughter (14) has played on for 10 years. We would like to find a stepped up quality and had been considering a babygrand but after reading the posts here, I'm guessing that is probably not the best next step. Would an upright be enough better that it would be worth buying a new piano...or is the next logical step a grand; we do have the room but of course at some point price becomes an issue. Thanks for your time.

Subject: Re: another request for purch info
From: David Burton
To: carolyn
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 04:17:42 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Well Carolyn, first whether it's a grand or an upright, yes there are better pianos out there than what your daughter is currently playing which may be either uprights or grands. When most of us here on this forum comment on a 'baby grand' we're referring to grand pianos that are less than 5' 7' in length, mostly in the range between the under 5' through about 5' 3'. It's amazing how many of these pianos are sold to people who would have been better served by buying a larger grand or a better upright piano. Of course larger grands cost more money but they are usually better made than the baby grands. Of course space is an issue which is why there are a large number of 'studio' upright pianos out there which attempt to compensate for space while offering aspiring pianists better actions than can be jammed into the limited space of a short console or spinet. Basically in an upright you want a 'single blow' action. You can buy a good upright piano for under $5,000. You can also spend three times this much for an upright. The prices for grand pianos should be compared based on length. Here prices are rarely below $10,000 and can get stratospheric. Concerning uprights, everyone seems to have their preference for touch and tone. You will see on this board a lot of people like Petrof and its other brand Weinbach, but there are quite a few who like Yamaha and Kawai. Some like other brands. What you're going to have to do is to take your daughter around to various piano stores, have her play a lot of pianos. Find out what inspires her. You probably want to set some upward limit on how much you want to spend and hopefully you'll find a store that will offer you something for your Samick console in trade. Everyone seems overly concerned with the investment value of a piano they buy for themselves or their children regardless of the fact that the value of a musical instrument chiefly resides in the music and enrichment that comes out of it over the time you own it. Therefore I have made the point many times on this forum that very few people can appreciate the additional cost of a piano that may be thousands of dollars more than they might even be able to afford and that therefore they ought to take seriously the cheaper alternatives out there including the vast used piano market. This can get really interesting as you are likely to find everything from dogs to diamonds. First visit all the new piano dealers you can and try out their pianos, talk to them about prices, financing and exchange of your existing piano. Then look in your local paper and check out any ads for used pianos. Check out ads right here at The Piano Exchange or other such places on the internet with an eye to locations close to you. You never know, you might find a used piano that is better than anything you've tried in the new piano stores for significantly less money. Of course that will leave you with your Samick to sell, but that's part of the entrepreneurial spirit of this market. It can be a very worthwhile and fun adventure. Oh, one last and very important point. While you're still looking for pianos at the new piano dealers, contact a piano technician close by where you live. Have he or she (yes increasingly there are women getting into this business and many more should consider getting into it IMHO) check out any piano you are seriously considering especially if it's a used piano but even new pianos should be given a tech's once over. Hope this helps, good luck.

Subject: Re: another request for purch info
From: Joy
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:05:09 (EDT)
Email Address: Joychudes@aol.com

Message:
'but even new pianos should be given a tech's once over. ' Really? Even NEW pianos at the showroom floor??

Subject: Re: another request for purch info
From: Andrew
To: Joy
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 06:36:41 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Joy, whoever said this did all of us a great service. It's every bit true, especially when you're looking at grands. For Yamah or Kawai uprights you can expect greater degree of uniformity in quality and sound of the instruments hence, less dependancy on tech's verification. Andrew

Subject: Re: another request for purch info
From: Ben
To: carolyn
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 01:50:34 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
maybe a baby grand is better..but in terms of sound and tone,,a top line upright would be better. read the pos t on 'squezzing grand piano into corner' u might want to read cork's post.. gd luck

Subject: used pianos
From: Liz
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 18:46:19 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I am interested in purchasing a used upright piano that will hold its value. I played for 5 years during my teens, but abandoned my passion for the last 15 years. Looking forward to playing again. Have $2,000 to spend, but need advice re: brand names. Liz

Subject: Re: used pianos
From: Niles Duncan
To: Liz
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:46:05 (EDT)
Email Address: NSDuncan@aol.com

Message:
I am interested in purchasing a used upright piano that will hold its value. I played for 5 years during my teens, but abandoned my passion for the last 15 years. Looking forward to playing again. Have $2,000 to spend, but need advice re: brand names. Liz
---
With only two thousand dollars to spend I'd not be too concerned about brand names. Be more concerned about the piano being in good condition and something that you like the sound and feel of than what brand it is. And don't forget the often repeated advice, don't write the check without having a technician examine and give you an evaluation of the piano you are considering buying.

Subject: Re: used pianos
From: Andrew
To: Niles Duncan
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 06:24:47 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
Hi Niles, In the used piano market you can never tell what the magician is going to pull out his hat next. What I mean to say is that with 2 grand you can get a piano of your dreams. (sometimes you might be lucky enough to get one that is surpassing your dreams.) On the other hand, with someone who is not careful or knowledgeable enough, one can get a lemon. A great myriad of things can be so unpredictable in the used market. Probably that's why it made the piano hunting process so interesting and rewarding. Of course everything can go the other way that make people so frustrated they finally give up on hunting in the used market. I personally almost always encourage people to try the used market because that's where real bargain can be found. Back in 1986, after months upon months searching and playing on used pianos for sale, I happened upon a COMPLETELY rebuild Premier Grand made at the turn of the century. I was 'hooked' the first time I played on it. The finish was in show room condition. It was the first finished product by two young men just starting their own piano rebuilding business. To make the long story short, I negotiated the price down to $1700 including the music stool (new) and moving. The touch and sound amazed more than a few concert pianists. When I moved out of state, one lady offered big bucks for it. Second example, in 1995, I noticed a rebuilt Steinway M for sale. When I tried it in the technician's basement I knew I had my dream piano. I negotiated the price down to a relatively manageable $9500. The rebuilt job was superb and the result was stunning. Just browse through the Steinways for sale on this site you will know what a good price I got for myself. The tone of this M beats ALL the Ls that I have played. With your $2000, it's possible that you can get a more than decent piano. You need patience, knowledge and bit of luck. Wish you the best with your search. Read Larry Fines 'The Piano Book'. I benefited tremendously from it. I would say my Steinway M is a direct result of learning from this excellent book. Andrew

Subject: Re: used pianos
From: David Burton
To: Liz
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:52:31 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Liz, if you only have only $2,000 to spend, you might look around for a good used Baldwin Acrosonic upright, not a console or spinet. Sometimes you can pick them up for as little as $1,200, more likely $1,800 for one that's not so beat up. You will need a piano tech to work it over, make minor repairs, etc, perhaps revoice it down a bit. What you'll get in the end is a good lively working piano that will hold it's value better than most others out there. You can occasionally find something good for $2,000 but you'll find more and better for a little more money. If you had $3,000-$4,000 I'd say look for a Schubert upright, an import from Russia, they are fantastic for the money, again requiring a bit of work from a tech. Of course you might explore the 'gray' market in Yamaha uprights in that range also. A step up from there might be the Petrof-Weinbach uprights that are usually a bit more money but also a bit more piano. Upright pianos can go for as much as $15,000 for the top of the line studios, all the way down to $1,500 for some really poor console ofr spinet out there.

Subject: Re: used pianos
From: Andrew
To: Liz
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 19:19:36 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
It probably will take you quite some time to browse through some of the threads here. Some extremely practical and useful information that pertains to your interest is spread out here and there. You'll find that the time you spent is well worthwhile. Good luck. Andrew

Subject: Yamaha Console 1988 for $3300?
From: Sam
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 22:13:48 (EDT)
Email Address: comsoft1999@hotmail.com

Message:
I am buying a piano for my 8 year old son who has been playing for 2 years. I found a used piano not too far from my home. It is in reasonable sahpe and the owner is asking $3300. Made in 1988 in Japan. Any one has experience with this piano. What should be a reasonable price for it? Thank you....

Subject: Re: Yamaha Console 1988 for $3300?
From: Bruce
To: Sam
Date Posted: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 00:19:49 (EDT)
Email Address: peano86381@aol.com

Message:
I work for a Yamaha dealership, and new Yamaha consoles can be had for around 3500, try the M450 TAO 44' verticle..Bruce

Subject: Suggestions..
From: Ben
To: All
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:53:13 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
why not start a chat room here for piano players?? it would be better than posting thimngs on the forum..it would also be easier as piano players can exchange comments abt songs and pianos over the chat room faster... if it's not possible to start a chat room,,why not open an IRC chatroom?? juz one of my suggestions.. hope it helps

Subject: Re: Suggestions..
From: David Burton
To: Ben
Date Posted: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:57:12 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
Ben, visit my website A Pianist's Diary at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ It doesn't have a chat room yet but it does have a message board. I encourage all pianists to check it out and post whatever messages they want on there.

Subject: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Lewis
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 06:20:49 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
juz asking whether i could squeeze a 5' grand into a very small corner with 2 walls exactly touching the sides of the grand piano i dun noe how to xplain but 'll try to xplain it laterz.. thanx alotz

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Charlie
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 22:51:52 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
juz asking whether i could squeeze a 5' grand into a very small corner with 2 walls exactly touching the sides of the grand piano i dun noe how to xplain but 'll try to xplain it laterz.. thanx alotz
---
I tried this with my 6' grand, and the bass got very boomy. You get an increase in bass frequencies at the corners of rooms, so you'd have to see how it sounds. On some pianos, it would probably help. If your piano is full toned, however, it might be too much. Try it. See if you like it.

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Lewis
To: Charlie
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:03:22 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
but i'm aiming to fit a very small grand: say a 5 footer into a small corner..the corner is juz like a square room without 2walls ( normally a room has 4 walls with the remaining 2 walls exactly touching thew side of the piano.. hopw u guys can understand... thanx alot

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: D. MacDuff
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 14:57:14 (EDT)
Email Address: grandmind@mindspring.com

Message:
You can get a paper or heavy plastic template of the 'footprint' of various piano lengths from a piano dealer (they probably won't give you one unless you're potentially buying from them). It is very difficult to tell anything without using one of these to try various placements. The way the lid opens is a consideration with this kind of placement.

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Lewis
To: D. MacDuff
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 06:05:46 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
another question:: is it possible to fit a 5'4 grand into a room the size of 13m sq>??leaving enough space to put a study desk?? hope u can help me... and if i fit it into a room,,does the sound get affected?? thanx alot.. ASAP

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Cork
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 09:50:38 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
13 sq meters is roughly 140 sq ft, nearly 12' X 12'. Certainly you should be able to put both a medium grand and a study desk in that room. Do not allow the instrument to 'touch' any wall; you want roughly 6' (15-16 cm) clearance from all walls minimum. If it fit, I'd place the piano diagonally across the corner, with the bass corner of the keyboard close to one of the two walls you mention and the tail close to the other wall. This will help minimize the effect on the bass. Finally, the size of the room does affect the sound; other factors will include placement, ceiling height, wall coverings, floor coverings, other furniture in the room, etc. But a room that size is perfectly adequate for any decent size grand. I assume you are a piano or music major, with a requirement for a grand action and a sostenuto pedal. You should consider buying a piano of around 5'8' (which should fit in this room as well) if you can afford it. Otherwise, if space is such a huge concern and you are not a music major, you might consider a large (tall as possible) upright. Cork

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Lewis
To: Cork
Date Posted: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 06:48:09 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
i was juz asking for u guys opinions: izzit more worth while to spend $ 12,000 on a 5'foot grand or a 52' uporigt/../?? i understand tat no matter wat,, a grand's action will definetly be more responsive than a upright.. can som em guys com,mend on this??

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Cork
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 09:15:19 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
If you are an advanced piano student and need the grand action/sostenuto pedal, you might find the generally disappointing tone of a small grand (5') an acceptable trade-off. If you are a casual player, the action of high quality uprights will be fine, and the tone of the instrument will be vastly superior to any 5' grand on the market.

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Peter
To: Cork
Date Posted: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 02:57:39 (EDT)
Email Address: peter@participation.com

Message:
If you are an advanced piano student and need the grand action/sostenuto pedal, you might find the generally disappointing tone of a small grand (5') an acceptable trade-off. If you are a casual player, the action of high quality uprights will be fine, and the tone of the instrument will be vastly superior to any 5' grand on the market.
---
Do you really feel that a new 5'3' or a 4' 11' new Yamaha Grand is does not provide more sound and rich sound than say a U-1 or U-3? Thanks for your thoughts. (I'm conisdering the new GH1B or GA1 from Yamaha). - Peter Bluhon

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Cork
To: Peter
Date Posted: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:26:18 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Peter, Frankly, my opinion of an instrument is not important. Only your opinion matters when you lay down the cash. Keep that in mind when reading the following, because it will be pretty harsh. In my opinion, I'd take a U3 over a GH1B any day of the week. Despite the rescaling of the GH1, the tenor/bass break remains problematical leading to some interesting challenges for the piano technician in both tuning and voicing. As I've said in other threads, the first 'real' Yamaha in their line-up is the C3, which is a fine piano. The lower level instruments are aimed at the Korean competition (GH1B through C2) and the decorator market (GA1). The U3, on the other hand, is a very good upright, and one I'd be proud to own. As for the GA1, I'd take a U3 OR a U1 before I bought a sub-5' grand. Again, take this with the proverbial grain of salt. At the end of the day, it is just one man's opinion. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: David Burton
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 19:33:52 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
The U3, on the other hand, is a very good upright, and one I'd be proud to own. Cork Thanks Cork, at one time this piano the Yamaha U3 was my pick for a good standard upright until I played and heard others, always thought it was better than the rest of Yamaha's line, still think it's pretty good even though I'm not really in the Asian camp when it comes to pianos.

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Peter Bluhon
To: Cork
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 12:45:34 (EDT)
Email Address: peter@participation.com

Message:
Cork: I read your posting on Piano Forum and I VERY much appreciate your thoughts. I went shopping again on Sunday and found several piano dealers and technicians (who are not solely Yamaha dealers) say exactly what you said. Also, I looked at the specs on string length and soundboard area and found the U3 to have longer strings and more soundboard than the GA1 and GBH1! I seen now I need not consider the baby grand. I stumbled upon a Petrof upright model 125 II on Sunday. Comparing a 29 yr old U3 (gray market used from Japan) and the new Petrof in the same store, I found the two to have awfully similar brightness and strength of tone. It was almost difficult to tell the two apart. Petrof new at about $5,500 and U3 at 29 yrs old at $4,500. I saw some posts on Petrof grands in the forum. I'd be interested to know what you know of the Petrof uprights. Is the P 125 II a viable, smart alternative if, for me, the sound was satisfying? Thanks for any words on this, Peter Bluhon Berkeley, CA

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: bobb
To: Peter Bluhon
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 02:11:51 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
It the 125 is really as bright as a yamaha it needs to be voiced way down - at least for those of us who like the mellow singing petrof sound. Is the 125 the 50' or the 52'? The latter is supposed to be excellent, but the one time I saw and heard one it was terribly bright, and rather light on top of it. (i.e. had the typical German 'fundamental dominated' sound, not characteristic of Petrof grands or other uprights). The dealer didn't want to voice it before he sold it - it might have turned out very nice, but I never had a chance to find out. I had a 50' and didn't love it, but again it might not have been serviced sufficiently. ( When I complained the dealer said, perhaps correctly, that I wanted more than an upright could offer, and gave me a good price on a big old grand. But I have never been quite sure whether the large Petrof probably prepared might have made me happy).

Subject: Re: Squezzing grand piano into corner
From: Lewis
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 05:08:06 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
thanz alot.. but i heard that the grand piano has an action 2 times more responsive than an upright is this true?

Subject: Re: Grand action vs. Upright action
From: Cork
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 09:37:50 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Even comparing similar quality instruments (which you are not with a 5' grand and a large upright), that is an overstatement. There are three distinct advantages to the action mechanism of a quality grand. For some pianists, the most important of these is the advantage of repetition speed; that is, a good pianist can play the same note more rapidly several times in a row. This advantage is the result (primarily) of gravity's help in pulling the hammer back and the complex repetition mechanism of the grand action. Of course, only a small fraction of the people who play piano in the world can challenge the key repetition of an upright, so for the vast majority of buyers this is unlikely to ever be an issue. For a concert-level pianist, it is. Second, most uprights have a 'soft' pedal that operates by moving the hammers closer to the strings, thus resulting in less travel and lower volume. This method of lowering the volume unloads the action to some extent, subtly changing the feel of the action (lightening it). The quality of the tone remains the same, but the volume is lower. Quality grands have a 'una corda' pedal that operates by moving the entire keyboard and action slightly to the right, forcing the hammers to strike only two of the three strings in a trichord and to strike other notes at an offset. This results in both lower volume and a different tone, characteristics that can be employed by the pianist to 'color' the music. Finally, quality grands have a sostenuto mechanism that enables the pianist to sustain a single note or group of notes while playing other parts in a normal manner. The 'sustain' (or 'loud') pedal on both a grand and upright lift the dampers from all the strings; the sostenuto pedal prevents the dampers of those notes being played at the moment it is depressed from returning to the strings while not affecting unplayed notes. This is useful in some late Romantic music (and even some Gershwin), but is not generally a huge loss if not present. Most people with grands haven't a clue what the middle pedal does or how and when to use it. Set against those positives for a small grand, the upright alternative offers these advantages: vastly superior tone, higher quality construction (at an equvalent price), and smaller space requirements. So for US$8,000 you can get a bottom-of-the-line, cheaply made grand that will look nice in your house, or a nearly top-of-the-line, tall, high-quality upright that will outperform the furniture grand in nearly every respect. To be blunt: virtually every 5' grand makes a much better room decoration than it does a musical instrument. The exceptions are extremely costly. Rgds, Cork

Subject: What about the RX1?
From: Steve Tannehill
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 19:18:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Stannehi@ix.netcom.com

Message:
Appreciate all your thoughts. What about the RX1, Kawai's 5' 5' baby grand. Lots of claims of high quality with that piano. Do you think it is superior to a quality upright?

Subject: Re: What about the RX1?
From: Ben
To: Steve Tannehill
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:47:33 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
it is definetly better then other yamaha grands..the rx-1 is one of the best baby grands i have played..their touch is reponsive n the special features are great: the neotex key,, sloww fsall board,, n many others..try checking out the kawai KF-1,it is also 5'5 and the sound is abt the same as a grand 6'..aalthough quality wise,,the rx- 1 is better..but i would think a KF-1 would do juz fine..

Subject: Re: Grand action vs. Upright action
From: bobb
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 19:49:13 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
Cork, do you really feel that way about the Petrof 5'3'? I thought it sounded awfully good over the little time I played it and heard others play it.

Subject: Re: Grand action vs. Upright action
From: Charlie
To: bobb
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 20:47:59 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
Cork, do you really feel that way about the Petrof 5'3'? I thought it sounded awfully good over the little time I played it and heard others play it.
---
IMHO, though I'm not Cork. The Petrof 5'3' isn't an $8,000 piano. It is one of the costlier exceptions Cork alludes to.

Subject: Re: Grand action vs. Upright action
From: bobb
To: Charlie
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 23, 1999 at 22:49:57 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
Not overwhelmingly expensive - you can get it for 12 if you search and bargain really well. What is IMHO?

Subject: Re:Piano study at UMich
From: Joy
To: bobb
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 14:36:36 (EDT)
Email Address: Joychudes@aol.com

Message:
Bobb, I noticed your email address. Are you at the Ann Arbor campus of University of Michigan? Or a different location? Perhaps you can tell me a little about the music department there on behalf of my son, a high school junior who wants to major in physics while taking serious music classes. We've investigating potential colleges with good physics AND music departments. He's a Bach fanatic on the piano. Would UMich be a good place to look into? Just so you know, other schools he's considering are Berkeley, Northwestern and Oberlin. Yale, too. He may take on a 5-year/double degree program. Thanks for your past feedback on piano matters. Sorry to interrupt the thread of thought on the 'Grand Action vs. Upright' remarks, which have been GREAT here, incidentally. I tried to email bobb, but it gets returned marked 'unknown'. If anyone else wants to put in their 2 cents, feel free!

Subject: Re: Re:Piano study at UMich
From: bobb
To: Joy
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 21:20:08 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
Joy, I'll e-mail you privately w. what I know. I am in Ann Arbor. It's been a long time since I have had much to do with the music school; I know the liberal arts college better because I teach there. Give me a couple of days to respond. Best,Bob

Subject: Re: Re:Piano study at UMich
From: Joy
To: bobb
Date Posted: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 13:50:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Joychudes@aol.com

Message:
Thanks. Looking forward to the feedback!

Subject: Re: Petrof V
From: Cork
To: bobb
Date Posted: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 14:25:44 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Not overwhelmingly expensive - you can get it for 12 if you search and bargain really well. What is IMHO?
---
Bobb, First, IMHO is Internet shorthand for 'in my humble opinion'. (The first one I asked about was ROFLMAO; since this is a family site I'll just give you the first few words and let you fill in the rest: rolling on the floor laughing . . . ) Like you I have been surprised and pleased at the quality of the Petrof Model V, and if I were extraordinarily space-constrained I would be happy to have one in my flat. However, because it is made just like the Models IV and III, it is nearly the same price as a Model IV. Given the choice of V for $XX or IV for $XX+ $1,000, why get the V? Virtually any room that can hold the V can hold the IV . . . Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: Petrof V
From: jim
To: Cork
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:10:11 (EDT)
Email Address: olaible@aol.com

Message:
where can you buy a petrof v or 12 the best price i could find over the internet was 16. do you think its worth even 12 over a yahama at 9. petrof seems to be reclusive . can not find any reviews on its performance

Subject: Re: Petrof V
From: Cork
To: jim
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:14:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Before you spend a dime on a piano, buy a book by Larry Fine called 'The Piano Book'. Memorize it. Read between the lines. Then, have your wife go shopping for 3 to 6 months playing as many instruments as she can before you buy a piano. Cork

Subject: Re: Petrof V
From: Joy
To: jim
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 04:40:00 (EDT)
Email Address: Joychudes@aol.com

Message:
where can you buy a petrof v or 12 the best price i could find over the internet was 16. do you think its worth even 12 over a yahama at 9. petrof seems to be reclusive . can not find any reviews on its performance
---
You'll learn a lot if you read the ENTIRE message list and read all the Petrof postings. There are many here. My piano technician recommends Petrof over Asian pianos in general, and he's a Steinway fan. My son can't stand the sound of Yamahas anymore, they sound too 'bright' and metallic to him compared to the warm tones of the Petrof. Incidentally, I met someone who found a 18-year-old Petrof grand for 12K (half the price of a new one), and she's thrilled. Her previous piano for a year was a Petrof 50' upright. Before Petrof entered her life, she was a Kawai fan - never again, she says!

Subject: Re: Petrof V
From: JIM
To: Joy
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 12:15:54 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
THANK YOU BOTH FOR YOUR ADVICE. JIM

Subject: Re: Grand action vs. Upright action
From: Lewis
To: bobb
Date Posted: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 05:25:44 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Wat about a yamaha GP1 grand?? it is 5'3 n it sounded great when i tested it.. the 5' grand i was toking abt refers to KAWAI'S new GM2 .. i liked the responsive touch though the sound was not that great.;.but bear in mind that i'll be putting the piano in a small room..,so if i'm right,, the sound produced might not be a great difference between a 5' n an upright..

Subject: Re: Bravo Cork
From: Rob S.
To: Lewis
Date Posted: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 10:21:04 (EDT)
Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com

Message:
Cork, Your explanation on the differences between (most) small grands and equivalent (high end) uprights was brilliant. I enjoy this forum quite a bit, and have learned much from its posts, but yours was the best I've read here. Thanks! Best - Rob S.

Subject: Re: Bravo Cork
From: Cork
To: Rob S.
Date Posted: Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 14:32:42 (EDT)
Email Address: cvdh@my-deja.com

Message:
Thanks, Rob! But please, not too much praise or I might get a big(ger) head. Are you in London, by the way? (One of my favorite cities in the world.) Interesting e-mail address. I stay very near the Arch on my visits. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Samick vs. Kawai
From: Jay Milender
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:55:31 (EDT)
Email Address: jmilender@prodigy.net

Message:
Okay, here's a conundrum. We would like to buy a baby grand but are on a limited budget and would need to finance it. This limits us to buying new. I can buy a new 5'3' Hallet & Davis (Samick?) for $7000 or a 5' Kawai GM-2A for $8200. This piano is for starting my son and daughter on lessons. My wife and I took a few years of lessons as kids but don't really play. If my kids don't take to the lessons it won't be a total loss as my wife would also like to learn and we need the furniture in our living room anyway (just trying to be honest)! I'm leaning towards the Kawai but my wife likes the Hallet & Davis because it is bigger and available in a mahogany finish. What should we do? Thanks, Jay Milender

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai
From: Cork
To: Jay Milender
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:24:34 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Buy Larry Fine's 'The Piano Book', read it thru several times, shop and PLAY all the pianos you can for 3-6 months, then make your decision. (And don't buy any of these stunted grands . . . )

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai
From: Andrew
To: Cork
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 10:22:07 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@prodigy.net

Message:
I wholeheartedly ditto Cork's advise. That's exacly what I did about five years ago. The end result was that I became a happy owner of a superbly rebuilt 1924 Steinway M. Finally my patience paid off. Good luck with your pursuit. Andrew

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai
From: Blair
To: Jay Milender
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:27:06 (EDT)
Email Address: bscott@idirect.ca

Message:
Jay, It's obvious that you really would prefer the look of a grand Piano. Some of the other responses are steering you towards a good upright, which is good advice. Larger uprights have a little larger soundboard, and longer bass strings. This is why they tend to have a better sound than some of the 'Baby' grands. The tonal advantage of a grand really isn't evident until you get to at least 5'10'. My advice too you would be to find a little larger instrument, perhaps a 6-6'3' grand. The Kawai piano would probably have a better re-sale value if that is a consideration. Buying a piano that is a few years old may be an option for you, also, if you live near a Canadian border, consider that you could buy the same instrument in Canada and save some money in the exchange.

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai
From: Charlie
To: Jay Milender
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:42:12 (EDT)
Email Address: charlie_strack@sti.com

Message:
Buying a used instrument does not necessarily preclude financing. It would be easy to do through a dealer, and your bank might also loan you the money for a purchase from an individual.. Be sure to get a used piano checked out by an independent technician if you go this route. Check out Larry Fine's The Piano Book & supplement. If I remember, the smallest Kawai isn't built as well as their larger models, and a 5' to 5'3 inch is going to suffer in terms of the sound quality. In this price range, however, you can get an excellent upright. Good luck, Charlie

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai
From: ryan
To: Jay Milender
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:17:46 (EDT)
Email Address: ryan@xilinx.com

Message:
Are those your only two options? I wouldn't overlook some very good uprights in the same price range. Even if you opt for a baby grand, I would recommend giving some uprights a look to open up your options. Frankly, there are uprights in this price range that I feel are better than the baby grands in this price range. For example, I saw a Charles Walter upright in a very nice cabinet that sounded great and played great. The Charles Walter pianos have big actions and big keys to give them more of the feel of a grand which can make it a little easier to go back and forth if you have to. They seem to be scaled very nicely and have a nice tone, which I think may be better than the baby grands in the same price range. Granted, grand piano actions can be a little better for playing VERY advanced pieces, but I can play most music on an upright. Some exceptions are portions of Ravel's Gaspard and Mirior, a lot of Stravinsky's Three Movements from Petrouchka, and maybe a few others. I used to own a baby grand Wurlitzer many years ago. It was around 5' and was one of the last ones made in America. It was a gift, and was not the piano I wanted; I wanted a Steinway L, but that was out of the question:-) Anyway, I was always disappointed that some uprights that I encountered actually sounded and played better than my Wurlitzer. Just a thought... Ryan

Subject: Re: Samick vs. Kawai
From: Ben
To: ryan
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:59:24 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
try out the kawai KF-1..u can check it out at kawai's austrailia website..it sounded great when i played it n it sounded much like a 6]foot..the bass is powerful for the size of a 5'5 foot..if u want a better quality baby grand,,try the RX-1.. it really surpasses all m,y expectations of a baby grand.. good luck in ur search of pianos

Subject: Steinway K - 1924
From: Margot
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:40:51 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I recently bought an old Steinway K thru a dealer. I love the sound but it has a few action problems which the dealer, though a Steinway technician, has not been able to resolve satisfactorily. More experienced musicians/piano owners than I have said that the right technician can solve these problems - e.g., lost motion in a few keys, slow return in one key, etc. Can anyone advise me about finding a really competent and careful technician in the Western Mass - Northern Ct. Eastern NY area? Thanks!

Subject: Re: Steinway K - 1924
From: David Burton
To: Margot
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 14:25:59 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I recently bought an old Steinway K thru a dealer. I love the sound but it has a few action problems which the dealer, though a Steinway technician, has not been able to resolve satisfactorily. More experienced musicians/piano owners than I have said that the right technician can solve these problems - e.g., lost motion in a few keys, slow return in one key, etc. Can anyone advise me about finding a really competent and careful technician in the Western Mass - Northern Ct. Eastern NY area? Thanks!
---
Actually I surely can but you'll have to e-mail me off this forum.

Subject: Re: Steinway K - 1924
From: margot
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 09:40:45 (EDT)
Email Address: tedffz@aol.com

Message:
Thanks for your reply. Please email any information to above address, tedffz@aol.com. Thank you!!

Subject: Re: Steinway K - 1924
From: margot
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 09:37:57 (EDT)
Email Address: tedffz@aol.com

Message:

Subject: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos
From: Cork
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 23:09:09 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Here's a first (very rough) draft of language to cut and paste into messages requesting the value of a used instrument. No pride of authorship here; please be brutal in your editing suggestions. What other question is common enough to justify a standard response? 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'

Subject: Re: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos
From: Granholm Bros
To: Cork
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 21:32:28 (EDT)
Email Address: gbros@wanweb.net

Message:
Here's a first (very rough) draft of language to cut and paste into messages requesting the value of a used instrument. No pride of authorship here; please be brutal in your editing suggestions. What other question is common enough to justify a standard response? 'The evaluation of any used instrument cannot be performed over the Internet; it requires an on-site inspection by an experienced piano technician. In addition to determining the condition of the instrument, a local technician is likely to be aware of the market conditions in your local area that could affect the value of the piano.'
---
Cork Looks good to me. The other question we frequently get concerns whether or not a 1901 Whatever is worth restoring. Care to tackle that one? John

Subject: Re: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos
From: Cork
To: Granholm Bros
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 09:25:05 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
John, Would that language be substantially different from the above? I suppose we could add a preface about the large number of firms manufacturing pianos in the 1880 - 1920 period with the general quality being pretty decent . . . I'll think about that one, and may add to this later. Also, there's the person just beginning to look at new pianos, and the standard recommendation to buy Fine's book. That's one worth standardizing, I think. Rgds, Cork

Subject: Re: First Draft: Value of Used Pianos
From: Mat D.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:24:40 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Cork, you might want to include a list of piano manufacturers in order of desireability as a starting point. A perspective buyer would look at the list and know (at least generally speaking) that if his piano is at the bottom of the list, there is less chance of it being of as high a value as the one at the top of the list (everything else being equal). It would also tell him that a piano from 1900 at the top of the list might still be worth looking at, as opposed to a piano from 1900 at the bottom of the list; I'd look at a Steinway from 1900 before I would bother looking at an Apollo (if there is such a thing) from that same year! Good idea Cork, Mat D.

Subject: Re: First Draft: My 2¢...
From: Rob S.
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:32:55 (EDT)
Email Address: marblearchltd@yahoo.com

Message:
Cork, My 2¢... Give them an idea of where to find a qualified tech, (eg; yellow pages, dealer/teacher recommendation, etc.), and what to ask of a tech prior to hiring. As usual your consideration and service to others is exemplary! Best regards from New York, Rob S.

Subject: Re: First Draft: My 2¢...
From: Cork
To: Rob S.
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:29:46 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks all for the suggestions. I don't feel qualified to list all the better makes in order of preference; perhaps Mr. Granholm would. Certainly the list in 'The Piano Book' is a heck of a fine start. One amazing thing about pianos is that the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know . . . How to find a good technician: that could fill a book or two, couldn't it? I'll try to make a stab at it sometime. Thx for the idea.

Subject: A Pianist's Diary
From: David Burton
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 09:19:58 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have put up a new website to hopefully discuss the process of learning piano music, playing the piano and discussing pianos. I hope to be able to keep it up. I have also included a message board for starting threads on various subjects relating to classical music. It's at http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/ www.geocities.com/Vienna/Studio/5505/

Subject: Re: A Pianist's Diary
From: Cork
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:21:15 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Nice site, David. Congrats. cv

Subject: 1954 Baldwin
From: Johnny
To: All
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:52:22 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I'm going to take a look at a 1954 Baldwin this weekend. It is a 5'2' Artist grand and the starting price is $9650. It was owned by a technician throughout it's life and has been inspected but I'm afraid the price might be 50% more than it should because the technician did own it. Everything major such as the pinblock is in excellent shape. I have Larry Fine's piano book which has given me tons of info on what to look for in a used piano but there was no mention of Baldwin's quality during 1954. I would appreciate any comments on this deal. Am I better off going with a new 5'3" Yamaha for $9000 or will the quality of this other piano still be superior to the Yamaha even with it's age? I know the main issue is whether I like the sound and touch of it and whether it's in good shape or not but that aside I would like to get comments so I can have a little more knowledge when I go take a look at it. Just to get a check on some prices is $17,500 too much for the Artist model M and $10,000 for the Chickering 4'10" model 410? Thanks.

Subject: Re: 1954 Baldwin
From: Cork
To: Johnny
Date Posted: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:19:35 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Actually, you'd be better off with about any piano over 5'6' in size. Get a copy of 'The Piano Book' by Larry Fine. Shop for months. Make a decision. Don't look back. By the way, kudos for looking at used instruments. Cork.

Subject: Player Piano Trivia/History Question
From: Kathy
To: All
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:55:19 (EDT)
Email Address: kmyers@dayta.com

Message:
Who invented the player piano? was is Edward Leveaux of Sussex, England in 1881?

Subject: Re: Player Piano Trivia/History Question
From: D. MacDuff
To: Kathy
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 14:15:23 (EDT)
Email Address: grandmind@mindspring.com

Message:
See this website: http://www.pianoworld.com/christofori.htm

Subject: OOOPS ...
From: D. MacDuff
To: D. MacDuff
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:48:00 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I didn't read carefully enough -- you mean player piano, not who invented the first piano. A book I have says that it is impossible to precisely determine the first inventor of the player piano because there was such a maze of inventions and patents.

Subject: memorize or not?
From: kelly
To: All
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 09:48:06 (EDT)
Email Address: kgross@ycp.edu

Message:
Hi! I've 11 and i've been taking piano lessons for 6 years. My piano teacher says I have a real talent for playing and reading music and I really like to play. The problem is that alot of my friends take piano and are taught to memorize thair songs. My teacher does not want me to do so. She wants me to be able to read the music. It bothers me when my friends can sot down and play pieces from memory so well. Usually they may have the same pieces for several months. I usually have 5 0r 6 new pieces every 2-3weeks depending on the pieces. I'm not able to memorize them because I don't have them very long. Should I be learning to memorize pieces. My school music teacher said she was taught not to memorize as a child and it was much harder for her to memorize a piece when she got older. What do you think?

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: Almon
To: kelly
Date Posted: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:12:08 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Hi, knowing how to read music is the way to go. But also if you have the time try to memorize at lease one song. So when you play it you can really put your feeling in it. Make that your song and play it over and over again, with as much feeling as you can. That will show yourself and your friends that you read music and you memorize some of the songs you really like. Good Luck, And keep reading your music.

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: kelly
To: kelly
Date Posted: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:58:27 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Thanks for all your input. I spoke with my piano teacher today and she told me if I really wanted to memorize a piece I could do it. I would just have those pieces a little longer. She still wants me to concentrate more on reading music and I agree with her on that. I practice all my pieces usually five or six times a dayand I get new songs all the time. I am involved in alot of other activities too and have a lot of homework. Maybe if I had more free time I would be able to practice more. That is usually the case in the summer. Thanks again. Kelly

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: Mat D.
To: kelly
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 11:11:48 (EDT)
Email Address: antmaril@aol.com

Message:
Kelly, Here's an idea. If you decide to memorize, be sure to refer to the score often to check for accuracy. A more refined (best) way to do this is to record yourself regularly and check playback of you performance while reading the score. With this technique you will find out quite a lot about your memorization as well as your interpretation of the music; it's amazing how listening to a recording of your own performance brings many things to light
---
good & bad. BTW I think memorization is a good idea (as long as you follow the above advice) because with no music to look at, you are free totally focus on the 'music' in the music. Regards, Mat D.

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: Cork
To: kelly
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 10:48:58 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
You've received some interesting comments in these replies. I'm going to play devil's advocate just for fun. I'd say that the sheer volume of music you are moving through with your teacher is a big positive, since it is honing your sightreading skills as well as your technique. I agree with those who have said you should also be working for longer periods of time on a single piece to perfect both the technical reading and the interpretation, and that this would help you memorize those pieces. Frankly, I think a mix of what your teacher is presently doing plus some longer term projects would be the best bet of all. One thing you might do is to select one or two of the recent pieces you particularly like and tell the teacher you'd like to memorize them and perfect the technique/interpretation. That way you can spend part of your time exercising your reading ability (including sight reading) and part of the time working over a piece in depth. If your teacher is adamantly opposed to such a proposition, you might need to consider finding a new instructor. Keep in mind that no matter how skilled the teacher might be, no one is the best teacher for every person. Of course, you could focus on memorizing your favorites without the help of your instructor, but this is difficult since you'd have no one to point out the interpretation mistakes you might be making. Cork

Subject: Agree
From: ryan
To: Cork
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 12:21:06 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I neglected to mention in my post yesterday that memorization shouldn't be emphasized to the point that reading skills are neglected. I have seen people use memorization as a crutch for poor reading skills, myself included. About 4 years ago I decided to really focus on my reading skills by reading a lot of new music, and by putting off memorization. I have grown much more proficient in reading, and can now sit down and read new music pretty well. It's a lot of fun to be able to sit down and read something new and have it sound close to how it's supposed to. It also makes learning new pieces a lot easier.

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: David Burton
To: kelly
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 03:40:06 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
I have been asked many times over the years whether I am a professional musician. I have been a piano teacher in the past though I don't do it now, though I might take it up again within the next few months. Since I do not as yet belong to any union or other professional association I guess I am not one. In any event, I have been a pianist most of my life and I am responding to this thread based on what I perceived to be an incredible notion; that a piano teacher would deliberately hinder a student from attempting to memorize. As a performer, something I have done more occasionally than teach over the years, memorization is fundamental to any piece I will perform in public. In fact, I simply wont play a piece that I can't play from memory. I'll get back to describing just how I go about doing this in a moment. I have a twelve year old daughter who is not really a serious piano student yet but whom I have started out as her curiosity warrants. I started her off learning an arrangement of the song My Favorite Things that I came up with. I taught her how to play it and she can play it from memory. We are working on other songs as well and yes she is learning how to read. She is also playing the flute. Anyway when I determine that I want to memorize a piece the first thing I must do is learn it and learn it accurately, including fingering. As another thread suggested, I will often break a piece up into sections and play the sections over and over until I can play them evenly and accurately, then I'll put them together. If you don't care about memorizing then just keep reading everything through from beginning to end. But if you do that you'll never get to the meat of interpretation since you will be hindered as much by having to do so many things at once. If you have memorized a piece all you need do is sit down and play it. Since you wont be reading you can interpret as you play. Sometimes I'll play only one hand then the other and do it reading carefully and counting if necessary. I never use a metronome. Even if a piece is marked fast, I start very slowly and carefully. I can always speed it up later after I know where everything is supposed to be. Of course there are some pieces which can actually be played more easily at a faster tempo, like Chopin's first etude for instance which also requires a timed wrist and arm movement to carry the right hand naturally over the better than octave wide sequences. After thirty or forty reads it becomes possible to close the music and just play the piece, stumbling a bit first, more surely as one goes. In the process it is important, VERY important, to avoid making mistakes in the FIRST few readings of a new piece as mistakes placed in memory even early on are very had to break. Just because it sounds like it does not necessarily mean that's what the music says it is. If you would be really good you must be accurate. This careful attention from the outset is bound to pay off in dividends as time goes on. I learned how to play Brahms' Intermezzo Op. 117 #2 a while ago, learned the piece by memory, can play it anywhere at any time on any piano. I have played it through at least 150 times without the music. I tried many interpretations of it, exaggerations, restraint, etc. until I found what for me I wanted this complex piece, almost a mini sonata in one movement, to say. The awestruck admiration I have received on several occasions and places I have played this piece was worth the effort. Anything of this magnitude should require the level of concentration that basically says that you are allowing a piece of music to become part of you, something that you can reproduce in your own unique way. It becomes a great gift you can bestow on others.

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: bobb
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 15:59:54 (EDT)
Email Address: barsky@umich.edu

Message:
Rarely is chamber music played from memory. When Yehudi Menuhin played sonatas without the music, it seemed like an anomaly - almost something that shouldn't be happening. He was said to have had a photographic memory and couldn't help it. I never recall Stern or Oistrakh or the other great violinists playing sonatas without music - much less so the pianists they played with. (I must admit I never saw Heifetz in the flesh, but he didn't really regard chamber music as such anyway). It is almost unthinkable to imagine a string quartet playing from memory - though, historically there were a few that did (I think Joachim's, e.g. though I'm not sure). I am talking about top artists playing from the score music that they have had in their repertoire continuously for 30 or more years. Now certainly it is not simply too difficult to memorize chamber music, so that this is necessitated by practical considerations. There is some argument that somebody has to have the whole score in case a disaster occurs. But I think there must be a deeper reason that chamber music is played from memory. Paradoxically, I think it has to do with spontaneity. Although the previous messages all stress the notion that memorization provides freedom from the score and thus more freedom of interpretation, another way of looking at it is that memorized performances tend to be excessively polished and sterile. The most searching and creative piano playing that I have heard has often been chamber music played with the tattered old sheet music up on the stand.

Subject: Re: memorize or not?
From: ryan
To: bobb
Date Posted: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:35:36 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
This is an interesting topic. Why don't more chamber musicians play from memory? However, I totally disagree with your statement that 'memorized performances tend to be excessively polished and sterile'. In fact, I can't disagree strongly enough. I don't know if it necessary to mention that other types of ensemble music is played wthout score, such as jazz, pop, etc. I just don't believe that you can state that the presence or absence of musical score makes a performance polished and sterile. There are too many other factors, of which a big one is how the piece is practiced. Playing from memory exclusively can lead to that polished and sterile sound if you aren't careful. For myself, I have played a lot of chamber music especially in college, and for me it seemed like the score helped create a tighter ensemble. With the score you can see important reminders from the other instruments parts that can help prevent things like rushing through passages that are difficult for another member, drowning out another member, and train wrecks. On the other hand I have played piano concertos entirely from memory where the ensemble doesn't have to be quite as tight so there is a little more lattitude. A difference being that a concerto spotlights the soloist, where a chamber ensemble spotlights all (or none) of the players.

Subject: I'm curious as to opinions on this, also.
From: D. MacDuff
To: kelly
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 16:36:37 (EDT)
Email Address: grandmind@mindspring.com

Message:
When I was about your age, my teacher had me play a great number of pieces that I worked on for a short time without memorizing, as well as pieces for public recitals or competitions that I memorized. So, some teachers use a combination of both. Generally, there has been a lively debate among teachers about the merits of memorization, with many letters printed in CLAVIER magazine on this topic in recent years. Perhaps playing from memory is over-emphasized? What's among the most difficult things to play from memory? My vote would be the 2nd movement of the Bach ITALIAN CONCERTO.

Subject: One opinion..
From: Ryan
To: D. MacDuff
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 18:19:50 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
I emphasize playing from memory with all of my students from the start of lessons, even if they are beginners. Results have been a little mixed, some students memorize very well, while other students seem to have a lot of difficulty. In all cases the students that really struggle are also struggling with a lot of outside distractions and have generally lost their interest in playing. This happens frequently in the late teens. I started playing pieces from memory in recitals when I was 5, usually in sets of 3 and 4, so I memorize very easily. Even still, my late teen distractions caused me to quit playing the piano, however I could only stand if for a couple of months and had to start up again. There is another group of students who struggle with memorizing new pieces at first and believe they can't do it, but with lots of guidance and tons of encouragement they succeed virtually %100 of the time. It's awesome to see a studen't self confidence grow when they succeed in memorizing a piece they didn't think they could! With students who are strugging due to a lack of interest and too many outside distractions, they often fail at memorizing no matter how much encouragement and help you give. They will eventually quit, but that might not be a bad thing, and I don't believe in lightening up my demands in an effort to try to keep them. I don't think that's fair to the student and whoever is shelling out for lesson fees. Some positives about memorizing: It keeps students playing the piece longer than if they only had to learn how to read it. It also keeps them from getting totally bored with a piece after they can read it. Part of the memorization process is to analyze a piece carefully so that the expression and tempo markings can be memorized. As a result, students almost always learn to play it better, with better flow, accuracy, confidence, and expression. Also, certain very fast passages can only be played from memory. If you don't start memorizing early, you could eventually get to very difficult passages that have to be committed to muscle memory but not have any idea what to do. Also, playing from memory allows you to focus your eyes away from the page so you can see what your hands are doing when you need to. Also, for me, memorizing allows me to internalize and really feel a piece of music. I feel like I am actually creating music, instead of reproducing it off a page. Finally, a minor point, but one that has driven me to memorize music many times is that you don't have to worry about turning those darn pages when you have a piece memorized! Some negatives about memorizing: It can be demoralizing when you try and can't memorize a piece, whatever the reasons were for failure. Having a memory failure in public can be demoralizing as well, and requires some tact and lots of encouragement from the teacher. As I mentioned before, I memorize very well and am very confident of playing from memory in front of people. Even still, I have had some disastrous train wrecks in public. That's part of playing in public, and it's up to the teacher to help students through it. One way to help students is to not let them play music from memory that's too difficult for them, or that they obviously haven't truly learned yet. Sometimes you have to make some strategic 'performance cuts' in the music to enable them to skip the parts they can't play. Or, you could just let them play from the music. It's not *that* big of a deal. That's all I have on short notice:) Ryan

Subject: Re: One opinion..
From: Danika
To: Ryan
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 27, 1999 at 18:38:10 (EDT)
Email Address: Not Provided

Message:
Hi. I have only been playing for a few months. I mostly read the music, since I am a beginner, but I have memorized Bach's Minuet and love being able to sit down and just play it whenever I want. I think that there are pros and cons and you should do both. Read some pieces and try and memorize others that are your favourites. I play Minuet every day...usually a few times, actually. And that is how I memorized it! But I sometimes take the piece out, read it while playing to be sure I am doing everything right! :)

Subject: 1977 Steinway
From: Christi
To: All
Date Posted: Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 17:55:30 (EDT)
Email Address: bgcandclc@aol.com

Message:
We were told of a 1977, 5'10" Steinway, Model M by a piano technician that has serviced it for many years. A retired couple in their 70's own it. It has been played minimally by grown daughters that visit occasionally. The couple selling the piano do not play the piano. It has bascially been a "decoration". Not a scratch on it and plays beautifully. They are selling it for $20,000. Does anyone have any information on this particular Grand. It has a satin ebony finish. From what I have seen on the internet and from calling around, this is an excellent buy. Email me directly if you can.

Subject: Re: 1977 Steinway
From: Andrew
To: Christi
Date Posted: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 08:43:01 (EDT)
Email Address: andrew.gan@den.galileo.com

Message:
From what you stated this Steinway should be a Model L instead of M. Good luck to you with your piano. For all the Steinways that I have ever played, almost all of them need a seasoned tech to work on them with great care and attention before the real glory of a Steinway can be brought to surface. Believe it or not, this includes a lot of new ones. IMHO. Andrew

Subject: Re: 1977 Steinway
From: David Burton
To: Christi
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:10:19 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
It is a good buy. It's also probably a great piano. If you decide to get it, have your favorite tech keep it in tune and adjusted as Steinways need it more than most to stay in the pink. Keep it off a carpet if you can and away from radiators or heaters and you'll have quite a piano. Good luck.

Subject: Re: 1977 Steinway
From: Christi
To: David Burton
Date Posted: Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 16:22:10 (EDT)
Email Address: bgcandclc@aol.com

Message:
What, in your opinion, is the piano worth? We know it is a great piano and a great buy and are going to buy it. The piano will be partially on a hardwood floor and partially on an area rug. Also a floor vent is nearby, should be try to position it away from that? How often should we have it tuned? I am sorry to be so ignorant, but we are novices at this piano stuff. Thanks to Larry Fine, I am much more educated. We have gotten the name of a really good Steinway dealer in our town that can service the piano. Thanks

Subject: Re: A Survey for all piano players
From: David Burton
To: Noah
Date Posted: Tues, Sep 21, 1999 at 23:14:34 (EDT)
Email Address: dpbmss@aol.com

Message:
OK Noah I'll take a crack at it..... The most difficult piano concerto ever written Probably Busoni's, the pianist would be half dead by the time he got through it. The most difficult piano sonata ever written Possibly Charles Ives' Concord Sonata which I consider a complete bore. The most difficult miscellaneous piece for piano ever written Not sure what this means.... The piano concerto with the best ending That's really a tough one. My first reaction is to say maybe Rachmaninoff's third or even possibly Grieg's. The piano sonata with the best ending Well I guess I'd pick Beethovern's last. The miscellaneous piece with the best ending I don't know. The piano concerto with the worst ending I don't know about this either. The piano sonata with the worst ending Nor this. The miscellaneous piece with the worst ending Or this. The best piano concerto overall That's an easy one, my favorite is Brahms' second. The best piano sonata overall Hummmm... Might be any of the big Beethoven, possibly Liszt's B Minor or hey how about Joseph Haydn's E flat sonate that's a pretty good one. The best miscellaneous piece overall Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of Fawn piano score? The worst piano concerto overall Probably something I have never heard by some modern guy I've never heard of. The worst piano sonata overall Probably similar to above but Ives' comes the closest. The worst miscellaneous piece overall Same as above. The most underappreciated piano concerto (underappreciated in the sense it deserves more praise than it actually gets right now.) Probably something by an Englishman like John Ireland. The most underappreciated piano sonata Charles Griffes' perhaps, a bit weird yes, but has a point. The most underappreciated miscellaneous piece Well how about the original piano version of Elgar's Enigma Variations? It's really cool, especially the Nimrod variation, some of it is really a killer to play. The most overrated piano concerto Liszt's. The most overrated piano sonata Beethoven's Appassionata, never really liked it. The most overrated miscellaneous piece Probably something by Liszt. He could produce lavish great and lavish mediocre by turns. I'd like to hear from other pianists on these.


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